Now we don't know exactly what is in the measure. There seems to be some common assumptions though. So there are some questions I want to ask about this, and some observations I want to make.
1) The measure is not as important as the oath, as it is the spirit of the oath that gives true weight to the measure.
I would have to say that to answer this question we should look first at what the oath is. The oath, as we all know is "My honour is my life". However, what do we define as honour? Do we appeal to our own conscience, or do we appeal to the measure?
If it is the former, then certainly the measure is outdated and unnecesary. You do what you think is right, and that becomes your code of honour. Your concience will guide you, and any rules will just get in the way of you doing the greatest good for the greatest number.
If it is the latter, then the measure is an important part of the oath itself. Therein you find that your honour is made up of duty, chivalry, discipline, faith, justice and obedience. Those terms in turn must be defined and taught within this body of work.
I would argue that the code of the knighthood is not "outdated" if it is something other than reformed liberal utilitarianism with a relativistic moral code. I think that in turning the knighthood into this, you would lose the stoicism and dedication to an ideal that made the knighthood special in the first place.
2) The measure is largely composed of dross, which needs reform to get it back to the pure spirit.
This certainly has roots in the protestant nature of our culture, in which institutions and traditions simply must be reformed to get back to the original spirit. Vatican II, The Book of Mormon, Deism or even the desire of the New Agers to supposedly go back to pre-christian religion is a continuation of the protestant desire for a "pure religion".
We also have in our culture the idea of intellectual, moral, and spiritual "progress". In the past is was used to justify manifest destiny, residential schools, and the colonial white man's burden. It is continued to this day when we use terms such as "fundamentalist", "redneck", or "Nascar Dad". These are all terms used to marginalize or deride a segment of the population, as not being as "advanced" as the rest of society.
That said, I am not opposed to genuine reform, and inefficiencies or corruptions can creep into a system. The only thing that concerns me is the manner in which it is carried out, and what the reasons are for the reform.
So in terms of the Measure, I will accept that in this particular case the Knights of Solamnia might need to reform their measure. I will reject however, that a philosophy that "any institution which is around for a while must need reform because that is the way of things" I will firmly reject. Institutions can have core principles that need not change, and they can also adapt to changes in the world without completely reimagining themselves. What is more, these institutions can still have value.
I will also object if the Measure was revised in such a manner that Lord Gunthar himself simply changed it himself. What happened to knightly councils? What happened to respect for this document? The Knights of Solamnia had a flourishing legal and philosophical tradition in the Measure, even if it did need reform.
If the reform of the Measure was something that took from the death of Sturm Brightblade to the death of Lord Gunthar (half a century), through innumerable knightly councils, then I could accept the revised measure as legitimate. This has been the way the Measure was reformed in the past after all.
Secondly, I want to see the results of the revised measure. If the result is now that the Knights are largely corrupt powerbrokers who acheive their goals through intrigue, then I have to reject the new Measure. How can I not?
If however the above is due to a crisis of leadership or membership, then certainly I can accept the revised measure.
Your post is well-written and well thought out. It's my opinion that the Measure needed revision after the WotL, but I don't know how much of that revision was accomplished by knightly councils and how much was Lord Gunthar. You are right in saying that the manner of the revision is vital, but I'm not sure if the corruption we've seen since the revision is due to the revision or if it's due to the fact that as the setting developed the readers and gamers have been seeing more and more of the things that have been 'behind the scenes.' Was the corruption (as we know it) always there and rose to the surface after the more overt corruption ended, or is it a result of change?
It's my opinion that the Measure needed revision after the WotL, but I don't know how much of that revision was accomplished by knightly councils and how much was Lord Gunthar.
