So I was looking through the lynn abbey notes looking for mentions of Raam, and came up with an idea. One that kinda unifies all four of those statements. It's simply that SMs have "living vortices" which allow a connection through the dark lens to the inner planes, thus making possible the granting of elemental magic to templars. They are "extinct" in that they never really existed naturally, but were instead life-shaped creations made by Rajaat. He made one for each of his champions, ths allowing them to empower the elites in their armies as they ravaged the non-human populations of Athas. Then the champions rebelled, with Borys seeming to head it up. In the process of man-handling rajaat (there's mention made that the champions forced rajaat to make borys a dragon in amber enchantress), they or Borys also wrest the secret for life-shaping new living vortices. Suppose some of those who helped overthrow Rajaat weren't champions, and for them were created new vortices, thus making them sorcerer-monarchs. This allows for the creation of new sorcerer-monarchs, provided the current ones have both the dark lens and the pristine tower giving them the means to accomplish the life-shaping process.
As for why Dregoth didn't simply make a new one for his needs, I would posit that he doesn't have the dark lens, despite being something of a life-shaper himself (his dray are essentially life-shaped humans, remember). And/or that it takes a number of powerful beings working together to create a living vortex.
ideas? thoughts?
YOINK!
As for my whole idea, I honestly think it's a very good one. Presumably the athas.org team has to make a final decision on living vortices and templar-empowering abilities by the conclusion of DA (you know . . . ), and I posit that this is an excellent all-around explanation that holds true in all cases where the living vortex idea comes up in official products, as well as keeping the excellent setting tone and feeling lynn abbey's books put forth (especially her accounts of the cleansing wars). I've addressed that they're "extinct," I've made allowances for the creation of new sorcerer-monarchs (atzetuk, for instance), I've left the door open for both Borys making new SMs during the rebellion (kalak, maybe?) as well as granting templar spells being integral to the champion during the wars, and I've unifyied the ideas of living vortices being the source of spells with the idea that it's a link to the dark lens.
As for those who would cry foul and say that there shouldn't be an easy way to grant spell-granting abilities, the requirement of the dark lens and pristine tower in one spot is pretty heavy. Not to mention needing the life-shaping knowledge, and it becomes a pretty epic task. So I'm just offering the idea up, and hopefully more people will like it.
I remember a quote from one of the books in reference to obsidian. It was noted as a tool, and that depending on who was using it, its powers differed. The Dark Lens is at its heart a tool. It can augment magic and psionic powers; however it does not grant access to these powers.
With the aid of the DL, Rajaat became almost godlike. He was able to alter reality, creating a conduit between the elemental and material planes. These conduits came to be known as living vortices, an ethereal, ambiguous, and almost nether like entity that spanned the gap between these planes of existence. Rajaat's minions (SKs) were able to touch the elemental planes, through the Dark Lens. The Dark Lens is what anchors in the vortices grasp on the material plane.
When a SK imparts power to his templars it is pulled from the elemental plane, via the vortices, through the Dark Lens, and unto the champion. The SK acts almost like flood gates. He/she grants only what is allowed for that servant. Any other requests are denied. This entire process is involuntary on the part of the SK. Although he/she is aware of it, they are not required to make a decision each time access is requested.
In theory these powers are drawn from the DL, however its origin does not lie there.
The only thing that I didn't fully understand was, why could the SKs not use the power themselves?
I always figured the armies of the Champions were able to wield this power at the time of the Cleansing Wars.
It may lay mention to that in one of the books, but I am not sure what is said in the Dragon Kings supplement. I honestly don't remember much, it has been too long since I read through this stuff. (Although I am revisiting the novels once again).
I always figured the armies of the Champions were able to wield this power at the time of the Cleansing Wars.
Yeah, thats the way I always played it out in my campaign. I subscribe to the belief of that Rajaat had brought the SK to the first level of the dragon metamorphosis when he made them Champions. It wasn't till hundreds of years later that Borys and Dregoth had truly realized what their former master had done to them.
However I do believe that its documented that the LV's were bound to the SK's as a by product of them entering the first stage of the metamorphosis.
Yeah, thats the way I always played it out in my campaign. I subscribe to the belief of that Rajaat had brought the SK to the first level of the dragon metamorphosis when he made them Champions. It wasn't till hundreds of years later that Borys and Dregoth had truly realized what their former master had done to them.
However I do believe that its documented that the LV's were bound to the SK's as a by product of them entering the first stage of the metamorphosis.
Yeah thats pretty much exactly the way I recall it. IMO there was nothing Borys could do that Rajaat could not. I am sure Rajaat being the creator of the lens had a much greater understanding of its workings. After all Rajaat was himself tied to the plane of water... I doubt very seriously that this was a connection he was born with.
