Cheers,
Cam
Instead I use paladins as direct emmisarries and holy warriors of the god, generaly limited to celestials. I also use the Alternate Paladins from the Unearthed Arcana for the Evil dieites, an apply them commonly to devils.
I think this gives the paladin more of the feel I wanted for them, mainly as a rare, elite chosen of the gods, not anyone who can swing a sword and happens to be pious.
Monks are much the same way. A rare character, indeed--but certainly present. Margaret proved that with the character Rhys in Amber & Ashes.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
So you could easily have paladins in barbarian lands, for example.
Now where's my spirit-horse? ;)
Which begs the question, should there be some sort of "paladin PrC" availble for nonhumans? Or could other existing PrCs be used to emulate the paladins abilities and standing? If so, what are those PrCs?
In DragonLance, I have used Paladin's in the past, but only in the part as a major storyline, where someone at some point of a major quest would receive some sort of "vision" or revelation that made them a Paladin.
Those that I would consider Paladin's would include Huma, Cathan Twice-Borne, and that's about it so far. It is really about going a step beyond that.
In the same manner, I use BlackGaurds as the same thing when it comes to Takhisis (although some of the Knights of Neraka classes could fill the same role) and then I guess there needs to be something for the god's of Neutrality.
I have brought master runesmith's into my campaign. While I do so because I like porting things over from WARHAMMER: FANTASY, I also do so by portraying them in the same manner that a Paladin would be to Paladine or a BlackGaurd would be to Takhisis: Essentially a Paladin of Reorx is what a Master RuneSmith is.
Tamora Amberleaf
I'd try to steer players wanting to play paladins to the knighthood first ... but I see no reason not to have a paladin option. But like was written above, it's not dissallowed, just not overtly encouraged.
What I found was that PCs wanted to take paladin in order to shortcut to the KoC PrC without taking a level of cleric. That didn't sit to well with me.
Once they start as a Knight of the Sword, they start gaining spells as sort of "powers". I already think that the Kights of Solamnia step on the clerigy of Kiri-Jolith's toes as as it is. I just think it could cause way too much trouble if something every happend within the Kiri-Jolith clergy like Paladine's with the Kingpriest.
I dunno.. to me it annoys me that you have to have a level first. Others may like it..who knows.
Personally if someone would want to playa Paladin in order to get in the KoS, I have no problem with it. I've found my players would rather have the figher levels for the feats. But then again..I dont see too many good PC's in my campaign, so I dont worry about much :D
While Lay on Hands and Divine Grace are really good abilities(also with 1 Smite), I think I'd rather have the two domains, with first level cleric spells. Any spells I have memorized can automatically be switched to Healing spells. And the two domains are on par with Divine Grace. Most people I know would at least take War so they get the Weapon Focus. But the Paladin does get a +1 to hit every level. But then you'd have a few levels of fighter and have several feats to help fighting. Who knows..I guess it just depends on what kind of character you wanted.
I dunno, personally as I said I dont see how Paladin would really be a shortcut. I wouldnt have too much of a problem with someone being a Paladin before becoming a KoS... *shrug* it happens
eh I was just looking over the KoS PrC's.. Sysane how exactly was a Paladin shortcutting by taking the Paladin class? I mean the requirement for Knight of the Sword is a +4 Will, which isn't easy to do when you combine Paladin/Knight of the Crown levels. I guess if yout ake that requirement away, I could see it.
Reduce the Will save requirement to +2 then require the Iron Will feat and you've got it.
I was just wondering, by the rules as written, how Paladin helped to shortcut to Knight of the Sword.
It doesn't. The Will save will get you every time.
Which is why the variant spellcasting system in War of the Lance should say that the Will save should be removed.
It doesn't. The Will save will get you every time.
Which is why the variant spellcasting system in War of the Lance should say that the Will save should be removed.
So your saying that a WoTL KoS has different requirements? I really have not looked at the book since I am not running or in a DL campaign (and don't plan on going back to the WoTL). I would still like to see the Knights of the Crown as a 20 lvl class with KoS and KoR as PrCs, but that is something I will have to work on another time.
So your saying that a WoTL KoS has different requirements? I really have not looked at the book since I am not running or in a DL campaign (and don't plan on going back to the WoTL).
What I'm referring to is a sidebar on variant spellcasting in WotL. Basically, you drop the divine spellcaster requirement for Sword Knight, then progress as a cleric (minus domains) on your spellcasting as you go up in level. If you go to Rose Knight using this model, you progress at half-spell progression. If you do take levels in a divine spellcasting class, then Sword Knight levels stack.
So there's a modification that the divine spellcaster level is dropped. That should also read that the Will Save should requirement for Sword Knights should be dropped too.
I would still like to see the Knights of the Crown as a 20 lvl class with KoS and KoR as PrCs, but that is something I will have to work on another time.
There's a few variants like that on the Nexus already. I believe James O'Rance did one such variant.
I dunno, personally as I said I dont see how Paladin would really be a shortcut. I wouldnt have too much of a problem with someone being a Paladin before becoming a KoS... *shrug* it happens
I was referring to the spell casting requirement. Perhaps shortcut was not the appropriate term. What I meant was if you stick with straight paladin you min/max your fighting potential and still meet the requirements of KoS without taking a single level of cleric.
As a player in Sysane's campaign I would have personally preferred the paladin route. I always viewed Sword Knights as more paladin and less clerical in nature-I think this is how it was back in 2e, maybe?
When the class was originally written for 1st edition AD&D, the way classes worked was a little different. The game had just seen a little revision thanks to Unearthed Arcana, so you had the "core" classes (Fighter, Magic-User, Cleric, Thief, Cavalier) and subclasses of those classes (Druid was a subclass of Cleric, Assassin was a subclass of Thief). Paladins, which had formerly been a subclass of Fighter, had been filed under Cavalier when the Cavalier was officially made a class with Unearthed Arcana. Knights of Solamnia, similarly, were filed under Cavalier and had a number of the same traits, benefits and features.
