As i look back at the books we've gotten so far, i see that they've become exponentially better as they've gone along, from the paltry DLCS to the amazing WotL. But i've noticed a disturbing trend- the books don't actually show the campaign setting as it is, but rather show a distorted snapshot of a time period that never existed.
The DLCS shows a dragonlance caught in the blink of an eye. Overlords are alive, Mina isn't chemoshian though it's slyly insinuated, titans exist, and other such discrepancies fill the book. A DM who wants to play in the most current era of DL would pick it up and find himself dissapointed. The AoM update only slightly alleviates this issue, and exaserbates it in other regards.
Similarly, the ToHS book is incomplete, missing an entire tower (!!) that was put into the appendix of A&A, released the same month.
What is the problem? Spoilers. The dragonlance line is being treated as novel supplements, and as such, is avoiding spoilers. This is a problem, because DMs need more information than novel readers. Had the DLCS come out and straight up said that X overlords were dead, the brutes set up camp in the plains of dust, the minotaurs were invading, and other storylines were established, the novels could still go and fill in the details, while allowing DMs to run a dragonlance game without having to play catch up to the novels.
DL gaming needs to be ahead of DL novels. Yes, the key of destiny is concurrant with the books, but we really aren't told when. The events in that module series are obvious, and leading to a conclusion which will eventually have to be mentioned in the novels, given how important it will be, but this is another handicap. They're going about it the wrong way.
What i'm trying to say is this- Dragonlance, even with a new module series, is not a game setting. It is a novel setting with periodic coffee table books that help flesh it out. It needs to change to really be allowed to grow as a game. The storyline needs to gel into a relatively stable situation before this can happen. Right now, there are a lot of major arcs being developed, and a lot of potential for gaming, but until the dust has cleared, it won't work. DL gaming must have the future open.
A&A changed a lot of things in the world which won't be reflected in the game material- the new tower, the beloved. These are being revealed in appendices in the novels. This is a mistake. No gamer brings novels to the table. I'd rather see ToHS and HOotS delayed until they can give us all the information than have a handicapped book brought out.
We must not fear spoilers. Game books are not novels. A game book without all the information is useless as a gamebook. For a modern example, in the updated FRCS, they brought back the diety Bane, who had died in a long story arc years ago. Later on they explained how this came to be, but the campaign setting just assumed that it was so and went on. Had the DLCS followed this example, we would have been given a setting book that actually described the setting post overlords and drastic story changes, as opposed to the book we got.
I just finished the third Linsha novel, an absolutly excellent end to a great trilogy. I won't spoil it, but Mary Herbert sets the example for how to transition from the fifth to the modern age without completely cutting one off. Her story smoothly ended some long standing arcs while seeding many more interesting ones, and maintained respect for the old as well as the new. I never got the feeling that the fifth age was being thrown out completely in favor of something new, and never felt dissatisfied with how events proceeded. Indeed, for the first time in years, i look forwards to the future of DL with something other than a dead feeling in my stomach, dread at what will be happening next.
WotL was a fantastic book, incorporating modern and historical DL data and bringing the foundation of the setting to a glorious updated look. I can only hope that the current setting gets the same amount of reverence and lavish detail as well.
Talinthas
DL fan 13 years and counting
oh, and, whats A&A?
oh, and, whats A&A?
Amber and Ashes.
I feel that it would be helpful to this discussion to see Jamie's point of view, which he posted on the mailing list. I'll copy and paste below (hope you don't mind, Jamie).
Tal,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You've revealed one of the most difficult
parts of working on games while the novels are developed. I honestly feel
there is better synergy between the books and games since DLs 1-14... But
that being said, both timing and licensing issues prevent us from giving
everyone what they want, when they want.
As for books "leading the way" and presenting information before the novels,
that will almost never happen. The terms we work under specifically state
that the novel line leads the way for Dragonlance, and our game products
must follow. We've been given some great opportunities to strike out on our
own and make things happen, specifically in the Age of Mortals adventure
series (starting with KEY OF DESTINY)--but these are the exception, not the
rule.
We'll continue to improve on the areas that we can, but there are some
elements that just reflect the nature of the business. In an alternate
universe things might be different, in a world where TSR still existed here
in Lake Geneva with the DL book and game departments under one roof--but
then again, maybe not!
** Jamie
Someone inform the novel "team" that every new book that comes out doesnt need to change Krynn in some way. *thats* the problem.. nothing else. If only one or two things came out every once in awhile, no one would complain Age of Mortals and the DLCS are obsolete. Everyone realizes that the world moves on. Its when every single novel that comes out changes Dragonlance in a drastic way, that we start to become fed up and wonder hwy we even buy ythe gaming materials if they wont even adresss the newest state of the world.
It is annoying as hell to buy a great product like the ToHS, and not have it "up to date". Stop friggin changing thngs. Detal small "islands" of culture and have fun with it, instead of chaning Krynn everytime you need to print a book.
One thing that I find interesting that I never expected is a sort of "backlash" against the game product line because of the Appendix in Amber & Ashes. Towers was written a long time before the new novel, and regardless we wouldn't have been able to spoil such an important detail in an upcoming book product by including it in a game book that released earlier. (Please remember that Towers was supposed to hit the shelves quite a bit earlier than Amber & Ashes even if it did not ultimately work out that way.)
The Tower of the Blood Sea is a very cool place, but even its status in Amber & Ashes is incomplete. It is a place in transition, and will most likely not be the same at the end of the trilogy--or perhaps even the next novel! So any entry in the Towers of High Sorcery book would have ultimately been insufficient in any way.
We're always sorry to hear we've disappointed any of the fans, but we're working hard! I hope you enjoy the products we create.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
The Chronicles were a good book to begin the world. With a nice follow up of Legends. And then you started seeing books about early times, which some had huge events, and others actually had good stories about remote regions. These books helped define and characterize the people we grew to love from the Chronicles/Legends.
Then we got slapped across the face with Dragons of Summer Flame, magic now gone. No.. new magic now. Along came Dragon Overlords. Then War of Souls, magic is back again. Tarmak invasion, Minotaur Invasion. Then the reforming of the WoHS(hatred toward the new(old) use of sorcery, that was just fine when the gods were gone), along with a new(old) Tower. The Rise of Solamnia is beginning in a month. etc etc etc. Now I understand some people dont see these as world shattering, but the affect Krynn in huge ways and makes things seem missing from books that dont detail them. As Tal said, no one brings novels to the gaming table.
Do I want the world to stay stagnant? No.. but I'd like to see some of the authors write some novels that arent making changes. Can people detail the world and show struggle without creating things left and right? God I hope so... The fact that the novels and gaming materials are usually well written and very good books is moot... As I said the ToHS is a great book, but we're left feeling lacking when you learn theres a great new Tower, that isnt in the book thats supposed to detail the Towers! I'd hate to see a Solamnic book that mysteriously leaves out the High Clerist Tower or Knights of the Crown or etc.
Unfortunately what would be nice, is something to replace the Age of Mortals. Sort of a Players Guide to Krynn. But the backlash from others on the board have made that seem like it wont happen. As I said before, I realize that worlds change. Thats fine. Nothing stays the same. Its the amount of change in a period of what 100+ years since War of the Lance?
Sometimes I look at the 5th age novels and my SAGA stuff and sigh. Because I know just how much potential was lost, and I'm one of them that didnt like it nearly as much as the before DoSF and the after of WoS. But I highly doubt we will see any game material or novels detailing that time period again, and I find that sad. Because now it will be regulated to a period that everyone ignores and groans about when brought up. Everyone will gloss over that period. Even before the 5th age, there were new novels detailing earlier ages and people were clamoring for gaming material. I'm sure we will see more books detailing older ages, and this period of time will lay forgotten. At one time, I've said that I wanted that. Now I'm not so sure...
As i've said, the gaming materials coming out are great. Rich with great material and almost always make most people happy. What can we do about the changes that keep occurring on a constant basis? Probably nothing. As was stated, the novels lead the way and the authors will probably still go on believing they cant sell novels unless they impact the world. So we as a gaming community will have to suck it up, buy the novels and such, and keep records of what exactly is going on. Maybe I should start using sticky notes in my DLCS and Age of Mortals.
I'm dead sure there will be people who will see all this as whining. And pretty much I'm not sure how to refute it. If wanting your books to be pretty current with what is going on in the world as whining, then I'm guilty and will accept the label. As I said several times I think, changes happen. No world stays the same.. but maybe limit things a little?
DragonLance needs to become a role playing game again, instead of some kind of tragic hack'n'slash world with multiple boring gods babysitting the characters' every action. There needs to be less world-changing novels I agree. The setting is way too tragic, there is always a tragedy waiting to happen.Where are the books that detail the world ? No I don't want another DLCS, or ANOTHER Age of Mortals accessory. I already have these. I want quality online articles, tons of fluff, and online hooks. Like Eberron.
~~~
Making new, pretty, hardback books every two years will not help DragonLance.
Well, I personally don't see that being the case at all. It depends on how much hand-holding you need for it to become the role-playing intensive setting you currently don't think it is.
Cheers,
Cam
Frankly, if the novels are going to be top dog, the past is where Sovereign Press should focus their press. When the novels define the new campaign world, and where exactly it is going, then it will be time to detail the world in game books. Seen in that light, the biggest problem was that AoM and the DLCS were brought out far too soon.
So I'm content to wait quite patiently with my game books until the novel writers have contributed something that they all like. I can wait until Rise of Solamnia trilogy is finished for my Knight's Sourcebook. I can wait until we do something interesting 5th Age magic for books about the mystics and sorcerers. I'm content to wait until the blood stops flowing in the various territorial wars (and for the Taladas trilogy) before we get an Atlas of Krynn.
On the subject of Dragonlance being a Hack N Slash world: everyone knows that no matter what the setting, it's the players and DM who make the campaign. If the people participating in the campaign make it hack n slash, that's what it'll be. My games have always had a balance of hacking and role-playing and I've never had a problem with there being too much fighting. I encourage role-playing in my game and my players are happy to go along with it. I think if my players didn't work so well together, my campaigns would not run nearly so smoothly. In fact, sometimes they work TOO WELL together and I have to spoil some of their strategizing in order to make things a little less easy. All-in-all it's how you play the game that makes the experience. If you are unhappy with the way your game plays, perhaps you should try to change the focus. As a DM I include XP incentives for solving problems or encounters with strategy and diplomacy. As far as being a player in such a game, I would suggest trying to take more of a leading role and changing the focus of your encounters. Otherwise, quit that game and find another.
--Tamora Amberleaf
You say you can wait for the knighthood book to come out until after the trilogy? Do you realize just how long that will be? The first book comes out in march. That means in about 2 1/2 years or so the trilogy will be done. If they waited each time, a lot of things will take forever to get done. If you do this for each trilogy..how long will we wait to get the books we long so much for?
The blood will never stop "flowing". Thats my whole point. When these novels are finished, the authors will be writing all new novels that will change the world in even more various ways. You look at this as if its a one time thing, which it isnt. These authors have been doing this for years, and I see no end to it. It seems to many of them think there needs to be new and changing things to happen in their novels to sell them. They cant detail already existing things and write good stories.
