Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Sysane Feb 14, 2005 10:01:24	I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to how wyverns fit in DL? They are dragons and they do exist on Krynn. Are there any explanations as to their existence in terms of the Krynn creation mythos (Cursed dragons maybe)? Is there any info pertaining to them in any DL material?
#2 cam_banks Feb 14, 2005 10:11:55	They're an offshoot, regarded more or less as a sort of stupid cousin to the true dragons. I don't know that they were that common before the Age of Despair, when they started seeing use as mounts and guards by the Dragonarmies, but there's no reason why they wouldn't. Because they don't breathe fire or cast spells, it's possible that the whole "dragons are myth and legend" thing didn't apply to them. Cheers, Cam
#3 Sysane Feb 14, 2005 10:21:05	Thats pretty much the MM generic definition of wyvern. I was looking for a juicer DL explanation. Dragons are a dominate part of Krynn's origin (needless to say). I figured there would/should be a better and more defined reasoning for wyverns other than "they're a distant cousin to true dragons" in terms to DL.
#4 cam_banks Feb 14, 2005 10:31:24	Thats pretty much the MM generic definition of wyvern. I was looking for a juicer DL explanation. Sorry. It still works, though. Cheers, Cam
#5 valharic Feb 14, 2005 10:34:36	Did Wyvren's disappear along with the dragons and return during the War of the Lance also? Or have they always been around?
#6 brimstone Feb 14, 2005 10:49:43	Being reptilian in nature (probably a lot closer to reptiles than dragons are) I like to view wyverns as ancient creatures from the Age of Starbirth. I really view the first age of Krynn as a world dominated by reptiles: Dragons, bakali, dinosaurs, hatori, wyverns, anything reptilian.
#7 Sysane Feb 14, 2005 10:51:44	Sorry. It still works, though... In a weak sort of way. That's like stating draconians are humanoid offshoots of true dragons period. No further explanation needed. How bland is that. DL being a world that has a reasoning for almost everything draconic on it would be better suited to have its own defined explanation for wyverns IMO. Be it that they're a cursed group of dragons due to angering the gods, a wizard's creation, or a hybrid caused from inter species breeding. Some people are cool with the MM definition, which is fine. I just figured a DL favored wyvern would be a good thing.
#8 dragontooth Feb 14, 2005 11:19:09	In a weak sort of way. That's like stating draconians are humanoid offshoots of true dragons period. No further explanation needed. How bland is that. DL being a world that has a reasoning for almost everything draconic on it would be better suited to have its own defined explanation for wyverns IMO. Be it that they're a cursed group of dragons due to angering the gods, a wizard's creation, or a hybrid caused from inter species breeding. Some people are cool with the MM definition, which is fine. I just figured a DL favored wyvern would be a good thing. Well make up a story about a group of very young black dragons that came across the grey gem. The grey gem warpped the black dragons into wyvern's. Or you can insert any type of dragon. The grey gem did mess with alot of different races. Why not dragons?
#9 Sysane Feb 14, 2005 11:35:05	Well make up a story about a group of very young black dragons that came across the grey gem. The grey gem warpped the black dragons into wyvern's. Or you can insert any type of dragon. The grey gem did mess with alot of different races. Why not dragons? Thats pretty good. Thats the type of answers and insight I was looking for. Thanks Anyone else have any interesting theories?
#10 clarkvalentine Feb 14, 2005 11:46:29	Anyone else have any interesting theories? You could say they're the decendants of a much earlier attempt at creating draconians. A thousand years ago, a wizard tried fusing dragons and a mortal race, but couldn't quite get it right - wyverns were the best he could produce. He abandoned the project, but not before a dozen or two wyverns escaped intot he wild.
#11 Sysane Feb 14, 2005 12:31:02	You could say they're the decendants of a much earlier attempt at creating draconians. A thousand years ago, a wizard tried fusing dragons and a mortal race, but couldn't quite get it right - wyverns were the best he could produce. He abandoned the project, but not before a dozen or two wyverns escaped intot he wild. Not bad. I'm thinking of elaborating on the Grey Gem theory. Maybe Takhisis charged a group of black dragons in capturing the Gem during its erratic flight across Krynn? In their attempt, they were warped by it into a wyvern like creature as Dragontooth suggested.
