1. My pc are of a high lvl for the world of ravenloft (as i compare to the most important PNJ level), and i have trouble handling that, i found it hard to make a gothic atmosphere when they seem to be able to resist to poisons or others nasty tricks. Without forgetting the CR of the random encounter that is very lower than them. I would need some advice on how to handle that.
2. As my pc are of a relatively high lvl, theirs players want to have magic items. It normal after all, but this is ravenloft a low magic world. So i want to have some advice on the disponibility of magic items in market and what could i give to them without increasing the probleme number 1.
First: The two biggest criminal underworlds of RL are centered in Darkon via the Kargat/Kargatane and in Nova Vassa via Malken. IMO Malken makes a much better "Proffesor Moriarity" of the Core than he does a "Hyde" to Hiregaard's "Jeckle". If your campaign takes a turn toward breaking up a series of rings of criminal eneterprises you should be able to justify a large number of higher level rogues in Nova Vassa.
This could take place amid a backdrop of political unrest as the houses slowly move to grind against each other in an attempt to overthrow Othmar...featuring some fairly high level "nobles" as well. As the Church of the Law Giver has a stake in the social order expect to conflict with an entranched religious order.
Malken, the Church and Noble houses all have convoluted plans and should learn quickly what weaknesses the PCs have. Two tanks with no will saves? Friends ina distant village languishing helplessly? A tendency to shoot first and ask questions latter? All of these can be turned against a party if the villians are ready for them.
Increasing the pacing of your adventures will increase the challenge to the PCs. A single EL 7 encounter isn't a problem for a party of 9th level PCs but if they have to face four to six of them before they can rest (possibly to get to the final more difficult encounter) they're going to find themselves taxed, and perhaps a little worried about whether or not they have enough "juice" to make it through to the end. This should also lead to fewer days when they have "encounters" as everything tends to go down within 24 hours.
Finally feel free to move the PCs around. Hazalan, Barovia, Tepest, the Shadow Rift, Keening and (especially) Darkon are all nearby and can all support some higher level adventures. The Gentleman Caller can appear anywhere bringing aditional plot hooks. Perhaps the Headless Horseman has been seen A LOT on Nova Vasi roads...why? How do the PCs permanently stop him? 9th level is getting to be in the higher realms that RL easily supports but you should find lots of options...
...if nothing else remember the Black Duke.
Second: keep magic low despite the player expectations. This is a magic poor world, and Nova Vassa isn't known for its wizards. Magic ought to come with a price. Your PCs could gain such equipment from trading to the south with Hazalan, dealing with vistani or even the Church of the Lawgiver/Bane - but their going to be making deals with the devil that can (and should!) come back to create their own problems. Minor potions in small quantities might be sold to PCs until the group in question becomes unhappy with what the PCs are doing. Then the flow is cut off. Anything permanent is probably part of a significant NPCs possesions or the result of a major quid-pro-quo.
PCs of that level ought to be able to start crafting their own items. Even then sometimes (certainly not all the time) they'll have to choose between riding to the rescue or finishing a "special project."
Hope that helps,
-Eric Gorman
For example, which is more Ravenloft-y.
A +1 sword, bracers of defense +2, a bag of holding, ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1, a few ioun stones, and a wand of levitation.
Or
A +1/+1 defending Staff of Protection dedicated to the PC's prestige class's Society, passed down from a legendary member of that society who fell in battle. (and perhaps with a bit of a curse....)
The Staff feels more like a dangerous and mysterious relic, but probably costs about the same gp. (Don't call me out on the math, I'm estimating
)Because the CR's are computed by assuming everyone has the appropriate amount of magic items, your PC's will have a tough time if you just veto them. So, I say give it to them, but just make sure you put in the effort to make each one seem special.
(Even if you have to break the rules by combining several functions into a single item. Since you're never going to give them enough magic items to fill out their "slots", who cares if 3 items take the slot of 1? What's wrong with a "cloak of charisma" and an amulet of natural armor in the same necklace if you never give them a magic cloak? Etc...)
But now I realize that making a ravenloft game for players isn t as easy as reading about the world. And more when they are mid-lvl and don t have problem with things that should usually pose threat to a normal person.
