Anyway, I'll start with the positive to make sure it gets out there.
1) This novel makes it clear that the problems in the knighthood are caused by a crisis of leadership in the knighthood. I'm still worried about the ideological shift that the 5th Age team was pushing (due to the actions of Jaymes, the man who would be king). However I don't have to blame that on the revised measure, and I can accept it. Frankly, the way things are portrayed, it makes me think that perhaps letting the commoners into the knighthood is to blame for its current woes. Instead of aristocrats who have trained in war from birth, you instead have merchant nobles who know nothing of war being put in key positions because they are good at exchanging monetary or political favours for it.
2) We finally get to see some real knights. Marckus, Powell, Dayr, and Dene are the ones I am specifically talking about. Some definate faults, but these are the first knights I have seen in a long time who act as if honour, discipline, fraternity, and obedience matter.
3) Ankhar. Favourite villain of the post-WoS era hands down. Why do I like him so much? He's damned competant. He picks his most intelligent and articulate goblins to be the wolf-riding scouts. He treats his subchieftains with respect and recognizes their contributions and thus ensures their loyalty. He is brave in battle, and he is enough of a student of human nature that he can trick and trap them on the battlefield. He is a perfect example of how CE can be charismatically effective.
The Bad:
1) So let me get this straight... the perfect king of Solamnia is the guy who robs a temple of Shinare and murders their priest, tells Coryn that people dying are "not his problem" and who "follows the Measure his own way?" Ouch. Just Ouch. I mean, even if he isn't the murderer of Lord Lorimar, he still is a murderer.
2) I think about 1,500 Solamnic knights died in this book. I blame not having numbers for how many Solamnic Knights there actually are. This allows the Knights of Solamnia and the Knights of Nereka both serve the role of the Japanese Defense Force in anime. When you want to show how big and bad your new villain/monster is, you have them destroy a 1,000 Solamnic Knights or Nerekan Knights.
The Confusing:
1) Who in the heck are these people I'm reading about? I don't see Liam Ehrling, the knights mentioned as political figures in the DLCS or AoM, or any one else I should recognize as having a role to play. Appearantly Lorimar was the heart and soul of knighthood... whoever the hell he was.
2) Closely related to #2, what the hell is the structure of the Knighthood these days? Are the Knights of the Sword a clerical order anymore? It seems that it is just three groups of warriors under three dukes who pay homage to the Lord Mayor of Palanthas. I've said it before when I first learned Doug Niles was going to be penning this trilogy. He is a good world builder, but Doug Niles isn't a good team player anymore.
3) Why the sudden shift in beginning of the book to completely ignore what is in AoM? I thought Solanthus was ruled by a council of merchants. Why the decision to simply run roughshod over that? Couldn't the Solanthian's at least come begging to the Knights when the horde showed up? At least it would have added to the story.
4) What is the business with the prophecy? Who made it? Why do people accept it and expect it's fullfillment? This is never answered, and sounds exactly like the hoary plot device it is. At least Christopher Pierson answered these questions in his books which involved a man prophesied to rule.
5) Gunpowder is back? Okay, but why is it a super weapon when the hero is dragging around the Head of the White Robes? I mean, Coryn could have destroyed that bridge with any number of relatively low level spells. How am I supposed to be impressed with Gunpowder when just a couple pages before, there was a high ranking Knight of the Thorn casting meteor swarm?
Oh well, I just hope somebody realizes that gunpowder doesn't immediately lead to guns. It's not just figuring out that you need to mix charcoal, sulfur, and saltpeter. You also have to mix them in the right quantities, you need to clump the mixture together in just the right way, you have to have a knowledge of the physics of expanding gasses, and the metallurgy to create small delicate parts which also involves a blast furnace.
Anyway, I'm going to take a wait and see attitude to how this all turns out. If we can twist Doug Niles' arm a bit to follow the game books a little more, this could turn out to be a very good thing.
I'm assuming that he passed away shortly after the War of Souls and that's when things began to fall apart.
My favorite part thus far has been when the hero and the dwarf fight the half-ogre and his draconian thugs, even if the kapaks are painting themselves black now. ;)
. It used to be before I really gamed much, I read the novels to kind of supplement the fatc I never got to play. Now that I play on a regular basis, I end up hating a lot of the novels i read because the people and organizations arent written how *I* think they should be. Its pretty egocentric, I know, but its just becoming more and more frustrating.
This was the one trilogy I kept hoping would have a fatal problem or mix up and be delayed for a long long time just because I knew things wouldnt come out how I would want them. And as I stated in one of the other threads, I *knew* that the so called leader would have some heavy problems that just dont make sense. A murderer? Eh...