Because it wasn't much of a stretch to have a subclass of Cavalier with holy powers (since they already had paladins) I believe Tracy and the others working on Dragonlance Adventures decided that the Sword knight would have paladin-like abilities (although they only prepared their cleric spells once a week, quite a setback) and the Rose knight would be a sort of super-specialist in weapons and armor. The Crown knight was more or less a sort of cavalier variant.
It should be noted that Rose knights didn't get spells in 1st edition. You chose to move on to the Order of the Rose before you even got spellcasting ability as a Sword knight. In 2nd edition, too, there generally isn't any assumption that Rose knights will have spells. It's not until SAGA that Knights of the Rose are required to have even better ranking in the mysticism-associated attribute (Spirit) than the Sword knights, and are better spellcasters by default as a result.
Cheers,
Cam
As a player in Sysane's campaign I would have personally preferred the paladin route. I always viewed Sword Knights as more paladin and less clerical in nature-I think this is how it was back in 2e, maybe?
Instead he's going the ranger route to get there. Damn loophole ;)
Instead he's going the ranger route to get there. Damn loophole ;)
Then he will need to be a ranger of Kiri-Jolith. KJ grants the Sword knights their powers, not Habbakuk.
Cheers,
Cam
Then he will need to be a ranger of Kiri-Jolith. KJ grants the Sword knights their powers, not Habbakuk.
Cheers,
Cam
Why not both? Habbakuk for the ranger spells, and Kiri-Jolith for the Sword Knight ones. The Knights revere both those gods after all.
Why not both? Habbakuk for the ranger spells, and Kiri-Jolith for the Sword Knight ones. The Knights revere both those gods after all.
I'm sure it's a matter of Krynn's rather rigid and jealous gods. No extracurricular casting allowed, not canonically anyway.
I'm sure it's a matter of Krynn's rather rigid and jealous gods. No extracurricular casting allowed, not canonically anyway.
It would make more sense that the two gods (3 when Paladine was a god) to pool their spell granting since the KoS payed homage to them both. Especialy being gods of good.
While it's true the Solamnic knights revere Paladine, Kiri-Jolith and Habbakuk, this is not the same as having them as their patrons. It's yet another reason why Sword knights should probably be the only knights with spellcasting.
Cheers,
Cam
Nobody can have more than one patron deity granting them spells or spell-like abilities. It's the reason you can't be a cleric of Paladine and a wizard of High Sorcery. Similarly, you can't be a druid of Chislev and a cleric of Sirrion, or any other combination.
While it's true the Solamnic knights revere Paladine, Kiri-Jolith and Habbakuk, this is not the same as having them as their patrons. It's yet another reason why Sword knights should probably be the only knights with spellcasting.
I always viewed it more that KoS received their spells from the "Solamnic Pantheon", That consisting of Paladine, Kiri-Jolith and Habbakuk, rather than an individual god. I don't know if thats possible mechanics wise, but regardless if it is or isn't it makes more sense for flavor and logic purposes IMO.
I always viewed it more that KoS received their spells from the "Solamnic Pantheon", That consisting of Paladine, Kiri-Jolith and Habbakuk, rather than an individual god. I don't know if thats possible mechanics wise, but regardless if it is or isn't it makes more sense for flavor and logic purposes IMO.
I doubt it would break anything to houserule that, but it might open the door to someone wanting to be a multiclassed cleric of Majere and a White Robe, for instance, which seems a lot more of a violation of the spirit of the setting.
One of my PCs is a minotaur mystic who worships both kiri and sargas. it's pretty cool. He is delusional and thinks his power comes from both of them, but it's all internal =)
I doubt it would break anything to houserule that, but it might open the door to someone wanting to be a multiclassed cleric of Majere and a White Robe, for instance, which seems a lot more of a violation of the spirit of the setting.
True, but I'm not talking about multiclassing, I'm referring to who and how KoS are granted spells.
True, but I'm not talking about multiclassing, I'm referring to who and how KoS are granted spells.
Right, but if you can get spells from more than one diety in one place, why not another? A give-em-an-inch-they'll-take-a-mile sort of player might ask.
It's a dilemma easily solved by the Righteous GM Smackdown of "No," so it doesn't have to be a big deal.
It's a dilemma easily solved by the Righteous GM Smackdown of "No," so it doesn't have to be a big deal.
Agreed
Right, but if you can get spells from more than one diety in one place, why not another? A give-em-an-inch-they'll-take-a-mile sort of player might ask.
It's a dilemma easily solved by the Righteous GM Smackdown of "No," so it doesn't have to be a big deal.
The basic assumption for Dragonlance is that the gods cannot share the committed soul of a single mortal. A mortal gives up some of his free will in an exchange of power for faith, and splitting it between multiple gods goes against this key assumption.
Obviously, yes, there's nothing to stop you from having multiple patron deities in your own campaign. I tend to assume people will change or houserule something if they don't like it, so I only present the official point of view in most cases.
Cheers,
Cam
The basic assumption for Dragonlance is that the gods cannot share the committed soul of a single mortal. A mortal gives up some of his free will in an exchange of power for faith, and splitting it between multiple gods goes against this key assumption.
Obviously, yes, there's nothing to stop you from having multiple patron deities in your own campaign. I tend to assume people will change or houserule something if they don't like it, so I only present the official point of view in most cases.
Maybe this will be clearer once The Holy Order of Stars source books comes out.
I always viewed it more that KoS received their spells from the "Solamnic Pantheon", That consisting of Paladine, Kiri-Jolith and Habbakuk, rather than an individual god. I don't know if thats possible mechanics wise, but regardless if it is or isn't it makes more sense for flavor and logic purposes IMO.
I completly understand Cam's point, and it has been that way for the longest time that I can remember. However, with the introduction of alternater rules for worship thanks to Eberron, and their system of worshiping all gods through the church, I think I would agree with Sysane and say that the rules have changed a little bit with the loss of Paladine from the pantheon. I don't really think that Kiri-Jolith and Habbakuk would complain to much if the solamnics worshipped and were granted spells from both in that sense.
