First off, it looks like Hogan Bight is back in Sanction, with Linsha Majere serving as his main thug and enforcer. Thank goodness for that. Sanction and Hogan Bight are perfect for one another, and proves that Sanction will continue to be an adventurers haven, with opportunities to strike out against Nereka, Lemish, Sable's swamp, the Ogre Kingdoms, Thoradin, and god knows what ancient ruins in the Khalkists.
Linsha's status as a "knight-in-exile" will also satisfy both Linsha supporters and detractors. I'm a little dissappointed that there weren't other reasons for removing Linsha from the knighthood (namely her attitude, military discipline, and disdain for the knighthood itself) but I'm glad she's gone. As commander of the Sanction City Guard she will have ample opportunity to use her Rogue Knight levels, her mystic levels, and her fighter levels. She fits better there, as she is an excellent warrior.
Given that Gerard, another good warrior but horrible knight has become the Sheriff of Solace, I'm wondering if the purging of the Knighthood to a more professional, disciplined, and cohesive military force. A return to the ideal that they once were.
As for the Missing City, I am disappointed about it on many levels. The coolest part of the missing city used to be its specters, which are now gone. As well, it was a free city in the middle of evil, and thus a perfect spawning ground for adventurers. Now as a Tarmak city there is very little reason to visit. It is just one more evil empire in the midst of several other evil empires, all on the eastern half of the continent. A good mixture of evil and good kingdoms on Ansalon would be more desirable to adventure planning. To fight the Tarmak now, I have to go through the Minotaurs, whether by land or sea.
However, I love the idea of a city of Tarmak, and the Tarmak culture that Mary Herbert has fleshed out. So I'm going to move it. Perhaps Karthay, Ogrebond, or even Kalaman would be excellent. Yeah, Kalaman... especially since the brute homeland is equatorial anyway. I mean, if you're going to invade a place on Ansalon by Northern seas, this would be the place to do it. Bypass the minotaurs, and get a nice, nearly empty city to colonize.
I personally believe Lord Soth as a Death Knight had a better grasp for Solamnic code, loyalty, and honor than Linsha. Linsha strikes me as way too chaotic. There almost isnt any semblance of a Lawful bent for alignment. Personally I think she should have been Chaotic Good, with no ability to take the Knighthood PrC's.. that are reserved for "true" knights as people here say ;) The only time she ever really took orders or anything, was to "fit in" from the Clandestine Circle. wow.
I wonder if she now will have an epiphany and switch to being a cleric of Kiri-Jolith. Or will she still be a mystic? Seems weird that Kiri-Jolith would give any direct spells. I know it says that Kiri-Jolith provides spells when a person is a Sword/Rose, but it seems weird that a mystic would gain their more powerful spells from a god, when in the knighthood. I still advocate the idea of the Knights getting their powers/spells from the combination of all three gods, now two. Kind of like what happens in FR when elves worship the aspect of the 3 gods put together. The way it comes off now, the Knighthood seems too much like a branch of the church of Kiri-Jolith.
Personally I dont find the Brutes culture really that original. They are militaristic. The breed their people for wars. They believe they are the best and deserve to conquor. Yea.. I've seen that with the Minotaurs. And they even seem to have a "culture" that goes along with it. The brutes seem too much to be drab. The brutes are even more militaristic! Yea thats what we need, another race bent on taking over the world.. Dragonlance is missing that niche
But at least now a person can define their Tarmak PC a little better. I personally would like to see a little bit more detail in how the Tarmak's are different than humans, besides having small pointed ears and they are tall/muscular.