All you advocate.. is more waiting upon waiting. And then we will never see anything done because the constant changes will never end. If authors were just willing to help shape the already existing world and not be almost in a competition for who can make the biggest impact, than we would have periods of rest that can be broken up by changes in the world. Instead we have constant motion, with each new novel making something else obsolete. Maybe not whole books, but passages in these books. And its a shame.
ferratus, maybe you are right. Maybe the past is where the future of Dragonlance is. And to me... thats sad. The past should be an option, not the default or "best"
These authors have been doing this for years, and I see no end to it. It seems to many of them think there needs to be new and changing things to happen in their novels to sell them. They cant detail already existing things and write good stories.
I agree with True_Blue here(pertaining to the statement above). Every little thing is some kind of war, or something that affects the entire world. It is one Heroes of the Lance-style adventure after another. Every single adventure cannot be LoTR-like, and it seems that is what DragonLance is trying to do.
ferratus, thats the problem though.. there never is a time when things are "over". SP waited for Wizards Conclave to be over to make ToHS. If they waited until after A&A trilogy is over, then something else new would come along. There *is* no downtime.
Not now, but these are lingering aftershocks of the 5th Age. The fact that there are two kinds of magic around, for example, demands an explanation and redress. Two missing gods likewise demands resolution. The completely inconsistent way the Knights of Solamnia have been portrayed so that we have no confidence in their heroic valour anymore. The sudden rise and demise of the dragon overlords. There is a lot of stuff to fix and power vacuums to fill.
Plus, the novel department is large and in charge, not Sovereign Press. Understandably, as much as we game players dislike it, the novel writers want to be noticed by writing a big story. They want to leave their stamp on this shared world if they are going to participate in it at all. Unless the editor is willing to restrict the authors, and why would they? The big stories sell best right? My favourites recently were the Ergoth and Barbarian trilogies, but the buzz seems to be behind the Minotaur Trilogy and Amber and Ashes.
You say you can wait for the knighthood book to come out until after the trilogy? Do you realize just how long that will be? The first book comes out in march. That means in about 2 1/2 years or so the trilogy will be done.
Yeah, I realize. However, what is the point of buying the Knights Sourcebook before it? If there is going to be a shakeup in the way knightly politics work, what role they play in Solamnia itself, who controls the hiearchy etc. then obviously I'd rather have this resolved before getting a sourcebook that is going to detail these very things.
If they waited each time, a lot of things will take forever to get done. If you do this for each trilogy..how long will we wait to get the books we long so much for?
Well... perhaps we need to also look at it from another perspective. Perhaps the game line shouldn't be worrying about the broad comprehensive sourcebooks at this time. I could use another "Book of Lairs" for example, which would be impervious to novel world-tampering. Some more solid brass tacks game products in soft cover.
If authors were just willing to help shape the already existing world and not be almost in a competition for who can make the biggest impact, than we would have periods of rest that can be broken up by changes in the world. Instead we have constant motion, with each new novel making something else obsolete. Maybe not whole books, but passages in these books. And its a shame.
Well definately there is something to that, especially in light of recent events. For example, the Minotaur trilogy. Why invade Silvanesti? Why not invade Saifhum a much closer and more logical target? It is obviously because we've had the most experience with Silvanesti and thus would care more or something. Not a logic I would buy, given people are largely interested in the Minotaur trilogy for the minotaur politics. The conquered peoples can exist in Saifhum just as well as they could in Silvanesti.
How about the Missing City for another example? It was obliterated in favour of the Tarmak kingdom. Now I love the brutes, don't get me wrong, but I loved the Missing City too. If only they would have conquered the Ogrelands instead, then I'd get to have both. The main reason I miss the Missing City was that it was something unique, namely an adventurer run city, from which you could strike at the Minotaurs, the Ogres, Sable, and all the other big bad threats. Now you have to cross hostile territory to strike at hostile territory. Plus the Missing City could host arctic adventures (Icewall), Forest adventures (Silvanesti), Swamp Adventures (Sable) Ocean adventures (Courrain Ocean), Desert Adventures (The Plains of Dust) and ancient mountain ruins (Khalkhists), all within a few days ride.
Ferratus, maybe you are right. Maybe the past is where the future of Dragonlance is. And to me... thats sad. The past should be an option, not the default or "best"
Well, to do that you'd have to let the game world call the shots. I also think that there would have been more constraints on novel writers if the DLCS would have given a more comprehensive view of the campaign world. As a WotC product, the novels would have had to be in compliance with it. For the most part they are, especially since the other complaint in regards to the novel line is that they haven't progressed beyond the War of Souls yet.
The Tower of the Blood Sea is a very cool place, but even its status in Amber & Ashes is incomplete. It is a place in transition, and will most likely not be the same at the end of the trilogy--or perhaps even the next novel! So any entry in the Towers of High Sorcery book would have ultimately been insufficient in any way.
I think the problem ends up being that we had hoped that we'd get balance between the game material and the novels.
And, not surprisingly, it hasn't worked out that way.
However, I believe it was mentioned elsewhere - in FR, events are given to have occured in the game material, and then fleshed out in the books.
Does this spoil anything? I say no - we may be given a result in the game material, but it is still a matter of "how you get there" that can be explored in the novels.
Novel readers only wouldn't know anyways, and people using the game material are still allowed to "find their own way" regardless.
And there should NOT be anything wrong with this. Yet, the attitude has already been taken that it would be wrong.
However, I believe it was mentioned elsewhere - in FR, events are given to have occured in the game material, and then fleshed out in the books.
Does this spoil anything? I say no - we may be given a result in the game material, but it is still a matter of "how you get there" that can be explored in the novels.
Forgotten Realms has the advantage of being a property in which games and books are developed in-house by the same company. Because Dragonlance games are licensed, we are required to follow where the novels lead us. Having Margaret has allowed us to shake up that notion a bit, but ultimately we cannot "spoil" things with game product by the very nature of our agreement.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Forgotten Realms has the advantage of being a property in which games and books are developed in-house by the same company. Because Dragonlance games are licensed, we are required to follow where the novels lead us. Having Margaret has allowed us to shake up that notion a bit, but ultimately we cannot "spoil" things with game product by the very nature of our agreement.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
I think WotC is trying to hold SP down then. Not trying to make this into a consipericey theroy or anything but if they are saying that you can't give your players all the information they need then they are basically sabatoge you. How long till you can renegotiate that contract?
GCS
The main problem isnt that SP can't spoil things. Its the fact that every single friggin novel seems to be competing with the others on how much they can change in the world. Thats the problem. If we only had one or two changes every once in awhile, no one would care that one or two passages need to be changed. Everything that has happened in the novels has made whole sections pretty much useless in the DLCS and Age of Mortals. That is very annoying.
Its the novel writers who are in the wrong. If they would just write about already established cultures and actually have good stories, we wouldnt have any problems.
In my cynic views, I picture the novel team as one of two ways. 1) "Hey good job making that last book and how you shook up Krynn, now watch what I do in mine".. over and over again. 2) "Here's a section of the world, you get this section, you over there get this other one, etc".. "No you dont need to talk with eachother or read the Gaming materials.. just make something happen" So in essense, you get a bunch of people making changes in different parts of the world, without even being able to blend the books together. About the only thing the newer books have in common, is they are trying to reference the War of the Souls in some way, and think thats enough.
If we would get nice stories that dont *change* anything, it wouldnt be such a big deal. There are lots of stories just waiting to happen. Have a few about adventurues.. not necessarily *Heroes*. We dont need the Companions in every Trilogy that is written. The world or countries dont need to be in peril every single novel.
This would let use have that "period of rest" in between changes. Again I'll restate, I'm not opposed to change. No one wants a stagnant world. But how about little peices here and there where we can rest.
I see the 5th age(before WoS) as just chalk full of loose ends. There are so many things that could have been done with it. Its so unfortunate. Now everyone is just in a hurry to patch up and go back to the old way of everything. Which isnt so bad, but the books we own will basically be obsolete because they will have *no* reference to how things are currently. Basically, the DLCS is very quickly turning into a twin of the Age of Mortals. Its not current..which makes it even harder for people getting into Dragonlance to have a "current" campaign. And how long has it been out.. 1 1/2 years? Thats friggin sad. Even FR doesnt change that much.
I honestly think WotC are a bunch of tools. They slow down the release dates of SP products with all of their edits. They encourage the writers they contract for Dragonlance novels to create world affecting stories everytime ink hits paper, AND they have a total disregard towards having the novels, much less the gaming material synch up in any fashion what-so-ever. This may sound like a conspiracy theory, but is there any other way to look at it? Besides the 'business decision' garbage? I think they see DL as a cash cow that they will milk until it dries up and blows away with a moderate wind, once they've ****** off enough people, then they'll just lock the world away with all the other campaigns in some dank, musty closet somewhere. And then create more worlds, while defending the decision to keep the established worlds under lock and key with the idea that they want to simplify D&D and limit the choices. But look at FR and Eberron, and whatever other world we feel like creating. Blah. Sorry for the rant, this stuff has been building up, and I needed to vent.
I honestly think WotC are a bunch of tools. They slow down the release dates of SP products with all of their edits. They encourage the writers they contract for Dragonlance novels to create world affecting stories everytime ink hits paper, AND they have a total disregard towards having the novels, much less the gaming material synch up in any fashion what-so-ever. This may sound like a conspiracy theory, but is there any other way to look at it? Besides the 'business decision' garbage? I think they see DL as a cash cow that they will milk until it dries up and blows away with a moderate wind, once they've ****** off enough people, then they'll just lock the world away with all the other campaigns in some dank, musty closet somewhere.
*Shakes head*
So I guess SP, and the DragonLance novel authors themselves, have absolutely nothing to do with the myriad delays of gaming products, and the heavily used "change-the-world in one book(or three)/save-the-world" novel(s) storyline(s) ?
I suppose it is ALL WoTC's fault ? You cannot seriously hope to have the consumers fall for that theory.
~~~
I appreciate the various shows of support, but I was just trying to explain the nature of our deal. The terms of our agreement with Wizards was mutually reached by both parties. Business often gets in the way of ideal entertainment, unfortunately, but it's much better than the alternative--no Dragonlance game product at all. When I compare Age of Mortals and War of the Lance, I feel that we have come a long way in terms of content and presentation. The future holds even better stuff in store.
We recognize many of the problems addressed here, and we'll work on those that we can as we go along.
Keep your eyes on DL.com for previews coming soon on the Map Pouch!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign press, Inc.
*Shakes head*
So I guess SP, and the DragonLance novel authors themselves, have absolutely nothing to do with the myriad delays of gaming products, and the heavily used "change-the-world in one book(or three)/save-the-world" novel(s) storyline(s) ?
I suppose it is ALL WoTC's fault ? You cannot seriously hope to have the consumers fall for that theory.