I completly understand Cam's point, and it has been that way for the longest time that I can remember. However, with the introduction of alternater rules for worship thanks to Eberron, and their system of worshiping all gods through the church, I think I would agree with Sysane and say that the rules have changed a little bit with the loss of Paladine from the pantheon. I don't really think that Kiri-Jolith and Habbakuk would complain to much if the solamnics worshipped and were granted spells from both in that sense.
That's how Eberron works. It's not how Dragonlance works. You will note that even in the Player's Handbook it reassures players that they don't need to choose a deity, they can be clerics of a philosophy or a pantheon or whatever the campaign setting allows. Paladins, in the core rules, don't need a deity, either. Rangers and druids likewise. However, in the Dragonlance setting, you do.
And yeah, this will be cleared up in Holy Orders of the Stars.
Cheers,
Cam
That's how Eberron works. It's not how Dragonlance works. You will note that even in the Player's Handbook it reassures players that they don't need to choose a deity, they can be clerics of a philosophy or a pantheon or whatever the campaign setting allows. Paladins, in the core rules, don't need a deity, either. Rangers and druids likewise. However, in the Dragonlance setting, you do
I think in the instance of Sword Knight's it makes more sense for them to receive it from a Solamnic Pantheon. It could be that the KoS would be the only exception in DL to the "worshipping one god rule" due to the unique religion and philosophy they have in comparison to other races and groups on Krynn. Thats just IMO though. No other organizations hold 3 gods in the same or equal esteem like the Solamnic Knights as far as I know.
However, I definetly don't see the problem with the ideal that solamnics could gather and worship those gods in their pantheon and get the spells. I realize that this is Eberron's way and not DLs, and that I can house rule it, but in the long history of DL and the Solamnic knighthood doesn't this answer seem more like the way they always were rather than the way they seem to be now?
"Praise to Paladine!"
"Paladine save me and make my soul strong"
"Paladine give me strength.."
etc etc etc...
"Hey whats your patron god?"
"Kiri-Jolith..."
You rarely ever saw a Knight praise Kiri-Jolith on a regular basis. It was almost always Paladine. Kiri-Jolith was in almost the same boat as Habbakuk now. Althought I think he was always a little better off, being the god of righteous war or whatever.
Now I'm sure some of you will say "You can respect Paladine and still have Kiri-Jolith as your patron god". Well yea, but it never just seemed like "respect". Paladine was *the* god of the Knighthood. It really bothers me to see Habbakuk pretty much thrown to the side and never ever mentioned for the knighthood. Basically it seems like the Knighthood has just turned into one big clergy of Kiri-Jolith and I think its sad. I think they should have different customs, ideals, etc sometimes. I'm sure a lot of things may be similar, but I dont want most people who go into the Knights of the Sword be some kind of cleric beforehand. It doesnt make much sense.
Now Cam said once that the cleric level was to represent their spirituality or something, their training in spirituality, I dunno. But it still doesnt take away from the fact that they are *clerics*. They are still members of the clergy of Kiri-Jolith.
I've always much rather have seen the Solamnics get their powers from a collective triangle. All three gods "chip in" and give the powers to the Solamnics. Can you even have a cleric of Habakkuk join the Knights and receive powers from Kiri-Jolith? I almost dont think so.. and I find that sad
I dont mind there not being like every god having clerics in the knighthood. But I do think the three gods could have had clerics in the knighthood, seeing as all three are basically patrons for them.I dunno... as I said, I think it makes much more sense for all three to be the patron gods, than just pick one and everything that is done is from that god. That way the Knighthood just doesnt turn into one big club of paladins for Kiri-Jolith.
I dunno... as I said, I think it makes much more sense for all three to be the patron gods, than just pick one and everything that is done is from that god. That way the Knighthood just doesnt turn into one big club of paladins for Kiri-Jolith.
I agree. Why have 3 parton (2 depending on era of play) gods for the knighthood when every one of them is just going to be a cleric to only one of them?
It really bothers me to see Habbakuk pretty much thrown to the side and never ever mentioned for the knighthood.
That bugs me a lot too. Habbakuk was one of the three gods who sponsor the knighthood, specifically the Order of the Crown. He's part of the Solamnic Triumvirate.
Yes, he may be a god of good nature, but gods are multifaceted beings who often have more than one trick up their sleeves.
I dunno... as I said, I think it makes much more sense for all three to be the patron gods, than just pick one and everything that is done is from that god. That way the Knighthood just doesnt turn into one big club of paladins for Kiri-Jolith.
If you take the variant spellcasting option in War of the Lance, you can easily say that Sword Knights gain their magic from the entire Solamnic Triumvirate. Domains won't be a factor using those rules, so mechanically speaking, it doesn't matter which god is your patron.
What you have to look at with the DLCS rules is whether or not a cleric of Habbakuk or Paladine could advance within the knighthood. Kiri-Jolith is, after all, the patron of the Sword Knights, so it doesn't make sense for a Sword Knight to worship another deity. Yet Paladine is patron of the Rose Knights, so it wouldn't make sense for a Rose Knight to worship anyone other than Paladine (or Kiri-Jolith post-WoS).
So, one option is that the divine spellcasters in the KoS gain their magic from the entire Solamnic Triumvirate. Sounds fairly reasonable, and if you use the variant spellcasting rules in War of the Lance, not a mechanical problem. The problem here is that this goes against the idea that each mortal can only have one deity to "connect" with.
Another option is that the Sword Knights each gain their magic from separate deities - typically Kiri-Jolith, but occasionally Paladine and on more rare occasions Habbakuk. While this gives the "connection factor", you have the problem that this method takes away from the idea that each order has its patron deity.
Of course, you also have to consider how mystics fall into this. Before the War of Souls, no problem. But what of those mystics who don't want to switch to the worship of Kiri-Jolith?
Interesting quandry.