All I want... is a Knight to come along.. who acts according to the Knighthood and becomes a hero. Huma wasn't a normal knight, doing things that maybe most knights wouldnt do. Sturm wasnt even technically a knight, until around the moment he sacrificed himself. Vinus Solamnus founded the knighthood and may be considered a knight, but most of his "good" deeds happened to lead up to forming the knighthood. I guess we have Lord Gunther.. who's deeds mainly shine more in politics than any real heroic, brave, fighting deeds. And we have Linsha who did "good", but bucked the system. Gerard, the same kind of way.. or close enough to it. I would love to see a Knight who is a shining example of the knighthood, the way it was founded, who does heroic deeds. And not some unnamed knights like the ones who fought against Chaos. I'm talking one that we can follow their deeds and actually empathize with.
That is why Huma, Sturm, Gerard, Vinas, and Gunthar have knight levels and Derek does not.
At least in my head it made sense.
However I should state I haven't read the Linsha trilogy yet and things I've heard have struck me as odd, but eh.
Besides a perfect knight would be boring to read about, boring to play to. Faults are what make a character interesting.
Horrible story to finish a horrible series. A nice addition of culture for the Tarmaks, which will fill nicely into PC Tarmak's backstories. I'm glad for that addition, and basically only that addition.
A.K.A. Sparta. Though it did have the difference that they had familial lines of succession and isolated their women in the manner of chinese emperors and officials.
Oh, and now Linsha is gone from the knighthood. Although we almost know for sure she will be readmitted later on, which is sad.
I'm hoping that no new books will mean Linsha will be eventually forgotten about except as a footnote to the geography entry of Sanction. I guess I'll have to see if Douglas Niles picks her up. I don't mind her as a character, I just don't like her as a Knight of Solamnia. If she had been a member of the Legion of Steel I would have enjoyed the trilogy a lot more.
The only time she ever really took orders or anything, was to "fit in" from the Clandestine Circle. wow.
That's the thing, she believes that her own judgement and own sense of "what is right" trumps everything else. She can fight, she can sneak, and she can handle something ruthlessly, but as a soldier and a knight she's everything I hated about what the Knighthood became in the 5th Age sourcebooks.
I wonder if she now will have an epiphany and switch to being a cleric of Kiri-Jolith. Or will she still be a mystic? Seems weird that Kiri-Jolith would give any direct spells.
It seems she had a very cynical epiphany in which she thought "I'm getting my ass kicked, but hey the gods are back, help me out Kiri-Jolith". She also suddenly swears by Kiri-Jolith all of the sudden. The cynic in me wonders if Mary Herbert read the DLCS and said "Oh, the Knights of Solamnia worship Kiri-Jolith, I should work that in somehow".
Kind of like what happens in FR when elves worship the aspect of the 3 gods put together. The way it comes off now, the Knighthood seems too much like a branch of the church of Kiri-Jolith.
I've suggested that they should worship the pantheon of good collectively. Strong resistance from others though, particularly Cam Banks, who insist that you can only have One God, One Follower, no exceptions. Personally, I like exceptions once and awhile. I agree with you on the Church of Kiri-Jolith being sidelined in importance by the Knights of Solamnia.
The brutes seem too much to be drab. The brutes are even more militaristic! Yea thats what we need, another race bent on taking over the world.. Dragonlance is missing that niche
Well, a lot of that comes from the article of "History of Dragonlance" in which they had an empire with a warrior elite, and a prophecy about a prophet named Amarrel who will lead them to glory.
Personally, I'm just going to view the Brutes as setting up new cities in various places around Ansalon, ala the Vikings, rather than conquering all of Ansalon. The Missing City is just one of many scattered territories which they will hold. As well, I don't see any reason why the Akkad-Dur would bother listening to their Emperor with 5 months of ocean voyage between them and him.
I personally would like to see a little bit more detail in how the Tarmak's are different than humans, besides having small pointed ears and they are tall/muscular.
I liked that the brutes were considered to be beautiful, graceful and powerful. Like Tolkien's elves, only brutal and pragmatic rather than pansy mystics.
All I want... is a Knight to come along.. who acts according to the Knighthood and becomes a hero. I'm talking one that we can follow their deeds and actually empathize with.
