11th
Eric: Did you and/or Tim ever sketch out the "Green Age" coastline of the sea that became the Sea of Silt? Or the lake that dried up and became the Ivory Plain?
Troy: Not beyond what are in the boxed set maps.
12th
Eric: Were there other "Champions" that Rajaat made which have not been "documented"?
Troy: Certainly. But even I don't know who.
Qwith and Gretch are never mentionned as champions or defiler warlords, just researchers working for Rajaat. SotDL has the stats for them and they're not dragons or champions.
On the other side of the silt sea in my campaign (the Sundered Regions) I had a being that was one of the Warbringer's first Champion creation "attempts" residing there. He was not as developed or successful as his other Champions.
For all instances and purposes Irikos is a champion (sources confirm that). The problem is that he has the same race has another official champion.
Thats still suspect IMO. However, DM's are free to play The Left Hand as they see fit.
It seems clear that there are (or were) other Champions, regardless; Quith, Gretch, and Irikos notwithstanding.
I'd also imagine there had to be some really nasty spies/assassins in the mix as well, percisely to keep the non-humans from teaming up or enacting that schorched earth policy on your turf or the turf you want to conquer.
Just an idea or two, may or may not be useful.
My point was not to dispute the current Champions, simply to state that Rajaat may have had other champions that had other goals than the annihilation of a particular species. Still haven't seen the stats for Qwith or Gretch, so I can't comment on them.
It seems clear that there are (or were) other Champions, regardless; Quith, Gretch, and Irikos notwithstanding.
The second box set states that Rajaat sent away all but his 15 prized students who later became champions.
I do agree that Rajaat had others working for him with their own tasks and goals. However I don't think they were Champions.
If you want to get into the boring details, I'd assume there'd have to be some "champion-level" guys in charge of the logestics of the wars.
That's more what I was thinking. The main bad guy I had on the other side of the Silt Sea was the guy who was making monsters for Rajaat's armies (things such as the Nightmare Beast, So-ut, maybe thrax, that kind of thing - engineered or life-bent weapons to be used against Rajaat's enemies). He was a dragon but was not, hang on:
I do agree that Rajaat had others working for him with their own tasks and goals. However I don't think they were Champions.
A Champion in the sense that he was not out fighting wars and directly killing off races. Back to the original quote, Troy said: "Certainly. But even I don't know who." Which seems to suggest that there are other champions than the 15 tasked with killing off intelligent races.
A Champion in the sense that he was not out fighting wars and directly killing off races. Back to the original quote, Troy said: "Certainly. But even I don't know who." Which seems to suggest that there are other champions than the 15 tasked with killing off intelligent races.
Lucas first envisioned that the character of Han Solo as a female. My point? Ideas get changed for one reason or another which is most certainly what happened with Troy's "other champions" comment. The world evolved beyond his original vision hence why there are now avangions and cleric elementals.
Back to your idea. As I said, I agree with you that Rajaat most certainly had other generals beyond Champions.
Here's an idea: To feed Rajaat's armies, he ensnared/enslaved/seduced a high level preserver/avagiaon (sp). (S)he is set up in a huge grove (maybe Ur-brax?) where food is magically produced at an astonishing rate...wheat planted in the morn is harvested at evening-sorta fast. This is one gigantic, food-producing plantation which supplies all of Rajaat's armies with a constant, reliable supply of food, and also works to his advantage for political purposes as well ("I'll give you dwarves food if you attack those pesky elven defenses..."). After the wars, perhaps the avagiaon disappears/is killed and the grove loses most of its magical properties.
That's more what I was thinking. The main bad guy I had on the other side of the Silt Sea was the guy who was making monsters for Rajaat's armies (things such as the Nightmare Beast, So-ut, maybe thrax, that kind of thing...
I like this idea. I did something similar by tying the origin of the Nightmare Beast with Kalid-Ma in the Tari Time Line/History I posted a few months ago.
Sysane: It's a controversial theory (or subject, or whatever) which is why I'm tossing it out on these boards. I'd hate to spend a year or so tossing the whole thing together only to find out that everyone thought it was the worst idea they had ever seen. Consider this the "testing the water" phase. It seems most people are open to other champions and seems that most expansions are dealing with one new champion or another (Dregoth in "City by the Silt Sea and Oronis and Daskinor in 2e). The precedent is there, the question is whether people want it or not.
Sysane: It's a controversial theory (or subject, or whatever) which is why I'm tossing it out on these boards. I'd hate to spend a year or so tossing the whole thing together only to find out that everyone thought it was the worst idea they had ever seen. Consider this the "testing the water" phase. It seems most people are open to other champions and seems that most expansions are dealing with one new champion or another (Dregoth in "City by the Silt Sea and Oronis and Daskinor in 2e). The precedent is there, the question is whether people want it or not.
I agree that the precedent is there to introduce new champions due to material like CbtSS and the 2e Revised Campaign Setting. However, wouldn't you rather go in a more original direction than "Hey look, another new champion we didn't know about"?
I'm not trying to bash your concept. I'm all for the development of the lands beyond the silt sea. I just feel that there should be newer ideas developed instead of revisiting old ones.
Nightdruid: I know what you were saying, I just bastardized it for my own purposes.
Heh, well a constant supply of monsters is a fun idea, but one question: if Rajaat is trying to "purge" the world of mutants (humans/demihumans/humanoids other than halflings/kreen), then why would he add *more* mutant monsters to the mix? Seems a little counter-productive, don'tcha think...;) (not saying there isn't a good explaination, just something to think about).
As far as contraversy, well, I think the best way around it is not to use the word "Champion". Use another word, heck they can be on par with Champions, but if you use a different word, fewer people would complain. I did something similiar with "wardens". Same difference, but nicely danced around the word. Just a thought. :D
As far as contraversy, well, I think the best way around it is not to use the word "Champion". Use another word, heck they can be on par with Champions, but if you use a different word, fewer people would complain. I did something similiar with "wardens". Same difference, but nicely danced around the word. Just a thought. :D
Exactly. Rajaat no doubt had other powerful agents (*cough*Irikos*cough*) other than the 15 Champions.
However, wouldn't you rather go in a more original direction than "Hey look, another new champion we didn't know about"?