It seems to me that the way to approach this is to say that the relationship between a KoS and the deities is not the same as the relationship between a cleric and a deity. This is similar to the idea that a ranger is not a "divine champion" of Habbakuk. Likewise, druids of Chislev and clerics of Chislev act in different ways, and their connection to their deity is different.
Each order has a patron deity. When you enter the Order of the Crown, you strive to meet the goals set down by Habbakuk. As you advance to the Order of the Sword, you've progressed in your spiritual learning and are now more "in tune" with Kiri-Jolith. When this happens, Kiri-Jolith is the one granting your spells. While you are a firm believer in the entire knighthood and the entire Solamnic Triumvirate, you know that Kiri-Jolith is your patron. As you advance to the Order of the Rose, you become more "in tune" with Paladine, and so your magic comes from him.
Basically, the idea here is that you hold the entire Triumvirate in fairly equal regards, holding the patron deity in your particular order closest in your heart. As you advance in orders, you become more attuned to the deity that is patron of that particular order.
I strongly recommend using the variant spellcasting rules from WotL if you follow this route.
It seems to me that the way to approach this is to say that the relationship between a KoS and the deities is not the same as the relationship between a cleric and a deity.
Pretty much the idea I was trying to drive across with my last several posts ;)
I understand the want for there to be only one patron deity at all times. It makes sense, and for the most part I actually think it works. Now sometimes I may not like it, but this is Dragonlance, not any other world. No matter what anyone says, limitations is what makes a world different. I know people dont like to hear that, but a person can be anything, have anything, do anything, etc... then basically all worlds are the same.
I don't mind dealing with the limitation of one god per person... until I find that it doesnt seem to quite work.. which is why I like exceptions. I think the problem with exceptions is that when a person sees an exception, they automatically assume there must be many more and you start seeing lots and lots of "exceptions". An example of this is Drzzit in FR.. a good drow is supposed to be very rare, and yet now you see millions. Exceptions should be that rare thing that in "canon" dont happen very often.
Anyways... I've never seen the patron deity thing for the KoS as that clear cut. Its stated that Habakkuk is the patron deity of the Crown, Kiri-Jolith of the Sword, and Paladine of the Rose. Now does that mean a person changes his patron deity every time he raises to a different level? So a character who has this special connection with Habakkuk... gives that up when he goes to Sword? About the only thing you could do is go up to Sword, but you can't take the PrC.. because your god is Habakkuk? To me that's a waste.
I've always envisioned the gods for the Knighthood as kind of sponsors. A Knight gets his powers from the Good Gods of Three. Each god has a soft spot in his heart for his specific order. A cleric of Habakkuk could raise into Sword and keep receiving spells from Habakkuk. He praises Kiri-Jolith, recognizes Kiri-Jolith's contributions to his order, and pays homage to him as the patron deity to his order. But when he prays, he prays to Habakkuk, listening to *his* personal god in what he should do that day. And subsequently receives spells from *his* god. Kiri-jolith, having a soft spot for the Sword knights may try to bless different ones depending on different situations, but knows that it is his brother's servant in the case of the cleric of Habakkuk.
I also dont like most knights being a cleric beforehand because I dont think the Knights are near as spiritual as what regular clerics are. Yes I do believe they are very spiritual, but I think a lot of what they get, in powers, comes more from their inherent goodness, the triangle of Three, etc. Yes they worship the gods, praise the ones who founded their knighthood, etc... but theit interests wont always be the same as the clergy of Kiri-Jolith. Like what happened with the Kingpriest. I do not want the KoS to be a branch of the Kiri-Jolith priesthood. Thats not what they are.
Most clerics dedicate their lives to their gods. Thats what they do. The Knighthood survived even when there were no gods. Yes maybe they degenerated a little, but that kernel of goodness was always there. They dedicate themselves to nobility, chivralry, doing good in the world, fighting evil, etc. I personally dont believe they are the same exact thing. I know a lot of times what a cleric does and a knight does can overlap. Actually a lot with clerics of Kiri-Jolith, but I like the distinction. I want to keep spirituality in the knighthood, but not make it *the* prominent thing like it is to a cleric. Knights are able to do good even without the gods.
I want to see clerics of Habakkuk, clerics of Kiri-Jolith, mystics, and even knights who gain all their powers just from the Triangle of Two(now) in the knighthood. I think this would make it mainly diverse enough so that it just wont become another part of Kiri-Joliths faith.
Take away the wording that Crown's "patron deity" is Habakkuk, and instead change it to "This god inspired the creation of the Knights of the Corwn and is venerated, respected, and praised because of this". And insert the same thing for the other two orders. Then just because someone is in that level of Knight.. they arent automatically *given* a patron deity. The patron deity should be something of choice, and not because you raised a level in the knighthood. Now some people may say, well its your choice wether to raise the level or take the PrC.. and thats true. But I still maintain that the spells given from Sword/Rose could easily be given by Habbakuk as much as Kiri-Jolith. Just put in the sentence "The Knight gains spells from his patron deity(which must be Habbakkuk or Kiri-Jolith) the same as if he had raised a level in cleric)"... that is if he had cleric levels first before taking the Sword PrC. I advocate the rewording the the clause that these deities are the "patron deities" of their order.
Sometimes I worry a little when I see you write in DH, just because I think you are going to go with the way things "as written". I like to see a little variety and am glad to see a little bit of my concerns arent just "mine" :D
LOL!
While I do try to present the official point of view, there are times I have concerns as well. ;)
I've always envisioned the gods for the Knighthood as kind of sponsors. A Knight gets his powers from the Good Gods of Three. Each god has a soft spot in his heart for his specific order.
"Sponsor" is probably a better way to phrase things. The question then becomes one of where the power comes from.
A cleric of Habakkuk could raise into Sword and keep receiving spells from Habakkuk. He praises Kiri-Jolith, recognizes Kiri-Jolith's contributions to his order, and pays homage to him as the patron deity to his order. But when he prays, he prays to Habakkuk, listening to *his* personal god in what he should do that day. And subsequently receives spells from *his* god. Kiri-jolith, having a soft spot for the Sword knights may try to bless different ones depending on different situations, but knows that it is his brother's servant in the case of the cleric of Habakkuk.