Well it requires a mindset of those that want to live up to an ideal. If you can't imagine that one could desire to live up to the ideal of an institution, even if it is in actuality run by humans prone to scandal and corruption. To that end, baby boomers see institutions are things to be smashed, reformed, and started over. Heck, western culture in general, particularly in the United States. It would take the mindset of somebody who says "Hey, this institution has many great things about it, and the only thing it really needs is discipline and attention."
I would *love* to see more of the Tarmak and their culture. But I'd like to see something thats more unique than the "our culture exists to conquer". It might be all right if Dragonlance had no cultures that were pure militaristc.. but it does. So its not exactly needed. I would have much rather seen them more as "Brutes" and a culture more primitive. I dunno, for me its a shame that this was all that was came up with. The good thing now is a Tarmak PC can actually have a background.
I dunno, I dont really think most races are defined enough. As in what makes them different than humans. And when AoM came out, that was the first thing I thought. I looked at the Tarmak write up..and sighed. Because there was nothing to it. Literally nothing. Nothing about their culture. Nothing really about their lives. "They were recruited by Arakian and like to fight". The whole write up in a sentence. And then I look at their stats and think.. again nothing setting them apart. They get pluses to 2 physical stats, and minuses to 2 mental stats. And they can make warpaint for 500 stl? I'm sure each warrior pays this out of his "allowance"
Oh and their favored class is Barbarian. Thats it. f*** man.. anyone could make that write up. Theres literally nothing to this race. I let things go like the Half-kender and Half-elves because I figure.. "eh these people think these races need to be watered down versions of their parents and dont understand it doesnt equal out"... but the Tarmak are a whole different race. And we are given bare bones to define them. *That* and only that reason is why I would encourage everyone to read Return of the Exile. Even if I dont like the culture, it gives *something*.ferratus, yea the second biggest part that ruined the book(after I already got mad at the duel that Linsha ends up doing) is the praying to Kiri-Jolith. Are you kidding me? This lady has grown up all her life without the gods. She knows only the stories her grandparents have basically told her, or I guess Palin too. And *right* when the Gods come back, that split second, she prays to Kiri-Jolith and is granted access to powers?
But yea, I've always seen the Knighthood as followers of Good, venerating the triangle.. or Paladine, Kiri-Jolith, and Habbakuk. They get their powers from all three. Now they get them from two. Isn't it funny that Habbakuk has basically been cast out? I mean no one talks about him when talking about the Knighthood. I find it a shame. I think this also explains how during the Kingpriest, the Knighthood was able to go against Istar at the end. If Knights were basically just clerics of Paladine and got their powers from Paladine, how were they able to defy the Kingpriest? The Kingpriest had to be seen as the top cleric, so how could clerics "under" him be able to not follow him?
I dunno.. I'm just glad the trilogy is done. For people who like these characters who "buck the system", I say you have found your heroine. Grow to love her, but remember.. there are plenty more on the horizon. If theres one thing that Dragonlance loves, its people who dont follow the established rules of their organizations. Basically if you want to be a hero, join an organization and show the world why your way is better and that organization should just do what you do.
I'm inclined to think as Nived does, as well - to me, the best and brightest knights of Krynn's history are the ones that are true to themselves and the ideals of honor above and beyond that of the organization itself, which by virtue of being a collective organization is doomed to fall upon itself until a new icon rises to inspire it.
Cheers,
Cam
I just think its a shame to not see these kind of hero's in the knighthood who uphold the tenets, codes, and culture of their organization. It would kind of be like seeing every wizard not care about the moon gods, not wear their color robes, and not have any other WoHS trait. The organization is there to show typical people. Of course not every person is going to be the same, and not every person will fall into some stereotype. But personally I dont find the want for a knight who actually is a pinnacle of the knighthood as unreasonable.
