What would you say if Wizards of the Coast completely rebooted DL? What if they restarted with the War of the Lance and the Companions, but had the story happen different. What if they decided to make Raistlin turn good in the end, etc? What if Legends never happens?
Would you still enjoy DL? Say they do this after all of the major story arcs being worked on right now are finished, would you read the "new" DL?
(this is also on the DL.com forums as well)
Cheers,
Cam
Seriously, what would happen would be another splitting of the fan base between "mainstream DL" and "Ultimate DL" (to borrow a term from Marvel).
We would hear many complaints of how this invalidates continuity, how nothing that came before mattered.
Then when the storyline advances to the Age of Mortals, how is that approached? You could go into that several ways, whether as-is for the most part, a reenvisioning of the Age of Mortals, or to go on and not go the route of the Age of Mortals. More controversy then ensues.
This tactic has been a lot more successful with Marvel's Ultimates line, although I've seen other times where things like this don't do well at all in comics.
Knowing DL fandom like I do, I would guess that it would only cause more rifts in an already-fractured fan base.
Raistlin as evil and powerful is almost iconic in DL, people would have a heart attack!
So one would want to keep the core DL chronicles and characters in tact, and after that, I could see myself following something that tore down the house but left the foundation to rebuild/reboot.
Leave the core OS, but otherwise a reboot could be interesting. Have Steel survive instead of Palin, or see what would happen if Palin's brothers survived...or see if Raistlin really DID have a daughter and it was proven...what would Palin do then...etc.
Say something like the 5th Age didn't happen. I am talking an official continuity that would placate the hardcore 4th Age fans. Or perhaps, one that doesn't have the War of Souls happen, and sorcery and mysticism are the only forms of magic. Or if the War of Souls does happen, what if it ends different, with Takhisis and Paladine maintaining their divinity. Many people dislike that the big conflicts keep happening over and over again, so what would happen if they didn't happen or happened differently.
Would you still enjoy DL? Say they do this after all of the major story arcs being worked on right now are finished, would you read the "new" DL?
Nope.
...or see if Raistlin really DID have a daughter and it was proven...what would Palin do then...etc.
Just one thought: If it wasn't Fizban who appeared to Palin and Usha...Linsha...Leia...whatever...
then what if Raistlin in that moment was an avatar of troubled t too?*Couldn't it be possible that *that girl* was Rs daughter after all?*
:OMG! Wouldn't that imply that P and that girl were doing *incest*!? *Had to get a grip on me not to write sodomy*
:D
I'd definitely feel sorry for the folks at SP, and those they work with, given the resulting marketing and materials nightmare that would insue afterwards. They'd have 2 worlds to try and document game-wise. That's why I laughed out loud when I saw Cam saying he'd have a heart attack, then felt some sympathy at the same time. :D
edit- I think it would be more accepted, provided that continuity wise, it made sense, and that potentially both continuities were maintained. The diversity alone is kinda intriguing
You can never please everyone, so even if you changed it, people would want it changed a different way.
My problem would come from SP and everyone trying to keep up work on both timelines, and thats something I really dont want. While I could use stuff from the other timeline just fine, I dont really want to have to. There are many many things that I'd like to see sourcebooks, novels, etc made for... and another timeline would just sideline a lot of stuff.
We have gotten several good books from SP. I wish there were a lot more because for the most part the quality is spectacular. But I dont foresee loads of things coming out..so i wouldnt want anything that would make this even less.
But from the world standpoint.. eh it wouldnt be bad.. I just find no need. How about devote that time to fleshing out more cultures, regions, etc that exist now. There are lots of regions that are just begging for coverage.. and thats what I want to see :D .. not an alternate timeline of regions already all fleshed out.
I agree with True_Blue here when he says flesh out the rest of the regions, hell there is another side of the planet to explore yet so please lets go there first. I have to admit though at first the idea hit me as possibly being cool then after i thought about it I hated it. It wouldn't be the same DL anymore. Even if you went through and said that it wasn't Tak building power it was Sargonnas and the Minitour invasion happened early or somthing like that, because if it didn't end up like the Marvel comics have(which as much as I love them I can't stand to pay half as much attention to anymore) it would end up like Star Wars where the original History would be completely rewrote and its not the same world i fell in love with. I agree with Trampas that there would be to big of a rift, and I would be laying next to Cam in the hospital though not from a heart attack prob from jumping off a building. I would be too angry that they changed somthing i loved so much, i was almost this angry when i started reading boutg the Age of Mortals but now I like it, though i couldn't see myself doing that with this.