The end result will be more original than that, trust me, but I needed to have some precedent for there being a reason for more champions and/or dragon(kings?)s. It seems like there is one, so I'll start fleshing out the ideas a bit more and see if they sound right.
The real trick, one I've already answered in my outline for the project, is: why have we not seen them before and what was Borys' take on them? With Oronis and Daskinor, it was pretty simple: Oronis was an Avangion and Daskinor was freakin' crazy. A plausible explanation is needed more than a simple "LOOOOK!" I'm planning for that and will start busting out a bit more on the boards once I finish off the monster drawings and Athasian Manual of the Planes.
Heh, well a constant supply of monsters is a fun idea, but one question: if Rajaat is trying to "purge" the world of mutants (humans/demihumans/humanoids other than halflings/kreen), then why would he add *more* mutant monsters to the mix?
My take was this: Rajaat planned on returning Athas to the Blue Age. How long do you think a Nightmare Beast could tread water?
Use another word, heck they can be on par with Champions, but if you use a different word, fewer people would complain.
[edit: forgot to answer this one] Agreed, I think the word "Champion" should be reserved for those who were actually out in the front fighting the wars for Rajaat, no matter how powerful they are. So Irikos would be a Champion, but Qwith (or whoever) would not be because they weren't actually fighting in the war (at least, not directly).
The real trick, one I've already answered in my outline for the project, is: why have we not seen them before and what was Borys' take on them?
Lets see:
a) could always go the "imprisoned" route. One or two might have been put in a magic prison and Borys figured them dead or out of the way.
b) some might be outside the Tyr region but still have a similiar deal with Borys as the SKs.
c) They might not have an interest in building petty fiefs like the SKs, maybe instead wandering or being hermits.
d) their power has waned, and now they're mere shadows of their former selves. Either wasted away or in a helpless yet immortal animal form.
e) They could be undead (aka lich/demilich).
f) No longer in a humanoid form; maybe now a golem, intelligent weapon, or another creature.
g) Undergound kingdom, maybe one of fire & lava.
My take was this: Rajaat planned on returning Athas to the Blue Age. How long do you think a Nightmare Beast could tread water?
Same arguement could be made for the humans & rest...I thought the whole point of the wars was that the only way to return Athas to the Blue Age was to kill off all of the mutants. Could be wrong on that point
The end result will be more original than that, trust me, but I needed to have some precedent for there being a reason for more champions and/or dragon(kings?)s. It seems like there is one, so I'll start fleshing out the ideas a bit more and see if they sound right.
Thats going to be a tough sell IMO. I'd first try to develope the other side of the silt sea with some original concepts that don't directly tie to anything in the Tyr region or Rajaat (i.e. Peoples, places, monsters, cities, etc...). After which, I'd sprinkle some tid bits that tie the Warbringer and the Cleansing War to the area.
d) their power has waned, and now they're mere shadows of their former selves. Either wasted away or in a helpless yet immortal animal form.
Thats how I envisioned the "proto-champion" that I stated Rajaat may have made. Being one of his first attempts at creating a champion he was flawed and more beastial.
In Dragon's Crown, Hamanu has sent Merek the Wrong, a defiler warlord, to destroy the wizards of Akarakle.
The way I see him is that he's a defiler warlord (wizard [defiler]/fighter), he's not a dragon or have the champion of Rajaat template, so he's pretty inferior to champions, why he's subserviant to Hamanu.
Him and boys and girls just like him could have helped do the stuff that didn't require, or wasn't appropriate for, a champion tasked with eradicating a race...such as destroying the wizards of Akarakle.
i understand the solemnity of canon...but the core canon of the game we all know and love was always to have fun...at all costs! if the world needs some more ultra-powerful nut cases running around, then so be it!
i understand the solemnity of canon...but the core canon of the game we all know and love was always to have fun...at all costs! if the world needs some more ultra-powerful nut cases running around, then so be it!
Which could be someone or something other than another Champion or a subordinte of Rajaat.
Not threading on Sysane's proto-champion idea
God forbid. :P
Its better left alone. Its a flawless idea anyhow ;)
He withdrew from the fertile Tyr region when Borys and co overthrew Rajaat, not wishing to throw his immense weight to either side, and not particularly caring about the outcome. A few of the others who respected his immense power bolted with him while the getting was good. Borys would later make inroads into his lands, but was pushed out, but not before destroying a few cities and laying waste to much of the inland areas.
As a result, the far side of the Silt Sea is a very dangerous place to be. There are exceedingly dangerous creatures on the coast, in the mountain passes and in the badlands beyond. Once reaching the semifertile lands past the badlands, one must find a way past masses of undead that are present thanks to Borys' intrusion. The four cities beyond are pale shadows of their former glory, but survive thanks to the power of the local head dragon (they think). The locals built a palace around him since he was too large to move and many slaves are sacrificed to him each day (someone's got to feed blubber-butt, after all). Since his mouth is roughtly the size of a ballroom, this is not hard to do.
He is so bloated that he cannot move, he is imprisoned in his palace, but can still project his will beyond. This is one of the main reasons that the Tablelands have been safe from him: he cannot move from his kingdom or even his palace. The local three dragons huddle around him for protection from Borys, who they are now learning is dead. Even so, they are no match for their Tableland cousins, so it's unlikely they will spread much beyond their borders. Outsiders may make inroads to this area, however, which is the way I intend to get around the whole: why have we not seen them before? question. That's just the bare basics - the outline is much more detailed, but I'm still fleshing it out.
2) Champions other than the "Big 13." This one's near and dear to me as I plan on introducing a few more in "The Other Side of the Silt Sea." My plan was to make them Champions, but not champions responsible for Genocide. For example, some might be like Irikos (original owner of the Silencer of Bodach and Rajaat's "left hand"), Qwith (the dude who was researching the Inner Planes), and so on. In short, it seems there were a few champions not listed in the orginal 13, seeming to leave the door open for more (within reason, of course). Thoughts on this idea?
