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Gnolls

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
true_blue
Feb 21, 2005 22:16:39 Just how frequent are Gnolls? I always assumed they didnt exist in Dragonlance, until I read the Silver Stair when it came out. I think it was mentioned they are from some random island. I think thats starting to become a big theme in Dragonlance, that almost everything comes from "some previous unknown place...".

Anyways, does anyone use gnolls in their campaign? I thought about adding a few tribes that have moved to the mainland and just trying to survive in the Desolation.

Mainly one of my players wants to play one and I'm trying to think of ways for this to happen. As I said, just wondering if anyone uses them and has ever seen any material about them in Dragonlance besides just the one novel The Silver Stair.
#2
cam_banks
Feb 21, 2005 22:53:36 There are gnoll tribes in the Desolation and also on the grasslands of Kern in the north. Their physical features vary slightly - the Desolation gnolls resemble jackal-headed humanoids, while those in the north are hyena-headed. Gnolls favor and respect strength and power, so they're perfect soldiers in service to a grim, dangerous and independent villain.

Cheers,
Cam
#3
true_blue
Feb 21, 2005 23:26:26 Cam, is there anywhere in any of the books that mentions the gnolls? About the only thing I found was in the KoD errata it had a gnoll hunting party as a random encounter. I don't own KoD, so I have no clue if any are in there. I looked through Age of Mortals, DLCS, and War of the Lance and didn't really see anything, but I could have easily missed something.

I realize if you say there are two tribes, than they exist and will probably be shown eventually in a future project. I just was wondering if there was any mention in a current source right now.

Thanks for the help though.. my brother will be a lot happier now since I'll probably go ahead and let him play as one. Man.. it'd be nice to have a Races of Ansalon book that maybe would tell more about lesser known races. The Races of Faerun book I thought was a good read. Mainly for the lesser known races more than the usual Elves, Humans, etc.
#4
zombiegleemax
Feb 22, 2005 0:40:32 I checked a few of my brothers old supplements and they had nothing on Gnolls (just the first two sourcebooks).

You didn't mention checking the Bestiary of Krynn, which I don't own, so I can't help with that...Sorry
#5
draggah
Feb 22, 2005 2:07:49 Gnolls are the reason the "Laughing Lands" are called that. I can't remember the page right now but they are mentioned in the War of The Lance book.

p.s.
If I'm not mistaken, the former Laughing Lands are now a part of The Desolation.
#6
cam_banks
Feb 22, 2005 5:58:17
Cam, is there anywhere in any of the books that mentions the gnolls?

In the novels, gnolls have been fairly absent, apart from the odd mention here and there or major characters like the one in Silver Stair. They didn't show up much in the original modules, either. But, there's mention of them in several game products now, including the SAGA Fifth Age core rulebook which describes them as roaming Ansalon in loose bands. The DL Dungeon Master's Screen links them to goblinoids, and they're (as I said) in the Age of Mortals campaign modules as potential encounters.

Cheers,
Cam
#7
zombiegleemax
Feb 22, 2005 6:59:05
Cam, is there anywhere in any of the books that mentions the gnolls? About the only thing I found was in the KoD errata it had a gnoll hunting party as a random encounter. I don't own KoD, so I have no clue if any are in there. I looked through Age of Mortals, DLCS, and War of the Lance and didn't really see anything, but I could have easily missed something.

The novel the Silver Stair has one (which you mentioned) and Defenders of Magic, Vol 3. The Seventh Sentinel (page 22) describes the gnolls from the Plains of Dust. They are like the ones from the north in that they have hyena features. Page 123 of the WotL mentions the gnolls again that live in Quindaras. Page 96 of WotL under the entries for Ripzh,Ssthik (and so on) it says that the sligs make war against the goblins and gnolls of the region. Hope that helps.
#8
true_blue
Feb 22, 2005 7:16:37 Yeah that actually helps a lot. As I said, one of my players wants to play one so I was trying to figure out just how common they would be. I didn't like the fact that they seemed to have come from some island in Silver Stair. This is a lot better that there are two tribes and an actual history of them being seen and actually used as guards and such.