GCS
Failing that, an alternate DL where the Knights of Solamnia aren't such douchebags.
-TRRW
In game products? I'd say that was long overdue and "more power to em".
I've done this in my own campaign world - and I am continually amazed by the dogma of those who think its sacrilege.
Many people dislike that the big conflicts keep happening over and over again, so what would happen if they didn't happen or happened differently.
That's metaplot for you. Perhaps Dragonlance could finally move away from that and stop all crazy events that occur (we all remember what happened with the Fifth Age). Of course, that'll never happen while Margret Weis is still alive
And epic world changing events are what Dragonlance is known for, as well...
And epic world changing events are what Dragonlance is known for, as well...
Sad thing is, I know more than I can count on my hands and feet that have stopped playing on or reading the books of dragonlance because of this vary reason. There are quite a few out there that are just plain tired of the world going through something epic and world shattering ever other year. I, for one, love the world but and would never quit playing on it. However, I agree with them, and feel that it is time that Krynn gets that big break. Time for the world to catch its breath, if you ask me.
(we all remember what happened with the Fifth Age).
:headexplo
Oh no he didn't. Oh no he didn't...
Then Weis got this great idea to release more novels and milk the setting for more money. Dragonlance is Hickman's brain child and he deserves to continue it as he sees fit, not Weis' drivel (which isn't a very good trilogy, I might add).
Oh well, I guess you can't win...unless you know a Half-Orc that could dispose of her.
Wow. Is that a new movement? How many people here believe that Margaret is milking Dragonlance for all it's worth?
Weldon
wow...... this is the first time i've seen a Anti-margaret, Pro-Tracy kinda remark in alt.fan.dragonlance, the Dragonlance Mailing list, WotCforums, AND SPforurms........
Wow. Is that a new movement? How many people here believe that Margaret is milking Dragonlance for all it's worth?
Weldon
I loved (past tense) Margret's work, but its time to lay down the pen and find a nice place to retire.
And I am not saying that she is not a nice person, or that she may or may not have fans in mind. Its just that even those with the best intentions can do no better than whats been done after a certain point.
Margaret Weis, a core DragonLance author, and a genuinely nice lady who has always gone out of her way to be pleasant, kind and accessible to fans, continues to work on novels that millions love and gambles her money on a low margin high risk business like Sovereign Press - all with a view to making new gaming material for DragonLance fans to enjoy....
And you attack her for it? In a public forum designed for not only fans of her novels - but of her game products?
o_0
Hell. Travel to it. Stay there. Don't come back.
pretend i didn't say anything. why do people have to wreck potentially constructive discussion with burning anger?
oh lord. it's clear that he wasn't attacking margaret or her character. Lets stop that train before it starts.
But let's stem the flames before they start, ya?
You did read this part, right?"
Then Weis got this great idea to release more novels and milk the setting for more money. Dragonlance is Hickman's brain child and he deserves to continue it as he sees fit, not Weis' drivel (which isn't a very good trilogy, I might add).
Oh well, I guess you can't win...unless you know a Half-Orc that could dispose of her.
Yeah. Just a friendly observation between Hickman and Weis
When did the criticising of a persons actions become equivalent to the person themselves? Are we not allowed to love a person, but perhaps question their actions?
While that's at least one way to approach it, Tal, I think you'll find that in practice the finer details of criticism and appreciation are lost in an online message board, if they are even there to begin with. There is a considerable emotional distance between individuals, enough that it's far easier to slam somebody's work and feel nothing for them than it is to feel close to them and provide fair and balanced criticism.
Long story short, the flames already started. I wouldn't jump in to try and defend the guy at this point, unless you've got fire insurance.
Cheers,
Cam
holy crap.
never mind.
pretend i was talking about the concept of discussion on a hypothetical level, and not about that post in particular.
ugh.
Decaf cappucino?
Campfire melodies?
Slow dance in Lebanon?
Failing that, mayhaps we should all simply speak in emoticons?
Is it too late for me suggest a group hug?
You have a better chance of seeing Gygax and Arneson locked in a long, loving embrace.