No, this doesn't have to mean that there were more then the big 13. Don't forget that the Big 13 were created to destroy one race per champ, well Troy knows that there were more killed, Myron for example, a champion true but none of the last 13. I asked him once how many there are and the answer is 13. It's most likely he wasn't quite aware about the new stuff published, because he would have never accepted Oronis for example ;). But anyway, you also could understand his answer that way
12th
Eric: Were there other "Champions" that Rajaat made which have not been "documented"?
Troy: Certainly. But even I don't know who
There are more champions which weren't documented, but the only champions he sees as documented are those documented by him, in WJ and PP. Anyway, I'm pretty sure the original number was 13 but it doesn't matter, if people like more they can do as they wish, this makes the DS worlds unique
.The reason I don't want more champions runnig around is simple, it would ruin the unique status of the existing champions if they would have been that common.
My two cb
none of these guys are the race-ending Champions of Rajaat, although they did serve him in other ways (no, not that way, you sicko). This is why they rode the fence when Borys and co revolted.
Heh, well, here's some ideas to chuck your way:
* One might have been a "weapons researcher/crafter". Heck, nickname him "the Dread Smith" or "the Doomcrafter" or somesuch thing. During the revolt, he had no bone to pick either way (his specialty was crafting weapons). His might even have been making many artifacts now all over athas. For a twist, maybe he either created the obsidean man, or heck, maybe he *is* the obsidean man.
* One might have been the concubine of Rajaat &/or Borys (hehe, so I'm a sicko...;) who is now some sort of "siren"-like creature. Maybe you could use the gorgon/medusa myth here as well. A city with a powerful gorgon who has turned everyone to stone, and is served by lesser gorgons.
* One of Rajaat's "gophers" (igor-type henchman) who made good during the revolt. Maybe during the confusion, he grew a backbone & stole some potent magic that made him powerful, or got caught up in the maelstrom of magic and was partially transformed. He's now pretty tough, but like any bully, stand up to him with some force, and he whimpers and backs down.
Qwith (the dude who was researching the Inner Planes)
Actually, Qwith is a "dudette".
He is so bloated that he cannot move, he is imprisoned in his palace, but can still project his will beyond.
Similar to the proto-champion I had IMC. He wasn't bloated, but in more of a catatonic state. He's hidden/imprisoned beneath the a palace where his head templar posses as king (a high level templar/psion). The "king" claims that he grants his "rectors" their powers where its really the drooling proto-champion thats granting them spells on a subconscious level.
I should post the notes I had on the Sundered Regions. I also had a hand drawn color map (which came out pretty good if I do say so myself). I'll scan that soon and post it here if people would like.
* One might have been the concubine of Rajaat &/or Borys (hehe, so I'm a sicko...;) who is now some sort of "siren"-like creature. Maybe you could use the gorgon/medusa myth here as well. A city with a powerful gorgon who has turned everyone to stone, and is served by lesser gorgons.
Sounds to much like "Birth Right" IMO. I like the concubine idea though. A long lost love of Rajaat would be a cool twist. Perhaps another pyreen?
Sounds to much like "Birth Right" IMO. I like the concubine idea though. A long lost love of Rajaat would be a cool twist. Perhaps another pyreen?
Heh, well, I will admit that the Gorgon from BR crossed my mind.
I too thought a long lost love of Rajaat would be cool, probably a pyreen as well.Edit: just had an idea, don't know if anyone would like it, but howabout this: the lost love of Rajaat is a pyreen with something almost nothing else on Athas has: pure innocence. A being of beauty and innocence, who loved Rajaat for his good intentions, but knew nothing of the extremes he went to for his intentions. Of course, she's protected by fanatical guards who will do anything to protect her and keep her sequestered from the "real world". Just a thought
Heh, well, I will admit that the Gorgon from BR crossed my mind.
Edit: just had an idea, don't know if anyone would like it, but howabout this: the lost love of Rajaat is a pyreen with something almost nothing else on Athas has: pure innocence. A being of beauty and innocence, who loved Rajaat for his good intentions, but knew nothing of the extremes he went to for his intentions. Of course, she's protected by fanatical guards who will do anything to protect her and keep her sequestered from the "real world". Just a thought
Thats a really good concept. A being that would or could off set Rajaat's corruptness. She would be the total opposite Warbringer.
:P
If such a being existed, I hope Rikus would kill her! Too flowery for Dark Sun in my opinion.
:P
I'm sure a tragic spin could be tagged to it in some way for you sadists. ;)
He wasn't bloated, but in more of a catatonic state.
Actually, this guy is very much alive and awake. He's also very aware of his current trapped state and his inability to change it. This makes him fairly grumpy. And when I say "bloated," I don't mean he has a little tummy, I mean they quite literally built a palace around him; he's absolutely huge, with tiny little arms poking out. I'll really have to post the pic sometime (actually, consider it done. Those tiny lines in front of him are guards carrying spears).
I like the gorgon idea. A lot. I might have to change up some of the ideas I was working on to make it fit (I love conceptual stages). Maybe that was the curse Borys wrought on one of the first cities? I'll have to work on that and "Athas it up" a bit, especially if it was used in Birthright (which I haven't played).
If such a being existed, I hope Rikus would kill her! Too flowery for Dark Sun in my opinion.
I tend to agree with that assesment.
Those tiny lines in front of him are guards carrying spears).
Neat picture. Needs a line of slaves being led to their doom :D
I like the gorgon idea. A lot. I might have to change up some of the ideas I was working on to make it fit (I love conceptual stages). Maybe that was the curse Borys wrought on one of the first cities? I'll have to work on that and "Athas it up" a bit, especially if it was used in Birthright (which I haven't played).
Have at it. Glad to helpI tend to agree with that assesment.
Heh, I'm surprised anyone actually liked it, at least for Athas. Either way works for me
Heh, I'm surprised anyone actually liked it, at least for Athas. Either way works for me
It's all right: Sysane's weird and smells like feet. :P
It's actually a pretty good idea, but I think mmacgregor's correct in his assesment that anything to offset Rajaat's corruption would devalue just how corrupt he was. On that note, didn't Rajaat ever learn the Polymorph Self spell and Permanency? Weird guy.
Heh, I'm surprised anyone actually liked it, at least for Athas. Either way works for me
I think the concept captures some of the elements of DS that people tend not to focus on. Those being hope and change. DS isn't always about brutality and desperation. If you looking to play a campaign of constant despair I suggest Ravenloft. However, even that setting has its light moments.
