Why is the Thenegioth Archipelago a lost world? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Why is the Thenegioth Archipelago a lost world?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Feb 18, 2005 22:59:53 I was looking at the map in Dawn of the Emperors over Christmas (unfortunately, like most of my D&D books it's at my parents house) and I noticed that the Thenegioth Archipelago is just outside Thyatian territory. Some of the major Thyatian islands (I believe it was the Pearl Islands) are not far away at all. So why is have Thyatian explorers not covered the area yet? It's pretty clear in X1 that the archipelago's meant to be mostly unexplored.

I don't see the Isle of Dread and surrounding islands as that much more dangerous than the other areas in the Sea of Dread. The Thyatian Hinterlands are hundreds of miles to the south - why would they bypass these islands to start colonies there, when they're so close to the Pearl Islands? You'd think there'd be common trade with the Pearl Islanders (who, remember, visit mainland Thyatis enough that a fair bit of their culture is spreading through the Empire, including the concept of the Rake).

So, in your campaign, what is it that keeps Thyatis away from the Isle of Dread while letting occasional pirates and PC's visit it? Ancient superstation on the part of the Pearl Islanders which has pursuaded every Thyatian who's considered exploring it to move on to other areas? (But I don't see mainland Thyatians giving in meekly to colonial superstition - they'd see it as a challenge!) Maybe it's just considered not worth the bother compared to the memories of great empires on the southern continent - but this diminishes the PC's accomplishments in exploring it. ("Oh, you've been to the Isle of Dread, have you? Good for you! We've never bothered.") Maybe there was an ancient Kopru spell of concealment or warding, meant to protect the seat of their empire, which has recently worn off - if so, I think the players deserve to find that out in-game.

What do you think?
#2
Hugin
Feb 18, 2005 23:56:13 I've always thought that the waters surrounding the islands were very treacherous. The ancestors of the Thyatians suffered great loss to these waters, hence they called it the Sea of Dread. Between the storms that strike without warning and the reefs and shoals that plague the region, the risk out-wieghts the rewards of establishing permanent settlements (at least according to the current mind-set). It is a place where the judgements of nature are fierce and swift, and to those on the seas, all too frequent.

Perhaps there's also a political reason. Conquering nations to bring them into the enlightenment of Imperial civilization is a very good political move; it makes the person more popular to the masses and therefore more influential. Losses to the forces of nature in which the swing of a sword is futile and victory merely survival means the politician who spearheaded the endevour will be less popular. At least the Hinterlands bring much resources into the Empire; both in valuables and in slaves.

I think all it takes to turn attitudes around is a good reason to colonize the islands, something PCs would be praised for discovering should they find that something.

AFAIK, the reason it's called "lost" has to due with time and the presence of dinosaurs and otherwise extinct life.
#3
zombiegleemax
Feb 19, 2005 9:19:27 You have to remember, in medieval times ships rarely sailed out of sight of land, unless the waters were very well known. Even magic would have its limitations in assisting seafarers unless they knew where they were going, especially on trips hundreds of miles away from the mainland. It's about 700 miles from the southernmost of the isles of the mainland to the Archipelago... that's much too far to travel when you don't know where you are going. Heck, Iceland is only about 500 miles from Britain and it wasn't discovered until the 9th century!

Plus, as mentioned, there are lots more monsters in Mystara than there were in the Real World, adn the Thanegioth is swarming with them!

Myself, I added in the factor that the great monolith on the Forbodden Plateau has a deleterious effect on any divination or travel magic within ~500 miles... kinda like an extrusion of the Hollow World effects.

Also, IMC the Thanegioth is not totally unknown! the easternmost island is Nueva Ispanola, an Archcounty of Ispans settled around 900 AC, IIRC. Its in the zone where the bad magic aura fades, so it wasn't as difficult to settle... though much of the island is still wild. Details can be found in the Vaults of Pandius.
#4
Hugin
Feb 19, 2005 10:01:41
You have to remember, in medieval times ships rarely sailed out of sight of land, unless the waters were very well known. Even magic would have its limitations in assisting seafarers unless they knew where they were going, especially on trips hundreds of miles away from the mainland.

True, sea voyages were dangerous and risky enough without having to tackle the really hazardous places. I think it's a good thing to keep open sea voyages a risky endevour and should not be taken lightly. If you were to risk it, you'd better have top-notch sailors and an accomplished navigator (and a cleric who has the ear of his Patron wouldn't hurt either).

Plus, as mentioned, there are lots more monsters in Mystara than there were in the Real World, adn the Thanegioth is swarming with them!

I completely forgot about the monsters! (What kind of DM am I to forget about them?!!!)