The excellent Rose and the Skull novel focuses on the last days of Lord Gunthar's life and his efforts to cement peace between the Solamnic knights and the Knights of Neraka following the Chaos War. It also reveals that for the past 30+ years he has been working on revising the Measure, but that he had grown senile. Liam Ehrling discovers Gunthar's notes and is horrified to see the revisions are full of nonsense and incoherent. He takes the notes, works on them himself, and with the blessing of the Knight's Council reveals the new Measure as Gunthar's work and not his own. Sir Liam becomes the Grand Master and the Measure is remembered in history as Lord Gunthar's finest contribution to the Knighthood.
What I like about this novel is that Liam is portrayed as a compassionate and worthy individual who adores his mentor and seeks to restore the Knighthood to its shining glory as Gunthar intended. However, in doing so he is forced to conceal the truth of the Measure's authorship, which no doubt forms a deep-seated core of guilt within him that he will carry for the rest of his life.
Cheers,
Cam
I sort of hate seeing Gunthar going senile like that, and there was a point that I would have rather seen Gunthar finish the revised Measure as his own final work.
I have to admit, though, that I like the idea of Liam living a lie, but in so doing, cementing the place of Gunthar in history.
By the way, wouldn't Liam be getting close to retirement age?
I haven't read that novel yet, but I would think that Liam's efforts on revising the Measure would be based on the lessons taught by Lord Gunthar in his better days.
Definitely. Liam had a deep and lasting respect for Lord Gunthar and his dreams. This comes out fairly well, I think, in his reaction to his discovery. Having had experiences dealing with loved ones suffering from dementia I can empathize strongly with how Liam felt, and I agree - it would have been much better had Lord Gunthar's career ended in glory. Liam, I believe, felt the same and did what he could to ensure that Gunthar would not be remembered as a senile old man writing nonsense, but as the father of the new Measure.
And yeah, even Liam's getting on now!
Cheers,
Cam
the first two pages of the book update us on the current situation of northern ansalon more thoroughly than any other product, despite some wonky dates. Like, the entire prologue is off by a few years. It would have us believe that Coryn did her miracles in 37 SC, which is two years before the end of WoS.
haven't gotten past that yet, but i have a feeling that a lot of game and culture concepts are going to be ironed out in this series.
I'm actually not looking foward to that trilogy at all. Not to bring up the whole topic of the other thread, but I'm really worried there will be some huge thing that happens and I really dont want anymore. I'm worried the Knights will come out of this trilogy looking like nothing what they are supposed to be, and be more "modern" or have different ideals. And that would just be a shame. I dunno.. I think this trilogy has me more "worried" than any other trilogy in the past years.
Onto the Measure..as I said in a different thread, it almost seems too many people jump on the bandwagon of saying the Measure needs updating. Now I think certain parts needed to be redone probably, and polished upa bit, but at the core of the Measure is a very good ideal. Maybe it got way too big, but slimming it down is a viable project.
I do agree with ferratus on the other thread when he said that it is kind of annoying to think one man(well two) made up the revised Measure. I would have had a Council appointed for just this sort of thing spend a few years going over it and doing changes. Even if it took awhile, I think it would be better than just one(or two) people doing it.
I dunno, I personally dont find Krynn that much different now than what it was before when it relates to the Knighthood. I really dont see much that they need to "get with the times". They took out the requirement for being a noble for Rose knights. Women were joining. About the only thing else left would be to let other races in. Some people see the inclusion of White Robes as a good change. Personally I liked the fact that they didnt utilize wizardry. Not every single organization needs to utilize fighters/clerics/wizards. It starts to become redundant.
I think we need a little bit more clarification, in the Measure, or even just in game terms of the differences between the Crown, Sword, and Rose orders. We have a basic, skeleton outline and thats about it. I used to think of them as stairs, and each one was a step. I now like looking at them as seperate entities, that you need a little bit of flavor from one, to get into the next. And so on.
The Knighthood when it comes down to it, needs a little bit more clarification. Whether its the Measure, the Orders, the culture, etc.. As Cam said in the other thread, Knights are *hard* to understand.
I dunno.. whether the Measure gets updated really doesnt matter to me. I didnt have too much of a problem with it in the first place. I thought a lot of the fault was on the people of the time, more than the Measure. And their thoughts kept spreading to more and more knights. So I dunno..
