Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Feb 24, 2005 14:16:07	I was thinking of running X4/X5 (which I've owned since I was a kid, but never actually got around to playing for some reason), and trying to decide whether to convert it to 3E or run it with the original rules. The first is much less work, but I think my players (brought up on AD&D) might choke on the idea of demi-humans as classes. While I was pondering this, I had a flash of insight: The basic Dwarf and Halfling correspond most closely to Fighters. The basic Elf (especially at high levels) corresponds more closely to a Fighter with bonus spell slots due to being an Elf than to a Magic-User with extra fighting abilities.
#2 zombiegleemax Feb 24, 2005 15:06:36	Compared to a Fighter, the Halfling looks like this: PR Strength and Dexterity (+5% XP for Str or Dex of 13+; +10% XP for Str and Dex of 13+) Require Dex 9+ and Con 9+ HD 1d6 instead of 1d8 (average 1 less hp per level) Can use only small melee weapons, short bows and light crossbows (interesting: as written in the Cyclopedia, Halflings can't use slings. Well, common sense) Combat bonuses: -2 AC vs. creatures larger than man-size; +1 to attack with missile weapons; +1 initiative; 90% chance to hide motionless in woodlands; 33% chance to hide motionless in dimly lit building interiors Better saving throws Two problems here. First, we have yet another experience bonus pattern, which isn't as easy to integrate as with the Elf. (What happens to these complicated patterns when we start trying to use classes that already have multiple PR's, anyway?) Second, at low levels the Halfling advances just like the Fighter. So taking this template would give you attack and AC bonuses, hiding abilities and better saving throws at the cost of 1 hp per level, with no additional penalties. For a Cleric or Rake (using my house rule of 1d6 hp per level, as posted last thread) that's pretty tempting. Hmm, maybe not. When I first wrote this up, I gave the Halfling template a small extra XP cost (+100 XP at level 2, +200 XP at level 3), but maybe that's not necessary. I had forgotten about the extreme weapon restrictions: a Halfling Cleric can only use the Blackjack, Torch, Holy Water, Burning Oil, Thrown Rock and Sling. (Note, BTW, that a Halfling with a blackjack is semi-crippled because they can't reach the head of large creatures, which is their favoured enemy). None of those beat 1d4 damage, so the Halfling Cleric really is kind of crippled when it comes to combat, and the Halfling Thief (who can use the Halfling standard Short Sword) can't really afford the -1hp per die if they intend to get into combat. So the only two really good combinations this opens up are a Halfling Thief who uses short bows and studiously avoids combat, and a Halfling Rake (using the 1d6 HD house rule) with a short sword. Both of those seem pretty appropriate for Halflings anyway, so maybe an XP penalty isn't warranted. So, assuming no penalty, how do we deal with the PR situation? We could say the Dex comes from the Halfling template and the Str comes from the Fighter class (like we did with the Elf). That way a Halfling Cleric would get +5% XP if either Wis or Dex was 13+, and +10% XP for both. As an exception, classes with Dex as a PR (like Thief) would need to use the standard Thief advancement (since "Dex 13+ and/or Dex 13+" makes no sense). This is a bit of a problem for min/maxing, though - giving Magic-Users Intelligence as a PR is a game balance issue, to prevent them offsetting their low combat abilities by dumping all their high scores into Dex and Con. A Halfling Magic-User could get a +10% XP with a 13 Dex, 13 Int and 18 Con (for 1d4+2 hp per level and -3 AC vs large creatures - this pretty much beats any human mage for survivability at low levels) or could get a +5% XP without any Int bonus at all! (Crafting magic items would suffer, but that's about it as far as I can see.) So I think the best thing to do is just make the Halfling follow the Elf Experience Bonus scheme - +5% if you have a Dex 13+ and a class PR of 13-15, +10% if you have a Dex 13+ and a class PR of 16-18. This makes the Halfling Fighter slightly inferior to the standard Halfling, but it's not too bad. One more note on the Halfling Thief: the Hide in Shadows skill and the Halfling hide abilities overlap quite a bit. My favoured way to handle this is to ask the player whether they're using their instinct or training to hide, so they get either the Halfling roll or the Thief roll. (Although it's pretty obvious what the answer would be: indoors, use the Halfling ability of 33% until level 7, when Hide in Shadows reaches 35%. Outdoors, use the Halfling ability of 90% until the Thief equals it at level 31. Yowza.) More generous DM's might roll the Halfling ability first and if that fails roll again using the Thief score. This only applies when remaining motionless, of course - when moving, you have to fall back on the Thief ability. So here's the Halfling Thief at low levels: Prime Requisite: Dexteritiy. Other Requirements: Dexterity 9 or better, Constitution 9 or better. (Of course, for a Thief the Dex requirement isn't a huge deal.) Experience Bonus: 5% for Dexterity 13-15. 