~~~
Well, Jamie himself said the stipulations behind their contract say that the gaming material cannot and will not reveal anything that is covered by the novels which are WotC controlled, NOT SP (for proof of this, take any novel released in recent years, and you'll see the WotC logo on it, NOT SP or TSR). That having been said, the novel writers, when they are writing NOVELS for DL, are in the direct employ of WotC, ergo, yes, WotC takes credit for novels, and the disregard for keeping everything synched up both storywise and continuitywise.
As for products released under the SP name, until I have evidence to the contrary, I will not lay blame wholly on SP's collective heads. They are part of the problem, but not the sum totality of it. I seem to recall instances (read: posts on forums from SP employees) where they said the adventure was basically done, but had to get approval from WotC before they could go to press with it, thereby extending the release dates of different products. If you have concrete evidence that vindicates WotC of their involvement in delinquent products, then I recind my comment. Until then, my point, thought and most importantly, opinion stands. Everyone (consumers) is entitled to their own opinion, this is the one I subscribe to, and don't pretend to dictate to others what they should or should not believe. Your inference that that is what I am doing is incorrect.
2. We received several different waiting-for-approval dates(dates when it was said to have been handed over to WoTC) with KoD. Not that I care now, since I am starting my Eberron campaign, but that was(and is) the case.
3. Your claim that WoTC is somehow screwing up the novels has no basis. I suppose WoTC told Margaret Weis to base Atta, of Amber & Ashes, off of her dog Tess as well ? WoTC has nothing to do with writing DL novels, they only publish them.
Moderators: Please pardon my reference to the DL novels, but I only did so to show how baseless the alternate posters' accusation was.
~~~
1. The same type of DL novels were being written when TSR owned DL. Change-the-world, boring characters(not all, but some), overdramatic, etc.
But not with the frequency with which they are being released these days under the WotC banner, which I believe was part of what TrueBlue was saying, and I agree with. Then again, your the same person who has repeatedly complained about the content of KoD, because they didn't implicitly spell out every little detail for you, and do all the thinking for you as a DM. If you feel the world is overdramatic, stop complaining about it. Step up, and address it in your campaign group. DL was built on drama, and romantic ideals. If you have a problem with it, then I implore you, go to Eberron, the campaign you have such an affinity for, and leave DL behind. We won't have to listen to you anymore, which would really be a pleasant experience. I'm sure I'm not alone in this sentiment, considering all the people you've incited flame wars and complaining rants with since joining these forums.
2. We received several different waiting-for-approval dates(dates when it was said to have been handed over to WoTC) with KoD. Not that I care now, since I am starting my Eberron campaign, but that was(and is) the case.
Probably because all necessary 'edits' from WotC will be not be covered in one round of submissions to them from SP. Things just don't go that smoothly.
3. Your claim that WoTC is somehow screwing up the novels has no basis. I suppose WoTC told Margaret Weis to base Atta, of Amber & Ashes, off of her dog Tess as well ? WoTC has nothing to do with writing DL novels, they only publish them.
The characters in an author's story are under the artistic license of the author writing about them. Under the WotC banner, the characters and storylines then become intellectual property of WotC. If WotC owns the rights and priviledges to DL material, and they are not to be held responsible for the materials, then I pose to you the question, who IS responsible? SP isn't, they don't own any rights what-so-ever to the novels. The authors, while they write the stories, are doing so under WotC's name. WotC approves author stories and releases, and cuts checks to those authors for their work. Quality assurance should be something they should concern themselves unless they are wont to just give out checks on a whim. If quality assurance is important, then having novel stories that don't synch up is the sole responsibility of WotC. If QA is not important to WotC, then they are just cutting checks left and right with no regard to their intellectual property, which is also a bad thing. Your making accusations. I pose to you the question if WotC owns all rights and publishing priviledges to the novels, and are NOT accountable for those stories (which require approval none the less) then who DOES take responsibility? Until you can answer that question, your statement and stance on the argument holds no more proverbial water than my own, since we're debating the semantics of opinion.
Moderators: Please pardon my reference to the DL novels, but I only did so to show how baseless the alternate posters' accusation was.
No more baseless than your own accusation. After all, it's my OPINION, and opinions are like butts, everyone has one. You seem to have a serious issue with any opinion that isn't yours, which is a narrow vision to have and is sad. Probably why your always a forum troll, dredging up flame wars whenever you can. So so sad dude. Really. To the moderators, I'm sorry you have to listen to this all this drivel.
But not with the frequency with which they are being released these days under the WotC banner, which I believe was part of what TrueBlue was saying, and I agree with.
Many of the novels that are "released these days under the WoTC banner" are no more than re-prints from previous releases.
Then again, your the same person who has repeatedly complained about the content of KoD,
Many complained about the content of KoD before I did(complaints such as the delays, wrong moon cycles, whole portions of text missing, etc).
because they didn't implicitly spell out every little detail for you, and do all the thinking for you as a DM.
You are incorrect. My statement dealt specifically with the lack of role playing content in KoD.
If you feel the world is overdramatic, stop complaining about it. Step up, and address it in your campaign group.
"Addressing it in my campaign group" will not change the overly "dramatic, change-the-world-style" novel lines that consistently affect the campaign setting. In this very thread it has been noted that myriad DL novels consistently alter the world of Krynn drastically in some way or another. It has also been noted that said alterations subsequently have an affect, albeit a negative one, on the DL gaming products. So "stepping up, and addressing it in my group" would simply be to disregard a great portion of what makes DragonLance what it is.
The "game" follows the "novels" in DL not the other way around, which is the way it should be(With the novels following the game). Read the new Eberron novel, City of Towers, and you will see what I am talking about.
DL was built on drama, and romantic ideals. If you have a problem with it, then I implore you, go to Eberron, the campaign you have such an affinity for, and leave DL behind. We won't have to listen to you anymore, which would really be a pleasant experience. I'm sure I'm not alone in this sentiment, considering all the people you've incited flame wars and complaining rants with since joining these forums.
You seem to be taking this personal since DL is not the only campaign I am running now, and I have also shown a great liking for Eberron. Hopefully you ae not "angered" because I am not a "strict DragonLance fan" ?
Newsflash: Most gamers are not strictly bound by one certain setting. Many gamers move from one setting to another with ease. That is one of the benefits of playing D&D, there are multiple world to be exlored, or you may invent your own.
Also, Do note that comments such as the ones above(made by yourself) are considered offensive on the WoTC boards.
Probably because all necessary 'edits' from WotC will be not be covered in one round of submissions to them from SP. Things just don't go that smoothly.
Know this, a few different dates were given for what was supposedly the first submission to WoTC. The first submission can only happen once, not numerous times. But that is beside the point, since I could care less how long it takes NOW. As many posters have stated, in threads dealing with the delays, I am just preparing to run something else at the time. Why care when it is never going to change IMO ? I just sit back, laugh, and prepare for my Eberron games.
At first Eberron was just a tide-over till SP's production schedule was stepped up, but now after reading City of Towers, I find that I have a great interest in Eberron. The investigative, heavy role-playing format fits my DMing style.
This does not mean I now hate DragonLance, or that I now dislike Cam Banks as a writer; I still think DL is nice, and that C. Banks is an extremely talented writer. I simply favor Eberron because the production schedule, flavor of the game, and the setting itself is up to par IMO.
The characters in an author's story are under the artistic license of the author writing about them. Under the WotC banner, the characters and storylines then become intellectual property of WotC. If WotC owns the rights and priviledges to DL material, and they are not to be held responsible for the materials, then I pose to you the question, who IS responsible? SP isn't, they don't own any rights what-so-ever to the novels. The authors, while they write the stories, are doing so under WotC's name. WotC approves author stories and releases, and cuts checks to those authors for their work. Quality assurance should be something they should concern themselves unless they are wont to just give out checks on a whim. If quality assurance is important, then having novel stories that don't synch up is the sole responsibility of WotC. If QA is not important to WotC, then they are just cutting checks left and right with no regard to their intellectual property, which is also a bad thing. Your making accusations. I pose to you the question if WotC owns all rights and publishing priviledges to the novels, and are NOT accountable for those stories (which require approval none the less) then who DOES take responsibility? Until you can answer that question, your statement and stance on the argument holds no more proverbial water than my own, since we're debating the semantics of opinion.
WoTC did not invent the storylines, characters, plots, etc,.....the authors did. Did a WoTC employee come to Weis's home and say "Make up a character named Atta, based off of your dog Tess ?" I think not.
WoTC did not create these things(storylines, characters, plots, etc), the authors did. WoTC proofreads, and subsequently approves and publishes the author's work.
Also, further discussions of novels, no matter how abstract, will lead to a closing of this thread. Let's leave this one alone.
No more baseless than your own accusation.
I made no accusations on this thread, I simply debunked your accusation.
After all, it's my OPINION, and opinions are like butts, everyone has one.
Very true.
Probably why your always a forum troll, dredging up flame wars whenever you can. So so sad dude. Really. To the moderators, I'm sorry you have to listen to this all this drivel.
I'm sorry I had to read it as well. Just to let you know this qualifies as yet another personal attack. Notice how my post was aimed at your "accusation", not what I thought of "you" as a person ? Try doing the same next time.
~~~
Many of the novels that are "released these days under the WoTC banner" are no more than re-prints from previous releases.
All DL novels these days are printed under the WotC label. My point was (and still is) that if you take all the novels from the start till now, you'll see a trend that there are more world altering stories taking place in greater frequency now than in the past. I have no problem with your disagreeing with that, but do you have evidence to truly debate that in earnest?
Many complained about the content of KoD before I did(complaints such as the delays, wrong moon cycles, whole portions of text missing, etc).
True, people complained about the editing process which was what was the blame for the 8-9 month delay of the campaign book. My point was, your taking complaining to an all new level by saying the adventure is a hack 'n slash fest, with little to no character driven development. (not an attack, but reiterating what you yourself said in other threads). The people of SP, including the authors of the KoD adventure have told you, they provided the basics, it's up to the DM and players to fill in the details, ie roleplaying. You've complained that they didn't provide you the RP. That is what differentiates you from the other complaints on the forum.
You are incorrect. My statement dealt specifically with the lack of role playing content in KoD.
Again, I contend, if there is a lack of role playing content, why not do something about it, instead of complaining? Do you expect the writers of KoD and SoS to take you by the hand on every little issue? The adventure is a guideline, not an instruction manual on DMing. Go with it, and use it to fuel your own ideas. You and I have both complimented Cam and his ability to take the adventure, and spice it up, adding in his own twists and what not, most likely making the RP aspect of his group great in the process. Why not attempt to that as well? As a DM, RP is about 60% your responsibility, 10% the adventure's responsibility, and about 30% belongs to the players (you can present RP opportunities to them, it's their 'role' to go with it, and make the game fun).
"Addressing it in my campaign group" will not change the overly "dramatic, change-the-world-style" novel lines that consistently affect the campaign setting. In this very thread it has been noted that myriad DL novels consistently alter the world of Krynn drastically in some way or another. It has also been noted that said alterations subsequently have an affect, albeit a negative one, on the DL gaming products. So "stepping up, and addressing it in my group" would simply be to disregard a great portion of what makes DragonLance what it is.