As to Return of the Exile.. what can I say.. it was very predictable. I had already guessed everything that would pretty much happen. Down to when a character was introduced.. I knew if they would live or die, help her out, etc. I just found it uninteresting. As to the other thoughts, I've already stated them. The Tarmak's still remain mainly without substance.. altho a little culture was added. But as I said before, its a culture that isnt very original. So it kind of was a dissapointment. But now Tarmak PC's actually have a point of reference. I hope to see more novels come out and actually fill in gaps in their background, culture, ideals. "We live to kill" just isnt that interesting when you have a real detailed, more fleshed out culture like the Minotaurs. Sourcebooks detailing the Tarmak would be nice also (altho I secretly wish to see an update for the race in a sourcebook with some substance, but I highly doubt that will happen :D ).
I just think its a shame to not see these kind of hero's in the knighthood who uphold the tenets, codes, and culture of their organization.
My feeling, and I believe there are some who disagree with me (which is perfectly OK) is that these heroes are still upholding the tenets, codes and culture of their organization, but that they struggle through adverse conditions and the nature of their humanity and still come out ahead, succeeding in embodying those traits. We see the truth in the fact that the Oath is more important than the Measure, and that while the Measure is a useful tool in directing the process, the Oath is what makes the hero a knight. Many of the other knights in the novels are relatively mundane, all things considered. You could follow their story, but it'd be uninteresting.
Cheers,
Cam
I think of the Measure as many different parts. While there are very intricate passages that probably every knight doesnt know, there have to passages that outline the general concept and decision making that should go into being a Knight. And I would argue that every Knight would know those passages by heart.
I agree that the Oath is more important, but it doesnt make the Measure obsolete. While maybe a little outdated... it was made by good people, with good intentions, and had lots of good acts come from it.
I really dont think its much to ask for there to be a few knights that are detailed and become heros.. by following the Oath and the Measure. And I mean they are real knights, respected by their fellows, chivralous(sp?), follow the Measure to the best of their ability, think about the knighthood constantly, etc.
Sturm, Vinus Solmanus, Huma, etc are great knights. But they werent typical in any single way. And thats fine. It will happen where there will be nonstandard people in an organization and they will be great characters. All I would like to see though is a few knights detailed who are pretty standard. You can still have great, rich characters and they embody the tenets of the knighthood.
To clarify, when I mention the "true knight"(which is the term I took from people's idea of the PrC), I want a knight who becomes a Rose Knight, traveling and fighting evil, is chivralous, follows the Oath and Measure and when things happen he acts according to what he thinks the Measure would prescribe, worships the gods of good, etc. There is still plenty of room to give him a rich background and life.
At first i thought my dislike for Linsha was clouding my thought pattern. But now I realize that the novels *are* short on knights that are actually what their organization want/need. Yes sometimes we do get snippits of knights who are those "true knights" (the knights who fought Chaos from dragonback), but never is one really detailed and shown as a hero through a book or books.
I refuse to believe that if a knight is detailed that follows the rules and is a "true knight" that he *has* to be mundane. Now maybe most are...but these are creative authors..you can breathe life into a character no matter who he/she is.
I know they aren't knights of solamnia, but if you look in the kingpriest trilogy the knights of the divine hammer tend to embody the ideals of their knighthood and still be interesting characters. Of course I could be mistaken in my perception, but just thought it was worth mentioning. :D
I'd *love* to see a knight that rises through the ranks by being the epitome of what a Knight should be, and from his example the Knights see that him as a leader would not only be good for the things he knows/does, but also because of the example he could provide for other aspiring knights.
But... I'm skeptical. Knights who are good, chivralous, live by the Measure, etc are usually seen as mundane and boring. I dont think it'd be hard to add flavor though..everyone has quirks
The other thing is that even the good are not beyond criticism or conflict. This isn't an argument about having neither of those things with our knightly hero. The argument can be summed up as follows:
1) I want somebody who strives to live up to the ideals of the knighthood, rather than somebody that thinks it is "outdated" according to their own conscience. This means somebody who thinks that the measure is a source of wisdom and precedent to guide his actions and life.