I'm just seriously worried how much different the Knighthood will be after this trilogy.
Granted, the events in Doug Niles' Rise of Solamnia trilogy may prove me wrong. ;)
I do agree with Ferratus on the other thread when he said that it is kind of annoying to think one man(well two) made up the revised Measure. I would have had a Council appointed for just this sort of thing spend a few years going over it and doing changes. Even if it took awhile, I think it would be better than just one(or two) people doing it.
How could it possibly have legitimacy if this is the way it was done? It would essentially mean that the Grandmaster is the Measure, have full authority to alter the Measure, and can perfectly interpret the measure. It is, in a word, Papal Infalliability.
That's what Papal Infalliability was brought in for after all. It was essentially to centralize authority about church doctrine and dogma in the person of the Bishop of Rome, and not have any more Church Councils.
It became obvious by the time of Vatican II that this simply wasn't going to work, and the authority of the Church Councils over the Pope was reinstated.
[sidebar]
Papal Infalliability is when a pope, speaking on behalf of the church on the matters of faith and morals (and no other time) is considered to be free from error in deciding theological issues. He essentially is the final voice of authority on these issues, such as the authority of the Supreme Court (which in its own way is considered free from error in interpreting the law).
This has been used twice in the church's history, in regards to affirming the immaculate conception of Mary and the assumption of Mary into heaven, two theologically thorny issues that have been a part of the theology for hundreds of years.
[/sidebar]
Anyway, the Grandmaster seemingly now has this power if we assume what Dragonhelm and Cam Banks are saying is true. However, if we assume that the knights councils and debates that Ariakan found so pointless were to revise the measure, it makes it more of a collegial, institutional effort.
Sturm Brightblade is ever, the quiessential "perfect" Knight of Solamnia. Huma Dragonbane is a close second, but I'd like to suggest Sturm is an even better representation of what it means to be a great Knight of Solmania.
His story loses some resonance if the Measure is treated as something inherently wrong and flawed, because his attempts to live up to their ideals also include a recognition that much of his better qualities are because of the Measure's influence.
During the last days of Sturm's life he recognized the Measure had become a problem, not because the Measure itself was a bad thing, but because the Knights who were quoting it were corrupt (and please don't ban me moderator) bastards. Even Derek Crownguard, who was a noble individual, was unable to see the measure was always meant to be a signpost and strict following of its every utterance is bound to lose its implied meanings.
Any pure legal system, I'd argue, is Lawful Neutral not Good.
A revision of the Measure is merely symbolic in many ways thus. The Measure actually is entirely pointless if the quality of the Knights is equal to Sturm, Huma, and a few others. Unfortunately, post the War of Chaos, the Knights were decidedly anything but.
With the Dark Knights having been honored by the Knighthood for their courage in the War of Chaos, only to have them stab the Solamnics in the back and take over Palanthas for Skie, Solamnia was oppressed in a brutal military tyranny. I'd honestly argue that Linsha Majere is a perfect representation of the times for the Knights, and not necessarily is this a bad thing (just realistic). The Knights were clobbered and the few who honestly cared were trying to overthrow the Dark Knights in secrecy rather than follow any semblance of the measure.
During this time I'd wager atheism, cynicism, and plenty of other shocking attributes entered the Knighthood. I'd almost suggest that their degeneration was as succient as the Knights of Nekaras. Linsha and company aren't bad people but the titles they bear are given because of military victories and heroism, not living up to a very specific idea of what a Knight should be. Following that idea in a military dictatorship might even be suicidal and stupid, which the MEasure decidedly teaches not to be.
When the God's return, then the shavit hits the Windmill. Kiri-Jonilith immediately favors the Knights against the Knights of Nekara and starts clearing house. It's a serious case of "Oh crazzap, the boss is back! Everyone look busy!"