10% for Dexterity 16-18. Hit Dice: 1d4-1 per level (minimum 1 hp per leve) Armour: Leather armour only; shield not permitted; must be made specially for halflings Weapons: Any one-handed Small melee weapon. Any Small missile weapon, plus the short bow and light crossbow Special Abilities: Open Locks, Find Traps, Remove Traps, Climb Walls, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Pick Pockets, Hear Noise, Backstab; Combat Bonuses (-2 AC vs. monsters larger than man-size, +1 to attack roll with missile weapons, +1 to Individual Initiative); 90% chance to hide motionless in woodlands; 33% chance to hide motionless in dimly-lit building interiors Saving Throws: as Halfling (Poison/Death Ray: 8, Magic Wands: 9, Paralysis/Turn to Stone: 10, Dragon Breath 13, Rod/Staff/Spell 12)
#3 zombiegleemax Feb 25, 2005 15:26:30	Once you reach high levels, the demi-human races start to diverge from the Fighter class. The first, obvious point is level limits and attack ranks. Let's ignore Attack Ranks for now and try a Dwarf capped at Level 12. After Level 9, a Fighter gets +2 hp per level and a Dwarf gets +3. So the Dwarf Template should include an extra +1 hp per level after level 9. The Dwarf and Fighter classes have differing information on creating strongholds, but it's not too important: this is world-dependant and really shouldn't be part of the core rules anyway. Just say that a Dwarf can create demihuman strongholds if they are still part of Dwarven society, and human Fighter type strongholds if they have been fully accepted by humans. Ditto for the benefits listed for "travelling characters" (extra henchmen, etc). At 9th Level, a human Fighter can become a Paladin or Avenger (which requires being accepted by a church that has such concepts, and by the church's Immortal patron) or a Knight (which involves taking on a role in human society). It's up to the individual DM whether to allow this of a demi-human or not - it would definitely require giving up ties to demi-human society and being fully accepted by humans (unless the DM wishes to create a demi-human clan that follows these concepts). Also at 9th Level, a Fighter gains the high-level Combat Options, which the Dwarf doesn't gain until 12th Level. I don't think it's worth making any special rules to smooth over this difference. Looking closely at the Combat Options, however, we see that the Dwarf can't Disarm a giant-sized opponent; it seems like this restriction should extend to the Thief's backstab ability and the Mystic's gentle touch. At this point, the Dwarf Template looks like this: Dwarf Template Requirements: By class, plus Constitution 9 or better Prime Requisite: By class Max Level: 12 Hit Dice: By class, +1 hp per level starting at Level 10 Armour: By class, but must be dwarf-sized Weapons: By class, but no Large melee weapons or longbows Special Abilites: By class (cannot perform Disarm, Backstab, Gentle Touch, or similar on giant-sized opponents), plus: infravision; extra languages (dwarf, gnome, goblin, kobold); 1 in 3 chance to detect traps, sliding walls, sloping corridors, new construction
#4 Hugin Feb 25, 2005 17:18:50	Very interesting thread, Joe. I kinda wish I still had an OD&D game on the go to help with play-testing. Of my current gaming friends, only my brother has played with the old rules (with me!). If only we had the time, I'd run an OD&D campaign to give them a "different" experience, but it would still be in Mystara of course! :D
#5 weasel_fierce Mar 03, 2005 3:09:40	Quite interesting, but you are sort of reinventing the wheel, instead of just using AD&D, I think. I've never actually had problems with demi humans as classes, once people get used to it.
#6 zombiegleemax Mar 03, 2005 4:34:36	I don't *like* AD&D. D&D 3rd Ed is ok, but the power levels are way different so it'd be a lot of work to convert all the modules.
#7 Monteblanco Mar 03, 2005 8:14:25	I've been discussing with my players do to something very similar. However, I am thinking of favoring the official demi-human profession. As such elven figther-mages, dwarven figthers, and halfling thieves go by the book, whereas other combinations pay an extra xp (-20%). In this way, a character who is a dwarf and a cleric would use the cleric class all the way but with the dwarven saving throws and special abilities, althought he would be penalized in 20% of his xp. Alternatively, one of my players wrote some rules that, according to him, are more in the spirit of the Rules Cyclopedia. He expanded the number of Prestige Classes available. By the rules, fighters and clerics may choose a prestige class when they reach the ninth level. He created many others to be choosen at fifth and ninth level, including many exclusive to the demi-human races. So, a fighter may choose to become a Scout at the fifth level, whereas a elf has the choice of become a Ranger, and so on. I still have to playtest them either way, but I think they might add a lot to the game without increase too much the complexity.
