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Bigby Alive or Dead?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
scoti_garbidis
Mar 03, 2005 9:17:31 Reading through the LGG i see where Bigby of Mitrik is alive and a current member of the Circle of Eight. In Treasures of Greyhawk there is an adventure where PC's can travel to Scant and venture into the deceased Bigby's home. My question is.... Is Bigby alive or dead... is he a clone of the past Bigby or a different Bigby and in what WOG products can i read the info for myself?

I guess that is more than one question but I am still trying to get everything Greyhawk into perspective and only been at it a couple years...

thanks ahead of time for everyone's help!
#2
crag
Mar 03, 2005 10:40:34 As I read it Bigby is alive, he was targeted for assassination by "red robed agents" instead of fighting bigby decided to flee Scant as the SB advanced (a sign of the skills of SB agents).

The sudden absence of of Bigby and his desire to lay low beforehand as he packed up his goods led to the rumor that he was dead, which he encourged, everyone believing he would defend his home, than he reappeared in mitrik.

Some people have no doubt lost respect for Bigby given his flight from Scant but given his power, no one mentions this out loud.
#3
cwslyclgh
Mar 03, 2005 11:34:30 actually I thought he was dead, but during the adventure in Greyhawk adventures you can find literaly a pound of bigby's magically preserved living flesh... which can be used to clone him... generaly when a time line is advenced the advancers of the time line assume that PC's succeed at the adventures that are out there... thus Bigby is a live again... he is a clone of the orginal.
#4
scoti_garbidis
Mar 03, 2005 13:37:34
actually I thought he was dead, but during the adventure in Greyhawk adventures you can find literaly a pound of bigby's magically preserved living flesh... which can be used to clone him... generaly when a time line is advenced the advancers of the time line assume that PC's succeed at the adventures that are out there... thus Bigby is a live again... he is a clone of the orginal.

I guess i should have assumed that he was alive due to the flesh but was curious what people thought. thanks for the information! Just been looking for a way to work my Mordenkainen GOL Miniature into my game... thought this might work but not sure the party is gonna want to go to Scant.. guess im gonna have to look elsewhere. Anyway, Thanks Again to both of you.
#5
zombiegleemax
Mar 03, 2005 22:06:08 I'm pretty sure that the current Bigby is a clone. First of all the entire Circle was killed in Vecna Lives, so even if he isn't a clone he has died at least once and been resurrected. This may not be common knowledge to the populace and therefore rumors of his death abound.

After the events of Rary the Traitor I wouldn't be surprised if each Circle member has a clone and a scroll of true resurrection hidden somewhere where their allies can find it.
#6
max_writer
Mar 04, 2005 8:27:39 I'm at work so don't have access to my library.

Wasn't getting Bigby back the goal of the adventure Return of the Eight? I thought he had been turned to a dretch by Iggwilv and trapped on Luna.

Or was that Tenser?
#7
cwslyclgh
Mar 04, 2005 10:46:04 that was Tenser
#8
zombiegleemax
Mar 04, 2005 14:05:05
Reading through the LGG i see where Bigby of Mitrik is alive and a current member of the Circle of Eight. In Treasures of Greyhawk there is an adventure where PC's can travel to Scant and venture into the deceased Bigby's home. My question is.... Is Bigby alive or dead... is he a clone of the past Bigby or a different Bigby and in what WOG products can i read the info for myself?

I guess that is more than one question but I am still trying to get everything Greyhawk into perspective and only been at it a couple years...

thanks ahead of time for everyone's help!

Here are are the references to Bigby that I've come across.