Hopefully some of these races will be detailed in the future and have more... culture.. given to them. Thanks though, I appreciate it.
#9
zombiegleemax
Feb 22, 2005 8:26:41 I use gnolls quite a bit. They make for an excellent replacment for orcs. They're a bit tougher than orcs but that's alright my player's on average have above the norm stats.
#10
zombiegleemax
Feb 22, 2005 22:29:06 All of that said...

Gnolls are conspicuously absent from the Orders of Battle in DL11 and do not appear in the Master Encounter Tables in the Classic Campaign. That is my gold standard. Jean Rabe's novels, otoh, are not.

The purist in me says: Kobolds yes; Gnolls no.
#11
cam_banks
Feb 22, 2005 22:42:18
Gnolls are conspicuously absent from the Orders of Battle in DL11 and do not appear in the Master Encounter Tables in the Classic Campaign.

I'd be horrified if those sources were the only measure of a creature's existence in Dragonlance.

Cheers,
Cam
#12
talinthas
Feb 23, 2005 1:38:56 besides, everyone knows that the true gold standard is Lord Toade, which does indeed have gnolls in it.
#13
uziel.the.fallen
Feb 23, 2005 5:00:48 Indeed, I was just about to chime in with the fact that gnolls are featured prominently in 'Lord Toede'.

Also, other than all the sources mentioned already, there's an extensive write-up on gnolls in the Saga Bestiary also.

Gnolls exist on Krynn in my opinion, and have had quite a lot more coverage than many other races have.
#14
zombiegleemax
Feb 23, 2005 6:41:43
I'd be horrified if those sources were the only measure of a creature's existence in Dragonlance.

Cheers,
Cam

A creature? No. But a surface dwelling warlike race of humanoidish beings that one would reasonably expect, to normally have been organized enough to have participated in the War of the Lance - but is never mentioned?

That's a pretty conspicuous absence.

Be horrified if you like Cam - but their absence from those products is pretty strong evidence to an old dinosaur like me.

You can explain it otherwise, have their race small, divided, scattered, decentralized and inhabiting a region that really did not participate in the War of the Lance (and yes, the Plains of Dust could meet that test) - but you DO have to start doing some mental gymnastics to explain it.

Not a great deal turns on it - and yes - they are mentioned in some non-cannon novels. Mind you - there are a lot of things mentioned in some non-cannon novels that have no business being on the face of Krynn (or below it).
#15
cam_banks
Feb 23, 2005 7:37:02
Not a great deal turns on it - and yes - they are mentioned in some non-cannon novels. Mind you - there are a lot of things mentioned in some non-cannon novels that have no business being on the face of Krynn (or below it).

We're both old dinosaurs, Steel Wind - you knew that already! But there's no argument now about their inclusion even if they weren't in materials circa 1984-1989. They aren't the only core D&D creatures we've made an effort to include, and they weren't singled out in the past as creatures that simply don't exist. There are even some monsters that by rights should be included in the core D&D rules (or at least in the Bestiary) which aren't, such as the groaning spirit or any of the dozens of Fiend Folio and Monster Manual II creatures that populate the random encounter tables of the second and third books of the original modules (which at times look as if Tracy or Doug or Jeff said "hey, lots of cool new monsters!" and used them en masse). Dragonlance therefore has a rich tradition of actually making an effort to include a lot of things in it after the fact, or just because they're new and they're cool. I won't say this is always a good thing - I'm just a big a purist at times as you are.

Also, I really don't think calling books like the Silver Stair or the Defenders of Magic trilogy non-canon helps any (nor does using the word "cannon" instead) given that we draw so much from novels like them. It isn't as if they're, oh, I don't know, The Tales of Uncle Trapspringer.

Cheers,
Cam
#16
zombiegleemax
Feb 23, 2005 11:45:16 In regards to non-cannon, I had in mind wonderful gems of DragonLance literature like - oh - Riverwind the Plainsman and all those wonderful subterranean elves. [vomit]

But the more we talk about novels, the more I'll reach a point of departure with astonishing speed. I see DragonLance as a game setting upon which novels were based; not a game setting based on novels. It's a dog/tail wagging thing which governs one's entire approach to Krynn - and in respect of which I am decidedly in the paleolithic minority.
#17
ferratus
Feb 23, 2005 13:50:44 Well at least they weren't Drow. ;) Sometimes I wonder if many authors and game designers in the past had rankled against the few small "you can't have these in DL" and thus felt compelled to throw off their shackles. We have three different cases of the "no drow" rule being violated. Once through spelljamming, and twice with a "lost tribe" of elves who happen to live underground.