The changing of Borys into a fully metamorphised dragon was probably the point where the champions actually understood what they were. Up until that point they knew that they had undergone a transformation, but had no idea of its implications.
Sorry if I worded that wrong.
No, no what I meant was anything Borys could do, Rajaat could do better. I completely agree that no Champion, including Borys could hold a candle to the power of Rajaat.
Sorry if I worded that wrong.
My bad. I read that wrong. I guess I need to break out my hooked on phonics tapes.
I rather like the way things are. :-)Living Vortices are life shaped creations, works for me, I like it. I figure if Rajaat can create the shadow giants, granting them an infusion of shadow, he can create those vortices.. And since the power of a SK is far greater than that of a shadow giant, then I think it makes sense they can handle chanelling so much more energy. And as for them not handling it themselves, well, they are able to siphon the energy and redirect it into others, just not themselves, if they could have it in themselves, they'd just be another wizard / priest combo of minor deity.. personally, I think there are enough of those.
From what I recall, Rajaat did not make the shadow giants. They are a reflection from the black. Shadow giants are all, in truth, halflings. He may have created the plane known as the black (can't remember any reference to its origin), however that does not suggest he has the ability in life shaping.
I don't think there was any reference to Rajaat having any type of capability in life shaping. In fact the only instance I recall that could possibility insinuated as such would be when he was freed from his prison in PP5. However, the description from that book always gave me the impression that the life created from the waters were magical in origin.
I think of Rajaat as the only being to truly understand the planes, space-time continuum, and alternate dimensions. The storm that ensued after his release was yet another rift (much like the black, or that created by the vortices), to some other plane, time, or alternate dimension of Athas. The creatures from the storm where not created (life shaped), more as they were brought to Athas.
Perhaps Rajaat was obsessed with life shaping. His inability to duplicate the process may have been what drove his obsession and the inevitable discovery of magic.
Of course this is just my opinion, the way I interpreted things from the novels / adventure sets. It is interesting to see others take on this type of thing.
As for the SK not being able to use the power that they channel:
I understand the way it works, however I do not understand the reasoning. Why would an SK not be able to use the elemental magics he can grant to his servants? Sure they have other, more powerful sources of magic, however if the wanted to....?
i make the shameless plug that their nature as evolutionary nature-benders may have some quasi reason for this too (i recall the benders had an alliance with evil elemental clerics rather than being them) but in the end your just making reasons for what is. after all, why can't mages use armor? ;)
btw Rajaat did use lifeshaping, after a sort. he took the discovered principles of magic and altered them (DS revised box set) at the base of the jagged cliffs, learning to manipulate & draw life, producing 2 forms of magic.
One more thing does anyone know when the war-bringer was born? at what age he discovered magic? when the cleansing wars actually began?
Yeah I believe so, and it makes sense that way. However, was Rajaat ever able to create Life Shaped items? There may have been mention to it in the Jagged Cliffs suplement, but I am at work and have no way of digging that info up. If there is proof that Rajaat could life shape, it puts a very interesting spin on things.
One more thing does anyone know when the war-bringer was born? at what age he discovered magic? when the cleansing wars actually began?
-11th King's Age (-13,783)-Enemy's Fury
Birth of Rajaat the War-Bringer.
- 81st King's Age (-8,393)-Silt's Agitation
Rajaat arrives at the base of the Jagged Cliffs where he conduits experiments with the powers of life for the next 200 years.
-84th King's Age (-8,162)-King's Defiance
After nearly two centuries of experiments Rajaat discovers the basics of magic, but is nearly killed in the process. After recovering he leaves the Jagged Cliffs and travels to the Pristine Tower to refine the magic process, creating defiling and preserving magic. The Time of Magic begins.
-144th King's Age (-3,542)-Priest's Contemplation
Rajaat sends all but a few of his students away. Using the power of the Pristine Tower and the mysterious Dark Lens Rajaat creates his Champions. Each Champion is ordered to eliminate one specific race from the face of Athas in an effort to bring about the return of the Blue Age. The Cleansing Wars begin.
As far as canon goes, Rajaat never succeeded in learning the secrets of life shaping, but he gave up trying after discovering magic.
As far as canon goes, there's never any mention of rajaat even trying to learn life-shaping...
-81st King's Age (-8,393)-Silt's Agitation
Rajaat arrives at the base of the Jagged Cliffs where he conduits experiments with the powers of life for the next 200 years.
This line would seem to indicate that Rajaat was trying to preform some sort of life-shaping to me. Seems pretty cut and dry IMO.
More likely than not, he was initially trying to do something about his own appearance, which lead to a number of tangents and wound up giving him a lot of insight into the means and process of the rebirth.