Would such a scenario cause conflict within the order?
Take away the wording that Crown's "patron deity" is Habakkuk, and instead change it to "This god inspired the creation of the Knights of the Corwn and is venerated, respected, and praised because of this". And insert the same thing for the other two orders.
Good wording on that, and some excellent points within your post.
As for Rose knights, it stands to reason that if they are given spellcasting powers, in earlier periods their patron was Paladine and their transition to serving him and not his son was part of the initiation and trial period they are required to undergo. This shift would be permitted by both gods as part of their arrangement. In the post-War of Souls era, Kiri-Jolith assumes his father's role with the Rose knights as well.
Habbakuk remains an honored sponsor (a good word in this case) of the Crown knights, but they are not an Order associated with spellcasting, and therefore there's no conflict. I'd be happy with rangers becoming members of the Order of the Crown, since they could happily gain power from Habbakuk and still work in line with their role as knights. They wouldn't advance to the order of the Sword, however.
And this brings me to another point. Folks need to stop thinking of the three Orders as a progression that is desired by all knights. If this were the case, there wouldn't be any higher-level Crown knights. A knight should know that he is heading for the Order of the Sword or the Order of the Rose, and in those cases, should progress as quickly as possible through them in order to achieve his eventual role, rather than spend 10 years as a Crown knight and then one day wake up and feel like becoming a Sword or Rose knight.
Cheers,
Cam
And this brings me to another point. Folks need to stop thinking of the three Orders as a progression that is desired by all knights. If this were the case, there wouldn't be any higher-level Crown knights. A knight should know that he is heading for the Order of the Sword or the Order of the Rose, and in those cases, should progress as quickly as possible through them in order to achieve his eventual role, rather than spend 10 years as a Crown knight and then one day wake up and feel like becoming a Sword or Rose knight.
Cheers,
Cam
I always thought the orders comprised the military structure in a sense. The Crown knights always did what they were told by Sword and Rose, and Sword did as told by Rose, and Rose lead all. I never really thought of them as seperate orders in and of themselves, which is how I am (mis)understanding your point. They don't work like the Nerakan knighthood, where you pick what you plan on being in when you enter, but instead you work and progress through the system to improve. You must look good in both the eyes of your peers and in the eyes of your god to progress to the next level. Though the ideal of changing the god you worship as a part of your trial makes it so much easier to work with. Of course, and slightly more to the original topic, if one was to take the road to knighthood with a paladin, would this not cause massive troubles when they did promote to that next level? They are considered a champion of their god, and yet they get the chance for personal improvement and suddenly that god is chop liver.
I always thought the orders comprised the military structure in a sense. The Crown knights always did what they were told by Sword and Rose, and Sword did as told by Rose, and Rose lead all. I never really thought of them as seperate orders in and of themselves, which is how I am (mis)understanding your point. They don't work like the Nerakan knighthood, where you pick what you plan on being in when you enter, but instead you work and progress through the system to improve.
There definitely is a different structure to each organization. The Nerakans all start out with some basic training, but upon completing the Test of Takhisis, they choose whether to follow the path of the Lily (warrior), Thorn (mage), or Skull (priest).
Your analogy of a military-tiered organization really isn't far off. Like the military, not every individual rises through the ranks to become the general. Some even remain enlisted men, rather than advancing to the rank of officer.
Each order has a purpose, as does each knight. Not every knight will rise to the ranks of the Rose Knights, who are the leaders and epitome of what knighthood should be. Some knights are better at serving, so they would fit best in the order of the Crown. Other knights are deeply spiritual, so they would stay within the ranks of the order of the Sword, guiding the other knights on their own path towards spirituality.
It is a fallacy to think that every knight will advance to the order of the Rose, or would even want to.
My very first knight only advanced to the order of the Sword, remaining there because that was his place. Another knight never advanced beyond Crown Knight. Believe it or not, I have not once played a Rose Knight.
You must look good in both the eyes of your peers and in the eyes of your god to progress to the next level. Though the ideal of changing the god you worship as a part of your trial makes it so much easier to work with. Of course, and slightly more to the original topic, if one was to take the road to knighthood with a paladin, would this not cause massive troubles when they did promote to that next level? They are considered a champion of their god, and yet they get the chance for personal improvement and suddenly that god is chop liver.
Perhaps another reason why paladin is non-standard. ;)
Still, I believe that the knights are in need of something that has not happened in a while, and that the Oath and Measure should be reviewed. Its time to start letting in some other races and cultures. My two greatest knights were direct violations of the standard DL world. One was a Sivak Draconian (I believed they could be good before it was written). He was only a 5th lvl Crown Knight with 2nd ed rules. The other was a more recent player, a Half-Ogre Fighter 4 / Crown Knight 2. Both were good times.
I believe that the biggest problem I have had is with how I percieved the Solamnic order. I figured ever knight wanted to reach the pinical, and therefore be a Rose Knight. That way they had rank and prestige. Well, I am beginning to realize that is not entirely true.
Knights do strive to reach a certain amount of perfection, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they will become Rose Knights. Sword Knights might strive for a certain amount of spiritual perfection, so they strive to rise up the ranks of the Sword Knights. Likewise, Crown Knights might strive to become the epitome of the virtue of loyalty, so they may strive to rise through the ranks of the Crown Knights.
With the way things are set up, its only natural that most knights would have the wish/drive to advance to Rose. The KoS arent like the KoN. The Knights of Neraka pick the Order they want depending on where their respective skill lies. Arcane magic, divine magic, or warrior. They choose their order and advance only in that order. This is a clear cut seperation.
The Knights of Solamnia arent so easily defined. You must advance in previous orders to move on. The system is "built" for the Rose knights to be on top. No matter what anyone says, the Rose knights are considered the epitome of a Knight. To think that most knights dont strive towards this, I think is fallacy.