Knights like Linsha are banished and the Measure is reinstituted overnight except the Knighthood of the Crown, Rose, and Sword haven't really EXISTED for years now. It's a really pathetic sight and it will take many years to hammer out the dents.
the difference is ironically the novels are operating in a different world than the sourcebooks, which is about the END result. The novels seem to be about the process of getting from the New Age to the sourcebooks.
the difference is ironically the novels are operating in a different world than the sourcebooks, which is about the END result. The novels seem to be about the process of getting from the New Age to the sourcebooks.
This isn't entirely wrong. I think that as a designer I have different goals than a writer would. Even as I was writing Spectre of Sorrows I had to think constantly about presenting the overarching plot as something malleable and ultimately reliant on the players and the DM. You have to set things up, and leave them there, and the novelist doesn't do that. They get to pull things down and then mess with them a lot. In other words, novelists act as DM and player, with the designers and game writers acting as (understandably) neither of these.
Cheers,
Cam
His story loses some resonance if the Measure is treated as something inherently wrong and flawed, because his attempts to live up to their ideals also include a recognition that much of his better qualities are because of the Measure's influence.
During the last days of Sturm's life he recognized the Measure had become a problem, not because the Measure itself was a bad thing, but because the Knights who were quoting it were corrupt (and please don't ban me moderator) bastards.
First off, let me say that you are doing some damn fine posts about the subject of the Knighthood Charles. More moderate and measured than myself, more optimistic too... yet palatable to myself in ideas. Good to see that a community can moderate itself with fresh ideas, even if there isn't a constant influx of new people.
Anyway, this has also been my impression of the flaw of the knighthood. I had no problems with the revision of the measure itself, but I did have a problem with the resulting behavior, and how the measure specifically was revised. I also was rather annoyed that the failings of ambition by the knighthood and using the principles and philosophies to their own ends became a polemic against having any sort of ideals (specifically dogmatic ones) at all.
A revision of the Measure is merely symbolic in many ways thus. The Measure actually is entirely pointless if the quality of the Knights is equal to Sturm, Huma, and a few others. Unfortunately, post the War of Chaos, the Knights were decidedly anything but.
This however I would disagree with. If this was true there would be no point to the study of ethics and philosophy, because only innately moral people could be capable of virtue. I don't think that's what you are saying however. I think you would agree that the measure is useless if you are not moved to live up to the spirit of the ideals preached, but is necessary for the person to understand how to be honourable (just, pious and obedient).
I'd honestly argue that Linsha Majere is a perfect representation of the times for the Knights, and not necessarily is this a bad thing (just realistic). The Knights were clobbered and the few who honestly cared were trying to overthrow the Dark Knights in secrecy rather than follow any semblance of the measure.
That is definately the message that the 5th Age team was trying to get across. I think it ended up making little sense however, since it involved scattering your forces to the four winds rather than concentrating your forces to defend Solamnia (specifically the south of Solamnia). I can understand that they wouldn't want to challenge the Dragon Overlords, but they seemed to not care about concentrating their efforts to clandestine activities in the North of Solamnia.
During this time I'd wager atheism, cynicism, and plenty of other shocking attributes entered the Knighthood. I'd almost suggest that their degeneration was as succient as the Knights of Nekaras. Linsha and company aren't bad people but the titles they bear are given because of military victories and heroism, not living up to a very specific idea of what a Knight should be.
I wouldn't have minded as much if that was the way it was presented. Instead the knights who looked like the ones we grew up with weren't presented as people who were reluctantly going along with the state of affairs, but who were idiots, stuffed shirts, and corrupt. The Linsha's and others were considered the ideal knights. I never minded the character of Linsha herself, but I didn't like that.
When the God's return, then the shavit hits the Windmill. Kiri-Jonilith immediately favors the Knights against the Knights of Nekara and starts clearing house. It's a serious case of "Oh crazzap, the boss is back! Everyone look busy!"