Bigby {Frazner}{Fraznier of Halmarn}[M10][M13][M18][3eM19][NPC]
AOE - 321,323,324
BC
CED - 256
COG:C# - 13
COG:FFF - 2,17,21-24
DOD - 35
DRG#37 - 11
DRG#82 - 57
DRG#178 - 17
DRG#185 - 58
DRG#191 - 67
DRG#241 - 80
DRG#249 - 93
DRG#268 - 70
DRG#289 - 28
DRG#290 - 108
DRG#291 - 98
DRG#294 - 95
DRG#299 - 18,100
DRG#302 - 99
DRG#AN2 - 99
FTAA - 15,43,79
FTAR#13
GA - 3,51-53,127
IVID
LGG - 38,47,130,156
LGJ#0 - 4,5,6,8,10,11
LGJ#1 - 29
LGJ#5 - 6
LOG - 5,13,46,47,89,105,106,108
ONW1-05 - 3,4
PGTG - 11,18,21,22,24,48
ROG - 40
RTO8 - 3,32,53,54,58,59,62
TAB - 3,6,7,19,20,25,60,63,71,110,114
TAB:AM - 1
TSB - 6
WG5 - 2,4,31
WGA4 - 9,13,14,84,93
WGR1 - 84
WGR2 - 1,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40
WGR3 - 7,8,11
WGR4 - 59
WGR5 - 5
#9
crag
Mar 04, 2005 21:12:47 Sorry scoti :embarrass

Everyone is right as written Bigby is presumed a clone

I was remember a debate, about the use of clones and if the anti-clone types could realisticly square canon and everything flowed together...

Personally I am not violently anything but if I have too choose, Anti-clone.

It seems too neat...

RP was about hard choices, if you were:
Priest: Raise Dead
Druid: Reincarnation
Mage: Lichdom

Philosophic difference in the view of magic, matter of trade offs, and set up some societial rivialry between the classes.

Finally instead of simply being medics, priests sooner or later had all classes coming too them for raise dead even the erudite mages.

Clones weaken the tension between the "magic classes", the mage had a serious temptation at the end of his life, does he turn to necromancy too stave off the end or endless research into longevity potions being much too proud to wheedle the smug priests for help.

This problem is at the heart of many of the mage villians of GH.
#10
argaud
Mar 05, 2005 15:05:43
Reading through the LGG i see where Bigby of Mitrik is alive and a current member of the Circle of Eight. In Treasures of Greyhawk there is an adventure where PC's can travel to Scant and venture into the deceased Bigby's home. My question is.... Is Bigby alive or dead... is he a clone of the past Bigby or a different Bigby and in what WOG products can i read the info for myself?

I guess that is more than one question but I am still trying to get everything Greyhawk into perspective and only been at it a couple years...

thanks ahead of time for everyone's help!

I remember that adventure and I am quite sure it took place in the time Bigby was dead due to Vecna’s machinations. Later on Mordenkainen cloned him (or maybe Bigby had taken precautions so he would be cloned). Current Bigby is a clone of the original, and that is also true of all the other surviving members of the Circle of Eight, including Rary.
#11
qstor
Mar 07, 2005 8:12:57
Current Bigby is a clone of the original, and that is also true of all the other surviving members of the Circle of Eight, including Rary.

I thought that was only Tenser? I'll have to check the Living Greyhawk Journal #0 when I go home.

Mike
#12
erik_mona
Mar 07, 2005 18:35:30 "Treasures of Greyhawk" assumes that Bigby is dead because, at the time, Bigby _was_ dead. Vecna wiped out the entire Circle of Eight (minus Mordenkainen) during a nearly unprescedented field operation in 581 CY. Only Mordenkainen (who wasn't there) survived, and the master of the Circle spent a great deal of time and resources reviving clones of his fallen comrades (yes, including Rary).

As LGJ#0 says, "this endeavor consumed time that otherwise might have seen Mordenkainen addressing reports of the Circle's allies in Stonefist and the Barbarian Lands. When those events spiraled into the first conflicts of the Greyhawk Wars, the Circle's clones remained undeveloped and half-aware. By the time the clones reached full maturation, the Circle of Eight had been forced to take a reactive stance to the tumultuous events unfolding before them."

Then, on the Day of Great Signing (583? 584? I can't remember off-hand), Rary betrayed the circle, killing Tenser and Otiluke and badly wounding (but not killing) Bigby. Learning from the Vecna experience, Rary and his cohort Lord Robilar tracked down the "genetic samples" of the slain Circle members, destroying this material and preventing them from returning to life.

However, as we learned in "Return of the Eight," Tenser had a clone hidden somewhere Rary would never think to look, on the moon of Luna (in fact, in one of Iggwilv's old bases there). The Circle again became complete with the addition of Theodain, Alhamazed, and Warnes Starcoat in 586.

Some of this is a bit torturous, and everyone can be forgiven for not really liking the clone elements, but that's the history as presented in the printed material to date.