And with their constant ask about magic item, i start to think about bringing them back in FR or simply make a TPK and start a game in eberron when they will have their damn gooddies...
If others people have something to add or others advice about how handling a ravenloft game. I keep my eyes open!
And Nova Vassa is big - all the other domains are a little cramped sometimes, so you've got more room to let things roam.What kind of flavor are you giving to your Nova Vassa though? That's one thing I could never figure out about this domain - even the published books never really made up their minds. What I mean is, Dementlieu has that French thing going, Mordent is the English countryside, Barovia is Transylvania. There are some alternate versions of Arkendale (American South), Invidia (Spain), Falkovnia (Nazi Germany), and Borca/Dorvinia (Italy or mafia-style). But what in the world is Nova Vassa all about?
The RL DMG addresses several of these problems. I chip in an extra two cents.
First: The two biggest criminal underworlds of RL are centered in Darkon via the Kargat/Kargatane and in Nova Vassa via Malken. IMO Malken makes a much better "Proffesor Moriarity" of the Core than he does a "Hyde" to Hiregaard's "Jeckle". If your campaign takes a turn toward breaking up a series of rings of criminal eneterprises you should be able to justify a large number of higher level rogues in Nova Vassa.
This could take place amid a backdrop of political unrest as the houses slowly move to grind against each other in an attempt to overthrow Othmar...featuring some fairly high level "nobles" as well. As the Church of the Law Giver has a stake in the social order expect to conflict with an entranched religious order.
Malken, the Church and Noble houses all have convoluted plans and should learn quickly what weaknesses the PCs have. Two tanks with no will saves? Friends ina distant village languishing helplessly? A tendency to shoot first and ask questions latter? All of these can be turned against a party if the villians are ready for them.
Increasing the pacing of your adventures will increase the challenge to the PCs. A single EL 7 encounter isn't a problem for a party of 9th level PCs but if they have to face four to six of them before they can rest (possibly to get to the final more difficult encounter) they're going to find themselves taxed, and perhaps a little worried about whether or not they have enough "juice" to make it through to the end. This should also lead to fewer days when they have "encounters" as everything tends to go down within 24 hours.
Finally feel free to move the PCs around. Hazalan, Barovia, Tepest, the Shadow Rift, Keening and (especially) Darkon are all nearby and can all support some higher level adventures. The Gentleman Caller can appear anywhere bringing aditional plot hooks. Perhaps the Headless Horseman has been seen A LOT on Nova Vasi roads...why? How do the PCs permanently stop him? 9th level is getting to be in the higher realms that RL easily supports but you should find lots of options...
...if nothing else remember the Black Duke.
Second: keep magic low despite the player expectations. This is a magic poor world, and Nova Vassa isn't known for its wizards. Magic ought to come with a price. Your PCs could gain such equipment from trading to the south with Hazalan, dealing with vistani or even the Church of the Lawgiver/Bane - but their going to be making deals with the devil that can (and should!) come back to create their own problems. Minor potions in small quantities might be sold to PCs until the group in question becomes unhappy with what the PCs are doing. Then the flow is cut off. Anything permanent is probably part of a significant NPCs possesions or the result of a major quid-pro-quo.
PCs of that level ought to be able to start crafting their own items. Even then sometimes (certainly not all the time) they'll have to choose between riding to the rescue or finishing a "special project."
Hope that helps,
-Eric Gorman
Let's not forget the Clinic for the Mentally Distressed in the city of Ergetus. The Nightmare Court can be a great campaign device in Nova Vassa. ;)
Hey Gonzoron! I think it's good that you're doing a campaign in Nova Vassa.
That's not me, it's Scipion, mine is actually pretty mobile, travelling through everything from Barovia up to Darkon, but hasn't been to NV yet. (although 2 of the PC's are from there originally.)
But what in the world is Nova Vassa all about?
It's kind of a hodge-podge, but the closest analog (outside of the cities, at least) in my mind is Tolkein's Rohan, which is kind of norse in influences. The language as of Gaz V is based on Danish, if I recall correctly. For the cities, it's closer to a Jack-the-ripper era London slum. (Perhaps inspired by Hyde's trips to the seedier areas of London in Jeckyl and Hyde).