I totally agree on the events changing the world, and that bugs me as well. "addressing it in your campaign group" was referring more to your problem with the lack of RP in the adventure. See above.
The "game" follows the "novels" in DL not the other way around, which is the way it should be(With the novels following the game). Read the new Eberron novel, City of Towers, and you will see what I am talking about.
I agree with you on this wholeheartedly on this. I too believe that the novels should follow the game, and not vice versa.
You seem to be taking this personal since DL is not the only campaign I am running now, and I have also shown a great liking for Eberron. Hopefully you ae not "angered" because I am not a "strict DragonLance fan" ?
Not at all. I feel that when people play different campaign worlds, it rounds out their RP experience, and really enriches each subsequent game they play, thereby making them 'better' RPGers. I've played around a dozen odd different games over the past 20 something years.
I am rather disturbed that you willfully seek to start trouble on the forum where none would otherwise exist, and I would contend that that is more a violation of the codes of conduct than anything you've accused me of. It saddens me that everyone here should have to even worry that by posting on a thread here on virtually any topic, that someone like you will lurk in the shadows, waiting to figuratively jump down someone's throat with wild conspiracy theories, labels, cyncism, and sarcasm. We as a community should not have to deal with that IMHO. That was why I encouraged your taking up Eberron, and leaving these forums. Nothing else.
Newsflash: Most gamers are not strictly bound by one certain setting. Many gamers move from one setting to another with ease.
Some of your signature sarcasm...
That is one of the benefits of playing D&D, there are multiple world to be exlored, or you may invent your own.
"Invent your own"- words to live by. Not enough RP in your DL campaign? Do something about it. Complaining isn't going to get it done.
Also, Do note that comments such as the ones above(made by yourself) are considered offensive on the WoTC boards.
Yes, personal attacks are frowned upon. If one were to look at the post history between the 2 of us, I think the moderators would see much, much more borderline code of conduct violations by you than by me. Spamming moderators with your *reports thread* you did every other thread for awhile there. Baiting people into baseless flame wars on simple things like semantics, and then letting a heated debate degenerate into the semantics of argument itself and not the thread at hand. Much the way this is starting to degenerate into.
You cannot seriously hope to have the consumers fall for that theory
That, to me, is an accusation. I never implied anyone subscribe to any 'theories', I just stated my opinion. If making accusations is a violation of the codes of conduct, then you in my estimation are just, if not more guilty than I.
What does this have to do with the portion of my post that you are responding to ? This is in the wrong place.
"We received several different waiting-for-approval dates(dates when it was said to have been handed over to WoTC) with KoD"- it was relevant. My point was, edits aren't typically completed with one round. It takes several rounds, hence the "waiting-for-approval" dates. WotC were the ones doing the approving, so they were part of the problem of delinquent products. My comment is thereby relevant to both this discussion, and the thread.
WoTC did not invent the storylines, characters, plots, etc,.....the authors did. Did a WoTC employee come to Weis's home and say "Make up a character named Atta, based off of your dog Tess ?" I think not.
Is your problem with Atta or the storylines? You've brought up Atta twice now.
My point is accountability. WotC approves stories by authors before they go to print. Someone, somewhere at WotC has to approve manuscripts and novel samples before the authors are given the proverbial green light to write their novel. If approval is required, then that suggests to me that QA should be part of that approval process. QA would keep things like storylines that contradict each other, or too many world affecting events at once in check.WoTC did not create these things(storylines, characters, plots, etc), the authors did. WoTC proofreads, and subsequently approves and publishes the author's work.
Okay, it sounds it like we're on the same page here now. Don't you think WotC should step up, while in the midst of the approval process and say something like "ya know, the world here has 10 (exag) different invading hordes, 2-4 evil gods each with plans for death and conquest, a plague of undead vampires, death and carnage wreaked by freakishly giant dragons for nearly half a century. The only 2 organizations that could potentially fight any of this have been all but crushed (KoS and WoHS). Maybe should reign in some of the dark stuff a bit." Krynn is kinda becoming a post apocalyptic world that they keep dropping nukes on anyway. At least that's the feel I'm getting from it. Anywho, it sounds like you think the responsibility lies with the authors, and I contend that the publishers should take a good majority of the flak for the state of things, so we're arguing on shades of gray, well, kinda.
Also, further discussions of novels, no matter how abstract, will lead to a closing of this thread. Let's leave this one alone.
Agreed
I made no accusations on this thread, I simple debunked yours.
"You cannot seriously hope to have the consumers fall for that theory"- this to me is an accusation. Especially since I never implied anyone should "fall for a theory". I even said as much when I said "Sorry for the rant, this stuff has been building up, and I needed to vent."- ergo a rant fest, and not a declaration that people should rally behind me.
I'm sorry I had to read it as well. Just to let you know this qualifies as yet another personal attack. Notice how my post was aimed at your accusation, not what I thought of you as a person ? Try doing the same next time.
"You cannot seriously hope to have the consumers fall for that theory"- accusation. Pot calling the kettle black? I think so.
"You cannot seriously hope to have the consumers fall for that theory"- accusation. Pot calling the kettle black? I think so.
Actualy, for an outside view, it's the pot calling the pot black, though there isn't so much snap to that. :D
Actualy, for an outside view, it's the pot calling the pot black, though there isn't so much snap to that. :D
Eh, me and LoI are debating on blame, semantics and most importantly, point of view. In the right light, anything can be construed however you want. I interpreted his post as an accusation of intent, but I can see where yer coming from. :P
I guess I've just witnessed so many attacks on other people from LoI that it came to a head, and I probably took things a touch too far. I've counted myself fortunate that my past posts never spurned the ire of LoI until now, but I guess it was unavoidable, and once it happened, I got bitten by the bug of 'righteous indignation' or whatever you want to call it. No hard feelings to anyone here, LoI included.
Rooks here: Misguided, estranged, hermetic Dragonlance fan. I have many things to say, many things to point out and cry havoc over, but will I?
Is it worth it?
Tal began this with an excellent post. DH and Jamie Chambers came in and provided a thorough backdrop; they educated us, you might say, as to the realities of balancing this strange industry on the hairsbreadth of talent and time.
They - Sov. Press, you see - are jugglers, master acrobats of Public Relations and Keyboard Hammering who must, at the behest of the forces of creation and the frothing vacuum hunger of the fans, pump out material. Much of it has been good, some of it has been questionable, and the rest has been... well, bad.
Yes, there have been bad parts. How many? Depends on who you ask. But I'm biased to put a positive spin on things because of the sort of talent they muster. Don't ask me personally; I'll sugar-coat it.
And then LoI and Frostdawn bit deeply into the real meat here: What happens now? Where does this big, strange world go? Which direction? Why do the novels lead? Should they lead? And if we are unhappy about this, must we lie down on our backs, bellies turned skywards, accepting the sting of what could be?
It's clear that DL has come a long way. It's even more clear that it continues on its journey still, winding down some path that, as ever it has been, is blazed by the novels and writers who were there on day one. We inherit that, make it our own... or burn out trying.
Personally? I like the conflict. I like the rough spots. I like the things that aren't always up to par. I like things a little weird.
Bring on 2005. Let's see what happens next.
Now, in the modern era (Age of Mortals), I no longer feel that. 1996 - 1998 I ran that epic game that in the Age of Mortals would not fly anymore (the premise of my campaign was to bring the Gods back, because it was a 2nd ed game done at the onset of the 5th age). Age of Mortals is a great timeframe now. There is a world of possibilities, and I no longer feel like I am competing with the novels. And thanks to War of the Souls, there is tons of things "wrong" with DL that I need to "fix" to restore the original world. I love it. In essence, I mean there are plot hooks galore in the world, and I don't even need to hunt to fluff down. I have read ever DL novel up to the final War of the Souls book, and have officially decided to not read any more of them. I am tired of changing my favorite world because the original creators want to blow it up some more. However, at the same time, those previous novels have made it so that I am so familiar with the world that I don't need things like a break down of the social structure of the Gully Dwarfs in Xsak Tasorith (I am sure I butchered that, but its a hard name, and I am at work at 2 in the morning). Let me make my own fluff, and I will give you a rich and in depth DL story, and this time the world wont end if you fail, promise.
All DL novels these days are printed under the WotC label. My point was (and still is) that if you take all the novels from the start till now, you'll see a trend that there are more world altering stories taking place in greater frequency now than in the past. I have no problem with your disagreeing with that, but do you have evidence to truly debate that in earnest?
Once again, WoTC does not write the novels, the authors do. The direction the DL novel line has taken is the direction the authors wanted the world to take. As I have stated beforehand many of the DL novels are no more than reprints, from the TSR days, packaged in a new bookcover.
Also, The DragonLance novel line began with a "world-altering" event(Cam Banks even made a statement about the DL novel constantly being torn by war, or something of that nature.). This event was known as The War of the Lance. The very history of DL is composed of "world-altering" events(i.e. numerous wars).
True, people complained about the editing process which was what was the blame for the 8-9 month delay of the campaign book. My point was, your taking complaining to an all new level by saying the adventure is a hack 'n slash fest, with little to no character driven development. (not an attack, but reiterating what you yourself said in other threads). The people of SP, including the authors of the KoD adventure have told you, they provided the basics, it's up to the DM and players to fill in the details, ie roleplaying. You've complained that they didn't provide you the RP.
A complaint is a complaint. It is the nature of the game, it is going to happen. Whether one complains about moon cycles, role playing possibilities, delays, etcetera. It is still a complaint. Know this, If you dislike my concerns(which were mirrored by others, though not neccesarily in this forum. One cannot expect a non-biased view of DL within a DL forum.) in particular you have what is known as an ignore poster feature available to you on the WoTC boards. Use it, I most certainly have.
That is what differentiates you from the other complaints on the forum.
No, what differentiates me from many other posters is the fact that:
1. I am not a hardcore DL fan, therefore I look at DragonLance with a non-biased eye.
2. Due to # 1, I do not blame WoTC for DL's shortcomings. Instead I look at what could be an amazing world, if it would just stop with the "world-changing" events for awhile, and focus on becoming more innovative in other ways(i.e. other than war). They consistently tear the world down, and then when they see people do not take well to their "world-altering" event(s), they try to re-build it(the world) again. The novels change the world consistently, the v3.5 gaming products lack serious role playing content(i.e. You jump from one fight to the next), etc, etc.
Again, I contend, if there is a lack of role playing content, why not do something about it, instead of complaining? Do you expect the writers of KoD and SoS to take you by the hand on every little issue?
When I buy a DL module, made as an extension to the Dungeons and Dragons Role Playing Game, I expect extensive role playing opportunities to be built in the campaign. It is a must. Who pays $24.99 for a pre-made module only to have to re-do the module anyway once it is purchased ?
Why should I have to re-do the module, other than some minor side plots ? That is what I just paid the designers $24.99 for.
The adventure is a guideline, not an instruction manual on DMing. Go with it, and use it to fuel your own ideas.