--Erik Mona
www.superunicorn.com/erik
#13
zombiegleemax
Mar 09, 2005 6:15:14 Yeah, funny about all that cloning, and at such a convenient time too... :D

I should add that according to LG lore, Bigby lived just outside Scant in the port of Halmarn before the Wars, under the guise of Fraznier - a wealthy, but reclusive merchant. This house is the one presented in "Bigby's Modest Home" (on Greenleaf Avenue IIRC). LG Onnwal recently did a "Return to..." regional module set there.

Fraznier also had a tower overlooking the entrance to the Great Harbour of Scant and it was here that the Scarlet Brotherhood tried to assassinate him on the Night of Scarlet Knives, when they killed the szek of Onnwal and took Scant by storm and treachery. Bigby fled Onnwal and resettled himself in Mitrik thereafter.

At least one of Bigby's apprentices are known to remain in Onnwal - the enigmatic Celendrenn, rumoured to be Szek Jian's spymaster. Though there have been some rumoured sightings of the archmage in Onnwal, Bigby has no known plans to return to his former home.

P.
Former LG Onnwal guy
#14
zombiegleemax
Mar 09, 2005 21:20:11 Doesn't anyone read my posts? *sigh*

Like I said before and Erik reiterated, All the circle save Mordenkainen died in the adventure Vecna Lives!. I have a copy of it somwhere, but I just moved and I can't find all my gear yet. As soon as I do, I'll post particulars.
#15
Argon
Mar 09, 2005 21:33:47 In my Campaign it was Tenser and Otto who died for good no return. I kept Bigby alive stating he was able to survive . I am 10000000000000 % Anti-Clone. My version of the spell is the line which states if the clone or the caster become aware of the other they seek each other out until one or both are destroyed. So if a wizard casts the spell on himself he immediately becomes aware of the Clone and destroy's it.