I disagree though with both Cam and Steel Wind that you remove the entirety of a source. Take "Wild Elves" for example, which features Spelljamming drow, a Spider-demon handmaiden Juhutli, and an extra-dimensional space.

I simply have the community of Kaganost in a secluded mountain valley, retro-fitted Juhutli as a demon princess (ala Judith in Lord Toede) and had a clan of demon worshipping elves. All I dumped was the spiders, the spelljamming and the drow, and the extradimensional space.

I kept the community that was being founded, the council that ruled over that community, the Stone of Habbakuk, and the events of the Kagonesti rebellion. Since that is all that remains of the adventure after it is completed (with the adventurers having slain the demon princess and the drow) that I have no problem being vague. I can simply say "evil elves" and "demon princess" which makes it canonical, yet still be consistent with those few that bother to go looking for a used copy of that adventure.

As the Daoists would say, take the path of least resistance. ;)
#18
Marcus_Majarra
Feb 24, 2005 1:15:22 Actually, gnolls do live on the mainland. At least, they did so in the Age of Despair. In eastern Ansalon, in the Goodlund Peninsula / Dairly Plains region is a large strip of land called the Laughing Lands. It's swarming with gnolls. The reference for this can be found in the War of the Lance sourcebook.

As for "breaking the rules," many authors did it, with Michael Williams at the helm. I also remember reading about a half-orc in Kendermore, but I could be mistaken. This happened a lot back in DL's beginnings, which is why I used to defer to my boxed set before I did novels.
#19
talinthas
Feb 24, 2005 1:23:07 I asked Mary Kirchoff about that half orc. Her response shocked and dismayed me, and out of respect for her, i'm not gonna repeat it. But man, i was annoyed for a while. still am.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 true_blue Feb 21, 2005 22:16:39	Just how frequent are Gnolls? I always assumed they didnt exist in Dragonlance, until I read the Silver Stair when it came out. I think it was mentioned they are from some random island. I think thats starting to become a big theme in Dragonlance, that almost everything comes from "some previous unknown place...". Anyways, does anyone use gnolls in their campaign? I thought about adding a few tribes that have moved to the mainland and just trying to survive in the Desolation. Mainly one of my players wants to play one and I'm trying to think of ways for this to happen. As I said, just wondering if anyone uses them and has ever seen any material about them in Dragonlance besides just the one novel The Silver Stair.
#2 cam_banks Feb 21, 2005 22:53:36	There are gnoll tribes in the Desolation and also on the grasslands of Kern in the north. Their physical features vary slightly - the Desolation gnolls resemble jackal-headed humanoids, while those in the north are hyena-headed. Gnolls favor and respect strength and power, so they're perfect soldiers in service to a grim, dangerous and independent villain. Cheers, Cam
#3 true_blue Feb 21, 2005 23:26:26	Cam, is there anywhere in any of the books that mentions the gnolls? About the only thing I found was in the KoD errata it had a gnoll hunting party as a random encounter. I don't own KoD, so I have no clue if any are in there. I looked through Age of Mortals, DLCS, and War of the Lance and didn't really see anything, but I could have easily missed something. I realize if you say there are two tribes, than they exist and will probably be shown eventually in a future project. I just was wondering if there was any mention in a current source right now. Thanks for the help though.. my brother will be a lot happier now since I'll probably go ahead and let him play as one. Man.. it'd be nice to have a Races of Ansalon book that maybe would tell more about lesser known races. The Races of Faerun book I thought was a good read. Mainly for the lesser known races more than the usual Elves, Humans, etc.
#4 zombiegleemax Feb 22, 2005 0:40:32	I checked a few of my brothers old supplements and they had nothing on Gnolls (just the first two sourcebooks). You didn't mention checking the Bestiary of Krynn, which I don't own, so I can't help with that...Sorry
#5 draggah Feb 22, 2005 2:07:49	Gnolls are the reason the "Laughing Lands" are called that. I can't remember the page right now but they are mentioned in the War of The Lance book. p.s. If I'm not mistaken, the former Laughing Lands are now a part of The Desolation.