I agree that it may not be as cut and dry as I first stated. However, I don't feel that Rajaat was trying to improve his appearance. I would think he came to terms (more or less) with that long ago. I don't picture Rajaat being so vain as to care about his appearance at this point in his life.
As far as canon goes, there's never any mention of rajaat even trying to learn life-shaping. As far as canon goes, rajaat does not have complete understanding of the planes, as per the dead lands. as far as good flavor goes, rajaat life-shaped each of his champions in the pristene tower when he created them (rise and fall). As far as canon goes, dregoth's creation of the dray is a matter of toying with life-shaping and stumbling onto a method that worked.
In regards to Rajaat using the Pristine Tower and Dregoth using life shaping techniques to create the Dray:
Everything in RafoaDK was Hamanu's interpretation. A story told in is words more or less. And there are several areas in which the story contradicts itself as a result. He is fickle in his immortality and he tells things as he perceived them at the time.
True Rajaat altered each of his would-be champions from what they were previously, however there is no reason to believe it was done through life-shaping. I like to think that Rajaat had command or at least extensive knowledge of the planes for a couple of reasons. A. he had the time to learn, and in developing magic he would have come across means to cross the planes. B. It accounts for his ties to water, the black, the hollow, and the vortices.
Dregoth and the metamorphosis of his followers is much the same way. Magical experiments with a permanent end result, deriving from the school of alteration. Subscribing to the notion of Rajaat having the ability/knowledge to life-shape is one thing, but I have a very hard time buying into Dregoth's proficiency. Magic and Life-shaping may often times yield the same result (or similar), however the means is much different.
As for the Vortices: My main problem with making them life shaped items is their non-existence (at least in any tangible form) on the material plane. Wasn't there an Illustration in the Dragon Kings supplement showing their connection the prime material and elemental planes?
Here's something more: The living vortices could have originally been envisioned in the blue age as a weapon. Fire elemental clerics had allied with the nature-benders against the life-shapers. Perhaps one side or the other came up with the idea for living vortices as a means of creating elite warriors in their wars. Rajaat eventually discovered the process and applied it to his champions. Just because a vortex doesn't have a physical body does not mean it cannot be life-shaped. We're talking about little mini-people who sucked the energy out of their sun to fuel their projects: it's not an unreasonable stretch to claim that they can life-shape a metaphysical creature that breaches planal boundaries. And don't say that what I just said doesn't fly: just because the end result of a vortex is metaphysical does not mean its creation cannot be based in the phyical realm of life-shaping. The things are not un-moved movers, nor do they need to be.
Here's something more: The living vortices could have originally been envisioned in the blue age as a weapon.
I like the idea of that the halflings of the Blue Age made the LVs (for whatever purpose) and that when Rajaat made his Champions they were bonded to exsisting ones (by accident or by design) vs that he made brand new ones from scratch.
Both ideas have thier loop-holes, and both could be fleshed out more substantially. Either way, in the end, the differences are minimal. I do not recall any reference made to Dregoth and life-shaping, but that is no suprise. I have not read through much of this material for sometime.
In regards to Rajaat being of limited knowledge on planar traval, etc. (IMO) Although he held a wealth of knowledge, even by the measure of todays scholars, he was not without folly... hence the Deadlands.
I definately think that this is not a crazy idea for Dark Sun. However, it is my own personal take that Rajaat was not able to fully do what the life-shapers did. He was only able to develop a inferior process (in his mind) called magic. It was clearly inferior because this magic would exacerbate the brown tide effects, even though its power could ultimately reshape the land in a much more powerful way than the life shapers could have imagined. So, he put forth a bold plan to develop sorcerers to return the world back to how it began through the following steps:
- Develop a magic source that didn't take from the ground
- Have these sorcerers wipe out all inferior races
- Give these sorcerers' followers the powerful weapon of magic in the shape of divine energies
To do task #3 he was able to magically tie normal elemental vorticies together into super elemental vorticies. His process of creating champions was intertwined with this tapping of elemental vorticies. Of course this requried massive amounts of energy, and thus the dark lens was used. And these super vorticies were / are so powerful that they appear to sages as living entities, much like super-powerful elemental lords.
These living vorticies are attached to the champion's spirit, not their physical bodies. So when Kalak died (for instance), his spirit went to the gray. He's gone, and once his spirit is absorbed, the elemental vorticies will also disolve with him. However, with Dregoth, his spirit still lives in the material plane. In an undead state, yes, but still its there. So his living vortex is still able to power those who are his followers.
At least that's how I view it. I have many off beat ideas, though. I am, however, more than willing to entertian holes that might be found in this line of reasoning.