The pre-generated adventure is just that, a pre-generated adventure. The work, for the most part, should already be done. The DM should only have to pop it open, read it over ,make a few notes, and subsequently run the adventure. I should not have to re-write an adventure due to the fact that little to no role playing content has been included in an adventure made specifically for a role playing game.
You and I have both complimented Cam and his ability to take the adventure, and spice it up, adding in his own twists and what not, most likely making the RP aspect of his group great in the process. Why not attempt to that as well?
1. Cam basically only uses the adventure as a guideline. He does not follow the adventure as written. Basically he has constructed his own adventure, which differs from the module, but borrows things from the module. For example, Cam's group is around 10th-level I believe(they may be an even higher level now), the adventure is supposed to only take you as far as 7th-level.
2. Cam Banks is a DL game designer, he playtested that others "purchased." Your arguement is illogical, I just paid a DL designer to write a role playing module for me, and your saying, since it has little to no role playing(which is what I expected when I bought it) I should write the role playing into the module myself. The only person that supports a campaign setting when it is not providing what it should is a person that is a biased fan of said setting. I am a fan of D&D as a whole, not just DL. I want my money's worth, if you think that is bad....oh well.
As a DM, RP is about 60% your responsibility, 10% the adventure's responsibility, and about 30% belongs to the players (you can present RP opportunities to them, it's their 'role' to go with it, and make the game fun).
You cannot make a role playing game out of a game of tic-tac-toe(Not that this is what DL is, just saying that the game has to be built for role playing). The role playing content is what differentiates D&D from any other game. When the role playing content is shunned, or simply ousted; it becomes generic just like any other game. Nothing but dice rolling and gaining levels. No storyline, no character development(aside from stats), no mystery, or intrigue. When a DM, or player, purchases a pre-generated role playing module it should not be their job to generate role playing opportunities for said module.
I totally agree on the events changing the world, and that bugs me as well. "addressing it in your campaign group" was referring more to your problem with the lack of RP in the adventure. See above.
The lack of RP opportunities in the so-called "role playing adventure" should have been addressed within the adventure. See above.
"We received several different waiting-for-approval dates(dates when it was said to have been handed over to WoTC) with KoD"- it was relevant. My point was, edits aren't typically completed with one round. It takes several rounds, hence the "waiting-for-approval" dates. WotC were the ones doing the approving, so they were part of the problem of delinquent products. My comment is thereby relevant to both this discussion, and the thread.
I choose not to respond, in detail, to this section of your post, since further evidence of SP's product delays will be considered an attack upon SP by the moderators.
Is your problem with Atta or the storylines?
Your response is inconsistent with the following statement:
LoI wrote: "WoTC did not invent the storylines, characters, plots, etc,.....the authors did. Did a WoTC employee come to Weis's home and say "Make up a character named Atta, based off of your dog Tess ?" I think not"
This debunks your claim that WoTC is somehow ruining DL novels.
It is clear to see that "my problem" is with theories that claim aspects, such as "Atta"(meaning characters), storylines, etc. engineered solely by the authors of DL themselves are somehow the fault of WoTC rather than the authors that created said characters, storylines, etc.
If approval is required, then that suggests to me that QA should be part of that approval process. QA would keep things like storylines that contradict each other, or too many world affecting events at once in check.
The accountability lies with the ones whom wrote the story(the authors), not WoTC. You keep trying to push that which has been present in DL since it was created(i.e. "Change-the-world" storylines) off on WoTC.
Okay, it sounds it like we're on the same page here now. Don't you think WotC should step up, while in the midst of the approval process and say something like "ya know, the world here has 10 (exag) different invading hordes, 2-4 evil gods each with plans for death and conquest, a plague of undead vampires, death and carnage wreaked by freakishly giant dragons for nearly half a century. The only 2 organizations that could potentially fight any of this have been all but crushed (KoS and WoHS). Maybe should reign in some of the dark stuff a bit." Krynn is kinda becoming a post apocalyptic world that they keep dropping nukes on anyway. At least that's the feel I'm getting from it. Anywho, it sounds like you think the responsibility lies with the authors, and I contend that the publishers should take a good majority of the flak for the state of things, so we're arguing on shades of gray, well, kinda.
No I do not agree, it is up to the authors to do what is best for the world they are writing about. That's like me inventing a world, getting a company to publish it, subsequently ruining my world through my novels, and then blaming the publishing company.
"You cannot seriously hope to have the consumers fall for that theory"- this to me is an accusation.
Your statement is an assumption, which qualifies said statement as hypothetical, or simply a theory.
~~~
Once again, WoTC does not write the novels, the authors do. The direction the DL novel line has taken is the direction the authors wanted the world to take. As I have stated beforehand many of the DL novels are no more than reprints, from the TSR days, packaged in a new bookcover.
You don't understand the book department's process regarding Dragonlance novels, contracts, and assignments, LoI. It'd be best if you didn't make assumptions about it.
As far as my own campaign, I do use the module as a guide. I think my players ran through most of the encounters and followed the plot all the way through, even with the changes I made. The bulk of my changes came about as part of player input, with their choices dictating certain outcomes and opening up more opportunities. I've said this before, and I'll say it again - no product is going to make you a better roleplayer or know your group better than you do. All it can do is present scenarios, encounters, locations, and motivations, and Key of Destiny does all of that.
I do take feedback into account, of course, and I've made every effort to put more situations into Spectre of Sorrows that you can't just fight your way through. Hopefully that will settle some of these problems.
Cheers,
Cam
You don't understand the book department's process regarding Dragonlance novels, contracts, and assignments, LoI. It'd be best if you didn't make assumptions about it.
Are you saying WoTC is "forcing" DL authors to make "world-changing" events at every twist and turn ? Are you also denying that a good number of DL novels are no more than re-prints ?
As far as my own campaign, I do use the module as a guide. I think my players ran through most of the encounters and followed the plot all the way through, even with the changes I made. The bulk of my changes came about as part of player input, with their choices dictating certain outcomes and opening up more opportunities. I've said this before, and I'll say it again - no product is going to make you a better roleplayer or know your group better than you do. All it can do is present scenarios, encounters, locations, and motivations, and Key of Destiny does all of that.
The module does not send the players back in time to the ogre invasions, nor does it provide enough encounters to get the PCs to 10th-level, or higher. These are all things you have done.
As I was saying before, a role playing game should include numerous opprtunities for role playing.
I do take feedback into account, of course, and I've made every effort to put more situations into Spectre of Sorrows that you can't just fight your way through. Hopefully that will settle some of these problems.
I will be on the lookout for the module once it is released. Thank you for responding.
~~~
The pre-generated adventure is just that, a pre-generated adventure. The work, for the most part, should already be done. The DM should only have to pop it open, read it over ,make a few notes, and subsequently run the adventure. I should not have to re-write an adventure due to the fact that little to no role playing content has been included in an adventure made specifically for a role playing game.
How can a D&D module, which must be written to support whatever whacky comination of races, classes, archetypes, and alignments the players dream up, spoon feed roleplaying opportunities to the players?
I suppose that this might be a disconnect in a definition of "roleplaying". I don't necessarily think that just because a challenge is best solved without violence, that qualifies as roleplaying. Roleplaying occurs when the players care about their characters, and see situations uniquely suited to their PC's combination of talents, experience, knowledge, and history that they want to explore. A white robe wizard struggling to come to terms with evil that cannot be redeemed. A PC's wavering loyalty to a treacherous and dangerous relative. A good knight sympathetic to the plight of enslaved chromatic dragons.
That's roleplaying. No module can effortlessly had that to you on a silver platter. All it can do is set up the board, the GM has to do the rest.
Are you saying WoTC is "forcing" DL authors to make "world-changing" events at every twist and turn ? Are you also denying that a good number of DL novels are no more than re-prints ?
Nope. I'm not denying they're reprints. But I do know that a book won't get published unless WOTC wants it published. They don't just publish whatever they get handed by their authors and the authors typically don't just write whatever they like. As I said, you don't seem to understand how that works.
The module does not send the players back in time to the ogre invasions, nor does it provide enough encounters to get the PCs to 10th-level, or higher. These are all things you have done.
As I was saying before, a role playing game should include numerous opprtunities for role playing.
How are those things specifically role-playing opportunities? Clark will tell you that the time-travel thing in Hurim was almost constant battle from start to finish. I run a heck of a lot of fights. I also hand out a heck of a lot of XP.
Cheers,
Cam
Or maybe I just hope to god it isnt.
You know.. I had a lot to write.. but I've said a lot of the things that I really wanted to say in the other posts. In the end it doesnt really matter, I'm a firm believer that the authors will keep doing what they are doing. I like Dragonlance and want to continue DMing in it. So I'll suck it up.. and maybe do as ferratus said and just wait. But I'm starting to feel like thats all I do when it comes to Dragonlance.
I can wait the 2 1/2 years for the Knighthood trilogy to be done... and eventually get the Knight book maybe. Or have the book before the trilogy is even done, and then go through the book after the trilogy is done and put post-its all over the place. I'll add the sticky notes to my ToHS about the references to the new Tower. And I'll completely ignore parts of the DLCS and Age of Mortals that detail the Dragon Overlords.. whole pages almost useless.
Basically we dont have a choice. We will buy the books, edit them as they need to be edited everytime a novel comes out, and try to enjoy Dragonlance as it was meant to be.
I'd like to reiterate... I don't blame SP because for the most part, I like 90-95% of the stuff I see in the books. Thats a good ratio for me. I dont blame WoTC because the novels are what they focus on and its what makes them the money. They may dole out certain areas to certain authors, but I just can't believe they ask every novel writer to impact the world in a huge way. Thye just want stuff to sell.
I blame the authors. And you know what makes it worse... for the most part they are good novels(I personally dont like the Linsha trilogy but others seem to). I just find it so hard to believe that it would be so hard to write some stories that detail already existing cultures without having to create or change anything.
But maybe thats supposed to be the "thing" for Dragonlance. "Every new product causes a change!"
heh I reread through this..and it seems so negative. I love the world.. its just this one thing that brings me down. I've been thinking this for years. It isnt something new that just happened. It just *always* happens. I almost cringe nowadays when they announce a new trilogy because I always wonder.. whats going to change this time. Thats why I'm not really excited for the Taladas trilogy. I'm kind of afraid that while detailing Taladas, one of the cultures there will invade Ansalon, or try to take over something, etc.
How can a D&D module, which must be written to support whatever whacky comination of races, classes, archetypes, and alignments the players dream up, spoon feed roleplaying opportunities to the players?
The same way that the D&D game can be built for role playing whereas certain other games are not. What distinguished Ravenloft from Greyhawk, or from Forgotten Realms if not the way the gaming products are written to have a specific RL, or Greyhawk, flavor ?
Supporting races, classes, archetypes, and alignments does not mean negating role playing opportunities.
I don't necessarily think that just because a challenge is best solved without violence, that qualifies as roleplaying. Roleplaying occurs when the players care about their characters, and see situations uniquely suited to their PC's combination of talents, experience, knowledge, and history that they want to explore. A white robe wizard struggling to come to terms with evil that cannot be redeemed. A PC's wavering loyalty to a treacherous and dangerous relative. A good knight sympathetic to the plight of enslaved chromatic dragons.