:P When did this discussion took a turn off the track? The argument smack of "Who is the better Beatle: John Lennon or Paul McCartney?"
AFAIC, I have discounted any novel's storyline after "Second Generation." If you want to reboot the Fifth Age and on, by all means go ahead. Personally, I won't accept a re-imagined Fourth Age and the War of the Lance tales.
I feel that Weis and Hickman do need to let go of Dragonlance and allow the other writers to take it where they want. If they don't, we'll just get a Gary Gygax repeat: "My opinion, not yours. It is my game!" Weis is a good writer, yes, but don't you think after twenty years she could finally give the game to others, like they promised...what, after the Legends Trilogy? I dislike things that she has been doing lately, such as over riding older books about the Twins to write her own, but I do not hate her per se. I respect her as one of the founders, just as I respect many others.
Richard A. Knaak is a great guy, he could do some real good stuff with the universe. Of course, he would begin to shift it away from many of the core races...
Well, anyway, if Weis released a sourcebook which gave alternate timelines, she'd gain alot more respect from me. I've begun to hate the entanglement of metaplot. It can get very icky and make the game more...predictable.
EDIT: Actually, if anyone is interested in creating a fan made timeline, I'd be glad to help!
You have a better chance of seeing Gygax and Arneson locked in a long, loving embrace.
Is it really so that they hate each other with such a passion?!
BTW, is it true that Mrs Weiss and Mr Hickman had a falling out?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I personally must confess that I somewhat miss critical discussions about the recent DL stuff.
I mean, SP did marvellous books for gaming - ToHS was one of the best d20 books ever, but really I think, we, the fan base should make it clear that we won't accept another cataclysmic event like the *Return of the Gods* and *The Death of T*, at least in the next couple of years. To develop our own adventures, we need a stable setting that doesn't change every few years.
However, we should avoid to speak so bluntly about any person - on the other hand, I can understand very well that some fans think that way. The *revival* of DL, IMHO lacked the class of the earlier publications and sometimes seemed very artifcial to me.
I indeed would suggest them to redo and fix some parts of the setting, if possible, starting with the death and the deformation of most of the popular characters.
If that's not possible, then leave the world Krynn as we know it and don't develop it more at least for a while.
This question all of a sudden lept into my mind.
What would you say if Wizards of the Coast completely rebooted DL? What if they restarted with the War of the Lance and the Companions, but had the story happen different. What if they decided to make Raistlin turn good in the end, etc? What if Legends never happens?
Would you still enjoy DL? Say they do this after all of the major story arcs being worked on right now are finished, would you read the "new" DL?
As long as they kept everything up to Legends intact, my answer would be "thank God!"...
If that's not possible, then leave the world Krynn as we know it and don't develop it more at least for a while.
They are a publishing company first and foremost. If cataclysmic events that change the system every three years are what sells, then they'll just blow off the minority and keep making money. That's what White Wolf did to nearly twenty percent of its players, anyway...
However, we should avoid to speak so bluntly about any person - on the other hand, I can understand very well that some fans think that way. The *revival* of DL, IMHO lacked the class of the earlier publications and sometimes seemed very artifcial to me.
Actually, I like the 'new' d20 book. I like it even if I dislike many aspects of d20. It provided a good amount of crunch and a hefty amount of fluff, something you don't usually see with some of the more mainstream settings. I'll get around to reading some of the supplements eventually.
is it true that Mrs Weiss and Mr Hickman had a falling out?
Um, no, I doubt such a thing happened. If I painted that sort of picture, I apologize.
*HOWEVER*, Flaming is never acceptable conduct on these forums, and that includes authors, game designers, industry professionals, or folks that aren't or never have been members of these forums.
This is the one and ONLY warning that this thread is going to get.
Breaking [u]The Rules[/u] will land you a warn, more than two warns and you lose you screen names (all of 'em), break the rules after that and you're banned for good.
I hate doing that to people, but I [i][u]*WILL*[/i][/u] do it.
So behave.
My group would very much have liked canon to NOT have included:
The Chaos War
[INDENT]
We liked the idea of Ionthas being trapped in the Gregem.
We might even have enjoyed the idea of him being released in a much less world altering way.
We didn't like the destruction of the Irda homeland.
We didn't like the submission to and dominance of the Knights of Takhisis.
We didn't like the capture of Palanthus.
We didn't like the retreat of the Gods.
