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Lvl. 24 dragon?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
franco_un-american
Feb 19, 2005 16:05:00 I've heard lots of references to the SK's having "dragon" levels. I've been somewhat able to gather that was a "class" in 2E. Has anyone came up with a 3.X analogy to them?

PS:For curiosity's sake, where can I find the levels of the SK's? I've found Dregoth's but that's it.
#2
dawnstealer
Feb 19, 2005 17:14:29 A few people have come up with remakes, myself included. The trick is getting it to mesh with 3.x without making it too level-heavy. The original dragons, if you didn't know, required 20 levels in both psion and wizard. Some of our locals have cut that down a bit. Xlor's conversion comes to mind and I'd expect to see him quip in here, pretty soon. His is pretty good and you should check it out.

Levels. Depends on when you're talking about. Pre-Prism Pentad, the best location was Dragon Kings. Afterwards, there's the Wanderer's Chronical (second boxed set) and Beyond the Prism Pentad.
#3
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Feb 20, 2005 0:53:49 "Quip"

Umm... actually.... the work that's being done in the Epic Bureau for Athas.org is pretty good - hopefully, we'll have something out for the public soon.

Mine is pretty good - but it's been long enough since I made it, that I've begun to see the blaring errors of my ways (plus, some strong arguements brought up in the Epic Bureau). Kinda thinking of some alterations to my system - just haven't had the time or energy to put forth for it lately.
#4
dawnstealer
Feb 20, 2005 1:31:25 Basically, Xlor and I had this discussion some time ago. Really, what it comes down to is this: do you want the metamorphosis primarily for PCs or high-level NPCs? From here, there are two routes:

PCs:
Make it a bit easier. 9th level spells, but maybe 5th or so psionic powers. This allows for both Psychic warriors and psions to become super-beings. The requirements for casting the spells (quests, money, sacrifices) should remain unchanged.

NPCs:
Why not keep it the way it is? Require 9th level spells and powers.

My setup followed the second (my players like the lower levels, often creating new characters when they get close to 10-13), so dragons were only ever NPCs in my campaigns. For this reason, they are massively overpowered. Keep this in mind while reading below.

Prerequisites: Must be human; Int=18+, Wis=16+, Con=15+; Must be able to cast 9th level spells; Must be able to manifest 9th level powers; Spellcraft=25+; Psycraft=25+; Knowledge (Psionics)=25+; Knowledge (Magic)=25+. Provided they meet all those criteria, they can go ahead with the first metamorph spell.

Class Information
Class Level Effects
1 +15 Base Attack, +15 Fort, +10 Ref, +8 Will, +0 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 1, Bonus Feat.
2 +20 Base Attack, +18 Fort, +12 Ref, +12 Will, +0 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 2, Bonus Feat.
3 +25 Base Attack, +21 Fort, +14 Ref, +16 Will, +0 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 3.
4 +30 Base Attack, +24 Fort, +16 Ref, +20 Will, +4 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 4, Bonus Feat.
5 +35 Base Attack, +28 Fort, +18 Ref, +24 Will, +8 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 5, Rages begin (Will 60 to resist).
6 +40 Base Attack, +32 Fort, +20 Ref, +28 Will, +15 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 6, Bonus Feat.
7 +45 Base Attack, +36 Fort, +22 Ref, +32 Will, +24 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 7.
8 +50 Base Attack, +40 Fort, +24 Ref, +36 Will, +30 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 8, Bonus Feat.
9 +55 Base Attack, +44 Fort, +26 Ref, +40 Will, +40 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 9.
10 +60 Base Attack, +48 Fort, +28 Ref, +44 Will, +55 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 10, Bonus Feat.