For the cities, I think they are like shantytown. A big contrast between rich and poor.
And for Egertus, i will think about it when they will go here but in the moment they are at the total south of the core in the Chekiv duchy around Arbora.
And, in seeing your post, i get some idea:
It s now the time of the collect of the tax. Everyone want the max of penny to give them to Othmar to spare his wrath and the one of the lawgiver. A bandit name the red panther is interrupting the collect and ripping the money, at the displeasure of the duke Chekiv and the one of mayor Torina Pomaar. They have force the druid of the party to help them found the Red Panther in the shadowwood. (he was caught for sorcellery in Arbora and release at the condition he help found the red panther)
In Arbora, heretical priest are now claiming that Othmar and the church have usurp the power and that all the novaa vaasie nobles are now falling into corruption and forgetting their duty toward their people and toward the lawgiver. For them the great conjonction was a warning that the third and last judgement will come if people didn t right their sins.
And in the plain, Nightmare are seen with increasing frequency. Without forgetting a mysterious rider, report to be without head that is now roaming the southern Nova Vaasi. Killing and literally hacking bandits, tax collectors and Chekiv agents alike by night of heavy storm. The gold of the tax weren't even touch by others hands than those one of the cadavers and storms that become mysteriously more and more frequent...
For magic item, I will see what i can do about that, I will male them gain some little one and remind them that if they want more, the NPC and monster will have more and that this will not probably good for their own safety.
A noble or criminal with a network of connections can do far more damage than a sword.
Figures which attack from shadow and distance, with prepared escape routs make that fighter's 9 levels and 19 strength much less useful.
Mysteries cannot be overcome with fireballs.
Atmosphere is everything in Ravenloft. You can make something seem much more disturbing and threatening simply by your choice of words.
I have a party of 10th level charcters in my game and have never once had difficulty challenging them. The last major physical obsticle they overcame was a small horde of zombies. The zombies were nothing special, though they could burrow through mud at incredible speeds ... that was it. But give them a storm filled night in a drenched villiage, under poor lighting and they seemed quite the threat. Mind you, the players rarely ever saw the zombies themselves .. shapes in the mud, and filthy shadows will give their imaginations more to play with than shambling corpses.
Play with their perceptions and expectations.
Try something different to set up mood. If the pcs are too powerful to feel the mood of a place, give them a new angle from which to look. Half the game have the players portray 0 lvl npcs, the victims of this recent threat. Play up the horror and helplessness they are feeling, the mysterious and unconquerable nature of the terrors they face. If you need to, you can get them to take this seriously by informing them that good rp will result in generous xp rewards ... though hopefully they'll be good enough gamers not to need that. Then, half way through the night give them back their characters and play the same portion of the adventure over. This should give them a new appreciation for what they are dealing with ... as well as a new gaming experience. Don't use this same trick all the time, but consider alternate versions thereof and impliment them when the players are feeling overconfident or blase.
Do nothing directly. Gothic villians work from the shadows and strike when their victims are least prepared. While it might work in other settings, I highly advise against the "through dozens of encounters against them and wittle away their resources" approach. This is not the sort of foundation Ravenloft is built upon.
As for magic items. The idea of giving them fewer more powerful and more significant items is a good one. But once given, don't overlook the history .. use it to the players' benefit and detriment. What secrets lie in the item's past? Who might want it? Who might recognize it? What would someone who did recognize the item consider its appearance to mean in the hands of a pc?
As an alternative to items, you can also give out influence. Give the pcs contacts they can call upon, people who will help them, secrets that will open doors for them. The benefit of this approach is that it also gives you a number of plot hooks to work with ... contacts might call upon the pcs for aid, become corrupted, etc.
But, be careful not to be too heavy handed when utilizing the drawbacks of items or aquaintances ... an adventure or two is fine .. but making the devices a burden quickly reduces their usefulness and they players' appreciation. In Ravenloft you'll have enough curses to pull out so as not to need turn the party's only toys thoroughly against them.
Ravenloft can be done at high levels, but it is tricky. It may be best to talk to your players and explain what Ravenloft is and isn't in your view and have them make new lower-level characters. If they are attached to their 9th level ones, let them leave Ravenloft and go somewhere more magical.