It's all right: Sysane's weird and smells like feet. :P
The chics seem to dig it.
Or, the champions could've gone even further out. Some could have landed themselves in Arborea or Mount Celestia, and been touched by the light and reformed, becoming Avangions like Oronis , or maybe becoming entirely new entities, like a Preserver Dragon. Some could have ended up in the Lower Planes and became even more fiendish and powerful, experimenting with new spells and powers and maybe even becoming Defiler Avangions.
Take all this, shake it in a bag, and dump on Athas when these entities decide to go home to pursue their multiple agendas.
And don't even get me started about the Zik'Chil/Rajaat alliance!!! :P
It's all right: Sysane's weird and smells like feet. :P
It's actually a pretty good idea, but I think mmacgregor's correct in his assesment that anything to offset Rajaat's corruption would devalue just how corrupt he was. On that note, didn't Rajaat ever learn the Polymorph Self spell and Permanency? Weird guy.
Heh, poor Sysane!
Well, I'm not sure about devaluing Rajaat's corruption, but I could say that the idea would "humanize" Rajaat more than anything. Whether or not thats a good idea, I really don't know.
I think the concept captures some of the elements of DS that people tend not to focus on. Those being hope and change. DS isn't always about brutality and desperation. If you looking to play a campaign of constant despair I suggest Ravenloft. However, even that setting has its light moments.
True enough, and one reason I posted it. I'm not the DS expert to say if it fits DS or not, but I figured every setting needed a little glimmer of hope every now and again...some of these settings today are so dark and depressing that if I were playing in them, the first thing I'd do with my character would be a fireball to the face and end the misery before it begins...;)
Right. Switching drugs.
some of these settings today are so dark and depressing that if I were playing in them, the first thing I'd do with my character would be a fireball to the face and end the misery before it begins
Valid. Okay, I'll dwell on it a bit, but don't you think someone that important to Rajaat would be first on the chopping block of the Champs? I like the idea, I'm just not sure how to make it work. Certainly anyone that was that close to Rajaat would definitely have been working to free him all these years, but these guys are content to simply dwell in their kingdoms and not interfere with the Tyr region (yet).
They left Athas and came back!
Not bad, but I'm going to try to stay away from that (leave it to the Rhulisti trio, maybe). Your bit about the elements is a bit closer to what I was thinking. One of those planar researchers of Rajaat's might have continued their researches to the point where they became a significant pawn of a Paraelemental Lord, maybe became an Elemental themselves. This would be quite a shift from the Dragon Kings; instead, it would be an "Elemental King." Or queen. Guess I should toss a few more of those out there.
Well, I'm not sure about devaluing Rajaat's corruption, but I could say that the idea would "humanize" Rajaat more than anything. Whether or not thats a good idea, I really don't know.
Exactly. Whats more tragic than a being falling from grace. Look at Micheal Jackson :P Its not like Rajaat came out of the womb being pure evil.
Valid. Okay, I'll dwell on it a bit, but don't you think someone that important to Rajaat would be first on the chopping block of the Champs? I like the idea, I'm just not sure how to make it work. Certainly anyone that was that close to Rajaat would definitely have been working to free him all these years...
Could be that Rajaat locked her away somewhere to protect her from the horrors of the Cleansing War. He may have planned to release her afterward but couldn't due to his Champions betrayal. She's either in a suspended animation sort of state or has gone insane from centuries of solitude.
What do you think?
On that note, didn't Rajaat ever learn the Polymorph Self spell and Permanency? Weird guy.
It seems like Polymorph was completely overlooked by everyone on Athas, except psionicists . The only person I can recall using any true shape-shifting spells, not just illusions, was Tithian when he had the dark lens,and I believe the effect was psionic in nature. Could it also be supposed that Dragons and Avangions are subject to Archetypal Shape like the Sharns in Monsters of Faerun, where they are comletely incapable of truly shapeshifting due to some inherent quality, but must make do with illusions? Perhaps Rajaat suffered this effect as well, because Pyreen are shapeshifters by nature, and he got especially bitter because not only was he born ugly, he was stuck that way?Maybe the only way he could alter his form was once his physical body was destroyed, thus allowing him to become the giant stormy skeleton in the Cerulean Storm novel?
It seems like Polymorph was completely overlooked by everyone on Athas, except psionicists . The only person I can recall using any true shape-shifting spells, not just illusions, was Tithian when he had the dark lens,and I believe the effect was psionic in nature. Could it also be supposed that Dragons and Avangions are subject to Archetypal Shape like the Sharns in Monsters of Faerun, where they are comletely incapable of truly shapeshifting due to some inherent quality, but must make do with illusions?
Dregoth uses both polymorph and illusions spells. I think the rest of the SK do as well.
Perhaps Rajaat suffered this effect as well, because Pyreen are shapeshifters by nature, and he got especially bitter because not only was he born ugly
Maybe just the fact that his "true form" is that of a deformed little freak was to much to bare mentaly.
Anyways, to clear a few things up.
Tyr being near the Southern Pole is canon as stated per SotDL (Secrets of the Deadlands).
Also, Qwith is a dudette, not a dude. Gretch is a dude.
I'm not going to read through this entire thread, mainly cause I'm sick of the topic and already decided what I'm going to do.
Its all good. Here, have a cookie
. Cookies make everything better. 
, eat this , and get some sleep 
have a nice cup of coffee :whatsthis when you wake up, and the flu symptoms will be gone, and so will the crabiness . Being snide and bellicose is my thing, and I don't like to share that duty! :evillaughHeh, well a constant supply of monsters is a fun idea, but one question: if Rajaat is trying to "purge" the world of mutants (humans/demihumans/humanoids other than halflings/kreen), then why would he add *more* mutant monsters to the mix? Seems a little counter-productive, don'tcha think...;) (not saying there isn't a good explaination, just something to think about).
I think a logical answer to that is, that some kind of "kill switch" was built in these monsters, i.e. there is some secret method which stops/kills them instantly. Something which is not hard on the resource side, but normally it wouldn't be used for that. Combinations come to my mind. Like: a Nightmare Beast instantly dies, if it gets sprinkled with water mixed with grain, and then subject to a Fireball spell and the Ego Whip power within the next round. Not high level spells, powers or rare materials, but insane combos which can't happen during normal circumstances.