Glad to see there are "true knights" in the book. I dont mind flaws one bit..everyone has them. I just want the disciplined knight, etc. Glad to know at least theres a little bit.
Seriously.. its just come down to the authors sound like they dont read anything about the regions and/or organizations they write about. That is very very annoying.. if you game. If you just read the novels, I guess it wouldnt affect... much. I dunno.. seriously I'm not even sure if I want to pick up the book.. I'm actually worried I would get physically mad... how sad is that :embarrass
heh it happens..oh well.. if I read it, I'll post my questions/thoughts..
I really dont have a lot to say on the subject just because I have yet to read the book. I'm actually at a critical time where I'm not even sure if I want to read anymore Dragonlance novels
Well I read them to get info for gaming. If the novels aren't making for a good gaming setting... *shrugs* why read them right? The flip side is if the gaming books are following the novels, then they won't make a good gaming setting either.
This was the one trilogy I kept hoping would have a fatal problem or mix up and be delayed for a long long time just because I knew things wouldnt come out how I would want them. And as I stated in one of the other threads, I *knew* that the so called leader would have some heavy problems that just dont make sense. A murderer? Eh...
Yep, pages 55-57. He decides that since the knights give donations this gives him the right to robs the temple, a priest retaliates with magic, Jaymes puts a crossbow bolt in the priest's chest. I think it is to show us how gritty and ruthless he is, so we'll think he's kewl.
There isn't anything else that this character does that is particularly bad. He had a following out with the KoS after a conspiracy murdered his lord, and went Ronin to pursue vengence. Fine... he can rediscover his love for the knighthood in subsequent books after he cleans house. However, there is no justification for remorselessly murdering a neutral priest. In a throwaway scene that doesn't go anywhere in relation to the rest of the plot.
I dunno.. seriously I'm not even sure if I want to pick up the book.. I'm actually worried I would get physically mad... how sad is that :embarrass
There will be a couple things that tick you off, but a couple things you like. Anyway, this novel doesn't resolve anything about what the political situation in Solamnia is like (and in fact adds more confusion) so you may want to see where this is all going before you pick up the first book. Read for pleasure after all, and if there is no pleasure, why bother?
But now I will give it a go. Unfortunatly I have to wait a couple of weeks to get it, but what the heck
There isn't anything else that this character does that is particularly bad. He had a following out with the KoS after a conspiracy murdered his lord, and went Ronin to pursue vengence. Fine... he can rediscover his love for the knighthood in subsequent books after he cleans house. However, there is no justification for remorselessly murdering a neutral priest. In a throwaway scene that doesn't go anywhere in relation to the rest of the plot.
I won't repeat everything I said here.
But, how many knights did he kill for the simple fact they were in his way?
He also wasn't questing for revenge, but for Smokepowder. (at least at start)
He as good as murdered Duke of Solanthus, after finding out that he WASN'T Guilty.
Something that will be game related though:
Paladine fell from the heavans, so Mishakel has become important... oh yeah, and now Shinare is a patron of the Knights of Solamnia. No word why Habbakuk is out, but apparently the Knights needed coin. At least KiriJolith is still around, if totally inactive and useless.
I haven't read the book fully thus far, but I will say that the Liam Ehrling thing has me confused as well.
I'm assuming that he passed away shortly after the War of Souls and that's when things began to fall apart.
Well, Liam Ehrling was ignored for WoS as well, and we never got an answer to where he was or what happened to him.
*grumble*
So I take it that King of solamnia is a man who is interested in not following the "Outdated" measure? Out of curiousity, was their any attempt to portray the Measure as something that could be useful and good?
They refered to the Oath and Measure in the abstract. There was no real reference to the Measure as an actual piece of something in existence. (IMO)
The Oath is easy, My Honor is my Life. The Measure was treated the same though, as some nebulous "phrase" or "feeling" to aspire to. I never got the feeling the Measure was a codified set of actions and behaviour.
My player were too whiny during Key of Destiny, so I didn't continue it. A couple of them are very prejudiced against Dragonlance because of bad players in previous games. So, I won't have to worry about what the Knights have become.
My player were too whiny during Key of Destiny, so I didn't continue it. A couple of them are very prejudiced against Dragonlance because of bad players in previous games. So, I won't have to worry about what the Knights have become.
They wouldn't have to anyway since Key of Destiny begins around 6 months post-War of Souls, and Lord of the Rose starts three years afterwards.
They wouldn't have to anyway since Key of Destiny begins around 6 months post-War of Souls, and Lord of the Rose starts three years afterwards.
None of the events of the Solamnia trilogy are factored into the Age of Mortals series of modules, for this reason, except in very basic terms. They shouldn't have much at all to do with each other. Price of Courage will probably end up around a year after the War of Souls ended.