Also remember that if a wizard is dieing and a friend of his casts clone that clone has only the memories and experiences from the time of the spell creation and still has the illnesses of the original. I also make it so that a clone has 1 point less of Constitution than the original so if a clone is cloned it's clone will have 2 less points of constitution than the original and one less than the previous clone preventing a long term solution to expanding ones life.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 scoti_garbidis Mar 03, 2005 9:17:31	Reading through the LGG i see where Bigby of Mitrik is alive and a current member of the Circle of Eight. In Treasures of Greyhawk there is an adventure where PC's can travel to Scant and venture into the deceased Bigby's home. My question is.... Is Bigby alive or dead... is he a clone of the past Bigby or a different Bigby and in what WOG products can i read the info for myself? I guess that is more than one question but I am still trying to get everything Greyhawk into perspective and only been at it a couple years... thanks ahead of time for everyone's help!
#2 crag Mar 03, 2005 10:40:34	As I read it Bigby is alive, he was targeted for assassination by "red robed agents" instead of fighting bigby decided to flee Scant as the SB advanced (a sign of the skills of SB agents). The sudden absence of of Bigby and his desire to lay low beforehand as he packed up his goods led to the rumor that he was dead, which he encourged, everyone believing he would defend his home, than he reappeared in mitrik. Some people have no doubt lost respect for Bigby given his flight from Scant but given his power, no one mentions this out loud.
#3 cwslyclgh Mar 03, 2005 11:34:30	actually I thought he was dead, but during the adventure in Greyhawk adventures you can find literaly a pound of bigby's magically preserved living flesh... which can be used to clone him... generaly when a time line is advenced the advancers of the time line assume that PC's succeed at the adventures that are out there... thus Bigby is a live again... he is a clone of the orginal.
#4 scoti_garbidis Mar 03, 2005 13:37:34	actually I thought he was dead, but during the adventure in Greyhawk adventures you can find literaly a pound of bigby's magically preserved living flesh... which can be used to clone him... generaly when a time line is advenced the advancers of the time line assume that PC's succeed at the adventures that are out there... thus Bigby is a live again... he is a clone of the orginal. I guess i should have assumed that he was alive due to the flesh but was curious what people thought. thanks for the information! Just been looking for a way to work my Mordenkainen GOL Miniature into my game... thought this might work but not sure the party is gonna want to go to Scant.. guess im gonna have to look elsewhere. Anyway, Thanks Again to both of you.
#5 zombiegleemax Mar 03, 2005 22:06:08	I'm pretty sure that the current Bigby is a clone. First of all the entire Circle was killed in Vecna Lives, so even if he isn't a clone he has died at least once and been resurrected. This may not be common knowledge to the populace and therefore rumors of his death abound. After the events of Rary the Traitor I wouldn't be surprised if each Circle member has a clone and a scroll of true resurrection hidden somewhere where their allies can find it.
#6 max_writer Mar 04, 2005 8:27:39	I'm at work so don't have access to my library. Wasn't getting Bigby back the goal of the adventure Return of the Eight? I thought he had been turned to a dretch by Iggwilv and trapped on Luna. Or was that Tenser?
#7 cwslyclgh Mar 04, 2005 10:46:04	that was Tenser
#8 zombiegleemax Mar 04, 2005 14:05:05	Reading through the LGG i see where Bigby of Mitrik is alive and a current member of the Circle of Eight. In Treasures of Greyhawk there is an adventure where PC's can travel to Scant and venture into the deceased Bigby's home. My question is.... Is Bigby alive or dead... is he a clone of the past Bigby or a different Bigby and in what WOG products can i read the info for myself? I guess that is more than one question but I am still trying to get everything Greyhawk into perspective and only been at it a couple years... thanks ahead of time for everyone's help! Here are are the references to Bigby that I've come across. Bigby {Frazner}{Fraznier of Halmarn}[M10][M13][M18][3eM19][NPC] AOE - 321,323,324 BC CED - 256 COG:C# - 13 COG:FFF - 2,17,21-24 DOD - 35 DRG#37 - 11 DRG#82 - 57 DRG#178 - 17 DRG#185 - 58 DRG#191 - 67 DRG#241 - 80 DRG#249 - 93 DRG#268 - 70 DRG#289 - 28 DRG#290 - 108 DRG#291 - 98 DRG#294 - 95 DRG#299 - 18,100 DRG#302 - 99 DRG#AN2 - 99 FTAA - 15,43,79 FTAR#13 GA - 3,51-53,127 IVID LGG - 38,47,130,156 LGJ#0 - 4,5,6,8,10,11 LGJ#1 - 29 LGJ#5 - 6 LOG - 5,13,46,47,89,105,106,108 ONW1-05 - 3,4 PGTG - 11,18,21,22,24,48 ROG - 40 RTO8 - 3,32,53,54,58,59,62 TAB - 3,6,7,19,20,25,60,63,71,110,114 TAB:AM - 1 TSB - 6 WG5 - 2,4,31 WGA4 - 9,13,14,84,93 WGR1 - 84 WGR2 - 1,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40 WGR3 - 7,8,11 WGR4 - 59 WGR5 - 5
#9 crag Mar 04, 2005 21:12:47	Sorry scoti :embarrass Everyone is right as written Bigby is presumed a clone I was remember a debate, about the use of clones and if the anti-clone types could realisticly square canon and everything flowed together... Personally I am not violently anything but if I have too choose, Anti-clone. It seems too neat... RP was about hard choices, if you were: Priest: Raise Dead Druid: Reincarnation Mage: Lichdom Philosophic difference in the view of magic, matter of trade offs, and set up some societial rivialry between the classes. Finally instead of simply being medics, priests sooner or later had all classes coming too them for raise dead even the erudite mages. Clones weaken the tension between the "magic classes", the mage had a serious temptation at the end of his life, does he turn to necromancy too stave off the end or endless research into longevity potions being much too proud to wheedle the smug priests for help. This problem is at the heart of many of the mage villians of GH.