I don't know if I buy that either. It seems to me that the principles of the knighthood should survive even without the gods. Something that the knights take upon themselves. Of course, you are right that with the death of the dragon overlords, open warfare is possible again. This makes the codes of warfare, service, and rulership written in the measure much more relevant.
Knights like Linsha are banished and the Measure is reinstituted overnight except the Knighthood of the Crown, Rose, and Sword haven't really EXISTED for years now. It's a really pathetic sight and it will take many years to hammer out the dents.
Certainly recruitment of young boys like in "kender stew" might be the first priority in regaining the professionalism and expertise of the knighthood. Hmmm... a military training academy (ala Westpoint) might make for an interesting gaming site.
I think, honestly, that the Measure has always been portrayed as something that was meant to be a guide rather than a signpost.
The Measure, by definition, is a guide to living the Oath. It is a set of laws as well for when people act against the Measure.
What we've got from True Blue, Ferratus, and myself is largely a "backlash" against the attempt to portray the Measure as something that's always been inherently worthless.
The Measure isn't inherently worthless. It began, at least, with great ideals. Throughout the years, it has had modifications and additions, and became a complex beast that spanned over 30 volumes. More on this below.
Sturm Brightblade is ever, the quiessential "perfect" Knight of Solamnia. Huma Dragonbane is a close second, but I'd like to suggest Sturm is an even better representation of what it means to be a great Knight of Solmania.
I would switch those, personally (of course, I'm biased ;) ). Huma represents that untouchable legend within the knighthood as to what being a true knight is all about. His legend is placed upon the highest of pedestals.
Sturm was a modern day example of what the knighthood should be about. He showed the knights that it is the meaning of the Measure, not the letter of the law, that is important. In other words, he lived the Oath.
During the last days of Sturm's life he recognized the Measure had become a problem, not because the Measure itself was a bad thing, but because the Knights who were quoting it were corrupt (and please don't ban me moderator) bastards. Even Derek Crownguard, who was a noble individual, was unable to see the measure was always meant to be a signpost and strict following of its every utterance is bound to lose its implied meanings.
Knights like Crownguard placed the letter of the Measure above all, yet failed to grasp the meaning of the Oath.
Any pure legal system, I'd argue, is Lawful Neutral not Good.
One of my favorite discussion points is the difference between law and justice. Justice, on the other hand, revolves around doing what is right. Law strives to bring about justice, but the two are not one and the same.
The Knights of Solamnia began to follow the law after the Cataclysm, placing greater influence in the Measure than in the Oath. In the process, justice suffered. Not to say it wasn't there, just that the letter of the law got in the way of doing what was right.
The Knights of the Rose, who are supposed to be (pardon the pun) the "flower of knighthood", are supposed to represent the greatest of Solamnic ideals. That's why justice is one of their measures.
A revision of the Measure is merely symbolic in many ways thus. The Measure actually is entirely pointless if the quality of the Knights is equal to Sturm, Huma, and a few others. Unfortunately, post the War of Chaos, the Knights were decidedly anything but.
The Measure is only as good as the man who lives the Oath? Interesting...
During this time I'd wager atheism, cynicism, and plenty of other shocking attributes entered the Knighthood.
I would agree that some degeneration came into play. The knights didn't have the guidance of the Solamnic Triumvirate. While some Sword Knights may have picked up mysticism, not every one would. Some Sword Knights lost all power. How would that influence the knighthood?
When the God's return, then the shavit hits the Windmill. Kiri-Jonilith immediately favors the Knights against the Knights of Nekara and starts clearing house. It's a serious case of "Oh crazzap, the boss is back! Everyone look busy!"
I'm sure the Knights of Solamnia had a major change at that point. One of their big patron gods was back, kicking butt. Those mystics within the knighthood would have mostly become clerics, as mystics still followed the ways of Kiri-Jolith during the years without gods.
When Khellendros and the Knights of Neraka came in, they beat the Solamnics but good. The Solamnics probably felt a certain sense of helplessness. When Kiri-Jolith comes back, suddenly the knighthood would have had a bit of a resurgence.
