SAGA sorcerers and mystics for d20 - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

SAGA sorcerers and mystics for d20

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
caeruleus
Mar 01, 2005 16:08:06 Has anyone seen a d20 conversion of the SAGA rules' handling of magic (from the Dragonlance Fifth Age game) that works well in a d20 context?

In particular, I'd like a freeform magic system, that doesn't slow down the game too much every time you cast a spell.
#2
talinthas
Mar 01, 2005 16:12:10 heh. that's the holy grail right there. SAGA bogged down a lot when creating spells on the fly.

For starters, though, i recommend Mongoose's Chaos Magic book. it's a good place to build off of.
#3
raistlinrox
Mar 02, 2005 4:13:02 On the Nexus, there is an article from Rook that covers this, but I'm not sure how it works, I've never really read it, i just know it exists. You could also look at Dragonhelm's Paths of Magic article too.
#4
zombiegleemax
Mar 02, 2005 8:02:58 I ran SAGA on and off for a few years, including convention events with players very familiar with the system. The game always ground to a screeching halt while players created spells to do whatever they wanted. With the d20 System being a lot more complex and having many more factors contributing to one spell, I don't know how well a freeform system would do -- though I'm interested in some of the third-party products that try. I created spell creation rules for Sovereign Stone (Codex Mysterium), but those rules were specific to that world's magic system and still was a between-game activity.

Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
#5
cam_banks
Mar 02, 2005 8:23:00 Games which include freeform or "cast on the fly" magic rules tend to make them one of the central aspects of the game, and spend a lot of time on them. Ars Magica from Atlas Games is the benchmark for this kind of thing, and White Wolf's Mage: the Ascension borrows strongly from Ars with its Spheres and Rites. (A new incarnation of Mage is due out sometime later this year, under a new name - Mage: the Awakening). SAGA's entire system was freeform, not just its magic, so it wasn't particularly difficult for them to crib the rules together and make them work with combat, sneaking about, adventuring, interacting with NPCs and so forth. It's much harder to be as laissez-faire with d20.

Inevitably, games with freeform magic will usually go much faster if the magic-using player spends time between game sessions writing up sample spells and working out the costs. This is one of the only ways to make SAGA play faster - have a list of "frequently attempted spells" which the hero makes use of. I also think there's a mistaken impression that SAGA's magic rules allowed "any spell effect imagineable" given that, usually, you'd have either one or three Schools or Spheres (depending on your attribute code) and could only use magic that fell into those areas. Sure, having cryomancy is great, but that really just means "I can do a bunch of stuff involving cold and ice", turning your character into Krynn's version of Iceman.

Cheers,
Cam
#6
Dragonhelm
Mar 02, 2005 11:14:59
On the Nexus, there is an article from Rook that covers this, but I'm not sure how it works, I've never really read it, i just know it exists. You could also look at Dragonhelm's Paths of Magic article too.

You should also look at Shugi's alternate mystic spell list. He does a fantastic job of presenting some alternate rules for mystics.
#7
caeruleus
Mar 02, 2005 11:54:43 Of course, it occurred to me that it might be too much to ask for, but if I didn't ask, I'd never know. Thanks for the comments, however, they were helpful.

I looked up the Alternate Mystic Spell List, and the Paths of Magic. Both look cool. But where can I find this article by Rook?
#8
talinthas
Mar 02, 2005 12:02:35 i think the best part of the SAGA magic system wasnt necessarily the free form aspect so much as being able to combine your spheres in neato ways. Half the fun was in trying to figure out how to take Spectramancy and Geomancy and create a glowing rock =)
#9
Dragonhelm
Mar 02, 2005 12:14:59
I looked up the Alternate Mystic Spell List, and the Paths of Magic. Both look cool. But where can I find this article by Rook?

Here you go:

Dragonlance: The Age of Mortals (by Rooks)

I don't think the word "article" quite covers it... ;)
#10
caeruleus
Mar 02, 2005 13:40:58
Here you go:

Dragonlance: The Age of Mortals (by Rooks)

I don't think the word "article" quite covers it... ;)

Many thanks, Dragonhelm.

And yeah, I see why you say 'article' doesn't quite describe it.
#11
zombiegleemax
Mar 03, 2005 0:18:53 I've certainly tried many times to figure out a means of making SAGA style magic, and let me tell you it's not easy! As Jamie said there's a lot of factors to DnD spells that just aren't easily accounted for. I feel like the best system to emulate something like this would be modeled after the Epic Level Handbook spell seeds--a list of effects that you throw together.