That's roleplaying. No module can effortlessly had that to you on a silver platter. All it can do is set up the board, the GM has to do the rest.
How much role playing can there be on a open battlefield(encounter after encounter), as opposed to an assasination plot in the royal courts or a good mystery ? An RL DM even came to the boards and showed how certain settings are "built" for role playing. Your saying that even if PCs are fighting, fighting again, and then fighting some more that it's up to the DM/and players to SQUEEZE role playing in there, somewhere in-between the blows that are raining down on them, and not up to the authors to provide role playing opportunities in a role playing module.
If that is the road DL is taking, I will not be buying DL products much longer.
~~~
Nope. I'm not denying they're reprints. But I do know that a book won't get published unless WOTC wants it published. They don't just publish whatever they get handed by their authors and the authors typically don't just write whatever they like. As I said, you don't seem to understand how that works.
True_Blue's answer to this should suffice: "I just can't believe that WoTC sends out a memo to the DL authors and nudges them in the direction of world shattering events. I'm sure the books that have these events sell well, so who knows I guess it could happen. I guess I just would find it amazing that the highups at WoTC went up to Mary H Herbert(sp?) and said "You know what Dragonlance needs... another invasion""
Ditto@True_Blue.
How are those things specifically role-playing opportunities? Clark will tell you that the time-travel thing in Hurim was almost constant battle from start to finish. I run a heck of a lot of fights. I also hand out a heck of a lot of XP.
I never said they were, I said: "The module does not send the players back in time to the ogre invasions, nor does it provide enough encounters to get the PCs to 10th-level, or higher. These are all things you have done. As I was saying before, a role playing game should include numerous opprtunities for role playing."
Meaning that these things are not in the module, YOU added them in. They were not included, you were claiming you ran the module as is with little to no changes. There is a big difference between 7th and 10th-level; and the time travel thing....well....
~~~
Your saying that even if PCs are fighting, fighting again, and then fighting some more that it's up to the DM/and players to SQUEEZE role playing in there, somewhere between the blows that are raining down on them, and not up to the authors to provide role playing opportunities in a role playing module.
I think you missed my point. Roleplaying isn't what happens when the swords are sheathed, and stops when they're drawn. Roleplaying happens when the players care about their PCs and see why what's going on matters to that PC individually, whether the scene is an epic battle or a royal wedding.
If a module has a lot of fights, it's the GM's job to make those fights relevant to the PCs playing in the game. The most intricate assassination plot isn't roleplaying if the PCs don't give a damn and just go through the motions, making the appropriate rolls and being dragged around by the nose.
From what Cam has said, there will be plenty of opportunities for both violent and nonviolent gaming in SoS. Roleplaying opportunities are what you make of them. We've found no shortage of them in KoD. Cam's deviations from the plot are as much player driven as GM invented, and two of his big additions (the time travel plot and the epic Battle of Ak-Khurman) were combat fests - combat fests with tons of roleplaying involved.
I don't know, maybe we just see what roleplaying is differently. Edit: Expounding on that, if what you mean by looking for expanded roleplaying opportunities in SoS is nonviolent scenes and challenges where nonviolent solutions are possible, from what Cam has said I'm relatively certain that you won't be disappointed.
I think you missed my point. Roleplaying isn't what happens when the swords are sheathed, and stops when they're drawn. Roleplaying happens when the players care about their PCs and see why what's going on matters to that PC individually, whether the scene is an epic battle or a royal wedding.
Simply rolling dice fighting every second is tabletop wargaming, not role playing. There is a difference between the numerous fights in Warhammer and the intricate storylines, and plots of D&D. According to your statement you see simply rolling dice and role playing as being one in the same. They are not.
In role playing characters, plots, storylines, etc must be well-developed in order for the game to truly be a role playing game, rather than just another tabletop miniature wargame(Which is what D&D evolved from).
If a module has a lot of fights, it's the GM's job to make those fights relevant to the PCs playing in the game. The most intricate assassination plot isn't roleplaying if the PCs don't give a damn and just go through the motions, making the appropriate rolls and being dragged around by the nose.
Tabletop wargaming is not role playing, its wargaming. An intricate assasination plot, or any intricate plot for that matter(where the NPCs are well developed, the storyline is not overly dramatic to the point that it is just corny) equals an opportunity for role playing. I can't believe you are actually trying to pass "wargaming"(i.e. simply rolling the dice 24/7) off as "role playing."
From what Cam has said, there will be plenty of opportunities for both violent and nonviolent gaming in SoS.
I have heard and I trust Cam to do his best.
Roleplaying opportunities are what you make of them. We've found no shortage of them in KoD. Cam's deviations from the plot are as much player driven as GM invented, and two of his big additions (the time travel plot and the epic Battle of Ak-Khurman) were combat fests - combat fests with tons of roleplaying involved.
1. Role playing opportunities must be present in order for you to "make something of them."
2. If you believe KoD is a role playing module, rather than a hack-fest, I will not try to convince you otherwise.
3. The players did not make up the time travel plot, or write the hooks, in Cam's campaign. They may have influenced his decisions but they did not concoct them.
4. I never said his additions were not combat-fests, nor did I say they were role playing fests. I said: "The module does not send the players back in time to the ogre invasions, nor does it provide enough encounters to get the PCs to 10th-level, or higher. These are all things you have done. As I was saying before, a role playing game should include numerous opprtunities for role playing.
Meaning that these things are not in the module, YOU added them in. They were not included, you were claiming you ran the module as is with little to no changes. There is a big difference between 7th and 10th-level; and the time travel thing....well...."
I don't know, maybe we just see what roleplaying is differently.
It is simple: Wargaming(i.e. simply rolling dice at a table.) is not role playing. D&D had its foundations in wargaming but they are NOT the same thing. Any hardcore RPG'er could tell you this. If they were the same one would not be called a tabletop wargame, while the other is known as a role playing game.
Edit: Expounding on that, if what you mean by looking for expanded roleplaying opportunities in SoS is nonviolent scenes and challenges where nonviolent solutions are possible, from what Cam has said I'm relatively certain that you won't be disappointed.
We will see, from what I have seen of the preview it sounds good so far...
~~~
According to your statement you see simply rolling dice and role playing as being one in the same.
No, that's not what my statement says at all. My statement says combat doesn't preclude roleplaying. They are not mutually exclusive. You seem to think they are, as your statement seems to suggest you see combat as nothing more than endless rolling of dice as a tabletop wargame. It needn't be.
In role playing characters, plots, storylines, etc must be well-developed...
Did you see my post where I give examples of that very sort of thing from our own KoD game?
I can't believe you are actually trying to pass "wargaming"(i.e. simply rolling the dice 24/7) off as "role playing."
That's because I'm not doing anything of the sort. Where did you get this idea?
My point is this: The great roleplaying we've had in our KoD game isn't the sort of thing that could have been added by ANY game designer, because it rests on who our PCs are and what they do in-game. There's no way any designer could anticipate what characters we'd play through KoD and introduce these story hooks to take advantage of them. That's the GM's job.
DL is a shared world. Authors aren't given that much freedom with where they can go and what they can write. The most recent forwards looking books have all been tied together in ways. Do you think that the authors independently decided to do that? They have meetings regularly to decide where the setting is going and how it is going to get there. I'm pretty certain that Mary was told something like, the brutes need to invade the missing city. have fun.
I dunno.. most of them are good books. We have the Minotaur trilogy and the Solamnia trilogy all this year. So we'll have more change. And who knows what will happen with the Taladas trilogy. As I said, I'm worried that they'll launch an invasion to Ansalon, or tie in the continent in some way. I'd rather they just cover Taladas and we see a gaming supplement for it. Oh and the Mina trilogy.. which will rock the gods and the WoHS, and maybe change how things go with them, or it seems. I doubt that Tower will stay how it is for veyr long.
There just arent any new books that tell compelling stories that dont have big impacts. I just wonder why that is. You can tell good stories, I have plenty of books that do just that. Do these authors think that this is the best way to sell stuff? Or do they just want to leave their mark? Or maybe they do see this as not a big deal. Maybe I make too big of a deal about it.. *shrug* who knows heh
It'll be interesting to see what books will be slated for release at the end of the year and the beginning of next year.
Once again, WoTC does not write the novels, the authors do. The direction the DL novel line has taken is the direction the authors wanted the world to take. As I have stated beforehand many of the DL novels are no more than reprints, from the TSR days, packaged in a new bookcover.
Well, you yourself said you wanted to drop the novel discussion, and I concurred, but seeing as how it’s “do as I say, not as I do”, I’ll humor you. I looked over my collection of DL novels (I counted around 88 novels, which I’ll round down to 80 for the use of this example). Of those novels, roughly 75% or 60 of them occur before Summer of Chaos (again, rounding for the sake of ease) Of the novels BEFORE SoC, about 15 of the 60 odd novels had world affecting events taking place in the story (includes storylines like The Elven Nations trilogy, up through and including the Chronicles (3rd dragon war or War of the Lance). Of the last 25% or 20 something DL titles I own after the SoC, about 15 of them had some world altering event take place during the story. So let’s break this down a little further.
Before Chaos
~60 novels, about 25% of which affected the world
After Chaos
~20 novels, about 75% of which affected the world
This is a litmus test based on the novels I own and have read. We can take the entirety of the product listing for all DL products printed everyday from it’s inception up to and including today, and I think most would concur that more world altering events have taken place in recent years than in the past by quite a margin. Yes, world altering events occurred in the novels of years past (under TSR), but not with the frequency they are today. That was, is, and continues to be my point.
Also, The DragonLance novel line began with a "world-altering" event(Cam Banks even made a statement about the DL novel constantly being torn by war, or something of that nature.). This event was known as The War of the Lance. The very history of DL is composed of "world-altering" events(i.e. numerous wars).
I never contested that, only that the frequency of world altering events has increased dramatically in recent years, and needs to be eased off on IMHO. This ties back into the scorched earth example I cited earlier where Krynn feels like a post apocalyptic world they keep dropping nukes on. Enough already with world altering events. Space it out a little. That’s my main ‘beef’. World altering events are great, but not when they occur repeatedly over the course of a year or so in the world of the setting. Historically, world altering events in Krynn were spaced out a little, ofttimes to the tune of a couple hundred years between events. Not anymore, and THAT is getting old IMHO.
A complaint is a complaint. It is the nature of the game, it is going to happen. Whether one complains about moon cycles, role playing possibilities, delays, etcetera. It is still a complaint. Know this, If you dislike my concerns(which were mirrored by others, though not neccesarily in this forum. One cannot expect a non-biased view of DL within a DL forum.) in particular you have what is known as an ignore poster feature available to you on the WoTC boards. Use it, I most certainly have.