It is possible to be a leader in the Crown or Sword order. Just like you can be spiritual in the Crown or Rose order. And you can be a good "warrior" in the Sword and Rose orders. But most people will want to eventually move up into leadership roles. And if Rose knights are seen as the "leaders", than most people will see that that is the order to advance to. Its natural. Also again, they are considered the "true" knight... most people who join an organization strive for the best.
There are exceptions. A person who wants to be purely spiritual may stay in the Sword. A person who wants to be command other Crown knights, I guess would just stay in Crown. But then again I personally dont see how Crown are considered more of warriors than Rose. To me, Rose knights are warriors who also lead because of their rank priveledge, they have proven themselves over and over again and have been given command positions and respect because of this. In this sense, I dont see that many knights wanting to stay in the Crown order over advancing to the Rose order. I'm sure the Crown has leaders, but sheesh... Rose are known for it. Most people in the world strive for leadership positions. Its the way of the world. I see the Crown orders as the "novice" order.. you need to gain the experience and respect in order to move up. Sword Knights are seen as a little more experienced and put in charge more, but still havent done the great deeds of a Rose knight. But some may stay because they wish to lead the spiritual side of the order. This maybe I can see a few people taking, but not lots.
People will strive for Rose just out of the personal accomplishment it took, the respect of their fellow knights, the respect from others who see the "true knight" ride by, etc. It isnt just all about abilities. The Rose was put at the top, even within the knighthood it is seen as the ideal and the word of a Rose Knight is paramount. To think that most knights dont strive for this.. would be amazing.
To me, I dont see the Sword as a PrC just for followers of Kiri-Jolith. Basically you are turning them into specialty priests of Kiri-Jolith and I dont like that. That PrC would fit just fine with a cleric of Habakkuk who entered into the Knighthood. In my view of Dragonlance, your god isnt the factor of whether you move up in the Knighthood. "You worship Habbakuk...I'm sorry Sword and Rose arent for you"
Now to say that a cleric of Habakkuk couldnt ascend to a Knight of the Sword I think is wrong. I guess they could ascend to KoS, but not take the prestige class. And take levels of Cleric or whatever. Thats one way its possible, but I think the PrC should be there for any good knight who wants to take it, regardless of the God. The God doesnt make the PrC...It should be like most other PrC's yous ee when it comes to cleric, they still retain their connection to their god. The Knight of the Sword is *not* a specialty PrC for Kiri-Jolith. Others may see it as so.. but I dont believe so.
I want the knighthood full of knights who are diversified and mainly sees the Knighthood as first, the gods second, etc. They put chivralry, nobility, general goodness, etc as paramount. I think this is achieved with there being clerics of Kiri-Jolith, clerics of Habakkuk, msytics, and knights who gain their "powers" just from the Knighthood/goodness(these would be people who dont have a cleric/mystic level when they take Sword, and gain spells fromt hen on). Do I think there would be decension? Not really.. as I said.. its your loyalty to the knighthood that comes into question, not wether you are a mystic, cleric of Kiri-Jolith, etc. The knighthood is what is important.
Now the more I think about it, I wouldnt even mind there being clerics of different gods also. Just because the Knighthood was founded by the three gods, doesnt mean a cleric of a different god wouldnt fit. A cleric of Mishakel who wanted to heal and believed in the tenets and nobility of the Knighthood would make a very good cleric, even a battlefield medic.
I advocate the taking out of the clause that says they are "patron" gods. I've already said what I would replace it with. To me it makes more sense. Basically Habbakuk is thrown to the side and bvarely even venerated. the Knighthood is full of almost all clerics of Kiri-Jolith, since most will turn tot he worship of Kiri-Jolith now that he is back. So basically the church is even bigger, with a huge arm of military might.. or at least it will be if it gets its numbers up.
The Knights of Solamnia arent so easily defined. You must advance in previous orders to move on. The system is "built" for the Rose knights to be on top. No matter what anyone says, the Rose knights are considered the epitome of a Knight. To think that most knights dont strive towards this, I think is fallacy.
They might strive to aspire to that sort of ideal, but most won't make it, and indeed in earlier eras only highborn aristocracy had a chance at achieving entry into the Order of the Rose. You do have to understand that the Lord Knights of the Crown outrank most other knights except Lord Knights of the Order of the Sword and Rose, and in many cases might even outrank them based on seniority and experience. The system is built for the Rose knights to earn their spurs, not to be the target of Crown and Sword career knights who want a change.
Cheers,
Cam
Some examples:
There's an awful lot of career military people who never aspire to become officers. I, personally, have no ambition to become high-level management in my company - I've chosen the technical expert career path rather than management. Elementary school teachers don't necesarily aspire to become high school teachers some day. Not all parish priests want to be bishop one day.
I dunno. I could be missing a lot of subtleties in Solamnic knightly tradition, but I don't necessarily think that higer order knighthood is necessarily a career goal for most.
Some people may not strive very high because of the fact that they know they would be in competition. In this case, this doesnt happen. As many people who want to, and can do the deeds to get them there, will be a Rose knight as long as the Knighthood accepts them.
I've said before, I do agree that there will be people who wont strive to be a Rose knight. But I think its almost unbelievable to think that *most* knights dont strive for this. When the Rose knights are seen as the epitome of the organization, most knights will want to be that.
As someone said earlier, I doubt most people stay a Sword knight for years and then one day wake up and say, hey I want to be a Rose now. But I do believe that most knights who join the knighthood, right when they become a squire, see a Rose knight and say "Oh my..I want to be that.. the skilled warrior, the spiritual devotee, the legendary leader..." The Rose knight is all of these, especially since they added spells to their repertoire(sp?) also. The Rose knight is practically everything the Crown/Sword is.. with more.