Also, IMC the Thanegioth is not totally unknown! the easternmost island is Nueva Ispanola, an Archcounty of Ispans settled around 900 AC, IIRC. Its in the zone where the bad magic aura fades, so it wasn't as difficult to settle... though much of the island is still wild. Details can be found in the Vaults of Pandius.

I read that article not too long ago when there was alot of discussion on the MML about the Belcadiz Elves. I really enjoyed it. I'm sure the Thanegioth's existance is known, it's just not detailed to any extent. As a matter of fact, as Joe statted, there's likely to be many superstitions and legends about the area that are as varied as can be imagined.
#5
spellweaver
Feb 19, 2005 12:54:24 Well, like Hugin said, it's not called the Sea of Dread for no reason :D

Storms and monsters could quickly put an end to most seamens' desire to venture into such waters. Sure, a military expedition appointed by the emperor or some such might be forced to explore it, but the cost in men and ships would be high and probably ultimately not worth it.

The treacherous waters around Cape Horn and Cape Good Hope are some of the most infamous and deadly waters AFAIK and looking for a way to avoid them was what spawned Columbus' trip to America and later expeditions across Panama to the Pacific.

In much the same way the Sea of Dread will be avoided by Known World sailors. Fortunately, it IS possible to go around to, closer to land, so most seafarers just avoid it altogether. IMO that is the only reason why dinosaurs and other lost world races survived there for so long without being hunted to extinction or placed in game parks like in Ierendi.

:-) Jesper
#6
zombiegleemax
Feb 19, 2005 19:36:51 Ok, so if the Sea of Dread is so dangerous and ships rarely leave sight of shore, how come Ochalea and the Pearl Islands are part of the Thyatian Empire?
#7
katana_one
Feb 19, 2005 23:18:38
Ok, so if the Sea of Dread is so dangerous and ships rarely leave sight of shore, how come Ochalea and the Pearl Islands are part of the Thyatian Empire?

Well, for one thing, Ochalea and the Pearl Islands are technically in the Sea of Dawn, not the Sea of Dread. Second, Ochalea is a lot closer to the Imperial mainland than the Thanegioth Archipelago (sp?), and the Pearl Islands are also relatively close to Ochalea (and both kingdoms are relatively close to the Isle of Dawn). All of this being relevant to the earlier-posted hypothesis of ships not travelling too far out of sight of land.

At least, that's how I remember the positions of the different kingdoms - but then again, I'm very sleepy right now and too lazy to look it up.
#8
zombiegleemax
Mar 17, 2005 15:10:11 The idea that Thyatian ships didn't leave sight of the shore is a good one. In fact that's how i explained it too. Remember the hinterlands are a recent conquest, but the Thyatians would have remembered it in their stories and legends. They went looking for it. The Alphatians would have provided info on IoD, if that info had been lost. Once exploring its extent, You could maybe see Ochalea from IoD's southernmost point? There would almost certainly be contact with the Pearlanders. and then rumors of the dark continent nearby.

IMC, though, Thyatis did know about the island chain but had been so busy with Ravenscarp and the war in the Hinterlands that few resources were diverted to here. I did give them a secret military base on the easternmost island (where Nueva Ispanola is being situated). This is a secret base because IMC this is where the Thyatians try their hand at crafting flying ships and other dangerous construction projects. Of course, I had the Thyatians doing this in AC1002-4, years before the almanac said they did. The prototype was a complete success, but was so costly (and the war was starting) that the Emperor couldn't afford another. Then through the actions of some not-so-bright PCs The Emperor had to deny it's existence and sever his ties to it. He sends what help he can because the crew are extremely loyal Thyatian military, but it is rare and sparse.

BTW I hated that when they finally give Thyatis the means to make a flying ship that they went with the standard alphatian man-o-war design, totally disregarding the Retebius Air Fleet. IMC the flying ship resembles a huge scorpion and serves more like an aircraft carrier (for the fleet) than a battleship. It holds 2 squads of 6 riders. It is built for housing smaller creatures like hippogriffs, griffons, giant eagles, and pegasi (although you should never put griffons with anything but griffons). I so wish I could post my schematics on it.
#9
zombiegleemax
Mar 17, 2005 15:19:30
Ok, so if the Sea of Dread is so dangerous and ships rarely leave sight of shore, how come Ochalea and the Pearl Islands are part of the Thyatian Empire?

They were originally part of the Alphatian Empire, but were "intrigued" (by killing the rulers and taking their children hostage), into the Thyatian Empire around 0AC by the first Thyatian Emperor.