Dragon Level
1 +5 Str, +0 Dex, +5 Con, SR=0, Fear=0, Breath=0, HD=10d4, Regen=1/rnd.
2 +10 Str, +0 Dex, +10 Con, SR=0, Fear=0, Breath=0, HD=5d4, Regen=1/rnd.
3 +15 Str, +0 Dex, +15 Con, SR=0, Fear=0, Breath=0, HD=3d4, Regen=1/rnd.
4 +20 Str, +1 Dex, +20 Con, SR=0, Fear=12, Breath=0, HD=2d4, Regen=2/rnd.
5 +25 Str, +1 Dex, +25 Con, SR=5, Fear=14, Breath=0, HD=2d4, Regen=2/rnd.
6 +30 Str, +1 Dex, +30 Con, SR=10, Fear=16, Breath=0, HD=3d4, Regen=3/rnd.
7 +35 Str, +2 Dex, +35 Con, SR=15, Fear=20, Breath=10d12, HD=3d4, Regen=4/rnd.
8 +40 Str, +2 Dex, +40 Con, SR=20, Fear=25, Breath=15d12, HD=4d4, Regen=6/rnd.
9 +45 Str, +3 Dex, +45 Con, SR=25, Fear=30, Breath=20d12, HD=4d4, Regen=8/rnd.
10 +50 Str, +4 Dex, +50 Con, SR=30, Fear=40, Breath=25d12, HD=5d4, Regen=10/rnd.

Somewhere, I had the damage reduction, too, but can't remember it. As long as this is for an NPC, this should get you started. With a little bit of tweaking (maybe a lot), it could work for a PC, too.

Good luck!
#5
zombiegleemax
Feb 20, 2005 11:30:34 I think in the final version 9th level powers should still be a requirement, because a Psychic Warrior can just take 3 epic feats to achieve the ability to manifest them, and this would represent the slight bit of extra study required for a martial-oriented character to achieve the metamorphosis, and preserve the original requirement for almost 40 character levels to begin the transformation. Even with the 9th level spell/power requirements, a wiz5/psi5/Cerebremancer4/Mind Mage10 (from Dragon Magazine #313) would have all the requirements met for either Dragon or Avangion metamorphosis at character level 24, whether PsyWar or Psion, have a higher chance of breaching the spell resistance of opponents than a straight-up wizard/psion of equivalent level), better saves, and would recieve double their intelligence bonus to set the DCs to resist their powers and spells. All this, along with the ability to basically pay power points to boost spells metamagically or lower them to a lesser slot (Yes, you can have a WISH SPELL occupy a level 1 slot for the meager cost of 72 power points), and use spell slots to do the same things to powers, and use telekinesis-type powers to deliver touch spells, would make it kinda unreasonable NOT to take this path towards Dragonhood, and so the 9th level power requirement would not really be an issue. I realize this post of mine is convoluted, but I had a a lot I wanted to say and no more coherent way to say it. PS-To the Overcouncil-You guys should ask Pazio if you can adopt the Mind Mage for the site. It's so perfect for Dark Sun! And, it could be adapted to use divine casting instead of arcane, and so could work for Advanced Being Elementals, as well!
#6
dawnstealer
Feb 20, 2005 12:11:51 Your mention of Wish reminded me:

"Dragon Magic," in my campaigns, is a special ability that dragons and avangions have when they are in contact with their obsidian ball. In addition to their spells and being-powers, they also get the following:

Level Ability
1 Limited Wish 1/week
2 Limited Wish 1/week
3 Limited Wish 1/week
4 Limited Wish 2/week
5 Limited Wish 2/week
6 Limited Wish 3/week
7 Limited Wish 4/week
8 Limited Wish 5/week
9 Limited Wish 1/day
10 Wish 1/week