And if somehow the players figuring this out (typically founding the info in a ruin), they can strat to think about these beast getting engineered, further investigations can lead to the other side of the Silt Sea, and to the creator... Here is the campaign arc...
Btw this blob-guy could be made Cthulhu like. Not in look (altough it's cool) but in the style and feeling. Normally it wouldn't fit for Athas, but going to the other side of the Silt Sea is a real trip to the unknown for both characters and players, so supense elements can be easily used. Just an idea tough...
Nyt - read through it! You're sick, what else have you got to do but read through all our brilliant deductions. Besides, this one focuses more on a future project of mine than the subject title suggests.
Also, Qwith is a dudette, not a dude. Gretch is a dude.
Dude, dudette. Whatever: I call everyone "dudes." Chicks dig it. Besides, haven't had the opportunity to read through Secrets of the Deadlands, yet. If it's canon, it's canon. Good enough for me: I won't have to redraw any of my maps. :D
Cthulu elements? Hadn't thought of that, but it's good! I don't think I'd go straight for the horror element like that (as the others were saying: better left to Ravenloft - Athas' style is more aimed at survival than horror). I'll dwell on that, too.
I dunno, I would like to see more Cthulu elements in something like the Black, but certainly not anywhere else.
Nyt - read through it! You're sick, what else have you got to do but read through all our brilliant deductions.
Nah, I'm getting better after eating some of Robin's minstrels.
I'm still sick in the head though if that is what you mean. :D
Besides, this one focuses more on a future project of mine than the subject title suggests.
Ok, ok, I read through like the first 5 posts and it felt like the same ol blather to me, but I'll give it another chance.
Dude, dudette. Whatever: I call everyone "dudes."
Ok, you were using it more as a neutral adjective, gotcha, it's all good in the hood.
Chicks dig it.
Not sure I would like going after a chick that liked to be called "dude" though, way too many bad mental images start sprining to mind...
Besides, haven't had the opportunity to read through Secrets of the Deadlands, yet. If it's canon, it's canon. Good enough for me: I won't have to redraw any of my maps. :D
It's good stuff, and very canon. Just wish the maps would have been better, ah well, more for us to freshen up.
I'm not going to read through this entire thread, mainly cause I'm sick of the topic and already decided what I'm going to do.
Heh, well you can blame me and my off-the-wall ideas for about 1/2 of the thread. :P
Nah, I'm getting better after eating some of Robin's minstrels.
And there was much rejoicing.
Cthulu in the Black? That's very intriguing. That might even have to make an appearance in the Athasian Manual of the Planes.
Heh, well, here's some ideas to chuck your way:
* One might have been a "weapons researcher/crafter". Heck, nickname him "the Dread Smith" or "the Doomcrafter" or somesuch thing. During the revolt, he had no bone to pick either way (his specialty was crafting weapons). His might even have been making many artifacts now all over athas. For a twist, maybe he either created the obsidean man, or heck, maybe he *is* the obsidean man.
Hmmm, been looking for something cool to pin on the Obsidian Man. That might just do it, or something similar.
* One might have been the concubine of Rajaat &/or Borys (hehe, so I'm a sicko...;) who is now some sort of "siren"-like creature. Maybe you could use the gorgon/medusa myth here as well. A city with a powerful gorgon who has turned everyone to stone, and is served by lesser gorgons.
Now you're just being sick, on the Rajaat side of things anyways, can't see him having a concubine, mainly cause he's just too weird looking, plus I can't see that as part of his character, better things to do, etc.
I do like the gorgon idea though, always been a fan of gargoyles and medusae and always wanted to intigrate them somehow into Athas, with the usual Athasian twist of course.
* One of Rajaat's "gophers" (igor-type henchman) who made good during the revolt. Maybe during the confusion, he grew a backbone & stole some potent magic that made him powerful, or got caught up in the maelstrom of magic and was partially transformed. He's now pretty tough, but like any bully, stand up to him with some force, and he whimpers and backs down.
I like this idea too.
Edit: just had an idea, don't know if anyone would like it, but howabout this: the lost love of Rajaat is a pyreen with something almost nothing else on Athas has: pure innocence. A being of beauty and innocence, who loved Rajaat for his good intentions, but knew nothing of the extremes he went to for his intentions. Of course, she's protected by fanatical guards who will do anything to protect her and keep her sequestered from the "real world". Just a thought
Oh god no!
The whole Beauty and the Beast and the Phantom of the Opera thing has been done to death man.
Ugh....
Not that I hate that sort of thing (esp since I just got done watching Phantom of the Opera last weekend), just been done to death is all.
Heh, well you can blame me and my off-the-wall ideas for about 1/2 of the thread. :P
Nah, I actually liked some of your off the wall ideas.
I figured this was a unique twist to the Tyr region's silt skimmers. Feel free to incorporate that if you would like.
Nah, I actually liked some of your off the wall ideas.
Heh, well, like I said, I wasn't sure if some of them fit DS (the concubine idea, for example), but I figured some brainstorming couldn't hurt
Heh, well, like I said, I wasn't sure if some of them fit DS (the concubine idea, for example), but I figured some brainstorming couldn't hurt
I like the idea for Borys, just about all the champions have done this at some or other, but I just can't see it for Rajaat.
Now if it was something making calf eyes at him (yes I'm reading Wheel of Time series currently, hush!) and he just totally ignore it that would be one thing, but I just can't see him bothering with it, esp since he hates himself so much, not much room there to have affections for someone else, on a totally psychological level anyways.
I'm trying to come up with original ideas on why they are over there, what their plans are, etc., and want to stay away from anything that has remotely to do with Rajaat since that has been done to death IMO.
But keep on keeping on, maybe what you guys talk about will spark some neurons over here and I'll get an idea or three.
stay away from anything that has remotely to do with Rajaat since that has been done to death IMO.