We didn't like the disappearance of Magic.
We didn't like the way the Heroes of the Lance were killed/sacrificed/dismissed.
This release of Chaos could have given rise to other changes to Krynn. Perhaps shaking up the nature of Divinity. Perhaps changing the nature of the Planes. Perhaps bringing forth new creatures. Perhaps changing some Kender. Perhaps Killing Takhisis and making Paladine Mortal.
Perhaps Dargonesti could have risen from the see floor or other lands appear elsewhere.
[/INDENT]
The main 5th age plots
[INDENT]
We were OK with Dragon Overlords rising up, but they all should have had some storyline in the existing world (ala Khalendros) and they should not have been aliens.
They would not have changed the climate/geography as drastically as they have, and would have settled closer to existing preferred climates. We would have been OK with some increase in existing Mountains, Glaciers, Deserts, Forests, etc..., but canon went much too far for all of our tastes.
We didn't like the destruction of Kendermore or the total control of the Elven Homelands by Dragon Overlords.
We didn't like the Ogre Titans, as they seemed to be poor substitutes for Nzunta.
We were OK with the introduction of Mysticism and Sorcery, but we see no conflict between them and the standard Divine and Arcane practices. We view Mysticism and Sorcery as Primal Magics that were always around but forgotten and only weilded by Huldrafolk, Scions, Dragons, and rare others before Ionthas was released. In our campaign, we do not limit a character to either Arcane or Divine or either Primal or Focused.
We didn't like the Maelstrom going away.
[/INDENT]
The War of Souls
[INDENT]
So much of this story was cleanup for the story chaos that resulted from the 2 situations above. It is not that so much of it was disliked on plot grounds, but my group considers it unnecessary and cludgy to a person.
My group absolutely hated the artificially constructed rationale of "stealing the world".
Again, my group didn't like the destruction of both Elven Homelands.
We are OK with Thoradin being rediscovered. That had already happened in our campaigns. The Minotaurs could have invaded Kendermore instead of Silvanesti. The only thing we really liked was the additional metaphysics treatise at the back of the Hardcover, which didn't make an appearance in subsequent editions, and didn't seem to be well received by many.
[/INDENT]
Additionally, all of these changes could have been laid out over a longer time period. This would have given the Heroes of the Lance and Second Generation time to have faded away and become historic background for the world, rather than continueing to dominate the story lines... This would have given home campaigns time to have wandered in a stable setting for a while if they wished, or to have deviated significantly and still had a bit of time to synchronize with canon. Our group has done some of the above, but not all.
I understand that many will disagree in part or whole with all of the opinions above. I understand that some will say that Krynn is about continuous catastrophic and world-changing events. I understand that some will say that Krynn was too dependant on the Heroes of the Lance and that the 5th age and subsequent other changes have made it a more interesting place. Some will suggest that I am merely whining, and that my group should continue implimenting changes like any of those I have mentioned above and stop trying to force someone else to play a campaign different from how they are/will. I realize that some will say "spilled milk" and feel angered/betrayed by those who cannot fully embrace every canon storyline or game suppliment.
Suffice it to say that I disagree and that my group of 8 (and I suspect a sizable fraction of the fanbase) feel that we have been truer to the feel and flow of a Dragonlance Campaign than the various canonical authors have been. We feel betrayed by those who have forced us to modify our campaigns from canon in ever larger pieces. I know that people have different opinions, tastes, etc... I know that many like most or all of the canonical changes. I know that the changes made have been many and drastic. I do not consider numerous drastic changes to be an efficient method of ensuring thematic or atmospheric continuity. I do not feel betrayed by those who enjoy 5th age or post War of Souls. I am sure that many of these fine people would be happy playing a Campaign called something else with slightly similar aspects. I am sure that most will enjoy any further drastic changes that happen on Krynn. I feel betrayed by the management decisions at TSR, WotC, and Sovereign Press that have lead to the authoring of canonical works that have put the campaign world and fan base in this situation. My group has purchased some of the 3e material so far, and much of it has been good. Less and less of it is considered good/useful to us; however, and this is what gets reflected back at the community and the financials of Sovereign Press. Perhaps Sovereign Press is having wonderful financial and artistic success. Perhaps farming out fantasy world real estate to authors and slapping on the Dragonlance logo continues to garner large book sales and wealth for them. Good for them. It means less and less to my group regardless.