The Rose knight is *the* Knight when it comes down to it. Everything that has been said in a novel, sourcebook, etc has backed this up. Just fromt he fact you have to be in the others first, do certain deeds, pass certain tests, etc before youc an become one backs this up. These are the elite. And I think they should be open to anyone, even a cleric of Habakkuk and he still receives his powers from Habakkuk. The Knights of the Sword/Rose are not specialty priests of Kiri-Jolith. They are a knighthood first. The tenets of the Knighthood comes first...
I've already said that yes by the rules, a cleric of Habakkuk could become a Knight of the Sword, they just couldnt take the PrC. And I find that a shame. As I said, the PrC should be like most others, and keep giving spells from the deity the person had before. If you wanted to say the powers came from all three, then a limit of only letting clerics of those three gain more spells would totally be reasonable. If Knights of the Sword were just a seperate branch(like the Knights of Neraka have it) than I could see them being a "specialty priest" of Kiri-Jolith and they only receive spells from him. But thats now how the knighthood works. You have to be a Sword before Rose. And I maintain they are interconnected... not split up. And I dont think its right that it is required that kiri-Jolith has to be the patron. I like the word... sponsor.
Why can't the PrC just say that the Knight keeps receiving spells as a cleric would of their level, and it still comes from their patron god? Why does it *have* to be Kiri-Jolith do it? The rest of their powers don't need to be "deity" defined, seeing as plenty of classes dont have "deity" defined powers. Take out any of the clauses that state Kiri-Jolith does anything. Those powers come from the knighthood, goodness, etc.. whatever you want to make it.. but not a god. This would keep in tact the fact that a person can only have one patron.. and make those gods "sponsers" of the orders, not patrons. The gods dont specifically come down and tell the Knights how to run things anyways. Basically what they have done.. is give them the seed to make the Knighthood. They dont have to be the ones granting the powers.
I dunno, it seems others have no problem with this.. *shrug*. Maybe I'm taking too much time up arguing about it... but I dont like how they are defined.. it just seems to clerical. While spiritual yes.. the Knighthood is the Knighthood first. They've existed practically in conflict with clergy, ala the Kingpriest. I dont want a fiasco of them just being Kiri-Jolith diehards. The knighthood isnt the Knights of Kiri-Jolith, they are the Knights of Solamnia. I like diversity.
1st level Crown knights were known as Squires of the Crown. Once they reached 2nd level, they had the choice of entering the Order of the Crown fully (and embracing its ideals) or entering the Order of the Sword. If the latter is chosen, they spent the majority of their time as 2nd level Crown knights (Defenders of the Crown) questing for entry into the Order of the Sword. If successful, their 3rd level wasn't Knight of the Crown (and thus, a fully-invested member of that Order) but Novice of Swords.
A Sword Knight then begins his studies in the "basics of heroic honor and worship of the True Gods". They learn from the clerics and aspire to loftier ideals. Once they've passed this period of training and initiation, they can then choose to enter the Order of the Sword as invested knights (Knight of Swords) or try to enter the Order of the Rose, assuming they have royal blood. This bloodline requirement is no longer in place in the current era, but was certainly in place in Huma's time. If they go this route, they must pass more trials and become a Novice of Roses.
Note that in each instance, there's a novice or squire phase which is separate from the actual titled knightly ranking. Knights of the Sword, once they have entered the Order fully as knights and not novices, no longer have the option to join the Order of the Rose. Knights of the Crown similarly don't move into the Order of the Sword once they've earned their spurs as Crown knights.
It's clear from this that the intent was not to have the Orders be a succession of ranked knightly ladders, but a triad of orders devoted to their respective deities and their own Measures which are only properly entered into once the candidate is certain of his destiny. That's a large part of why I put together the variant single-class progression in the WOTL book the way I did, using DLA as the guidepost. It's also why I believe requiring the knight to be a cleric before he earns his Sword knight spurs is not necessarily how best to represent them in 3.5 terms.
Cheers,
Cam
Some things, like say a military officer is a position that needs to be filled, when it is open.
No, not really, but even if it was career seargents don't typically look at those officer positions and say "That could have been me..." It's a career choice.
Some people may not strive very high because of the fact that they know they would be in competition.
I disagree with this completely. It's a matter of what one feels called to do. A scientist might think they're a better fit for technical expertise rather than management, because that's what they love to do. A soldier might decide he wants to live the life of a noncom, rather than become an officer and do what officers do. A novice at seminary might decide that being a diocesan priest is a better fit for him than joining a monastic order. And a knight might find the life and ideals of, say, the Crown Knighthood match his outlook and calling better than that of the Rose. It has nothing to do with competitiveness, it's about finding one's calling in life.
I guess I don't see them as that hierarchical.
Now maybe they are seperate in a lot of ways and people do know what they want to strive for at the beginning. I still maintain that the majority of knights will strive for Rose. People of the world see it as the epitome of knighthood, and its only logical to assume that many knights will seek out that pinnacle of greatness. Will everyone.. no.
If the Orders are to be more seperate, then I think the Crown and Rose need to be distinguished a little more. Do I know how exactly this should be done? No.. although with time I'm sure I could come up with things. Keeping the Sword as the spiritual leaders is fine. And gives them the "niche". I would like a little more to keep Crown/Rose seperate than.. Crown as the warriors and Rose are the leaders. There needs to be in-world explanations for people to stay in Crown. Rose are very very skilled warriors, so the warrior explanation doesnt fit. If you just want to be a grunt all your life than I guess you would stay Crown. But I dont think lots of Knights would do this.
I think making them more seperate is actually a good idea. Most knights will decide what they want to "do"..and choose accordingly. And maybe thats how its always supposed to have been, but reading over all the stuff I have, I just have never gotten that feel. Maybe a Knighthood book could make this all that more apparant. Give the distinctions between the different orders and show them more as equal..then a staircase where each order is a "step".
With that said, I still say that the idea of spells and powers coming from Kiri-Jolith be taken out of the PrC. I'm glad that the cleric level was taken out and agree totally. I was very glad to see that in the War of the Lance book, also with the Rose knight spell levels being cut in half. These are good changes and I'm very glad to see SP and you personally Cam not above "rewriteing" things..or giving varients.