Mark
#10
Mortepierre
Mar 18, 2005 2:25:00 Just a wild idea but.. could the archipelago be an experiment from Ka about reintroducing Hollow World fauna to the 'outer world'?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Feb 18, 2005 22:59:53	I was looking at the map in Dawn of the Emperors over Christmas (unfortunately, like most of my D&D books it's at my parents house) and I noticed that the Thenegioth Archipelago is just outside Thyatian territory. Some of the major Thyatian islands (I believe it was the Pearl Islands) are not far away at all. So why is have Thyatian explorers not covered the area yet? It's pretty clear in X1 that the archipelago's meant to be mostly unexplored. I don't see the Isle of Dread and surrounding islands as that much more dangerous than the other areas in the Sea of Dread. The Thyatian Hinterlands are hundreds of miles to the south - why would they bypass these islands to start colonies there, when they're so close to the Pearl Islands? You'd think there'd be common trade with the Pearl Islanders (who, remember, visit mainland Thyatis enough that a fair bit of their culture is spreading through the Empire, including the concept of the Rake). So, in your campaign, what is it that keeps Thyatis away from the Isle of Dread while letting occasional pirates and PC's visit it? Ancient superstation on the part of the Pearl Islanders which has pursuaded every Thyatian who's considered exploring it to move on to other areas? (But I don't see mainland Thyatians giving in meekly to colonial superstition - they'd see it as a challenge!) Maybe it's just considered not worth the bother compared to the memories of great empires on the southern continent - but this diminishes the PC's accomplishments in exploring it. ("Oh, you've been to the Isle of Dread, have you? Good for you! We've never bothered.") Maybe there was an ancient Kopru spell of concealment or warding, meant to protect the seat of their empire, which has recently worn off - if so, I think the players deserve to find that out in-game. What do you think?
#2 Hugin Feb 18, 2005 23:56:13	I've always thought that the waters surrounding the islands were very treacherous. The ancestors of the Thyatians suffered great loss to these waters, hence they called it the Sea of Dread. Between the storms that strike without warning and the reefs and shoals that plague the region, the risk out-wieghts the rewards of establishing permanent settlements (at least according to the current mind-set). It is a place where the judgements of nature are fierce and swift, and to those on the seas, all too frequent. Perhaps there's also a political reason. Conquering nations to bring them into the enlightenment of Imperial civilization is a very good political move; it makes the person more popular to the masses and therefore more influential. Losses to the forces of nature in which the swing of a sword is futile and victory merely survival means the politician who spearheaded the endevour will be less popular. At least the Hinterlands bring much resources into the Empire; both in valuables and in slaves. I think all it takes to turn attitudes around is a good reason to colonize the islands, something PCs would be praised for discovering should they find that something. AFAIK, the reason it's called "lost" has to due with time and the presence of dinosaurs and otherwise extinct life.
#3 zombiegleemax Feb 19, 2005 9:19:27	You have to remember, in medieval times ships rarely sailed out of sight of land, unless the waters were very well known. Even magic would have its limitations in assisting seafarers unless they knew where they were going, especially on trips hundreds of miles away from the mainland. It's about 700 miles from the southernmost of the isles of the mainland to the Archipelago... that's much too far to travel when you don't know where you are going. Heck, Iceland is only about 500 miles from Britain and it wasn't discovered until the 9th century! Plus, as mentioned, there are lots more monsters in Mystara than there were in the Real World, adn the Thanegioth is swarming with them! Myself, I added in the factor that the great monolith on the Forbodden Plateau has a deleterious effect on any divination or travel magic within ~500 miles... kinda like an extrusion of the Hollow World effects. Also, IMC the Thanegioth is not totally unknown! the easternmost island is Nueva Ispanola, an Archcounty of Ispans settled around 900 AC, IIRC. Its in the zone where the bad magic aura fades, so it wasn't as difficult to settle... though much of the island is still wild. Details can be found in the Vaults of Pandius.