Question is, was it too late? Had the knighthood already been corrupted by this point?
the difference is ironically the novels are operating in a different world than the sourcebooks, which is about the END result. The novels seem to be about the process of getting from the New Age to the sourcebooks.
We'll see.
I don't think the Measure needs to be outdated so much as we need a shining example of the Oath. The Measure was updated roughly 30 years prior. It benefits from Gunthar's lifetime of work and his wisdom, as well as Liam Ehrling's love for Gunthar and his ideals.
What has happened is that there are now knights who are not living up to the Oath. Corruption seems to be everywhere.
To achieve a knighthood where the knights are once again following the path of honor, there has to be something done. A selfless sacrifice akin to Sturm's may be the key. Of course, I'd like to see something a bit new.
Good topic, guys.
First off, let me say that you are doing some damn fine posts about the subject of the Knighthood Charles. More moderate and measured than myself, more optimistic too... yet palatable to myself in ideas. Good to see that a community can moderate itself with fresh ideas, even if there isn't a constant influx of new people.
Thanks Ferratus, I'm glad we're able to see eye to eye on some issues. I think ultimately that they're testing the waters somewhat but the real trick is to note that the books by the founders will be the "real" guiding force in Dragonlance and Sovereign Press....the novels by WotC are only minor points I think honestly and you can make a lot of shapes out of the tofu they present with sufficient background and newspeak (plus saying whatever happened quickly changed).
The Measure isn't going away any time soon because its the focus of a lot of dramatic conflict and puts the L in LG.
Anyway, this has also been my impression of the flaw of the knighthood. I had no problems with the revision of the measure itself, but I did have a problem with the resulting behavior, and how the measure specifically was revised. I also was rather annoyed that the failings of ambition by the knighthood and using the principles and philosophies to their own ends became a polemic against having any sort of ideals (specifically dogmatic ones) at all.
Ultimately, I think its best to view Lord Gunther's book in IC terms. Specifically, that Lord Gunther's book was an optimistic and wonderful revision with Vinus Solamnus' ideals recorded down for posterity plus the most direct and relevant passages about honor. 3 Volumes that talked about ideals and could be easily digested. (Rather ironic since Vinus was a right barve himself)
Unfortunately, it came off as a spectacular failure because the circumstanecs of the Knighthood were so complextly unexpected in their change.
It's also possible, IC, that somehow the ditching of 34 volumes of Measure gave license to the younglings that somehow the entire thing was no longer inviolate. More likely, I think that the Solamnics that entered the Knighthood were disillusioned deeply with the fact that the gods left them to the Dragon Overlords.
This however I would disagree with. If this was true there would be no point to the study of ethics and philosophy, because only innately moral people could be capable of virtue. I don't think that's what you are saying however. I think you would agree that the measure is useless if you are not moved to live up to the spirit of the ideals preached, but is necessary for the person to understand how to be honourable (just, pious and obedient).
I will admit, you are correct here. The Measure, like any work of philosophy and ethics, is meant to be something that will inspire individuals to achieve a higher standard still. I think its important to note that the problem was with the people not remotely moved by the Measure during the Fifth Age.
I'm confident that the Trilogy, while off to a horrific start for most (because the book shows a world where the Knighthood has fallen farther than at ANY point in Dragonlance history) it will end us back at square 1.
That is definately the message that the 5th Age team was trying to get across. I think it ended up making little sense however, since it involved scattering your forces to the four winds rather than concentrating your forces to defend Solamnia (specifically the south of Solamnia). I can understand that they wouldn't want to challenge the Dragon Overlords, but they seemed to not care about concentrating their efforts to clandestine activities in the North of Solamnia.
On this end, lets not forget that the Knighthood under Gunther's successor was already letting in non-Solamnics and its entirely possible that the Knights of Solamnia in other lands were actually foreigners returning to their land of birth. We should also remember Bonnie Prince Charlie and plenty of other "nobility in exile" who were in foreign countries to court foreign troops and plot from territories outside of their existing ones.