2) I want military professionalism and a sense of history and tradition. This means polished armour, protocol, rules of behavior, an attitude that the end doesn't justify the means, uncompromising principles, death before dishonour.
3) That one can be something other than a utilitarian reformed liberal and still be intelligent, disciplined, heroic and at least attempt to be virtuous.
That is essentially the crux of the complaints of True Blue and myself. Yes, make a flawed hero, but don't ignore what made the Solamnic Knighthood interesting in the first place. By demanding that they be the paragons of good, we're essentially eroding away their very identity, especially by authors who can't conceive of good as being anything else other than utilitarian reformed liberal ethics.
The Knights have a flourishing spiritual, martial, and legal tradition. It is firmly based on the ideals of chivalry, obedience, austerity, discipline, and dignity. It simply bothers me that Linsha (and most recent Solamnics) who have none of these virtues is considered a true knight.
No spells for the sword or rose. So then just truged through with their moral codes such as Sturm. Then bam the gods are back things start to get back to normal for them except they have a new enemy to face KoT/KoN with a different set of rules and disaplines. Then bam chaos war guess what no gods again. Back to trying to exist with no back up. Ranks are filled with just about anyone because the were depleted. Trudging through trying to be a force for good but with all the defeats they took in the face of normal people they just didn't look credible the lost their biggest bastions were the were in control for centuries. High Clerist tower and Palantius for examples. Then bam War of Souls. Gods return now there is only two of their divinities. What I
didn't like in regards to RoE was Linsha was punished so to speak because of the Measure. To me the organization should revamp the measure because it is outdated alot of the "Laws" do not apply to the world as it is now. Just like in our world where certain "laws" just don't apply anymore. Such as no tying your horse in front of the court house during such and such hours. I just think they need to update the measure for the here and now with a little more leniency. Incorporate it to just the two gods instead of the three. Once that happens I think the Knighthood will shine even brighter in the future.
Although, I dont agree with you at all really. Yes the knights did start to fall a little right before the War of the Lance.. but that is only a small period of time in Dragonlance history. And there were still Knights who were true Knights. To think that there can't be one or two good trilogies or even stories about these people is ludacris.
Also, I think youa re wrong about the Linsha thing. I dont care if you did revamp the Measure.. the taking part in a personal duel that you dont *have* to do would be against any kind of Measure. Or at least I would hope it was. Basically you want to revamp the Measure, and take out any kind of rules. This makes the Knights no better than just a group of people, with no formal rules, culture, etc. This I do not want to see. As I said before, I dont care what the Measure looks like, I could never accept that a "true knight" would accept a personal challenge like she did.
Basically the number one idea I always hear from people is that the Measure needs to be revamped and updated. And it almost seems when people say this, they want to get rid of the rules. Whats the point of having the Measure then? Thatw as one of the parts I liked about the Knights and thought it was unique. Now I do agree that their Measure needs to be polished off, but personally I dont want much to change. I think a lot of times it wasnt the Measure that made the Knighthood start slipping downhill, but the prevailing attitudes that started happening in the Knights themselves. A few started thinking one way, cultivated more that way, etc..and before you knew it a lot of knights were like Derek Crownguard. Its not so much a problem with the Measure, but more of a problem with the Knights and the time they lived in.
I dunno.. too many people it seems think the revising of the Measure will "fix everything" and I think this is fallacy. The Measure took lots of time to make, refine, etc and in its heart is truly good. A Knight could be a very very good person by following the old Measure. Also, in all honesty, just how much has changed since Vinus Solamnus time? Krynn doesnt change nearly as fast as our world. I just dont see things that much different.
With that said, the inclusion of people without noble blood, maybe different races, seeing support from white mages, etc.. would all be good changes. I realize that its already been changed to allow non-noble blood and I think thats a great step foward.
Also I disagree that the Gods were the Knights "back-up". They are/were very religious and one of their main beliefs has always been in the gods. Of course it will hit them a little hard when the gods leave, but I think they do just fine. This is why I dont want the Knighthood to be another "specialty priest" of Kiri-Jolith.. because the Knighthood has existed without the gods and to a Knight I want the Knighthood to come first.