Agreed, that's why I want these guys to be different from the typical: "I murdered an entire race, pity me or fear me: your choice." Plus, big bad dragon of the East (hereby known as BBDE, given our tendency towards acronyms) did not have worries of keeping Rajaat imprisoned. If Borys wasn't constantly wandering Athas in his neverending pursuit to keep his mentor imprisoned, what would he have accomplished? BBDE might answer that in a sedentary sort of way.
I was actually planning on keeping the coastline free of civilization. At one time, it was covered with cities, but it's now overrun by silt-offshoots of elephant seals and similar creatures. Still in the development stage, but I'm pretty sure I want the coastline free of cities - I just figure Borys wouldn't have tolerated it.
Just make it so there isn't any water there, or at least not enough to support anything past the hamlet (> 100 villagers) level. No water, no food means no civilization. You could probably get by with some tiny villages that are generally too small to noticed by anyone.
Hmmm. What if the big bad "dragon of the East" had a former love of Borys' trapped in some sort of stasis thing ("Who is that?" "Someone who loves you..." "Leia!"). Could explain why he was rebuffed when he attacked.
"I've got a bad feeling about this."
Actually, I like that idea better.
And it might be good to keep her in stasis, or once she does get free she might try to follow the path Borys did, though she would have to kick Dregoth's arse first, and I can't see that happening.
Agreed, that's why I want these guys to be different from the typical: "I murdered an entire race, pity me or fear me: your choice." Plus, big bad dragon of the East (hereby known as BBDE, given our tendency towards acronyms) did not have worries of keeping Rajaat imprisoned. If Borys wasn't constantly wandering Athas in his neverending pursuit to keep his mentor imprisoned, what would he have accomplished? BBDE might answer that in a sedentary sort of way.
Ok, let me rephrase.
I want no connections to Rajaat whatsoever. BBDE still does despite how small.
Hmmm. What if the big bad "dragon of the East" had a former love of Borys' trapped in some sort of stasis thing ("Who is that?" "Someone who loves you..." "Leia!"). Could explain why he was rebuffed when he attacked.
Heh, sounds like a pretty nice way of making it work. Borys, at least from what little I've read, seemed to be the brooding type, and that might play into his brooding nature
I want no connections to Rajaat whatsoever. BBDE still does despite how small.
Unfortunately, there's no way around that. Pretty much anyone who's in power at this time on Athas had something to do with Rajaat. The guy practically killed the entire world: his effect was pretty profound. Anyone who's magical and of any skill level to be considered a threat would had to have had some connection to the first sorcerer.
I'll put it this way, BBDE's connection to Rajaat will be one that was more convenient than tied up with him. Basically, studying with Rajaat enabled him to reach levels of power that otherwise would have been impossible.
Still working on that one within my insane membrane though.
Heh, sounds like a pretty nice way of making it work. Borys, at least from what little I've read, seemed to be the brooding type, and that might play into his brooding nature
Here's an idea: what if this chick were somehow a window to Borys, now that he's trapped in the Black or the Hollow or wherever? What if, through her, he could escape? Would certainly give the people of Ur Draxa and beyond a reason to search her out, thus leading folks to the Far Off Lands of Eastern Athas. Eh? Eh?
Unfortunately, there's no way around that. Pretty much anyone who's in power at this time on Athas had something to do with Rajaat. The guy practically killed the entire world: his effect was pretty profound. Anyone who's magical and of any skill level to be considered a threat would had to have had some connection to the first sorcerer.
Not neccessarily.
Plenty of new powers you could have out there. Don't have to have countless old powers out there that are connected to Rajaat in whichever way you can come up with.
Yuan-ti would be a simple one, a race spawned by the Pristine Tower that use to be one of the other races, like the Tulk, etc. Sure that's not original, plenty of that out there, but not having the power the runs their realm being connected to Rajaat in some way would be.
I dunno, just trying to come up with new things to settle the rest of the world and trying to be original too, and I think it's going to be a more difficult task than I think.
I'm trying to come up with original ideas on why they are over there, what their plans are, etc., and want to stay away from anything that has remotely to do with Rajaat since that has been done to death IMO.
Exactly how I feel. I actually voiced that at the begining of the thread.
A few races I had were Half-giant and B'rhog communities which spawned half-giant/B'rhog half breeds, and a "new" race called Darkwyns. They basicly were mutated a race which were the decendants ancient gnomes. These ancient gnomes are survivors of the Cleasning War who changed their genetic make-up (how remains to be seen) in order to elude Gillard. They hide their features with layers of facial wraps in order to keep their secret. Non-darkwyn beings that see their face are marked for death by all darkwyn.
I've actually been wanting to add in a Fae race of sorts too.
Still working on that one within my insane membrane though.
How about glooms? (? Its the underdark pixie-type critter, if I got the name wrong). Maybe smoke or magma-type fae? Or maybe something like undead pixies that became something like will-o-wisps?
Oh, I'll throw out the geography I was working on. Basically, you'd have a relatively narrow strip of coastline, immediate mountains, then a large range of foothills and badlands, a deserted area (not to be confused with the much tastier "desserted area") where Borys had his big intrusion (undead and nasty things abound), and then the inner realms of the BBDE and his minions. I was thinking the Yuan-ti would be a good fit for the badlands and foothills. I was also a big fan of the tlincalli (scorpian men), so might find a place for them out here, too.
Here's an idea: what if this chick were somehow a window to Borys, now that he's trapped in the Black or the Hollow or wherever? What if, through her, he could escape? Would certainly give the people of Ur Draxa and beyond a reason to search her out, thus leading folks to the Far Off Lands of Eastern Athas. Eh? Eh?
Actually, when the discussion was on Rajaat, I had a very similiar thought...
It would be...interesting...to see ole Borys back in action...
and a "new" race called Darkwyns. They basicly were mutated a race which were the decendants ancient gnomes. These ancient gnomes are survivors of the Cleasning War who changed their genetic make-up (how remains to be seen) in order to elude Gillard. They hide their features with layers of facial wraps in order to keep their secret. Non-darkwyn beings that see their face are mark for death by all darkwyn.
I kinda like that.
A few races I had were Half-giant and B'rhog communities which spawned half-giant/B'rhog half breeds, and a "new" race called Darkwyns.
Or dwelfs?
