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The Immortal Guardians Identified (?)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Hugin
Feb 16, 2005 20:56:11 Due to the fact that the PCs IMC are headed toward Ylaruam, I've been doing a lot of reading of the Gaz and on Pandius, and I noticed that the name "Immortal Guardians" does not appear on the list that DM posted in his Immortals thread. So it made me curious what you (DM) and others have done with these "Immortal Guardians".

It seems to me that Al-Kalim was a follower of these Immortals and that the Nahmeh admonishes followers to have faith and trust in the Immortal Guardians. Therefore, the Ylari are not monotheistic at all.

But who are these Guardians? Could they possibly be the very same Immortals that destroyed Nithia and vowed to watch and "guard" those remaining humans of Nithia's subject race, striving to instill "values" to prevent the same embracing of darkness of their ill-fated masters? The very fact that these Immortals stay "anonymous", is intriguing in itself.
#2
zombiegleemax
Feb 16, 2005 23:40:13 I always thought it just meant the Immortals in general, and that they were trying to make Ylaruam fit with the idea that clerics worship the Immortals in general (so specialty priests aren't needed). This idea was dropped by later writers when they began to make followers of specific Immortals anyway, so there was no reason not to make Al-Kalim an exclusive patron. (Note that the Ylari have to acknowledge at least one other Immortal, Al-Kalim's patron, the Old Man of the Sea.)
#3
zombiegleemax
Feb 17, 2005 5:22:29 Well Hugin, this is a complex and interesting question.
Unfortunately, there is not much we can get from GAZ2 regarding the Immortal Guardians' identity, and for years I thought about writing down a pantheon of Immortal Guardians for Ylaruam. Eventually I came out with something, but now, after discussing it with other fans and re-reading closely GAZ2 AND taking Islam as source of inspiration, I have come to another conclusion.
Ylari worshipping Immortal Guardians do not name them. there are NO specific Guardians, just a symbolic term to describe all of them.

This is what I wrote in my Codex Immortalis to describe the Eternal Truth (it's a fragment of the chapter):

The Eternal Truth is an extremely Lawful faith that worships Immortal Guardians, a group of deities that cannot be named nor represented through any means. These Guardians gave mortals the skills and teachings to become "chosen ones", to live happy in this world and save their soul from ultimate death. Al-Kalim was the first Prophet that understood the true meaning of these teachings and put them into practice by writing the Nahmeh, the true Book of Moral and Religious Code that the True Believers must follow to pay homage to the Immortals. Al-Kalim is now worshipped as the most enlightened man, he who reached the Immortal Guardians in the heavens and became one with them (a kind of bodhisattva, something between Mohammed and Buddha).
For this reason the priests of the Eternal Truth worship the Immortal Guardians and Al-Kalim and they plea for their guidance to stay on the right path.
All other faiths are blasphemous because they don't accept the right way of honoring Immortals as shown in the Nahmeh. However, Al-Kalim also teaches his followers to be tolerant and try to convert infidels to the Eternal Truth rather than kill them, as long as they do not threaten the True Believers. For this reason it is possible to worship different immortals in Ylaruam, but only if the faith is kept private and not shown publicly.

That's basically what I concluded.
If we want to speak out of game, we might say that there are SOME immortals who had a significant role in overseeing Nithia, but they lost this role after Nithia's downfall and their followers dwindled. After Al Kalim's rise they have been completely forgotten by the Ylari as individual deities and are worshipped as generic nameless "Guardians" (it's a philosophical term which comprises basically all non-evil Immortals).
#4
Hugin
Feb 18, 2005 18:16:18 One of the reasons why I had this thought was that it appealed to me that to balance out the destruction of Nithia, they would help in the restoration of the region, even if this was planned to be only temporary and perhaps a project on the side. The Alasiyans, a people who have only known servitude their entire lives, were now the masters of their own fates. I can envision the Immortals foreseeing yet another disaster if "guidance" was not provided.

Can you imagine that the war-like culture of the Alasiyan people grew from individuals who, despite (or because of) struggeling for survival in such a harsh enviroment, now had the opportunity to take hold of whatever they please so long as they had the power to keep it from all others? This people went from slave to king of their own lives almost over-night. I know that their memories of the Nithians were completely removed, but I still believe that their personalities (formed partially from their past experiences) were left intact and once they discovered that their servant-habits were now obsolete, it became a free-for-all.

The Immortals (which ones exactly would be only mere speculation) see this happening. They see a people without a Patron, a people without law, and perhaps now, a people without respect for other people (i.e. other family tribes). Through various visions, messengers, and dreams, the Alasiyans are gradually shown the Eternal Truth by the Immortal Guardians, who do not reveal their names. They are the Great Beings of the Heavens, and to speak their names is not lawful for a mere mortal, not even to whisper.

The Eternal Truth gave to these people rules, even if only in an ideological form. This helped the situation, ensuring a greater disaster did not occur but things stayed fairly divided among the tribes. These people needed a true Patron, one of their own, who would have a passion for his people, and lead them on a path of honour. If the Alasiyan people did indeed have an Immortal Patron on the Isle of Dawn before they were subjugated by the Nithians, they had lost all memory of it. So the Immortal Guardians kept a watch for a mortal candidate for Immortality. There were a few that came and failed, but finally, Al-Kalim demonsratated his worthiness.