This accounts for all the weird things Borys and the other dragons could do in the books. It may or may not work for your campaign and, like I said, this class was aimed at NPCs and not PCs.
#7
zombiegleemax
Feb 20, 2005 13:12:45 The Dragon write-up is good stuff, Dawnstealer. I'm probably going to use it with minor modifications as an interim Dragon metsamorphosis until Athas.org finally releases the official one. I'm most likely going to make a rule for my game in which you must gain enough XP to advance 2 levels in order to gain a level of Dragon, in attempt to preserve ECL balance and such, but your write-up is basically what I was hoping for. My idea was to use the statistics for a either the Prismatic Dragon from the EpLvHBas the base, except for size, or the Fang Dragon from Monsters of Faerun,(Because the picture of the Dragon on Valley of Dust and Fire has disproportionately large claws and maw) which I would make Gargantuan be the final size, and reverse-engineer level-based ability adjustments from there. Waddya think about the Mind Mage and Cerebremancer being the best route to go as far as achieving the requirements for Dragonhood or Avangion Metamorphosis? Do you know of a more efficient path?
#8
dawnstealer
Feb 20, 2005 13:52:46 As far as the dragon goes, my intention was to stick to the DS original, which had a full-grown Dragon of Tyr as more powerful than a Great Wyrm Golden Dragon. Using my final stats as a the Goldy, I just worked backwards to make the numbers work and stick with canon material.

As far as the two mage classes you mentioned: I can't really comment. They sound very good, but I haven't had time to completely check them out. I tend to stick to the areas that my players show interest in and, so far, none of them have delved into mindmages or cerebremancers. Although I'm sure they will at some point.
#9
zombiegleemax
Feb 20, 2005 13:55:59 I had originally thought of using the Gold as a baseline as well, but then I remembered the Prismatic, which is quite a bit more powerful, and decided to go from there. The Gold is the paragon standard of dragonkind, though, and is an excellent starting point. I'm basically just trying to develop a dragon that could throw down with and win against lesser deities, because my players all want to become Advanced Beings of varying natures, I have hopeful Dragons, Avangions and Elemental Clerics, and they eventually want to leave Athas, kick some divine tail, and establish themselves as a pantheon. Which, since I plan to let them use a modification of a certain undead SK's vortex-bogarting spell, shouldn't be hard. Start a religeon on Eberron, Greyhawk or Faerun, make people believe it by granting spells to priests, and then slay a god or two to steal divine ranks. You already have a worship base, so sustaining one's deityhood by having a cult or religeon of worshippers is already taken care of. If disaster strikes and you lose all your worshippers and possibly your divine ranks, move on to the next world and repeat the process. But , I digress......
#10
dawnstealer
Feb 20, 2005 14:17:50 You also have to remember that Dragons (and avangions) have access to epic level spells and are both (at least) 20th level in both psion and wizard. That's quite a handful for anyone, minor dieties included. Of course, when dealing with dieties, it all comes down to home turf. I also gave the SKs (just the SKs) scrying ability on their own land. This was representative of thousands of years of walking their land, skimming people's thoughts, and so on. In essence, an SK would know when something "off" happened on their land.
#11
zombiegleemax
Feb 20, 2005 14:30:56 I definetely agree about the epic spells being a potential thorn in a diety's side, especially since Advanced Beings would have access to a ton of them because of being psions AND wizards. That, coupled with psionic enchantments and Dragon or Avangion Magic (However that ends up being done) would indeed give them useful tools for god-slaying.Heh... Hamanu vs. Kord. Round one. Fight!!!!
#12
Pennarin
Feb 20, 2005 15:33:43 Xlorep, I know you had problems concerning the epic seeds and other spell rules from the ELH, well I found that WotC created a new epic seed for one of its books, something I never thought they would do.

Check out Lost Empires of Faerûn for the Mythal seed.