#4 Hugin Feb 19, 2005 10:01:41	You have to remember, in medieval times ships rarely sailed out of sight of land, unless the waters were very well known. Even magic would have its limitations in assisting seafarers unless they knew where they were going, especially on trips hundreds of miles away from the mainland. True, sea voyages were dangerous and risky enough without having to tackle the really hazardous places. I think it's a good thing to keep open sea voyages a risky endevour and should not be taken lightly. If you were to risk it, you'd better have top-notch sailors and an accomplished navigator (and a cleric who has the ear of his Patron wouldn't hurt either). Plus, as mentioned, there are lots more monsters in Mystara than there were in the Real World, adn the Thanegioth is swarming with them! I completely forgot about the monsters! (What kind of DM am I to forget about them?!!!) Also, IMC the Thanegioth is not totally unknown! the easternmost island is Nueva Ispanola, an Archcounty of Ispans settled around 900 AC, IIRC. Its in the zone where the bad magic aura fades, so it wasn't as difficult to settle... though much of the island is still wild. Details can be found in the Vaults of Pandius. I read that article not too long ago when there was alot of discussion on the MML about the Belcadiz Elves. I really enjoyed it. I'm sure the Thanegioth's existance is known, it's just not detailed to any extent. As a matter of fact, as Joe statted, there's likely to be many superstitions and legends about the area that are as varied as can be imagined.
#5 spellweaver Feb 19, 2005 12:54:24	Well, like Hugin said, it's not called the Sea of Dread for no reason :D Storms and monsters could quickly put an end to most seamens' desire to venture into such waters. Sure, a military expedition appointed by the emperor or some such might be forced to explore it, but the cost in men and ships would be high and probably ultimately not worth it. The treacherous waters around Cape Horn and Cape Good Hope are some of the most infamous and deadly waters AFAIK and looking for a way to avoid them was what spawned Columbus' trip to America and later expeditions across Panama to the Pacific. In much the same way the Sea of Dread will be avoided by Known World sailors. Fortunately, it IS possible to go around to, closer to land, so most seafarers just avoid it altogether. IMO that is the only reason why dinosaurs and other lost world races survived there for so long without being hunted to extinction or placed in game parks like in Ierendi. :-) Jesper
#6 zombiegleemax Feb 19, 2005 19:36:51	Ok, so if the Sea of Dread is so dangerous and ships rarely leave sight of shore, how come Ochalea and the Pearl Islands are part of the Thyatian Empire?
#7 katana_one Feb 19, 2005 23:18:38	Ok, so if the Sea of Dread is so dangerous and ships rarely leave sight of shore, how come Ochalea and the Pearl Islands are part of the Thyatian Empire? Well, for one thing, Ochalea and the Pearl Islands are technically in the Sea of Dawn, not the Sea of Dread. Second, Ochalea is a lot closer to the Imperial mainland than the Thanegioth Archipelago (sp?), and the Pearl Islands are also relatively close to Ochalea (and both kingdoms are relatively close to the Isle of Dawn). All of this being relevant to the earlier-posted hypothesis of ships not travelling too far out of sight of land. At least, that's how I remember the positions of the different kingdoms - but then again, I'm very sleepy right now and too lazy to look it up.
#8 zombiegleemax Mar 17, 2005 15:10:11	The idea that Thyatian ships didn't leave sight of the shore is a good one. In fact that's how i explained it too. Remember the hinterlands are a recent conquest, but the Thyatians would have remembered it in their stories and legends. They went looking for it. The Alphatians would have provided info on IoD, if that info had been lost. Once exploring its extent, You could maybe see Ochalea from IoD's southernmost point? There would almost certainly be contact with the Pearlanders. and then rumors of the dark continent nearby. IMC, though, Thyatis did know about the island chain but had been so busy with Ravenscarp and the war in the Hinterlands that few resources were diverted to here. I did give them a secret military base on the easternmost island (where Nueva Ispanola is being situated). This is a secret base because IMC this is where the Thyatians try their hand at crafting flying ships and other dangerous construction projects. Of course, I had the Thyatians doing this in AC1002-4, years before the almanac said they did. The prototype was a complete success, but was so costly (and the war was starting) that the Emperor couldn't afford another. Then through the actions of some not-so-bright PCs The Emperor had to deny it's existence and sever his ties to it. He sends what help he can because the crew are extremely loyal Thyatian military, but it is rare and sparse. BTW I hated that when they finally give Thyatis the means to make a flying ship that they went with the standard alphatian man-o-war design, totally disregarding the Retebius Air Fleet. IMC the flying ship resembles a huge scorpion and serves more like an aircraft carrier (for the fleet) than a battleship. It holds 2 squads of 6 riders. It is built for housing smaller creatures like hippogriffs, griffons, giant eagles, and pegasi (although you should never put griffons with anything but griffons). I so wish I could post my schematics on it.
#9 zombiegleemax Mar 17, 2005 15:19:30	Ok, so if the Sea of Dread is so dangerous and ships rarely leave sight of shore, how come Ochalea and the Pearl Islands are part of the Thyatian Empire? They were originally part of the Alphatian Empire, but were "intrigued" (by killing the rulers and taking their children hostage), into the Thyatian Empire around 0AC by the first Thyatian Emperor. Mark
#10 Mortepierre Mar 18, 2005 2:25:00	Just a wild idea but.. could the archipelago be an experiment from Ka about reintroducing Hollow World fauna to the 'outer world'?