The Knights might have been hiring mercenaries (shock!), running supplies, or any number of activities. If we want to be perfectly craven, its also possible they were attempting to draw Knight attention elsewhere.
I wouldn't have minded as much if that was the way it was presented. Instead the knights who looked like the ones we grew up with weren't presented as people who were reluctantly going along with the state of affairs, but who were idiots, stuffed shirts, and corrupt. The Linsha's and others were considered the ideal knights. I never minded the character of Linsha herself, but I didn't like that.
I think this is largely a case of presentation. Had I been a writer, I'd have focused more on the fact that these individuals are essentially relics of a previous age in some respect (no less valid of course) but we're used to Knights being able to stand boldly against evil. In Linsha's case, its not actually an assumption that's incorrect that the Knights are now a gureilla force and the traditions are somewhat out of place.
It again, implies a knighthood that's degenerated far more than anyone's suspected and that's not necessarily incorrect. The impliance in the books has been the Knights were turned against almost to the man by the people...AGAIN....and we know how Solamnics react post-Cataclysm 1.
I don't know if I buy that either. It seems to me that the principles of the knighthood should survive even without the gods. Something that the knights take upon themselves. Of course, you are right that with the death of the dragon overlords, open warfare is possible again. This makes the codes of warfare, service, and rulership written in the measure much more relevant.
Certainly it did, in a variety of forms I'm sure. The question becomes how the Measure was interpreted in extraordinary circumstances. None are necessarily "wrong" either.
Dhamon Grimwulf, while certainly no Solamnic, is an honorable man but when faced with the Overlords is largely broken of his willpower. Linsha Majere becomes focused on military victory and strategy rather than etiquette or the higher moral codes of the Knights (She becomes a Legion of Steel member in all reality), while others attempt to live like Solamnic knights no matter what.
Whether your sympathetic to that is ultimately up to you.
Certainly recruitment of young boys like in "kender stew" might be the first priority in regaining the professionalism and expertise of the knighthood. Hmmm... a military training academy (ala Westpoint) might make for an interesting gaming site.
The Knights have a great deal of rebuilding to do largely. Essentially, we have a population with large scale collaboration with the enemy....plenty of people who violated the Measure every which way from Sunday in SOME fashion (even to fight the Dragon Overlords)....and we have a land divided by war.
Not to mention that plenty of the Non-Solamnics in Sanction were effectively acting like REAL Knights while those rebuilding back in Solamnia are now fantastically nationalistic.
The Measure, by definition, is a guide to living the Oath. It is a set of laws as well for when people act against the Measure.
Quite so.
The Measure isn't inherently worthless. It began, at least, with great ideals. Throughout the years, it has had modifications and additions, and became a complex beast that spanned over 30 volumes. More on this below.
Lord Gunther's revisions I think came at a time when they were needed but didn't have a time to "settle" honestly. No sooner had they been implemented that the Dragon Overlords wiped out the creme of the Solamnic Brotherhood, the foreigners/auxillary etc weren't "broken in", and the entire North was conquered with their supporters wiped out or corrupted.
I would switch those, personally (of course, I'm biased ;) ). Huma represents that untouchable legend within the knighthood as to what being a true knight is all about. His legend is placed upon the highest of pedestals.
Quite so, which is ironic because Huma was oddly alot more approachable than Sturm. Sir Dragonbane was a seemingly "average" knight who held the Measure in regard but certainly not with the fanatic awe that Sturm did. He understood its nuances and what was implied better than most, along with what wasn't.
Sturm was a modern day example of what the knighthood should be about. He showed the knights that it is the meaning of the Measure, not the letter of the law, that is important. In other words, he lived the Oath.
Ironically, I wonder how Ariakan played with the concept in people's heads. If the Knights of Takhasis could be honorable then there went a great deal of people's questions of whether or not they had to be good as well as fulfilling the oath...even unconsciously.