People are entitled to their opinions is basically what your saying here, since a complaint is an outward expression of an opinion. If that is your stance, then why start baiting me with snide comments after my admitted rant session/opinion which sparked off this whole debate? That aside, again, frequency of complaints is something that you have a problem with. You’ve complained about editing. Release schedules, content, lack of content, opinions of others, postings of others on the forums. In the past, I’ve been among the complainers of late materials, but I digress. Oh, and thanks once again for your signature sarcasm in trying to ‘enlighten me’ on very basic features of these forums which I’ve been using longer than you (referring to the ignore poster feature). Borderline violation of article 5 in the codes of conduct IMO…
No, what differentiates me from many other posters is the fact that:
1. I am not a hardcore DL fan, therefore I look at DragonLance with a non-biased eye.
2. Due to # 1, I do not blame WoTC for DL's shortcomings. Instead I look at what could be an amazing world, if it would just stop with the "world-changing" events for awhile, and focus on becoming more innovative in other ways(i.e. other than war). They consistently tear the world down, and then when they see people do not take well to their "world-altering" event(s), they try to re-build it(the world) again. The novels change the world consistently, the v3.5 gaming products lack serious role playing content(i.e. You jump from one fight to the next), etc, etc.
If your “not a hardcore DL fan” than why do you complain about what you know you can’t change? It actually makes you sound more like a fan-boy. On one hand you say “invent your own” and “I am not a hardcore DL fan” but on the other hand, you complain about the state of DL about 10 times as much as any other person I’ve ever seen post a message on these boards. And you demand more of ‘x’ and less of ‘y’ in everything with the DL stamp on it. Kinda hypocritical isn’t it?
When I buy a DL module, made as an extension to the Dungeons and Dragons Role Playing Game, I expect extensive role playing opportunities to be built in the campaign. It is a must. Who pays $24.99 for a pre-made module only to have to re-do the module anyway once it is purchased ?
Why should I have to re-do the module, other than some minor side plots ? That is what I just paid the designers $24.99 for.
The players handbook and Dungeon Master Guide don’t plot out adventures for you either. They provide the tools for you to RP with. The adventure is very similar in that regard. It’s a tool to get you started playing, not telling you how to speak with person a, or how to make person b act around the characters. If you want RP in the vein of conspiracy theories, assassination attempts, etc, then Ak-Khurman’s assassins would have been ideal, and really would not have been that much work to go with. It’s not SP’s fault that they didn’t put in paranthesis “(Lord of Illusions- here is where you have the ninja guys (forgot the organization’s name) stage a coupe of the city in order to place the daughter on the throne after she overthrows her father)” or something similar to that. Examples like this abound throughout the adventure. If Chris Coyle tried to account for all the little niche things you could potentially do to cover every RP opportunity, the adventure would balloon out in size exponentially. Then we’d have either more books, and even more waiting, or a book that costs that much more, not to mention all the extra editing that extra content would require. Then that would set off a whole set of complaints. That kinda thinking is really naïve.
The pre-generated adventure is just that, a pre-generated adventure. The work, for the most part, should already be done. The DM should only have to pop it open, read it over ,make a few notes, and subsequently run the adventure. I should not have to re-write an adventure due to the fact that little to no role playing content has been included in an adventure made specifically for a role playing game.
Then that is a very shallow RP experience for your players. How are they supposed to interact with a canned adventure, which is what you are saying you want from the book? I’ve taken my group on all kinds of side quests and character development treks, and at most I make MAYBE 1-2 pages of notes on 8.5 x 5.5 sized sheets in a little notebook per gaming session. The rest is run straight from the KoD, and no one has complained. Lots of RP, everyone has fun. Those notes? Probably 1-2 maybe 3 hours prep per session on my part to think about little things I’d like to try or to shake things up a bit. If that is too much for you, perhaps the adventure isn’t the problem…
1. Cam basically only uses the adventure as a guideline. He does not follow the adventure as written. Basically he has constructed his own adventure, which differs from the module, but borrows things from the module. For example, Cam's group is around 10th-level I believe(they may be an even higher level now), the adventure is supposed to only take you as far as 7th-level.
Considering Cam himself has already debunked this fantasy myth of yours, I don’t need to go into it. Although interesting how you perceive that because his group is at a higher experience level, that somehow by virtue of that very miniscule fact, he’s altered the adventure in ground breaking ways. Interesting…
2. Cam Banks is a DL game designer, he playtested that others "purchased." Your arguement is illogical, I just paid a DL designer to write a role playing module for me, and your saying, since it has little to no role playing(which is what I expected when I bought it) I should write the role playing into the module myself. The only person that supports a campaign setting when it is not providing what it should is a person that is a biased fan of said setting. I am a fan of D&D as a whole, not just DL. I want my money's worth, if you think that is bad....oh well.
Yes, you should write the RP in the adventure yourself. No book can customize the adventure for every potential group. That is the responsibility of the DM. Just because it’s an adventure, doesn’t mean that it requires you to effectively shut off your brain from being creative and running an adventure. Not that I intended that as an insult, but rather it’s the message your conveying in what you expect in an adventure book.
I choose not to respond, in detail, to this section of your post, since further evidence of SP's product delays will be considered an attack upon SP by the moderators.
Like your proposal to stop addressing novels, but you did anyway? Riiiiiight.
Your response is inconsistent with the following statement:
LoI wrote: "WoTC did not invent the storylines, characters, plots, etc,.....the authors did. Did a WoTC employee come to Weis's home and say "Make up a character named Atta, based off of your dog Tess ?" I think not"
This debunks your claim that WoTC is somehow ruining DL novels.
HOW does that ‘bebunk’ my claim? Simply because you say so? Authors create characters for their books. They also create a plotline for their story. They submit the story to WotC. WotC REVIEWS the content, and either says go ahead and write it, or stop where your at. At that review point, my contention is, WotC has the power to tell the author they are going overboard in world altering events, or are screwing with continuity of another storyline that that particular author may not be privy to since one of their contemporaries is working on another story that coincides with the newly submitted story. Is it the responsibility of author a to know what is going on in author b’s story which is being written at the same time? Your argument suggests this is the case. But since you have taken a micro view of this argument to plead your case (the Atta example, or a minor character) Let me take the macro view and look at publishers for a second. If a children’s book writer decided to create a Maplethorpe book for Golden Books, don’t you think Golden Books would tell the author, “gee, I don’t think this story is gonna go over very well.”? Or would you stay with your preseumption and erroneous thought that you’ve debunked my claim, and Golden Books would just go ahead and publish the book, and the author would take all the flak? When the lawsuits happened, who do you think would be summoned into court as a defendant against the outraged parents? Hint, it’s not gonna be the author. That’s called accountability.
It is clear to see that "my problem" is with theories that claim aspects, such as "Atta"(meaning characters), storylines, etc. engineered solely by the authors of DL themselves are somehow the fault of WoTC rather than the authors that created said characters, storylines, etc.
Only if Atta is a world affecting plot device. J
The accountability lies with the ones whom wrote the story(the authors), not WoTC. You keep trying to push that which has been present in DL since it was created(i.e. "Change-the-world" storylines) off on WoTC.
Check the Golden Books example above. I think this explains a bit what my point is in this microcosm of this argument we’re having.
Your statement is an assumption, which qualifies said statement as hypothetical, or simply a theory.
~~~
Our whole argument is based on an inflammatory comment you made accusing me of trying to sway public view, when all I did was rant about an opinion I held, and you somehow thought was irrelevant and below your respect because it differed from your own. That is not a theory or hypothesis, but cold, hard fact.
To me, role playing is pretty simple. When one is role playing, one is taking on the role of something or someone that he or she is not. For example, when role playing is used for psychiatric purposes, it is used to put someone in another person's shoes in the hopes that it will offer them a view as to why certain behaviors are hurtful or beneficial or whatever.
In a role playing game, the players take on the roles of their various characters. Whether you're Konthag the disgraced minotaur mariner, Mithras Lysanguire the White Robe, or Tanis Half-Elven, you are essentially acting, and responding to various situations as that character would.
Now, throughout the adventure, both the DM and the players are roleplaying. The DM roleplays the various NPCs, from the PCs mighty patron, to the humblest of goblin warriors led to the slaughter, while the players roleplay their characters. As long as something is happening in character, by the definition I've given above, there is roleplaying.
To me, combat is just as much a role playing situation as a fancy dinner. When Rathgar the Pakin barbarian charges into battle against Chief Thrall of the Bleeding Tooth ogre tribe, he screams the command word to light his greataxe on fire. As the two trade blows, they also trade insults. Although there is a lot of "dice rolling" going on, the person playing Rathgar is acting in a way that Rathgar would act. The DM is also role playing here, because he or she is playing the role of the ogre chieftain. The DM should respond to Rathgar's insults. The DM should come up with witty insults of his or her own, cry out in pain as the ogre is wounded, and call for help when the ogre decides it is necessary.
This encounter affects Rathgar. If he wins, he brags to his buddies at the local tavern, and bards sing songs of his mighty battle. If he loses, he trains harder in an attempt to best his foe. Either way, the DM will have hopefully role played a memorable NPC, even if it was just a fight with a lot of dice rolling.
It would seem that the general desire is for there to be more non-combat role playing going on. I've found in my groups, however, that this type of role playing typically goes on just as much between characters within the group as it does between players and NPCs. When your group of players is discussing a plan, or reminiscing about old times, they are role playing. Typically, players are the ones that direct the role playing that is being done. They decide who they want to talk to, what questions to ask, what information to accept or to ignore.
Players are notoriously unpredictable. The best prep any DM can hope to do before any given session is to prepare places for the players to go and people for the players to meet. Beyond that, it's really anybody's guess as to what is going to happen. The DM puts on his or her actor's hat and does the best he or she can to react to the player's actions in character with the NPCs personality.
Now, finally, to get to my point. No one should EVER hope to buy a pregenerated module and have it work exactly as it is written. No one should EVER hope to buy a pregenerated module and expect to be able to run it without any work at all. With the hundreds of millions of different players, characters, and personalities out there, the only way to "build" role playing opportunities into a pregenerated adventure is to stat out NPCs and give basic information about their personalities, appearance, and information they can give out to the party. The module in question, Key of Destiny, does all that. Key of Destiny essentially does the bulk of the work for any DM. All other role playing should be provided by the DM based on the actions of the players. Role playing opportunities are everywhere: buying equipment from the store, getting dinner at an inn, watching the Herald get attacked in a bar, and fighting a heated battle with eight draconians. It's up to the DM to make the most out of those opportunities.
EDIT: I meant, but forgot, to mention that from what I've experienced, there is no one setting that is more or less prone to "good role playing." I've had just as many hack-fests in Ravenloft or Forgotten Realms as I've had in Dragonlance. I've also had just as many mysteries, investigations, weddings, dinners, or whatever other "non-combat role playing" in every setting I've played in. What it all really boils down to is the DM that is running the show and what he or she wants the players to experience.
GCS
Well, you yourself said you wanted to drop the novel discussion, and I concurred, but seeing as how it’s “do as I say, not as I do”, I’ll humor you. I looked over my collection of DL novels (I counted around 88 novels, which I’ll round down to 80 for the use of this example). Of those novels, roughly 75% or 60 of them occur before Summer of Chaos (again, rounding for the sake of ease) Of the novels BEFORE SoC, about 15 of the 60 odd novels had world affecting events taking place in the story (includes storylines like The Elven Nations trilogy, up through and including the Chronicles (3rd dragon war or War of the Lance). Of the last 25% or 20 something DL titles I own after the SoC, about 15 of them had some world altering event take place during the story. So let’s break this down a little further.