Power given is power that can be taken away...thus the DM wields the double-edged sword.
What good is a Holy Avenger when its owner has a mangled limb?
How can a master thief lie undetected in shadows who is wrecked with a cold?
Ravenloft's beauty is the duality of its very existence, and as such, it is the best, and in my opinion the most blatant tool a DM has at their disposal. The levels of the player characters can more easily be overcome in such a world than a world of a different, less 'sentient' nature.
A method such as this:
http://dndadventure.com/dnda_dm_resources.html
(click on the 'Critical Hits Table' link)
...is one way of bypassing a character's level all together.
Think of such ways to challenge your players; as a DM it's your job.
While Gonzoron hasn't said it (my response isn't directed to the quote or its author, only triggered by it), Ravenloft, like any other RPG setting, shouldn't be limited to suggested role playing; this myth that Ravenloft can't support high character levels.
As to magic items, I personally am more inspired by the real world equivalences behind each domain (and thus restrictions), so I don't have anything of value to contribute other than this: masterwork items can be considered 'magical' to the ignorant masses, and perhaps they indeed were in our short history of being on this planet (Japanese sword makers Masamune and Muramasa, as examples of opposites), not to mention fantastical inventions created by those few inventors deemed "ahead of their time".
How would a PC be perceived who chucks a bomb in the dense, rotting forests of Sithicus?
...which brings me to the second beauty of Ravenloft: its diversity of the cultural levels of its domains.
The CL of weapons available to those brave few individuals who traverse the superstitions of the Mists, the PCs, can be the equivalent to magic items to, again, rooted people of an unintentionally ignorant nature.
I guess it all depends on your group's perception of the world in which we find Ravenloft, really.
Obviously, if you were to superimpose this possible solution to magic items in Ravenloft to your group's campaign, you'd have to adjust the DR often possessed by many of Ravenloft's more monstrous creatures.
And as to poisons and PC resistances...hogwash. The chemistry of their bodies generally doesn't change with experience to the point of complete immunity. And, for potential argument's sake, if somebody has never come into contact with a specific foreign substance (poisons especially), then how can they have built a resistance?
If you feel the need to poison a PC, and can fairly tie such an event into the plot of your story, then just make it happen. Poisons are, again generally, more powerful in heavier or more concentrated doses. And people with enough experience can usually both concoct and administer such a poison...;) :D
I hope this bit of 'abstract' thought triggers something, if not actual help.
Be very careful how you use this sort of tool, however. While the game system does seem to encourage this sort of heavy manipulation, it should never seem arbitrary to the characters. If a mangled limb is your desire, make it part of the story .. a curse from someone wronged, the venom of a dead snake, the repercusions of dabbling with something the character should not have, etc. If you simply take it upon yourself to cripple a pc with no reason, he/she will become resentful and their enjoyment in the game compromised. Remember, as well, that a fighter still has two arms .. so even this sort of treatment will not ruin him; nor should it! (The standard rule used to be -1 to hit I believe, though one could also feasibly reduce their number of attacks)
I use this sort of contrivance in a game only rarely ... know that it can be a campaign killer! I've had adventures entirely derailed by being too heavy handed .. depite the fact that this was encouraged in the written material. (I used a scenario similar to that in a published adventure, wherein the players are taken over by carionettes quite against their will .... the game died on the first session. Know your players and what they will accept.)
Last time I used this method, a pc had failed her dex check while running across treacherous ground. When she fell, I led her to understand that she'd sprained her ankle. Though I never said it outright, relying entirely on flavor text, it became fairly evident that the wound had reduced her movement rate ... which she'd need later when fleeing danger.
>>Ravenloft's beauty is the duality of its very existance, and as such, it is the best, and in my opinion the most blatant tool a DM has at their disposal. The levels of the player characters can more easily be overcome in such a world than a world of a different, less 'sentient' nature.<<
This is an amusing statement, to which I will have to agree. I have had fewer problems with high level pcs in Ravenloft than I have in any other setting.