Knights like Crownguard placed the letter of the Measure above all, yet failed to grasp the meaning of the Oath.
Largely because the knights themselves were so poor at this time. Verminaard and Gregor Ut Matar we should not forget were also Knights of Solamnia at this time (or more precisely of Solmanic stock).
One of my favorite discussion points is the difference between law and justice. Justice, on the other hand, revolves around doing what is right. Law strives to bring about justice, but the two are not one and the same.
A wonderful parrallel.
The Knights of Solamnia began to follow the law after the Cataclysm, placing greater influence in the Measure than in the Oath. In the process, justice suffered. Not to say it wasn't there, just that the letter of the law got in the way of doing what was right.
Ironically, the Knights whethered far better than after the Second Cataclysm. The Knights after the Second Cataclysm had many turn to banditry or worse but most were willing to hold onto the spirit of their duties even if they had some serious issues with the gods.
The Knights of the Rose, who are supposed to be (pardon the pun) the "flower of knighthood", are supposed to represent the greatest of Solamnic ideals. That's why justice is one of their measures.
Ironically, I keep thinking the Rose Knights main problem is the expectation of so much from them. They would do far better to bestow the title at the twilight of careers rather than at the beginning.
The Measure is only as good as the man who lives the Oath? Interesting...
Quite so. Basically, too many individuals were drawn to the Knighthood for their own base purposes and got in because of the circumstances of the times.
I would agree that some degeneration came into play. The knights didn't have the guidance of the Solamnic Triumvirate. While some Sword Knights may have picked up mysticism, not every one would. Some Sword Knights lost all power. How would that influence the knighthood?
We can't forget the influence of Takhasis during this time as well.
Essentially, the Mystics exist and have 'divine proof' that the power of the Gods exist in themselves. No longer is their a guiding hand behind the feeling of the gods and plenty of cooperation was occurring even befroe the Knights of Takhasis' 'betrayal' due to the alliance against Chaos.
The introduction of mysticism severely eroded the church's foundations and its place in the Knighthood as a guiding force.
I'm sure the Knights of Solamnia had a major change at that point. One of their big patron gods was back, kicking butt. Those mystics within the knighthood would have mostly become clerics, as mystics still followed the ways of Kiri-Jolith during the years without gods.
Don't forget that Khellandros' death also effectively removed the only major obstacle for the Knights to vent their frustration for years and years of impotence. My idea behind the Rose, Crown, and Sword's seperation is actually based on the idea that essentially the Knighthood had been operating in seperate 'cells' that suddenly got massive numbers of recruits and fell on the Knights like hot knives on butter.
When Khellendros and the Knights of Neraka came in, they beat the Solamnics but good. The Solamnics probably felt a certain sense of helplessness. When Kiri-Jolith comes back, suddenly the knighthood would have had a bit of a resurgence.
The Knights also had the time to fall upon the forces of the Knighthood in Solamnia while the "main bulk of the army" was away. Mina effectively removed the Knighthood from its garrisons in the place for Takhasis ressurection and the disillusionment, infighting, and no doubt attacks/possible civil war between the feuding factions made them forced to basically retake Solamia again...and as we know, they probably failed.
Question is, was it too late? Had the knighthood already been corrupted by this point?
Kiri Jonialath can always start over. My guess is that the ideals of the Knighthood have spread very far and wide but its a slow process to rebuild since the foundations have been worn to the roots.
What has happened is that there are now knights who are not living up to the Oath. Corruption seems to be everywhere.
I think we'll recieve one sooner or later. Probably later but as a note, they're tending towards "outcast heroes" now but I don't think the protagionist of the Rose is a hero...the book is written in the style of the Minotaur Trilogy and Horak is set up for a fall not heroism.
To achieve a knighthood where the knights are once again following the path of honor, there has to be something done. A selfless sacrifice akin to Sturm's may be the key. Of course, I'd like to see something a bit new.
Good topic, guys.
Agreed.