If a new seed can be built for something as specific as mythal construction then perhaps the same can be done for merging psionics and magic on an epic level, and for the metamorphosises of course.
#13
zombiegleemax
Feb 20, 2005 15:49:21 I've always hoped that Psionic Enchantments would allow the use of PP as a mitigating factor, preferably a special one that is done before such things as multiplying the DC due to permanency and such. And maybe letting Spellcraft and Psicraft ranks when trying to meet the spellcraft DCs to cast epic-level magic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 franco_un-american Feb 19, 2005 16:05:00	I've heard lots of references to the SK's having "dragon" levels. I've been somewhat able to gather that was a "class" in 2E. Has anyone came up with a 3.X analogy to them? PS:For curiosity's sake, where can I find the levels of the SK's? I've found Dregoth's but that's it.
#2 dawnstealer Feb 19, 2005 17:14:29	A few people have come up with remakes, myself included. The trick is getting it to mesh with 3.x without making it too level-heavy. The original dragons, if you didn't know, required 20 levels in both psion and wizard. Some of our locals have cut that down a bit. Xlor's conversion comes to mind and I'd expect to see him quip in here, pretty soon. His is pretty good and you should check it out. Levels. Depends on when you're talking about. Pre-Prism Pentad, the best location was Dragon Kings. Afterwards, there's the Wanderer's Chronical (second boxed set) and Beyond the Prism Pentad.
#3 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Feb 20, 2005 0:53:49	"Quip" Umm... actually.... the work that's being done in the Epic Bureau for Athas.org is pretty good - hopefully, we'll have something out for the public soon. Mine is pretty good - but it's been long enough since I made it, that I've begun to see the blaring errors of my ways (plus, some strong arguements brought up in the Epic Bureau). Kinda thinking of some alterations to my system - just haven't had the time or energy to put forth for it lately.
#4 dawnstealer Feb 20, 2005 1:31:25	Basically, Xlor and I had this discussion some time ago. Really, what it comes down to is this: do you want the metamorphosis primarily for PCs or high-level NPCs? From here, there are two routes: PCs: Make it a bit easier. 9th level spells, but maybe 5th or so psionic powers. This allows for both Psychic warriors and psions to become super-beings. The requirements for casting the spells (quests, money, sacrifices) should remain unchanged. NPCs: Why not keep it the way it is? Require 9th level spells and powers. My setup followed the second (my players like the lower levels, often creating new characters when they get close to 10-13), so dragons were only ever NPCs in my campaigns. For this reason, they are massively overpowered. Keep this in mind while reading below. Prerequisites: Must be human; Int=18+, Wis=16+, Con=15+; Must be able to cast 9th level spells; Must be able to manifest 9th level powers; Spellcraft=25+; Psycraft=25+; Knowledge (Psionics)=25+; Knowledge (Magic)=25+. Provided they meet all those criteria, they can go ahead with the first metamorph spell. Class Information Class Level Effects 1 +15 Base Attack, +15 Fort, +10 Ref, +8 Will, +0 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 1, Bonus Feat. 2 +20 Base Attack, +18 Fort, +12 Ref, +12 Will, +0 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 2, Bonus Feat. 3 +25 Base Attack, +21 Fort, +14 Ref, +16 Will, +0 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 3. 4 +30 Base Attack, +24 Fort, +16 Ref, +20 Will, +4 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 4, Bonus Feat. 5 +35 Base Attack, +28 Fort, +18 Ref, +24 Will, +8 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 5, Rages begin (Will 60 to resist). 6 +40 Base Attack, +32 Fort, +20 Ref, +28 Will, +15 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 6, Bonus Feat. 7 +45 Base Attack, +36 Fort, +22 Ref, +32 Will, +24 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 7. 8 +50 Base Attack, +40 Fort, +24 Ref, +36 Will, +30 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 8, Bonus Feat. 9 +55 Base Attack, +44 Fort, +26 Ref, +40 Will, +40 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 9. 