Again when you look at it, the world hasnt changed too much throughout Krynn years. Not like our world. I just dont see that many changes as needed. And again I'd like to reiterate, no matter what the Measure was, I dont think Linsha's activities would fall in line with the "knightly customs". And if the Measure was changed so they would, I think I'd just give up on the Knights because the Knighthood wouldnt be that noble, chivralous, holy organization it was founded on. And that would be sad. If you want a "modern", do what needs to be done, outcome is what matters organization, join the Legion of Steel.
So, while it's fine to make all kinds of claims about the Measure and what it needs to be, I think it's useful to note that the Solamnic knights were created with a flaw, and that flaw is likely to continue.
Cheers,
Cam
I don't mind if people can't live up to the ideal of the knighthood all the time. I don't mind exceptions in cases of extreme emergency. What I object to is the proclamation that Linsha Majere and a lot of other Knights in the 5th Age are "good" because they reject the old ideals of honour.
That would be bad enough. I would simply assume the knighthood is corrupt.
Then my intelligence really gets insulted. I'm expected to believe that is a more efficient military if people debate the command structure based on individual adventuring victories. I'm expected to beleive that "freedom" is more important than responsible government and legal norms. I'm expected to believe that sneaking through the shadows is the real way war gets won, rather than military discipline with emphasis on logistics, proper maintenance of equipment, and training.
I instead read stories about the "Clandestine Circles" which are active in every corner of Krynn spying and scheming to seize control of far flung territories rather than fullfilling their obligations to defend and liberate Solamnia. I instead read stories where you have Knights of the Rose who don't know how to properly use a sword. I instead read stories where Knights resemble theives, and levels in Rogue, but they are "true knights" and the new ideal of knighthood.
Stuff it. I'm never going to accept them as anything else than corruptions of the knighthood. Give me someone flawed, but give me someone who tries. Someone who puts in the effort to live up to the ideal of the knighthood. That is all I ask.
Every organization in any world has flaws to it. That happens. It almost sounds like people say you dont see Knights who follow the ideals of the Knighthood because the system is flawed. Thats crap. I've seen many WoHS who followed the rules of the Conclave, the gods of magic, etc. And I've seen ones who have practically spit upon it. And others who have "followed", but still did their own thing only paying lip service.
But when it comes to the Knighthood, all we get are the ones who say they are Knights, but dont follow any of the rules, traditions, culture, etc of the Knighthood. That is just dang annoying. They are always the ones who buck the system, who just happen to know better than a stuffy old Measure. Yea well maybe the Measure can't say something about every situation, but that thing was made by good people with very good intentions. I dont like how so many knights just seem to dismiss it.. they barely even take it into consideration. Thats annoying.
And I do realize that during the War of the Lance they fell from grace. Thats fine.. I accept that. But if there can be all these exceptions where these knights dont follow the Measure, why can't we have an exception where one does? Dragonlance is full of many different eras. Even before the War of the Lance, before the Cataclysm.. we can't get one detailed? How about in the 5th age when the gods were gone, and a Knight who thought the Knighthood and its goals were what was needed for Good to flourish again and to combat evil. Where are all these knights?
I've almost come to the conclusion that people just feed off of other's responses. What I mean is I see a couple people feel that the Measure is outdated, and then everyone echoes them without even consciously thinking about it. "The Measure needs to be revised, so the Knights kind of suck..and they arent ever noble". Um no.. thats just weird. Or.. that Knights who follow their culture, the Measure, etc are stuffy. And then other people think that a good Knight couldnt be detailed because it was just be boring. Yea right.. breathe some life into the guy/girl. Its not hard, we have talented writers on the team for writing Dragonlance novels. I think some of these authors are the same way, and see the knights as stuffy. So they dont even try to write about a true knight. They just always make the one who bucks the system.. because the Knighthood needs pizazz!