How about glooms? (? Its the underdark pixie-type critter, if I got the name wrong). Maybe smoke or magma-type fae? Or maybe something like undead pixies that became something like will-o-wisps?
I was going to try to stay away from the conventional "pixie" view. I figure that would be something that was more a derogatory term that didn't really fit. I planned on making them second only to Pyreen in natural abilities. They were more aggressive however and tended more towards Chaos than Good.
Actually, when the discussion was on Rajaat, I had a very similiar thought...
Don't be surprised: great minds think alike and I'm, like, totally 1337 and brilant. I kind of like Darkwyns, too: they'd be a great fit for the mountains.
Or dwelfs?
I was going to try to stay away from the conventional "pixie" view. I figure that would be something that was more a derogatory term that didn't really fit. I planned on making them second only to Pyreen in natural abilities. They were more aggressive however and tended more towards Chaos than Good.
Well, fey, to their mythical roots, are spirits of the land. So actually, dwelfs wouldn't be out of the question, given that in some myths, elves & dwarves are pretty much the same thing
But I digress. If we go with Fey as spirits of nature, then the brutal nature of athas' wilderness would reflect back in them. Perhaps instead of pixies, they might be more dragon- or insect- like, strangely twisted and "weird" in appearance. Might even make them unfriendly & very carnivorous. If you want a more "human" approach, they might be somewhat taller than halflings and be very feral, often mistaken for halflings, but able to summon powerful druidic abilities.How about glooms? (? Its the underdark pixie-type critter, if I got the name wrong). Maybe smoke or magma-type fae? Or maybe something like undead pixies that became something like will-o-wisps?
I was thinking on terms close to that.
Didn't know about the glooms, will have to check into those.
I was also a big fan of the tlincalli (scorpian men), so might find a place for them out here, too.
I actually had a scorpion man empire far east of the Sundered Regions.
I really need to scan and post that map.
Don't be surprised: great minds think alike and I'm, like, totally 1337 and brilant. I kind of like Darkwyns, too: they'd be a great fit for the mountains.
Great mind? Me? Naw, I'm just a guy with way too much time on his hands ;)
I was also a big fan of the tlincalli (scorpian men), so might find a place for them out here, too.
Same here, had them running around Athas at one time, will probably add them as well.
As for the head of the yaun-ti, I had two factions, one that is all about spreading the yuan-ti way through force, and a much nicer, minority view of only changing those to yuan-ti that want it. Both are lead by a very powerful snake-like advanced being (though not using the same formula as Dragons and Avangions).
I had the one leading the nicer sect get cursed with a multiple personality disorder, one of the personalities wanting to kill itself for being so nice and going against the normal yuan-ti tradition, but that was in my nutier days.
Don't be surprised: great minds think alike and I'm, like, totally 1337 and brilant. I kind of like Darkwyns, too: they'd be a great fit for the mountains.
I had them as an underground community that were sensitive to light. They made their living by making poisons which were created by "venom masters" who sometimes doubled as asasssins.
I actually had a scorpion man empire far east of the Sundered Regions.
I really need to scan and post that map.
Yes you do.
/me cracks the whip
:D
Unfortunately, there's no way around that. Pretty much anyone who's in power at this time on Athas had something to do with Rajaat. The guy practically killed the entire world: his effect was pretty profound. Anyone who's magical and of any skill level to be considered a threat would had to have had some connection to the first sorcerer.
i seem to recall Rajaat's influence lie over the tablelands region of the world map...in same article as this post named for, denning hints it was essentially his foci (being the home of the pristine and the majority of life from green age, after all!). the original vision was pointed to some pretty alien forms of life...who knows what lies beyond the endless dunes?
and it may be a stretch, but why not...at least one other power of magic could still roam the land:
a trapped githzerai mage from the war with githyanki,
or just a planetrotting entity of one kind or another ("mirror, show me living hell. no, no, not that one...been there. someplace thats just...really, really, really hot. with dragons")
dont forget athasian illithid!
:coolcthul
dont forget athasian illithid!
:coolcthul
I had illithids dwelling beneath an area covered in a dome of shadow called the Lands of Eternal Dusk. They were basically mindflayers that fled to Athas after the fall of their plane spanning empire.
I actually had a scorpion man empire far east of the Sundered Regions.
Heh, before the Last Sea or any of the "new" material came out, I had them in a huge empire to the North. Haven't touched back on them, but this project might change that.
dont forget athasian illithid!
My plan was to put them in Undertyr.
My belief with the Kreen is that they are the decendents, or manipulations, of the Nature Benders, and that they were banished by the Life Shapers to the Crimson Savannah. For this reason, kreen will be very rare, as well, but not nonexistant.
I was going to have a mutant branch of kreen. Primarily burrows under the sand during the day - sunlight causes it great pain. They're larger and smarter than their Tableland cousins, and quite a bit more dangerous. They are also few in number, however, and have a strong sense of self-preservation.
I was going to have a mutant branch of kreen. Primarily burrows under the sand during the day - sunlight causes it great pain. They're larger and smarter than their Tableland cousins, and quite a bit more dangerous. They are also few in number, however, and have a strong sense of self-preservation.
Oooh, I like that.
/me starts taking notes
My belief with the Kreen is that they are the decendents, or manipulations, of the Nature Benders, and that they were banished by the Life Shapers to the Crimson Savannah. For this reason, kreen will be very rare, as well, but not nonexistant
Yeah, I subscribe to the belief that kreen were a life shaped creation (or at the very least altered by it) of the ancient halflings of the Blue Age as well.
I was going to have a mutant branch of kreen. Primarily burrows under the sand during the day - sunlight causes it great pain. They're larger and smarter than their Tableland cousins, and quite a bit more dangerous. They are also few in number, however, and have a strong sense of self-preservation.
So, you want Zerg Hydralisks???
Sysane-I scanned it years ago and will look for the file. If I can't find it I will re-scan it. Should I scan the Green Age map as well?
Sysane-I scanned it years ago and will look for the file. If I can't find it I will re-scan it. Should I scan the Green Age map as well?
Meh....That Green Age map wasn't really anything special. I wouldn't bother. But if you have the Sundered Regions map definitely get that to me if you can.
So, you want Zerg Hydralisks???