10 +60 Base Attack, +48 Fort, +28 Ref, +44 Will, +55 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 10, Bonus Feat. Dragon Level 1 +5 Str, +0 Dex, +5 Con, SR=0, Fear=0, Breath=0, HD=10d4, Regen=1/rnd. 2 +10 Str, +0 Dex, +10 Con, SR=0, Fear=0, Breath=0, HD=5d4, Regen=1/rnd. 3 +15 Str, +0 Dex, +15 Con, SR=0, Fear=0, Breath=0, HD=3d4, Regen=1/rnd. 4 +20 Str, +1 Dex, +20 Con, SR=0, Fear=12, Breath=0, HD=2d4, Regen=2/rnd. 5 +25 Str, +1 Dex, +25 Con, SR=5, Fear=14, Breath=0, HD=2d4, Regen=2/rnd. 6 +30 Str, +1 Dex, +30 Con, SR=10, Fear=16, Breath=0, HD=3d4, Regen=3/rnd. 7 +35 Str, +2 Dex, +35 Con, SR=15, Fear=20, Breath=10d12, HD=3d4, Regen=4/rnd. 8 +40 Str, +2 Dex, +40 Con, SR=20, Fear=25, Breath=15d12, HD=4d4, Regen=6/rnd. 9 +45 Str, +3 Dex, +45 Con, SR=25, Fear=30, Breath=20d12, HD=4d4, Regen=8/rnd. 10 +50 Str, +4 Dex, +50 Con, SR=30, Fear=40, Breath=25d12, HD=5d4, Regen=10/rnd. Somewhere, I had the damage reduction, too, but can't remember it. As long as this is for an NPC, this should get you started. With a little bit of tweaking (maybe a lot), it could work for a PC, too. Good luck!
#5 zombiegleemax Feb 20, 2005 11:30:34	I think in the final version 9th level powers should still be a requirement, because a Psychic Warrior can just take 3 epic feats to achieve the ability to manifest them, and this would represent the slight bit of extra study required for a martial-oriented character to achieve the metamorphosis, and preserve the original requirement for almost 40 character levels to begin the transformation. Even with the 9th level spell/power requirements, a wiz5/psi5/Cerebremancer4/Mind Mage10 (from Dragon Magazine #313) would have all the requirements met for either Dragon or Avangion metamorphosis at character level 24, whether PsyWar or Psion, have a higher chance of breaching the spell resistance of opponents than a straight-up wizard/psion of equivalent level), better saves, and would recieve double their intelligence bonus to set the DCs to resist their powers and spells. All this, along with the ability to basically pay power points to boost spells metamagically or lower them to a lesser slot (Yes, you can have a WISH SPELL occupy a level 1 slot for the meager cost of 72 power points), and use spell slots to do the same things to powers, and use telekinesis-type powers to deliver touch spells, would make it kinda unreasonable NOT to take this path towards Dragonhood, and so the 9th level power requirement would not really be an issue. I realize this post of mine is convoluted, but I had a a lot I wanted to say and no more coherent way to say it. PS-To the Overcouncil-You guys should ask Pazio if you can adopt the Mind Mage for the site. It's so perfect for Dark Sun! And, it could be adapted to use divine casting instead of arcane, and so could work for Advanced Being Elementals, as well!
#6 dawnstealer Feb 20, 2005 12:11:51	Your mention of Wish reminded me: "Dragon Magic," in my campaigns, is a special ability that dragons and avangions have when they are in contact with their obsidian ball. In addition to their spells and being-powers, they also get the following: Level Ability 1 Limited Wish 1/week 2 Limited Wish 1/week 3 Limited Wish 1/week 4 Limited Wish 2/week 5 Limited Wish 2/week 6 Limited Wish 3/week 7 Limited Wish 4/week 8 Limited Wish 5/week 9 Limited Wish 1/day 10 Wish 1/week This accounts for all the weird things Borys and the other dragons could do in the books. It may or may not work for your campaign and, like I said, this class was aimed at NPCs and not PCs.
#7 zombiegleemax Feb 20, 2005 13:12:45	The Dragon write-up is good stuff, Dawnstealer. I'm probably going to use it with minor modifications as an interim Dragon metsamorphosis until Athas.org finally releases the official one. I'm most likely going to make a rule for my game in which you must gain enough XP to advance 2 levels in order to gain a level of Dragon, in attempt to preserve ECL balance and such, but your write-up is basically what I was hoping for. My idea was to use the statistics for a either the Prismatic Dragon from the EpLvHBas the base, except for size, or the Fang Dragon from Monsters of Faerun,(Because the picture of the Dragon on Valley of Dust and Fire has disproportionately large claws and maw) which I would make Gargantuan be the final size, and reverse-engineer level-based ability adjustments from there. Waddya think about the Mind Mage and Cerebremancer being the best route to go as far as achieving the requirements for Dragonhood or Avangion Metamorphosis? Do you know of a more efficient path?