#6 cam_banks Feb 22, 2005 5:58:17	Cam, is there anywhere in any of the books that mentions the gnolls? In the novels, gnolls have been fairly absent, apart from the odd mention here and there or major characters like the one in Silver Stair. They didn't show up much in the original modules, either. But, there's mention of them in several game products now, including the SAGA Fifth Age core rulebook which describes them as roaming Ansalon in loose bands. The DL Dungeon Master's Screen links them to goblinoids, and they're (as I said) in the Age of Mortals campaign modules as potential encounters. Cheers, Cam
#7 zombiegleemax Feb 22, 2005 6:59:05	Cam, is there anywhere in any of the books that mentions the gnolls? About the only thing I found was in the KoD errata it had a gnoll hunting party as a random encounter. I don't own KoD, so I have no clue if any are in there. I looked through Age of Mortals, DLCS, and War of the Lance and didn't really see anything, but I could have easily missed something. The novel the Silver Stair has one (which you mentioned) and Defenders of Magic, Vol 3. The Seventh Sentinel (page 22) describes the gnolls from the Plains of Dust. They are like the ones from the north in that they have hyena features. Page 123 of the WotL mentions the gnolls again that live in Quindaras. Page 96 of WotL under the entries for Ripzh,Ssthik (and so on) it says that the sligs make war against the goblins and gnolls of the region. Hope that helps.
#8 true_blue Feb 22, 2005 7:16:37	Yeah that actually helps a lot. As I said, one of my players wants to play one so I was trying to figure out just how common they would be. I didn't like the fact that they seemed to have come from some island in Silver Stair. This is a lot better that there are two tribes and an actual history of them being seen and actually used as guards and such. Hopefully some of these races will be detailed in the future and have more... culture.. given to them. Thanks though, I appreciate it.
#9 zombiegleemax Feb 22, 2005 8:26:41	I use gnolls quite a bit. They make for an excellent replacment for orcs. They're a bit tougher than orcs but that's alright my player's on average have above the norm stats.
#10 zombiegleemax Feb 22, 2005 22:29:06	All of that said... Gnolls are conspicuously absent from the Orders of Battle in DL11 and do not appear in the Master Encounter Tables in the Classic Campaign. That is my gold standard. Jean Rabe's novels, otoh, are not. The purist in me says: Kobolds yes; Gnolls no.
#11 cam_banks Feb 22, 2005 22:42:18	Gnolls are conspicuously absent from the Orders of Battle in DL11 and do not appear in the Master Encounter Tables in the Classic Campaign. I'd be horrified if those sources were the only measure of a creature's existence in Dragonlance. Cheers, Cam
#12 talinthas Feb 23, 2005 1:38:56	besides, everyone knows that the true gold standard is Lord Toade, which does indeed have gnolls in it.
#13 uziel.the.fallen Feb 23, 2005 5:00:48	Indeed, I was just about to chime in with the fact that gnolls are featured prominently in 'Lord Toede'. Also, other than all the sources mentioned already, there's an extensive write-up on gnolls in the Saga Bestiary also. Gnolls exist on Krynn in my opinion, and have had quite a lot more coverage than many other races have.
#14 zombiegleemax Feb 23, 2005 6:41:43	I'd be horrified if those sources were the only measure of a creature's existence in Dragonlance. Cheers, Cam A creature? No. But a surface dwelling warlike race of humanoidish beings that one would reasonably expect, to normally have been organized enough to have participated in the War of the Lance - but is never mentioned? That's a pretty conspicuous absence. Be horrified if you like Cam - but their absence from those products is pretty strong evidence to an old dinosaur like me. You can explain it otherwise, have their race small, divided, scattered, decentralized and inhabiting a region that really did not participate in the War of the Lance (and yes, the Plains of Dust could meet that test) - but you DO have to start doing some mental gymnastics to explain it. Not a great deal turns on it - and yes - they are mentioned in some non-cannon novels. Mind you - there are a lot of things mentioned in some non-cannon novels that have no business being on the face of Krynn (or below it).