As for the issue of game time slowing down, personally that never became an issue in my own games once the players got comfortable enough with the system. In fact, if you look at Malhavoc Press's "The Book of Iron Might" by Mike Mearls, he introduces a system for combat stunts which acts in a similar manner: there's baseline effects and other various modifiers to the stunts. He presents a list of common stunts for people to use, but the tools are there for folks to make their own stunts during downtime between sessions. What's more, there's even a crib-sheet of sorts online for folks who feel like making stunts on the fly. I feel that if one is adamant about using SAGA-style spell creation magic, this sort of approach is easily the best one can go for--of essentially having pre-existing effects that they string together.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 caeruleus Mar 01, 2005 16:08:06	Has anyone seen a d20 conversion of the SAGA rules' handling of magic (from the Dragonlance Fifth Age game) that works well in a d20 context? In particular, I'd like a freeform magic system, that doesn't slow down the game too much every time you cast a spell.
#2 talinthas Mar 01, 2005 16:12:10	heh. that's the holy grail right there. SAGA bogged down a lot when creating spells on the fly. For starters, though, i recommend Mongoose's Chaos Magic book. it's a good place to build off of.
#3 raistlinrox Mar 02, 2005 4:13:02	On the Nexus, there is an article from Rook that covers this, but I'm not sure how it works, I've never really read it, i just know it exists. You could also look at Dragonhelm's Paths of Magic article too.
#4 zombiegleemax Mar 02, 2005 8:02:58	I ran SAGA on and off for a few years, including convention events with players very familiar with the system. The game always ground to a screeching halt while players created spells to do whatever they wanted. With the d20 System being a lot more complex and having many more factors contributing to one spell, I don't know how well a freeform system would do -- though I'm interested in some of the third-party products that try. I created spell creation rules for Sovereign Stone (Codex Mysterium), but those rules were specific to that world's magic system and still was a between-game activity. Jamie Chambers Sovereign Press, Inc.
#5 cam_banks Mar 02, 2005 8:23:00	Games which include freeform or "cast on the fly" magic rules tend to make them one of the central aspects of the game, and spend a lot of time on them. Ars Magica from Atlas Games is the benchmark for this kind of thing, and White Wolf's Mage: the Ascension borrows strongly from Ars with its Spheres and Rites. (A new incarnation of Mage is due out sometime later this year, under a new name - Mage: the Awakening). SAGA's entire system was freeform, not just its magic, so it wasn't particularly difficult for them to crib the rules together and make them work with combat, sneaking about, adventuring, interacting with NPCs and so forth. It's much harder to be as laissez-faire with d20. Inevitably, games with freeform magic will usually go much faster if the magic-using player spends time between game sessions writing up sample spells and working out the costs. This is one of the only ways to make SAGA play faster - have a list of "frequently attempted spells" which the hero makes use of. I also think there's a mistaken impression that SAGA's magic rules allowed "any spell effect imagineable" given that, usually, you'd have either one or three Schools or Spheres (depending on your attribute code) and could only use magic that fell into those areas. Sure, having cryomancy is great, but that really just means "I can do a bunch of stuff involving cold and ice", turning your character into Krynn's version of Iceman. Cheers, Cam
#6 Dragonhelm Mar 02, 2005 11:14:59	On the Nexus, there is an article from Rook that covers this, but I'm not sure how it works, I've never really read it, i just know it exists. You could also look at Dragonhelm's Paths of Magic article too. You should also look at Shugi's alternate mystic spell list. He does a fantastic job of presenting some alternate rules for mystics.
#7 caeruleus Mar 02, 2005 11:54:43	Of course, it occurred to me that it might be too much to ask for, but if I didn't ask, I'd never know. Thanks for the comments, however, they were helpful. I looked up the Alternate Mystic Spell List, and the Paths of Magic. Both look cool. But where can I find this article by Rook?
#8 talinthas Mar 02, 2005 12:02:35	i think the best part of the SAGA magic system wasnt necessarily the free form aspect so much as being able to combine your spheres in neato ways. Half the fun was in trying to figure out how to take Spectramancy and Geomancy and create a glowing rock =)
#9 Dragonhelm Mar 02, 2005 12:14:59	I looked up the Alternate Mystic Spell List, and the Paths of Magic. Both look cool. But where can I find this article by Rook? Here you go: Dragonlance: The Age of Mortals (by Rooks) I don't think the word "article" quite covers it... ;)
#10 caeruleus Mar 02, 2005 13:40:58	Here you go: Dragonlance: The Age of Mortals (by Rooks) I don't think the word "article" quite covers it... ;) Many thanks, Dragonhelm. And yeah, I see why you say 'article' doesn't quite describe it.
#11 zombiegleemax Mar 03, 2005 0:18:53	I've certainly tried many times to figure out a means of making SAGA style magic, and let me tell you it's not easy! As Jamie said there's a lot of factors to DnD spells that just aren't easily accounted for. I feel like the best system to emulate something like this would be modeled after the Epic Level Handbook spell seeds--a list of effects that you throw together. As for the issue of game time slowing down, personally that never became an issue in my own games once the players got comfortable enough with the system. In fact, if you look at Malhavoc Press's "The Book of Iron Might" by Mike Mearls, he introduces a system for combat stunts which acts in a similar manner: there's baseline effects and other various modifiers to the stunts. He presents a list of common stunts for people to use, but the tools are there for folks to make their own stunts during downtime between sessions. What's more, there's even a crib-sheet of sorts online for folks who feel like making stunts on the fly. I feel that if one is adamant about using SAGA-style spell creation magic, this sort of approach is easily the best one can go for--of essentially having pre-existing effects that they string together.