#12 brimstone Feb 14, 2005 12:59:33	You could say they're the decendants of a much earlier attempt at creating draconians. I'm still having a hard time seeing wyverns as draconic at all. I mean...fundamentally they're different. Brains and what not aside, they don't have six appendages. I really see them as a more evolved reptile than a de-evolved dragon. All stemming from this great reptillian age that pre-dates everything else. Their civilization was ancient and in ruins long before the elves, ogres, and humans even took shape. Maybe the wyvern is Dragonlance's link between the reptile and the bird. LOL! Sorry.
#13 Sysane Feb 14, 2005 13:18:28	I'm still having a hard time seeing wyverns as draconic at all. I mean...fundamentally they're different. Brains and what not aside, they don't have six appendages. If I remember correctly back in 2e black dragons and wyverns were depicted to be similar in form. That being only having wings and hind legs.
#14 zombiegleemax Feb 14, 2005 20:12:14	Consider this folks: In AUTUMN'S TWILIGHT, Caramon makes that comment that "There are probably so many Griffons on Krynnn" which implies that by the time of the Cataclysm, even Griffon's are thought to be creatures of legend, save by the Silvanesti and Qualinesti, I imagine.
#15 iltharanos Feb 14, 2005 22:19:40	Did Wyvren's disappear along with the dragons and return during the War of the Lance also? Or have they always been around? In the Kingpriest trilogy of novels, wyverns were still present on Ansalon, though quite rare. Thus they were not banished along with the true dragons at the conclusion of the Third Dragon War, or so it seems.
#16 kalanth Feb 14, 2005 23:42:01	The explanation that I like to use is something that works well with the history of the DL I run. Of course, I love to add in those many campaigns that I have done on Krynn before, so Wyverns ended up incorperated in that. A group of adventures found Taladas, and charted the way there. While on the lost continent they found a nest of eggs. Not knowing what they were but figuring that they might be of some value they smuggled them off the continent. As they neared the ports of Palanthas the ships were battered by a massive storm. The storm ripped the boats apart and scattered the adventures to the varies depths of the ocean, along with the cargo of the ship. The eggs managed to survive the ship wreck, and floated to the shore. A short while later, while going unnoticed on a stretch of lonely beach, the Eggs hatched and baby Wyverns were born. I figured that they were reptilian in nature, so I gave the Wyvern the average birth rate of a standard crocodile. Those that hatched and live to be old enough to reproduce did just that, and eventually the Wyvern population grew on Abanasinia. So much so that Wyverns are now as common in the Solamnia area as the hippogriff or griffon in other regions. Not every day will you see one, but its not likely to go a lifetime without seeing one either.
#17 zombiegleemax Feb 15, 2005 1:19:11	I'm pretty sure there's an explanation provided for wyverns in Spring Dawning somewhere.
#18 daedavias_dup Feb 15, 2005 7:38:12	I'm pretty sure there's an explanation provided for wyverns in Spring Dawning somewhere. Yes, Bakaris was going to bring Laurana to Kitiara on the back of one.
#19 Sysane Feb 15, 2005 8:32:46	Yes, Bakaris was going to bring Laurana to Kitiara on the back of one. Thats really not much of an explanation.
#20 wolffenjugend_dup Feb 15, 2005 8:50:00	What's with all the negativity? If you want an answer that satisifes you, just make one up. It's called being creative. The people at Sovereign Press have better things to do than sit around catering to your every whim. Do what DMs have been doing for decades: make it up.
#21 Sysane Feb 15, 2005 9:07:36	What's with all the negativity? If you want an answer that satisifes you, just make one up. It's called being creative. The people at Sovereign Press have better things to do than sit around catering to your every whim. Do what DMs have been doing for decades: make it up. Huh? What are you talking about? I wasn't asking for a special SP reasoning for wyvrens. I was asking what other people's thoughts were on them in general.