Before Chaos
~60 novels, about 25% of which affected the world
After Chaos
~20 novels, about 75% of which affected the world
This is a litmus test based on the novels I own and have read. We can take the entirety of the product listing for all DL products printed everyday from it’s inception up to and including today, and I think most would concur that more world altering events have taken place in recent years than in the past by quite a margin. Yes, world altering events occurred in the novels of years past (under TSR), but not with the frequency they are today. That was, is, and continues to be my point.
DragonLance has always been based on world-altering, overdramatic, tragic events; this has occurred ever since the world was conceived.
I never contested that, only that the frequency of world altering events has increased dramatically in recent years, and needs to be eased off on IMHO. This ties back into the scorched earth example I cited earlier where Krynn feels like a post apocalyptic world they keep dropping nukes on. Enough already with world altering events. Space it out a little. That’s my main ‘beef’. World altering events are great, but not when they occur repeatedly over the course of a year or so in the world of the setting. Historically, world altering events in Krynn were spaced out a little, ofttimes to the tune of a couple hundred years between events. Not anymore, and THAT is getting old IMHO.
Either way DL has always been based off of world-altering events(see my response above).
People are entitled to their opinions is basically what your saying here, since a complaint is an outward expression of an opinion. If that is your stance, then why start baiting me with snide comments after my admitted rant session/opinion which sparked off this whole debate? That aside, again, frequency of complaints is something that you have a problem with. You’ve complained about editing. Release schedules, content, lack of content, opinions of others, postings of others on the forums. In the past, I’ve been among the complainers of late materials, but I digress. Oh, and thanks once again for your signature sarcasm in trying to ‘enlighten me’ on very basic features of these forums which I’ve been using longer than you (referring to the ignore poster feature). Borderline violation of article 5 in the codes of conduct IMO…
You seem to be taking this extremely personal(possibly due to the fact that some of the shortcomings of Dragonlance are under the magnifying glass on this thread). Informing someone that there is an ignore poster feature which they may use if they do not wish to view anothe poster's "complaints" is hardly a personal attack.
If your “not a hardcore DL fan” than why do you complain about what you know you can’t change? It actually makes you sound more like a fan-boy.
LoL! You cannot be serious..
Two words: Paying customer. Again, I am a fan of D&D as a whole, according to the statement above if I purchase a generic D&D book, and something is wrong with it, I should not complain and instead just stomache it even though I just paid X amount of dollars for what should have been a quality product.
On one hand you say “invent your own” and “I am not a hardcore DL fan” but on the other hand, you complain about the state of DL about 10 times as much as any other person I’ve ever seen post a message on these boards. And you demand more of ‘x’ and less of ‘y’ in everything with the DL stamp on it. Kinda hypocritical isn’t it?
No. See above.
The players handbook and Dungeon Master Guide don’t plot out adventures for you either. They provide the tools for you to RP with. The adventure is very similar in that regard. It’s a tool to get you started playing, not telling you how to speak with person a, or how to make person b act around the characters.
You are incorrect. The PHB and DMG are not pre-made adventures, they are rule books, therefore you should not be expecting a pre-made role playing adventure from a RULEBOOK. Do you go to the book store to buy a PlayStation ?
The role playing module should be what it claims to be a "role playing module", not a Warhammer guidebook. Also, modules do tell you how to speak with person A(Modules tell you what the NPCs should say to the PCs), or how to make person B act around the characters(Are you even reading some of the lines in the module for the NPCs. P.S. It tells you what they say
) If you want RP in the vein of conspiracy theories, assassination attempts, etc, then Ak-Khurman’s assassins would have been ideal, and really would not have been that much work to go with. It’s not SP’s fault that they didn’t put in paranthesis “(Lord of Illusions- here is where you have the ninja guys (forgot the organization’s name) stage a coupe of the city in order to place the daughter on the throne after she overthrows her father)” or something similar to that. Examples like this abound throughout the adventure. If Chris Coyle tried to account for all the little niche things you could potentially do to cover every RP opportunity, the adventure would balloon out in size exponentially. Then we’d have either more books, and even more waiting, or a book that costs that much more, not to mention all the extra editing that extra content would require. Then that would set off a whole set of complaints. That kinda thinking is really naïve.
The module contains little-to no role playing opportunites, I do not expect you to concur since you are a hardcore DragonLance fan. In your eyes DL can do no wrong.
Then that is a very shallow RP experience for your players. How are they supposed to interact with a canned adventure, which is what you are saying you want from the book? I’ve taken my group on all kinds of side quests and character development treks, and at most I make MAYBE 1-2 pages of notes on 8.5 x 5.5 sized sheets in a little notebook per gaming session. The rest is run straight from the KoD, and no one has complained. Lots of RP, everyone has fun. Those notes? Probably 1-2 maybe 3 hours prep per session on my part to think about little things I’d like to try or to shake things up a bit. If that is too much for you, perhaps the adventure isn’t the problem…
I said: "The pre-generated adventure is just that, a pre-generated adventure. The work, for the most part, should already be done. The DM should only have to pop it open, read it over ,make a few notes, and subsequently run the adventure. I should not have to re-write an adventure due to the fact that little to no role playing content has been included in an adventure made specifically for a role playing game."
None of the above qualifies as a "shallow RP experience." My statements above qualify as what a pre-generated adventure is supposed to be. Let's take a look at what "pre" means...
Main Entry: pre-
Function: prefix
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French & Latin; Old French, from Latin prae-, from prae in front of, before -- more at FOR
1 a (1) : earlier than : prior to : before (2) : preparatory or prerequisite to b : in advance : beforehand
2 : in front of : anterior to
..So "pre-generated" must mean "generated beforehand." That is one of the main purposes of buying a pre-made adventure(i.e. most of the work should already be done. This includes role playing opportunities as role playing is the basis of the D&D game.).
Considering Cam himself has already debunked this fantasy myth of yours, I don’t need to go into it. Although interesting how you perceive that because his group is at a higher experience level, that somehow by virtue of that very miniscule fact, he’s altered the adventure in ground breaking ways. Interesting…
If the adventure i supposed to end at 7th-level and your group is beyond 10th-level, if the dark knights have made a major attack(and this is written nowhere in the module, if you have your PCs go back in time(but they were not supposed to go back in time) you have altered the adventure considerably. Cam is running a different adventure than the one printed, even though some things may be similar.
Yes, you should write the RP in the adventure yourself.
No, An abundance of role playing opportunities should have already been present in the module(Key words: Pre-generated role playing module)
No book can customize the adventure for every potential group.
I never asked SP to customize it to "my group", I asked that the adventure include an abundance of role playing opportunities, which it does not. How did you miss this ?
Not that I intended that as an insult, but rather it’s the message your conveying in what you expect in an adventure book.
Your entire response has contained inflammatory, cloaked insults. I am not phased, this is due to the fact that DL is being called out on the things that need improvement, and most hardcore DL fans don't like it. DL can do no wrong in their eyes. Even old GCS made sure he popped in on the thread to say something slick(this probably goes back to his old personal beef he had with me)....*shrugs*
Only if Atta is a world affecting plot device.
How does the above debunk the following ?: "It is clear to see that "my problem" is with theories that claim aspects, such as "Atta"(meaning characters), storylines, etc. engineered solely by the authors of DL themselves are somehow the fault of WoTC rather than the authors that created said characters, storylines, etc. "
..Never mind don't answer. I don't feel like reading another paragraph.
Know this, Atta was made by Weis, just as the storylines were. Don't blame WoTC for DL's shortcomings.
Well what do you know, GCS is back looking for an arguement.
Not today kiddo.~~~
None of the above qualifies as a "shallow RP experience." My statements above qualify as what a pre-generated adventure is supposed to be. Let's take a look at what "pre" means...
By all that's holy, man, let's not. Please, just stop. I get it. You don't like it. Thank you. We will try harder. Or something.
Cheers,
Cam
By all that's holy, man, let's not. Please, just stop. I get it. You don't like it. Thank you. We will try harder. Or something.
Cheers,
Cam
Thank you Cam for responding to "half" of a statement, which was not directed towards you in the first place.
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I know this will get me ignored/flamed by everyone participating in the argument, but:Will you please stop throwing mud at eachother!. The mud is being thrown very hard. I suspect you can see that Talinthas, who started the thread, has already left your mudfight. Everyone else should too. The reason i haven't is because i'm an idiot who thinks he can dodge the fire from both sides. :D . I don't know why Cam hasn't left. I wonder if he'll tell me.
Perhaps because he(Cam) is participating ? Either way, I am now making use of the ignore feature(which I should have done before this went as far as it has) so the arguement is at its end.
~~~
If you ordered it online then why didn't you go to the local game story to research it? I mean I am sure the people who own your store won't mind you making sure you like somthing before you buy it.
Also even the hardcore Dl fans are saying that there are things wrong, or did you not know that Tal is a hard core DL fan? Or that I am? Tal posted this same thing on the DL website and there were quiet a few people there who also mentioned problems
GCS
i posted this on three of the core DL forums, and am vastly amused by the different responses it got. Every year i post one during the slow times just to try to get people thinking about Dragonlance from a macro perspective. What ends up happening is that people start to really see where the problems are, and start proposing ideas and changes for the story. I really like that, despite all the vitrol that comes along with it. Admittedly, this thread went in a vastly different direction than i had forseen or intended, but i think what we all learned is that some people want their hands held and some people don't.
Personally, i view this argument as comparing a box of legos to a barbie playset. some folks want the componants to make their own game, and some people want the house and car built for them so that they can start telling their own stories right away. I'm not ashamed to tell you that i'm the latter. Of course, other people want the step by step DVD walkthrough and demo, but we won't go there =)
~~~
I hope GCS's message was not directed at me since I can't see anything but.."This message is hidden because Green_Cloaked_Sorcerer is on your ignore list. "
You can stop hoping whether it was or not, LoI, because you put him on your ignore list. We won't tell you whether he did or didn't, as I am certain that were you to care, you'd take him off your ignore list, so telling you would be a waste of our time.
Cheers,
Cam
This message is hidden because Cam Banks is on your ignore list.
Umm Cam, Just to let you know I cannot see your message either, Sorry.
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Umm Cam, Just to let you know I cannot see your message either, Sorry.
This is the saddest conversation I've ever been part of. Just for those of you still paying attention.
Cheers,
Cam
This is the saddest conversation I've ever been part of. Just for those of you still paying attention.
Cheers,
Cam
Somehow I think there was a contest I missed out on about who can be the most infantile on these boards. I agree, this thread has deteriorated into a bickering-fest from Tal's legitimate complaint (that I both agree and disagree with).
To everyone here, I apologize for my part in all this sordid mess.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
This thread will be locked, do not restart it.
*Click*