I believe if you took out the patron god and the spells and powers coming from Kiri-Jolith, the PrC would fit the knighthood even better. The Sword knights are the spiritual arm of the knighthood, and they still would. But they wouldnt be a Kiri-Jolith specialty PrC. It would be a clerical PrC, with the requirement you would need to be a knight. Maybe this would make a few more conflicts, between various faiths, but I believe in the end the diversity would make more sense. Its the same as a Solamnic Auxiliary mage. They follow the knighthood, the WoHS, and their god. I think its possible also with the Sword knights. I believe this is the best way to go to show that the Knighthood isnt just a bunch of clerics. They believe in the Knighthood first, their gods second, etc. The Knighthood is what is important here. I am not advocating the getting rid of their spirituality.. I'm advocating the putting it after their honor, the Measure, etc. Throughout Dragonlance history there have been examples. I still believe they should follow Paladine's teachings, Kiri-Joliths faith, the principles of Habbakuk, but the Knighthood is what counts. I dont think this system would be perfect by any means, but I personally believe it fits the knighthood better.
I do believe I will be changing my KoS to reflect this, after this long debate. And it has been a good debate. Cam you have actually switched some of my views on the Orders being seperate and more equal, than just a stepping ladder. And I'm appreciative of this. But I dont think I could keep the Sword/Rose knights as getting their powers from just Kiri-Jolith. I wont even be saying they get them from the "combined" gods. But more these are just powers that they receive from "goodness", the knighthood, etc..maybe something even more vague. Most PrC's do not explicitly say where the powers come from. And I think the vagueness would fit better.
This means that if a cleric of Habakkuk wanted to advance all the way up to Rose, its possible. There are no problems. The Knight will still pay respect to Kiri-Jolith for the role he played in the founding of the Knighthood and for the watching out of his order, which Kiri-Jolith does now (Rose). He will also praise Paladine's sacrifice and the things he has done in the Knighthood's history. But his god, that he wakes up and prays to in order to find peace and happiness will remain Habakkuk. And this will be fine.. he will follow the Knighthood, the Measure, the Oath, and garnar the respect of his fellow knights. Maybe conflicts may arise.. but what in the world doesnt cause conflicts? Its the Knighthood that matters.. that is why people join the Knighthood. If someone only just cared about their god, they wouldnt join the organization.
For example in the US you'd have Airborne Assault, then Rangers, and then Green Berets/Navy Seal types. An officer of the Airborne might outrank a Navy Seal, but which one do people talk about being just the epitome of Special Ops more?
Oh wait, that's right, someone asked about Paladins. Well, in comparison to the knightly orders of England, the Paladins in Krynn I'd imagine would be more like the Knights Templar from another land, or maybe the Inquisitors of Spain, or any number of other areas which don't have the knights of Solamnia perhaps...or as in the case of the Knights Templar, they'd have British citizens who were members, but the Knights Templar were more of a religious organization under the church rather than a nation.
Or in comparison to the US...members of the Canadian military special Ops...or even if you want to have a powerful paladin association instead of that light, members of MI-6 instead of the US special Ops.
What do you mean? Kiri-Jolith is an INTERMEDIATE GOD! Mishkal is a GREATER GOD, Greater God Beats Intermedate God, thus Mishkal IS the defacto leader of the Gods of Good. Just as Sargonious is a GREATER GOD, thus he's the defactor leader of the Gods of Evil.
Actually Mishakal is not the official leader of the good pantheon nor is Sargonnas the leader of the evil pantheon. Sargonnas is in a power struggle with the other gods of evil for leadership over that pantheon. Right now there is a huge power vaccuum that remains to be filled. Mishakal has not claimed the position abdicated by Paladine. All we know so far is that she is becoming a bit mor militant on some of her positions. The rest of the good pantheon is stepping up to fill that void not fighting over it like the gods of evil. At least that's what I've gotten out of everything said about it so far.
Its pretty much accepted that seniority is what matters the most in the KoS. I went on a tangent of saying most knights probably aspire to be a Rose knight because of when Cam mentioned that not every knight will aspire for this. Which is true, but I still believe most knights will want that. But, like with most things, its a matter of opinion.
I'm trying to think of ways of making the different orders more unique and individual than just being like a staircase where each order is a step. I like the idea of them being more of sperate branches, but personally I dont see a lot of evidence to support it. A Knighthood book that went in depth about the attitudes, cultures, beliefs, etc about each branch I think would go a long way. The main thing I see from most people is that Crown are warriors, Sword are the spiritual leaders, and the Rose are the generals or leaders. I would love to see more distinction.
Anyways, all these other arguments were mainly side arguments. My main point of most of my posts was to show that the Knights of Solamnia would be much better off, in my opinion, if the powers and spells werent seen as just coming from Kiri-Jolith. Let the powers come from wherever(like most PrC's) and the spells are still received from their patron god. This would make the Knighthood more diverse, the Sword/Rose knights as not just a specialty priest of Kiri-Jolith, show spirituality but realize that the Knighthood is the first priority, etc. The taking out of the clause of patron god and replacing it with sponsor is also a good change. Also keep the alternate ruling in the War of the Lance where people can take the Sword PrC without having to have a level in cleric/mystic. I would have them start gaining spells as a mystic though now, instead of a cleric. This would keep with the theme that you can't have a cleric without a deity in Dragonlance. Unfortunately, the only problem with this is that before the 5th age, there's no way they could have been a mystic or had ambient magic. The only thing I can think of is to make them get their spells as a cleric, gaining their spells from the Triangle of Three. But unforunately this goes against the rule of one patron god. But for this one time, I wouldnt mind an exception. It just seems like such a better option than everyone being a cleric of Kiri-Jolith... at least in my opinion.
I dunno, I'm almost sure most of this will be implemented in my games because I see it as such a better scenario for the Knights. Maybe all the kinks arent out of it yet, but I'm working on it :D