I dunno, the Knights of Solamnia were one of my favorite parts of Dragonlance and I hate to see them get turned into what exactly the Legion of Steel is. I like that organization also, but they are two different things. I liked the idea of a nation of Knights.. not beholden to any king, etc. I don't even want them beholden to a God, which is one of the main reasons I've argued so much about the Knight of the Sword PrC.
I dunno.. its as if everyone just accepts things the way they are. "The measure sucks.. so the Knights suck.. so what?" "Regular knights are stuffy.. they are boring.. so what?" Blah.. it doesnt have to be like this. I want my crusading, holy, chivralous, knight in shining armour.. but unfortunately it seems all of those can't survive in a "modern" knighthood =\
I dunno, the Knights of Solamnia were one of my favorite parts of Dragonlance and I hate to see them get turned into what exactly the Legion of Steel is.
I do have to wonder how they ended up one of your favorite parts of Dragonlance. Who do you think of when you think of a true knight? I don't mean by my responses to imply that the knights of Solamnia are a write-off - I think that they serve an incredibly valuable purpose in the story, as that potential for greatness realized in the acts of singular heroes. I think the problem folks are having is that the singular heroes aren't embodying that flawed and outdated Measure in order to accomplish their heroic aims.
I believe we'll see some major changes in Doug's books. Believe it or not, I'd love to see some knights who act the way you're asking them to act. I love characters like Linsha and Gerard and others not because they're good knights (even Mary Herbert admits Linsha isn't a good knight) but because they're good characters. This, clearly, leaves room for knights who are good characters and good knights, but we'll have to wait and see if any of those become as significant.
Cheers,
Cam
I guess when I saw the "flaw" in them in the Chronicles, I assumed that this would be "gotten over" with time. Yes they did turn out of date for a time, but I always assumed this would be corrected. I didnt realize that this out of date flaw was supposed to be there for every knight, except the ones who are "modern" and buck the system.
I guess I liked the Knights of Solamnia for what they could be, past and present than exactly what they were in the Chronicles. They had so much potential, especially since they opened up the ranks to non-nobles. I guess I liked the potential for the Knighthood more than just what they were during the War of the Lance. I liked their whole discipline and tactics also, with their being a "code" to live by. You take the code away, I think you take the knighthood away.
Linsha should have never HAD the Knight class! She had class levels in ROGUE for chist sake! The Rogue Class is totally apprehensive to an honorble class like a Knight.
Sure. Although, the Solamnics have been sneaking about in cities undercover for over three hundred years by this point, so they're getting pretty good at it and Linsha's not exactly the first to do it.
The Legion of Steel borrowed this idea from the Solamnic knights, you know.
Cheers,
Cam
This of course does not mean that there wasn't covert action during this time, but it was a side effect of this reality of persecution. When the Knights gained open acceptance again, the shift to using the Clandestine Circles for spying and sabatoge was a corruption of knightly ideals. This is especially true when they started using it to gain power in places where they had no business being, namely Sanction.
To me, a Knight who had Rogue levels would be someone who values the skills from the class. A Knight who uses Sneak Attack doesnt use it as a way to surprise the person but they use it to hit vital part of an enemies body. To me this is very valid. Now granted a Knight usually has heavy armor, but it is not required. Evasion is another ability that would help out a Knight. A skilled Knight is definatel possible. Now it may be an exception when it comes to most Knights, but I by far dont think its "not possible" and "wrong".
The Clandestine circles, I'm going to have to agree with ferratus. I dont mind them having to exist in order to just survive, because throughout their history the Knights have had to hide their identities before just to survive. But I dont like the planning of a stealthy, clandestine way of taking over cities. To me, this is where politics takes over and the chivalry, noble, etc is taken out. And I dont like to see this. I just can't see most knights "sinking to their level", as in doing sneaky things in order to gain control of a city.