The Alasiyans, now united as the Ylari, have been restored as a people. For the "Immortal Guardians", the nightmare of Nithia's darkness and destruction is long past, and replaced by a culture of men strongly rooted in the path to honour both the Immortals and his fellow mankind.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Hugin Feb 16, 2005 20:56:11	Due to the fact that the PCs IMC are headed toward Ylaruam, I've been doing a lot of reading of the Gaz and on Pandius, and I noticed that the name "Immortal Guardians" does not appear on the list that DM posted in his Immortals thread. So it made me curious what you (DM) and others have done with these "Immortal Guardians". It seems to me that Al-Kalim was a follower of these Immortals and that the Nahmeh admonishes followers to have faith and trust in the Immortal Guardians. Therefore, the Ylari are not monotheistic at all. But who are these Guardians? Could they possibly be the very same Immortals that destroyed Nithia and vowed to watch and "guard" those remaining humans of Nithia's subject race, striving to instill "values" to prevent the same embracing of darkness of their ill-fated masters? The very fact that these Immortals stay "anonymous", is intriguing in itself.
#2 zombiegleemax Feb 16, 2005 23:40:13	I always thought it just meant the Immortals in general, and that they were trying to make Ylaruam fit with the idea that clerics worship the Immortals in general (so specialty priests aren't needed). This idea was dropped by later writers when they began to make followers of specific Immortals anyway, so there was no reason not to make Al-Kalim an exclusive patron. (Note that the Ylari have to acknowledge at least one other Immortal, Al-Kalim's patron, the Old Man of the Sea.)
#3 zombiegleemax Feb 17, 2005 5:22:29	Well Hugin, this is a complex and interesting question. Unfortunately, there is not much we can get from GAZ2 regarding the Immortal Guardians' identity, and for years I thought about writing down a pantheon of Immortal Guardians for Ylaruam. Eventually I came out with something, but now, after discussing it with other fans and re-reading closely GAZ2 AND taking Islam as source of inspiration, I have come to another conclusion. Ylari worshipping Immortal Guardians do not name them. there are NO specific Guardians, just a symbolic term to describe all of them. This is what I wrote in my Codex Immortalis to describe the Eternal Truth (it's a fragment of the chapter): The Eternal Truth is an extremely Lawful faith that worships Immortal Guardians, a group of deities that cannot be named nor represented through any means. These Guardians gave mortals the skills and teachings to become "chosen ones", to live happy in this world and save their soul from ultimate death. Al-Kalim was the first Prophet that understood the true meaning of these teachings and put them into practice by writing the Nahmeh, the true Book of Moral and Religious Code that the True Believers must follow to pay homage to the Immortals. Al-Kalim is now worshipped as the most enlightened man, he who reached the Immortal Guardians in the heavens and became one with them (a kind of bodhisattva, something between Mohammed and Buddha). For this reason the priests of the Eternal Truth worship the Immortal Guardians and Al-Kalim and they plea for their guidance to stay on the right path. All other faiths are blasphemous because they don't accept the right way of honoring Immortals as shown in the Nahmeh. However, Al-Kalim also teaches his followers to be tolerant and try to convert infidels to the Eternal Truth rather than kill them, as long as they do not threaten the True Believers. For this reason it is possible to worship different immortals in Ylaruam, but only if the faith is kept private and not shown publicly. That's basically what I concluded. If we want to speak out of game, we might say that there are SOME immortals who had a significant role in overseeing Nithia, but they lost this role after Nithia's downfall and their followers dwindled. After Al Kalim's rise they have been completely forgotten by the Ylari as individual deities and are worshipped as generic nameless "Guardians" (it's a philosophical term which comprises basically all non-evil Immortals).
#4 Hugin Feb 18, 2005 18:16:18	One of the reasons why I had this thought was that it appealed to me that to balance out the destruction of Nithia, they would help in the restoration of the region, even if this was planned to be only temporary and perhaps a project on the side. The Alasiyans, a people who have only known servitude their entire lives, were now the masters of their own fates. I can envision the Immortals foreseeing yet another disaster if "guidance" was not provided. Can you imagine that the war-like culture of the Alasiyan people grew from individuals who, despite (or because of) struggeling for survival in such a harsh enviroment, now had the opportunity to take hold of whatever they please so long as they had the power to keep it from all others? This people went from slave to king of their own lives almost over-night. I know that their memories of the Nithians were completely removed, but I still believe that their personalities (formed partially from their past experiences) were left intact and once they discovered that their servant-habits were now obsolete, it became a free-for-all. The Immortals (which ones exactly would be only mere speculation) see this happening. They see a people without a Patron, a people without law, and perhaps now, a people without respect for other people (i.e. other family tribes). Through various visions, messengers, and dreams, the Alasiyans are gradually shown the Eternal Truth by the Immortal Guardians, who do not reveal their names. They are the Great Beings of the Heavens, and to speak their names is not lawful for a mere mortal, not even to whisper. The Eternal Truth gave to these people rules, even if only in an ideological form. This helped the situation, ensuring a greater disaster did not occur but things stayed fairly divided among the tribes. These people needed a true Patron, one of their own, who would have a passion for his people, and lead them on a path of honour. If the Alasiyan people did indeed have an Immortal Patron on the Isle of Dawn before they were subjugated by the Nithians, they had lost all memory of it. So the Immortal Guardians kept a watch for a mortal candidate for Immortality. There were a few that came and failed, but finally, Al-Kalim demonsratated his worthiness. The Alasiyans, now united as the Ylari, have been restored as a people. For the "Immortal Guardians", the nightmare of Nithia's darkness and destruction is long past, and replaced by a culture of men strongly rooted in the path to honour both the Immortals and his fellow mankind.