Heh. No. These guys have shovel-like claws that aid them in digging, eight legs instead of six, and a trio of psythe-like claws on each forelimb. I'll dig out that drawing...sure I got it around here somewhere...
Yuan-ti would be a simple one, a race spawned by the Pristine Tower that use to be one of the other races
Imagine a Yuan-Ti dragon...It'd probably look a lot like my avatar!
Imagine a Yuan-Ti dragon...It'd probably look a lot like my avatar!
I actually had the Yuan-Ti in my campaign ruled by an ancient undead Snake Headed Giant.
Imagine the purebloods being chased out of the yuan-ti communities for being "corrupted" with humanity ;)
The thri-kreens were a life shaped weapon of the nature benders, and the group that led them became more insect like over time through lifeshaping themselves..... think the similiar to the Dromites from the expanded psi handbook..... save they still have those that know lifeshaping. (there are some defilers.... as defiling/magic has always seemed to me to be an outgrowth of the nature bending arts. Just like psionics, as both come from a single source kinda..... at least the 2 power types were insinuated to be from a single more powerful force in the the cannon for Athas. But overall not that specialized in magic or psi..... they lost most of their lifeshaping secrets when they joined the hive mind.)
The second group became the Yaun-ti..... in this write up they are not descended of humans, but rather of the halflings...... Through nature bending/lifeshaping arts they became more snakelike to adapt to their new homes and to gain power for revenge on the nature masters. They are still quite skilled in lifeshaping, as well as its outgrowth into sorcery and psionics. And yes I was having them evolve into something like dragons .... though the snakelike lifeshaping aspect really changes the Dragon form alot. (though the powers remain the same.... there is a snakelike tail instead of hind legs) Larger Yaun-ti communities have a dragon ruling them as the city states do. (though I had the ones of this magnitude be far across the silt sea..... I was also having some of the Yuan-ti "assisting" in the cleansing wars with the champions..... After all the pureblooded, human looking, ones would fit right into the armies. And this was known to Rajaat, in fact the kingdoms across the silt sea were aiding in his goal..... as they wanted a return of the Blue age also.)
The only other group I had linked to the nature benders were the Illithids..... as they were experiments of the nature benders that survived the blue age with some of the lifeshaping secrets of the nature benders. (However I specifically left it unknown whether the halflings discovered them or created them.)
I like the idea of Yuan-ti being decendents of the Rhulisti. Kind of adds a tragic element to their existence. The question is: would they embrace their past or abhor it?
I'm a big fan of the mind-flayers, but I think that might be linking a bit too much up to the nature benders (or shapers, if they were an experiment similar to the Brown Tide: good gone bad). A better bet is that they came through at the same time Gith did, when Athas was younger and travel to and from it was apparently easier.
Thats how I see it as well. It would also link nicely with the fact that Gith are the de-evolved decendants of the Githiyanki.
I'm a big fan of the mind-flayers, but I think that might be linking a bit too much up to the nature benders (or shapers, if they were an experiment similar to the Brown Tide: good gone bad). A better bet is that they came through at the same time Gith did, when Athas was younger and travel to and from it was apparently easier.
I like the idea of Yuan-ti being decendents of the Rhulisti. Kind of adds a tragic element to their existence. The question is: would they embrace their past or abhor it?
Actually I was having the Yuan-ti embrace their heritage..... and their main goal was to return the blue age.... under their power. (This is the main reason they were backing Rajaat in the cleansing wars..... and makes his halfling followers in the form of the shadow giants a bit more interesting ..... as either they were unaware of the Yuan-ti or agreed with their goals.) The cities of the Yuan-ti (not the outposts just the major cities across the silt sea) were actually extremely similiar to the old Rhulisti cities.... and remain strong in the powers of the lifeshaping arts.
On the Illithids...... I was actually only looking at them as being assumed to be created by the Rhulisti by those who find refference to them or find their surviving cultures...... I was actually leaving their origin a mystery...... I personally consider it more likely some of the nature benders found the Illithids through research into other sources of energy (possible planar travel) and started using the tadpoles/immature illithids as starting points for sybiotic experimentation. (after all the illithids are also known for symbiotic/grafts..... so it makes since for them to be a basis for alot of life shaping.)
I personally consider it more likely some of the nature benders found the Illithids through research into other sources of energy (possible planar travel) and started using the tadpoles/immature illithids as starting points for sybiotic experimentation. (after all the illithids are also known for symbiotic/grafts..... so it makes since for them to be a basis for alot of life shaping.)
I dig this idea. It may have sparked some major conflicts between the illthids and the halflings of the Blue Age.
you know its scary, i remember the animated GI Joe movie back in the 80's, and whenever i see any art for or description of life-shaped items, i immediately think of the snake-men city in the arctic, the one that was completely biological and organic.
its like rhulisti deja-vu. plus they are snakemen, plotting overthrow of all evolved life and a return to their verdant paradise...definitely blue-age leftovers.
I like the irony of that idea, Seker: Illithiads being culled for experimentation. Maybe not the nature-benders or life-shapers, but later humans studied them (captured from the planes when the border was a bit easier to breach?) in order to gain insights into their psionic abilities. Interesting possibilities.
This pretty much settles it, though: I plan on putting both Tlincalli (one of my favorites) and the Yuan-ti into the Far Side of the Silt Sea supplement.
on the Yuan-ti...
you know its scary, i remember the animated GI Joe movie back in the 80's, and whenever i see any art for or description of life-shaped items, i immediately think of the snake-men city in the arctic, the one that was completely biological and organic.
its like rhulisti deja-vu. plus they are snakemen, plotting overthrow of all evolved life and a return to their verdant paradise...definitely blue-age leftovers.
Yeah, I've pointed that out in the past. It was Cobra-La. I feel that it majorly influanced DS creators on the idea for the Rhulisti/life-shaped items.
the whole snake-man thing is a throwback to Valusia and that whole episode, which goes into Lovecraftian era writing, im thinking Robert E. Howard, who gave us sword and sorcery, and together with Tolkien gave us the genre we all know and love.
the snakemen were all about organics, manipulating DNA, etc, long before the monkeys even had clubs. imho, Yuan-Ti are practically screaming out Yig. but wherever the DS designers drew influence, they done right!