#10 argaud Mar 05, 2005 15:05:43	Reading through the LGG i see where Bigby of Mitrik is alive and a current member of the Circle of Eight. In Treasures of Greyhawk there is an adventure where PC's can travel to Scant and venture into the deceased Bigby's home. My question is.... Is Bigby alive or dead... is he a clone of the past Bigby or a different Bigby and in what WOG products can i read the info for myself? I guess that is more than one question but I am still trying to get everything Greyhawk into perspective and only been at it a couple years... thanks ahead of time for everyone's help! I remember that adventure and I am quite sure it took place in the time Bigby was dead due to Vecna’s machinations. Later on Mordenkainen cloned him (or maybe Bigby had taken precautions so he would be cloned). Current Bigby is a clone of the original, and that is also true of all the other surviving members of the Circle of Eight, including Rary.
#11 qstor Mar 07, 2005 8:12:57	Current Bigby is a clone of the original, and that is also true of all the other surviving members of the Circle of Eight, including Rary. I thought that was only Tenser? I'll have to check the Living Greyhawk Journal #0 when I go home. Mike
#12 erik_mona Mar 07, 2005 18:35:30	"Treasures of Greyhawk" assumes that Bigby is dead because, at the time, Bigby _was_ dead. Vecna wiped out the entire Circle of Eight (minus Mordenkainen) during a nearly unprescedented field operation in 581 CY. Only Mordenkainen (who wasn't there) survived, and the master of the Circle spent a great deal of time and resources reviving clones of his fallen comrades (yes, including Rary). As LGJ#0 says, "this endeavor consumed time that otherwise might have seen Mordenkainen addressing reports of the Circle's allies in Stonefist and the Barbarian Lands. When those events spiraled into the first conflicts of the Greyhawk Wars, the Circle's clones remained undeveloped and half-aware. By the time the clones reached full maturation, the Circle of Eight had been forced to take a reactive stance to the tumultuous events unfolding before them." Then, on the Day of Great Signing (583? 584? I can't remember off-hand), Rary betrayed the circle, killing Tenser and Otiluke and badly wounding (but not killing) Bigby. Learning from the Vecna experience, Rary and his cohort Lord Robilar tracked down the "genetic samples" of the slain Circle members, destroying this material and preventing them from returning to life. However, as we learned in "Return of the Eight," Tenser had a clone hidden somewhere Rary would never think to look, on the moon of Luna (in fact, in one of Iggwilv's old bases there). The Circle again became complete with the addition of Theodain, Alhamazed, and Warnes Starcoat in 586. Some of this is a bit torturous, and everyone can be forgiven for not really liking the clone elements, but that's the history as presented in the printed material to date. --Erik Mona www.superunicorn.com/erik
#13 zombiegleemax Mar 09, 2005 6:15:14	Yeah, funny about all that cloning, and at such a convenient time too... :D I should add that according to LG lore, Bigby lived just outside Scant in the port of Halmarn before the Wars, under the guise of Fraznier - a wealthy, but reclusive merchant. This house is the one presented in "Bigby's Modest Home" (on Greenleaf Avenue IIRC). LG Onnwal recently did a "Return to..." regional module set there. Fraznier also had a tower overlooking the entrance to the Great Harbour of Scant and it was here that the Scarlet Brotherhood tried to assassinate him on the Night of Scarlet Knives, when they killed the szek of Onnwal and took Scant by storm and treachery. Bigby fled Onnwal and resettled himself in Mitrik thereafter. At least one of Bigby's apprentices are known to remain in Onnwal - the enigmatic Celendrenn, rumoured to be Szek Jian's spymaster. Though there have been some rumoured sightings of the archmage in Onnwal, Bigby has no known plans to return to his former home. P. Former LG Onnwal guy
#14 zombiegleemax Mar 09, 2005 21:20:11	Doesn't anyone read my posts? sigh Like I said before and Erik reiterated, All the circle save Mordenkainen died in the adventure Vecna Lives!. I have a copy of it somwhere, but I just moved and I can't find all my gear yet. As soon as I do, I'll post particulars.
#15 Argon Mar 09, 2005 21:33:47	In my Campaign it was Tenser and Otto who died for good no return. I kept Bigby alive stating he was able to survive . I am 10000000000000 % Anti-Clone. My version of the spell is the line which states if the clone or the caster become aware of the other they seek each other out until one or both are destroyed. So if a wizard casts the spell on himself he immediately becomes aware of the Clone and destroy's it. Also remember that if a wizard is dieing and a friend of his casts clone that clone has only the memories and experiences from the time of the spell creation and still has the illnesses of the original. I also make it so that a clone has 1 point less of Constitution than the original so if a clone is cloned it's clone will have 2 less points of constitution than the original and one less than the previous clone preventing a long term solution to expanding ones life.