#8 dawnstealer Feb 20, 2005 13:52:46	As far as the dragon goes, my intention was to stick to the DS original, which had a full-grown Dragon of Tyr as more powerful than a Great Wyrm Golden Dragon. Using my final stats as a the Goldy, I just worked backwards to make the numbers work and stick with canon material. As far as the two mage classes you mentioned: I can't really comment. They sound very good, but I haven't had time to completely check them out. I tend to stick to the areas that my players show interest in and, so far, none of them have delved into mindmages or cerebremancers. Although I'm sure they will at some point.
#9 zombiegleemax Feb 20, 2005 13:55:59	I had originally thought of using the Gold as a baseline as well, but then I remembered the Prismatic, which is quite a bit more powerful, and decided to go from there. The Gold is the paragon standard of dragonkind, though, and is an excellent starting point. I'm basically just trying to develop a dragon that could throw down with and win against lesser deities, because my players all want to become Advanced Beings of varying natures, I have hopeful Dragons, Avangions and Elemental Clerics, and they eventually want to leave Athas, kick some divine tail, and establish themselves as a pantheon. Which, since I plan to let them use a modification of a certain undead SK's vortex-bogarting spell, shouldn't be hard. Start a religeon on Eberron, Greyhawk or Faerun, make people believe it by granting spells to priests, and then slay a god or two to steal divine ranks. You already have a worship base, so sustaining one's deityhood by having a cult or religeon of worshippers is already taken care of. If disaster strikes and you lose all your worshippers and possibly your divine ranks, move on to the next world and repeat the process. But , I digress......
#10 dawnstealer Feb 20, 2005 14:17:50	You also have to remember that Dragons (and avangions) have access to epic level spells and are both (at least) 20th level in both psion and wizard. That's quite a handful for anyone, minor dieties included. Of course, when dealing with dieties, it all comes down to home turf. I also gave the SKs (just the SKs) scrying ability on their own land. This was representative of thousands of years of walking their land, skimming people's thoughts, and so on. In essence, an SK would know when something "off" happened on their land.
#11 zombiegleemax Feb 20, 2005 14:30:56	I definetely agree about the epic spells being a potential thorn in a diety's side, especially since Advanced Beings would have access to a ton of them because of being psions AND wizards. That, coupled with psionic enchantments and Dragon or Avangion Magic (However that ends up being done) would indeed give them useful tools for god-slaying.Heh... Hamanu vs. Kord. Round one. Fight!!!!
#12 Pennarin Feb 20, 2005 15:33:43	Xlorep, I know you had problems concerning the epic seeds and other spell rules from the ELH, well I found that WotC created a new epic seed for one of its books, something I never thought they would do. Check out Lost Empires of Faerûn for the Mythal seed. If a new seed can be built for something as specific as mythal construction then perhaps the same can be done for merging psionics and magic on an epic level, and for the metamorphosises of course.
#13 zombiegleemax Feb 20, 2005 15:49:21	I've always hoped that Psionic Enchantments would allow the use of PP as a mitigating factor, preferably a special one that is done before such things as multiplying the DC due to permanency and such. And maybe letting Spellcraft and Psicraft ranks when trying to meet the spellcraft DCs to cast epic-level magic.