>>And as to poisons and PC resistances...hogwash. The chemistry of their bodies generally doesn't change with experience to the point of complete immunity. And, for potential argument's sake, if somebody has never come into contact with a specific foreign substance (poisons especially), then how can they have built a resistance?<<
Okay, here you are really treading on game mechanics. The increased saves associated with levels seems to reflect the fact that pcs are healtheir, more robust figures than the typical man or woman. If you only raise saves that are utilized often, then almost no one is going to have a chance against breath weapon. On the other side of that, it would only be fair to make the inverse also true .. so saves made often would become better than others ... thus few high level pcs would ever fear magic.
(I do actually like the idea of basing an entire saving throw system on individual pc experience, but that isn't DnD)
>>If you feel the need to posion a PC, and can fairly tie such an event into the plot of your story, then just make it happen.<<
This, of course, is always true. If the plot balances upon a pc failing his save, then he must do so. If you feel you've the type of pcs who'd complain, have them roll a die at the begining of the night, though don't inform them what it is about. Later, when it comes up, inform the person that they got their save and failed .. if they continue to press (they had a good roll) you say something vague about modifiers. Of course, ideally, you shouldn't have to even explain yourself to the players ... but this isn't always the case.
Be very careful how you use this sort of tool, however. While the game system does seem to encourage this sort of heavy manipulation, it should never seem arbitrary to the characters. If a mangled limb is your desire, make it part of the story .. a curse from someone wronged, the venom of a dead snake, the repercusions of dabbling with something the character should not have, etc. If you simply take it upon yourself to cripple a pc with no reason, he/she will become resentful and their enjoyment in the game compromised.
Agreed. The Dungeon Master is and has to be a judicial sort of role: sometimes fair, sometimes foul.
Last time I used this method, a pc had failed her dex check while running across treacherous ground. When she fell, I led her to understand that she'd sprained her ankle. Though I never said it outright, relying entirely on flavor text, it became fairly evident that the wound had reduced her movement rate ... which she'd need later when fleeing danger.
And the player...did they object to this injury in an out of character capacity?
>>Ravenloft's beauty is the duality of its very existance, and as such, it is the best, and in my opinion the most blatant tool a DM has at their disposal. The levels of the player characters can more easily be overcome in such a world than a world of a different, less 'sentient' nature.<<
This is an amusing statement, to which I will have to agree. I have had fewer problems with high level pcs in Ravenloft than I have in any other setting.
Amusing?
Okay, here you are really treading on game mechanics. The increased saves associated with levels seems to reflect the fact that pcs are healtheir, more robust figures than the typical man or woman. If you only raise saves that are utilized often, then almost no one is going to have a chance against breath weapon. On the other side of that, it would only be fair to make the inverse also true .. so saves made often would become better than others ... thus few high level pcs would ever fear magic.
(I do actually like the idea of basing an entire saving throw system on individual pc experience, but that isn't DnD)
I have a tendency to see (or, perceive) and try to correct as best to my ability such flaws in the Dungeons and Dragons game.
That said, I think it silly to have a character build an immunity to substances or circumstances that are completely alien to the individual. Constitution is the character's general immunity, yes, but never should it be factored into special, or rare circumstances such as those we have discussed. Poisons, breath weapons, etc.
There should be an experience/encounter-based chart for each player character in this manner (a PC's personalized survival guide, so to speak, that grants varying bonuses to encounters previously survived, and unadjusted DCs to those situations unfamiliar to the PC), as it would not only help alleviate such problems as high level powers abuse (or, assumptions), but also attach a unique 'adventure hook', in the form of personalized strengths and weaknesses for each player character.
But then again, I'm a very idealistic gamer, and even I have yet to design such rules. :D
No, because they were able to see the action and consequences that led to said disability. That is all important in keeping players from denouncing the gms actions as arbitrary.
>>Amusing?<<
Amusing in that there are so few people who would agree. I see these "What do I do with high level players?" threads pop up all the time. Before third edition I was a constant presence on the mailing list and this topic came up every three months like clockwork.
>>But then again, I'm a very idealistic gamer, and even I have yet to design such rules.<<
Therein lies the problem. But some friends and I have been long working on our own system (for peronal use, it is too highly influenced by DnD to be marketable) and made many new rule mechanics .. perhaps we should look at this as an alternative to the basic saving throw chart system.