#15 cam_banks Feb 23, 2005 7:37:02	Not a great deal turns on it - and yes - they are mentioned in some non-cannon novels. Mind you - there are a lot of things mentioned in some non-cannon novels that have no business being on the face of Krynn (or below it). We're both old dinosaurs, Steel Wind - you knew that already! But there's no argument now about their inclusion even if they weren't in materials circa 1984-1989. They aren't the only core D&D creatures we've made an effort to include, and they weren't singled out in the past as creatures that simply don't exist. There are even some monsters that by rights should be included in the core D&D rules (or at least in the Bestiary) which aren't, such as the groaning spirit or any of the dozens of Fiend Folio and Monster Manual II creatures that populate the random encounter tables of the second and third books of the original modules (which at times look as if Tracy or Doug or Jeff said "hey, lots of cool new monsters!" and used them en masse). Dragonlance therefore has a rich tradition of actually making an effort to include a lot of things in it after the fact, or just because they're new and they're cool. I won't say this is always a good thing - I'm just a big a purist at times as you are. Also, I really don't think calling books like the Silver Stair or the Defenders of Magic trilogy non-canon helps any (nor does using the word "cannon" instead) given that we draw so much from novels like them. It isn't as if they're, oh, I don't know, The Tales of Uncle Trapspringer. Cheers, Cam
#16 zombiegleemax Feb 23, 2005 11:45:16	In regards to non-cannon, I had in mind wonderful gems of DragonLance literature like - oh - Riverwind the Plainsman and all those wonderful subterranean elves. [vomit] But the more we talk about novels, the more I'll reach a point of departure with astonishing speed. I see DragonLance as a game setting upon which novels were based; not a game setting based on novels. It's a dog/tail wagging thing which governs one's entire approach to Krynn - and in respect of which I am decidedly in the paleolithic minority.
#17 ferratus Feb 23, 2005 13:50:44	Well at least they weren't Drow. ;) Sometimes I wonder if many authors and game designers in the past had rankled against the few small "you can't have these in DL" and thus felt compelled to throw off their shackles. We have three different cases of the "no drow" rule being violated. Once through spelljamming, and twice with a "lost tribe" of elves who happen to live underground. I disagree though with both Cam and Steel Wind that you remove the entirety of a source. Take "Wild Elves" for example, which features Spelljamming drow, a Spider-demon handmaiden Juhutli, and an extra-dimensional space. I simply have the community of Kaganost in a secluded mountain valley, retro-fitted Juhutli as a demon princess (ala Judith in Lord Toede) and had a clan of demon worshipping elves. All I dumped was the spiders, the spelljamming and the drow, and the extradimensional space. I kept the community that was being founded, the council that ruled over that community, the Stone of Habbakuk, and the events of the Kagonesti rebellion. Since that is all that remains of the adventure after it is completed (with the adventurers having slain the demon princess and the drow) that I have no problem being vague. I can simply say "evil elves" and "demon princess" which makes it canonical, yet still be consistent with those few that bother to go looking for a used copy of that adventure. As the Daoists would say, take the path of least resistance. ;)
#18 Marcus_Majarra Feb 24, 2005 1:15:22	Actually, gnolls do live on the mainland. At least, they did so in the Age of Despair. In eastern Ansalon, in the Goodlund Peninsula / Dairly Plains region is a large strip of land called the Laughing Lands. It's swarming with gnolls. The reference for this can be found in the War of the Lance sourcebook. As for "breaking the rules," many authors did it, with Michael Williams at the helm. I also remember reading about a half-orc in Kendermore, but I could be mistaken. This happened a lot back in DL's beginnings, which is why I used to defer to my boxed set before I did novels.
#19 talinthas Feb 24, 2005 1:23:07	I asked Mary Kirchoff about that half orc. Her response shocked and dismayed me, and out of respect for her, i'm not gonna repeat it. But man, i was annoyed for a while. still am.