#8 weasel_fierce Mar 03, 2005 12:45:08	I dont know if you have access to them, but try looking around for the Gazeteer series. The elf, dwarf and halfling books all had options for continuing play after your level tops out, as well as dwarf clerics and I believe, an elf variant as well. Might be a good pointer. If you dont like AD&D though, the above system seems fine. Cheers
#9 zombiegleemax Mar 03, 2005 17:30:44	Hi, I am Monteblanco's player (from the post two positions above). I particularly liked the idea of making those 'templates', but I prefer the BD&D option of very iconic characters, ex: dwarves are by nature fighters and elves fighter mages. The rules I devised and showed him use the characters just as they are described on the rules, but add what I call 'paths', those paths are like prestige classes, but some are available from first level. They just add a couple of advantages, class features and (sometimes) disadvantages to the basic class for a XP fee paid everytime the character earns XP in adventures. The more 'advantageous' the path the higher the fee, the player may opt not to choose a path and advance faster than those that chose one... The paths are not open for everyone, some are specific for a certain race or class, and even some that are more 'usual' like scout have specialization, the elf may become a 'ranger' (a magical scout) and the 'halfling scout' is mostly a sneaky kind of thief. Let me post some of them as examples: Halfling scout (halfling) 20% XP cost • Gains move silently and hide in shadows as a thief half his level • Gains hear noise as a thief of his level. • The halfling woodland abilities add with the hide in shadows, indoors or outdoors, as long as he does not move. • Must use medium armor at most or looses benefits. Ranger (elf) 20% XP cost • +2 to track checks • Spells added to the list: Lvl 1: predict weather, detect danger. Lvl 2: obscure, speak with animals. Lvl 3: hold animal, protection from poison Lvl 4: speak with plants, summon animal Lvl 5: insect plague, pass plants • Gains move silently, hide in shadows and hear noise as a thief of the same level in forests. • No animal will attack the character if he makes a successful CHA check before the combat starts. • Must use light armor or elven chain mail or looses benefits. The special spells are not forgotten if the character is using forbidden armor, but they can’t be cast while in this armor. Scout (fighter, thief, elf) 10% XP cost • +2 to track checks. • Gains move silently, hide in shadows and hear noise as a thief of the same level in natural grounds. If the character already is a thief he counts as 2 levels higher in natural grounds. • Must wear light armor or looses move silently and hide in shadows. Crusader (fighter, cleric) 10% XP cost • +2 to cerimony checks. • +1 to all saving throws. • Turns undead as a cleric 1/3 his level, if the character becomes a paladin he turns as a cleric 2/3 of his level. If the character is already a cleric he counts as 1 level higher for turn attempts. • The character must take an oath of obedience to his church and superiors, obeying them in all manners and also an oath of owing only what he can carry with himself and on his horse – he may never be a landed cleric or fighter. Well, I don't see an elf thief in BD&D because it would break the 'iconic' feeling the game gives us, but I can see a dwarf that i mostly like a thief, with stealth while indoors and underground and some trap expertise and open locks ability, it does not look that bad to me. That's why every race has its own set of 'paths' that do not break the spirit of the game (in my opinion!).
#10 thorf Feb 24, 2006 7:26:28	Well, it's a year later (almost to the day!), and I am thinking along the exact same lines as you were in this thread, Joe. I agree with your comment about liking D&D - that is the only justification you need to customise it and make things more how you want them to be. Changing system is a far, far bigger step than adapting the one you know and like best. Anyway, my OD&D campaigns have always been very free in regards to characters, but I never wrote any major adaptations to the system, since we tended to just deal with things as they came up. Now I'm thinking about getting back to that, and formalising what is already established in my mind - and I find that your thread has already done more than half the work for me. When it comes down to it, most classes are as much about personality and style as abilities. My brother always played a very fighter-orientated elf, for example, whereas I would have wanted to be more magic-orientated. This is allowed by GAZ5's extra rules, and in fact the Gazetteer series adds in most of the "missing" classes for non-human races. Shamans and Wokani make dwarves, halflings and elves some of the most limited races of all to play, since you generally have more choice with any other race. What's more, the Gazetteers go to pains to add in even these races - GAZ6 gives us dwarven clerics, while GAZ6 and GAZ7 hint at dwarven magic-users; GAZ5 gives us fighter- and magic-specialised elves, while GAZ13 duplicates this, adding in clerical powers; GAZ8 compromises by adding a special class for halflings. The only class really left out is the thief. What I would like to do for my own house rules is formalise the system to the point where races have an XP modifier (as you were calculating), and can freely choose their classes, within certain setting rules - no dwarven mages in Rockhome, for example. Let's face it, Mystara is a far cry from the human-dominated world described in the old BECMI series, where demihumans are outclassed by high level humans, and have to learn from them in order to get their "attack ranks", and monster races don't have any classes at all; it is a world where humans are the most common race, but a colourful collection of other creatures co-exist with them - each with their own classes. I would take your system further, and work out XP chart modifiers for each of the possible races, from elves and dwarves to gnomes and pegataurs, faeries, aquatic races, humanoids, and so on and so forth. Rather than discarding the Gazetteer additions, I will incorporate them into each race's specialisations as much as possible. And of course some classes will remain as bonus classes, to be taken in addition to the main class.