I dunno.. I just think we are at a crux of time where we'll either see the Knights shine like I think they should, or be more "modern" and "with the times" and they will never be that chivralous, knight in shining armor, paramount of virtue kind of organization.
The Oath is common to all Knights. It is, "My Honor is my Life." It governs all that a Knight is and does. It is his life's blood and more sacred to him than life itself.
The Measure of a Knight is taken by how he upholds the Oath. We judge a Knight against the Measure and by the Measure. The Measure of the Rose deals with holy wisdom among the Knights. The Measure of the Sword deals with the discipline of Honor among the Knights. And the Measure of the Crown deals with the disciplines of Loyalty and Obedience.
True Knights, then, look deep within themselves to act, and their acts are judged by how they uphold the Oath. A true Knight relies on the Measure to tell him what honor is, however, based on the writings of Vinas Solamnus and others since. The lesson of the War of the Lance was that the spirit of the Measure had left it. It had become rigid and unbending. For the knights of Solamnia to truly shine, DLA states, each must look to his Order, the disciplines espoused and championed by that Order, and his personal integrity, courage, steadfastness against adversity, persistence, and noble cause. I don't think any of this is difficult to admire in a character. I don't, however, think many of the knights in the Orders rise to meet those ideals.
This really is a good discussion, True Blue. Knights are hard to understand, and often hard to portray. It is too easy to make them stuff-shirted armor-clad arrogant bastards with sticks up their rear ends, and just as easy to have them be reckless and brash adventurers trying to live up to a set of ideals they constantly clash with. I'm looking forward to seeing what Doug does with them in his books.
Cheers,
Cam
I don't, however, think many of the knights in the Orders rise to meet those ideals.
Well there is meeting those ideals, and there is meeting those ideals enough.
In our generation, hypocrisy is the greatest sin. It is better to have no morals or ideals than to claim some sort of moral code and fail to live up to it. There are many reasons as to why this is, but the one I personally accept as sounding correct (with no real evidence) is that it stems from moral relativism and extremist individualism. Since there is no authoritative declarations of morality the public accepts, a person can only be held to the moral standard one sets for oneself.
I was reminded of this recently when I was driving with a few friends and saw a church sign that said "Going to church is not enough". They thought this was the greatest thing, because of their conception that Christianity is just a bunch of self congratulating weekly get togethers for the bourgosie.
I laughed in their faces. I pointed out that most of the people there probably were employed, loved their children, and moderate in their consumption of sex and alcohol. Furthermore, simply by being involved in the institution they were setting time aside during their week for mediatation and self examination of their moral character. As well, the church provided a vehicle for charity and social justice. To that end, the people were fullfilling many of the obligations of the Christian faith, even if they were only participating rather passively. I then asked my friends then when was that last time they set time aside for any of the above (except employment) despite their declared socialist leanings.
To bring this back to Dragonlance, I don't think anyone is expecting the Knighthood to be a saint-making factory. I can even buy periods of corruption infecting the culture of the knighthood. I do expect periods however when the body of the knighthood fullfills the obligations of the measure as best they can being human.
This really is a good discussion, True Blue. Knights are hard to understand, and often hard to portray. It is too easy to make them stuff-shirted armor-clad arrogant bastards with sticks up their rear ends, and just as easy to have them be reckless and brash adventurers trying to live up to a set of ideals they constantly clash with.
I'm wondering if this is because few gamers or authors have any perspective on what it is to be a priest, an aristocrat or a soldier. It is easier to revert to a stereotype, and a negative stereotype if you do not particularly like any of these institutions.
See, we don't have this problem with the wizards. When I read them, they seem like genuine people. I think this is largely because the game designers and authors share a background with wizards, namely being intellectual, academic, and slightly outcast.
Hmm... you know, I've only seen one academic Knight of Solamnia, and that was by you Cam in the DL DM's Screen. Strange, since they seem to be philosophers and legal scholars. I wonder if this is a reflection of the rejection of the intellectual history of religious institutions by contemporary society?