#22 clarkvalentine Feb 15, 2005 9:37:03	Thats really not much of an explanation. Every GM at one time or another has said "Plot device." in response to a player asking "How does that work?" ;)
#23 Sysane Feb 15, 2005 9:54:04	Every GM at one time or another has said "Plot device." in response to a player asking "How does that work?" ;) I hear ya. I was more responding to Andre La Roche statement of Spring Dawning and it offering an explanation for wyverns. It seems that they just appeared in that book vs that it offered an origin for them.
#24 zombiegleemax Feb 15, 2005 17:22:01	I hear ya. I was more responding to Andre La Roche statement of Spring Dawning and it offering an explanation for wyverns. It seems that they just appeared in that book vs that it offered an origin for them. Actually, I'm pretty sure it did say something about their background. However seeing as it's been years since I read it and I don't have a copy on hand, I wasn't able to get much more specific than that.
#25 frostdawn Feb 15, 2005 17:26:41	The huldrefolk guy that was working for Skie (Khellendros) created 2 wyverns for him as a gift. He later created giant scorpions. It was in Jean Rabe's trilogy where she introduced the dragon overlords (can't remember which book it was)
#26 zombiegleemax Feb 16, 2005 15:36:05	DoSD describes the wyverns in terms of their behavior and appearance, but it doesn't go into the history or creation. Just describes their bad temperment and small brains, but trained loyalty to their master. They are often referred to as "cousins" of dragons, but I agree that the similarities are minimal. The gray gem idea seems to work, but then again, any occurance in DL can always be attributed to that troublesome peice of chaos. What, there was a drow mentioned in one of the books but those don't exist on Krynn? Blame it on the gray gem... same thing with that orc in that other book... ;)
#27 Sysane Feb 16, 2005 15:40:11	there was a drow mentioned in one of the books but those don't exist on Krynn I'm one of the few that actually enjoyed the adventure Wild Elves. :P
#28 true_blue Feb 16, 2005 16:10:45	I'm starting to really loathe the "Graygem theory". It almost seems that every single thing is created from that thing. I almost found it unoriginal. Not tryin to knock anyone.. but seriously thats the first thing everyone says when someone asks for a background. I dunno.. it just bothers me heh
#29 cam_banks Feb 16, 2005 22:17:49	I'm starting to really loathe the "Graygem theory". It almost seems that every single thing is created from that thing. I almost found it unoriginal. It's Krynn's theory of evolution. Not everybody likes it, but it's there. Other backgrounds for races and creatures were touched on in the DL DM's Screen booklet, and include bakali hybridization, high ogre experimentation, and magical accidents or experiments (such as those conducted by Galan Dracos and Fistandantilus). Given that change and Chaos go hand in hand, however, you're unlikely to see the Graygem see less of a role in future. Cheers, Cam
#30 kalanth Feb 16, 2005 22:22:09	Why not use the Proto-creature subtype on a few Wyverns, and that way you can assume that somewhere in the past a wizard was working on creating this creature. Eventually he succeded, or maybe not (no wyverns, but lots of Proto-Wyverns). Creative things like that are why Cam and his buddy's (can't remember who worked on the Bestiary) put a template of that nature there, I am sure. It does away with the greygem problem, and gives you a fair reason for their exsistance.
#31 Sysane Feb 17, 2005 12:30:07	It does away with the greygem problem, and gives you a fair reason for their exsistance. I had no problem with the Greygem theory. I actually prefer that one.
#32 kalanth Feb 17, 2005 14:27:02	I had no problem with the Greygem theory. I actually prefer that one. Oh see, now you are just trying to make my head hurt. And here I am thinking I was all special and came up with a pretty cool idea. :P
#33 Sysane Feb 17, 2005 14:32:08	Oh see, now you are just trying to make my head hurt. And here I am thinking I was all special and came up with a pretty cool idea. :P I have no problem with your idea. Its a logical one, but I'm more partial to the Greygem theory. Don't take offense to that.