Cheers,
Cam
But anyways, more of that later when I am actually done. It won't take me long, and then probably tommorrow night I'll post my opinion.
Right now I'm actually not liking this book more than the Linsha trilogy, and that is just downright amazing. Maybe it will get a little better.. who knows. You say you'll withhold your judgement until its done? Thats fair I guess but remember, if this book sucks and is horrible, but the other two are great.. that gives us a 66%, which is still a D in school. If you give the first book even a smattering of credit, that would make it somewhere in the low C grade, as long as the other two were perfect...
I'm hoping my initial reaction doesnt hold true through the whole thing.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/dl/lordrosecp
I'm not too picky about a corrupt king of Solamnia who comes to power. I'm just annoyed about any attempt to turn the ideals of the Knights of Solamnia into either:
1) Stodgy, outdated idiots who should get out of the way of kewler, edgier, anti-heroes...
2) kewler, edgier, anti-heroes.
So if there is a ruthless and evil man like Jaymes Markham who is going to be King, and an honourable knighthood like Solamnia representing the pure ideals of goodness... I see a wealth of future storylines. This either as the knights who are forced to fight him, or the knights who are pledged to serve him, or both. I require though, to make me happy.
1) Game products that don't forget that he is a murderer and pretty scummy overall, and present him that way.
2) That the knighthood survives him with their ideals intact.
3) That Jaymes Markham suffers some reprecussions for his actions.
Maybe redemption and responibilty will be part of Markham's journey. "The Light redeem it's own," and all that.
I guess we'll find out eventually.
I guess an autherian like "king-to-be" would have been as cliche' as the mysterious anti-hero "sets-things-strait" plot.
Maybe redemption and responibilty will be part of Markham's journey. "The Light redeem it's own," and all that.
I guess we'll find out eventually.
I suppose being only the first book in a trilogy, we might have been expecting something a tad too optimistic. Of course, Solamnia is a Republic naturally so I just wish there'd be some reference to why they are abandoning the principles of democracy.
The Solamnic nation is feudal society where the Knights of Solamnia and their beliefs are the unifying force that keeps that the society together.
Solamnia seems like a across between the Germanic states and city-states of ancient Greece.
Some freedoms aside, Solamnia has little in common with a republic like say the United States, a true democracy like Switzerland, or even a Constitutional Monarchy like the United Kingdom.
Nor has it ever been an Empire (like Ergoth, Rome, or even Istar) as Niles seems to suggest it was at one time.
Also "The Legend of Huma" (I believe) showed the disgust and outrage that Sir Huma Dragonbane felt when he heard that Knights of Solamnia were taking serfs. The feudal society depends on serfdom at the bottom and a nation of Freemen is impossible to maintain it.
Instead, if I mean "Republic", it seems that the Grandmaster is ruler of Solamnia and is chosen from the internal ranks of the Knights. While admittedly nothing like the United States, it has something in common with Rome (or perhaps the Vatican/Papal States is a better choice)
The fact that there was a King in Solamnia took me by surprise, because there was never any line of kings mentioned in any previous books or game products, and seemed to contradict "Bertrem's Guide to the 5th Age".
What I'm now confused about is when Solanthus, Thelgaard, and Caergoth suddenly got themselves Dukes. It seemed very strange to me, and something very harshly imposed on the setting rather than flowing naturally from it.
So I guess we have to wait until Doug Niles is done with Solamnia to find out what it actually is/was/will be. Kinda distressing but not entirely unexpected from that author.
Well, a republic is not a democracy (well at least not always). After the WotL it was essentially ruled by many powerful men in the city states of Solanthus, Thelgaard, Palanthas, et all.
The fact that there was a King in Solamnia took me by surprise, because there was never any line of kings mentioned in any previous books or game products, and seemed to contradict "Bertrem's Guide to the 5th Age".
What I'm now confused about is when Solanthus, Thelgaard, and Caergoth suddenly got themselves Dukes. It seemed very strange to me, and something very harshly imposed on the setting rather than flowing naturally from it.
So I guess we have to wait until Doug Niles is done with Solamnia to find out what it actually is/was/will be. Kinda distressing but not entirely unexpected from that author.
While, unless Sovereign Press is interested in me as a writer, this is unofficial. Still I think its a good 'patch' is the idea that Solamnia has always had a pseudo-nobility that has produced families that continually reinforced the Knighthood with its bloodlines members.
The Knighthood was theoretically open to all freeborn citizens of Solamnia but many territories were hereditarily owned by knightly members that passed down onto their kinsmen and often held large numbers of individuals as tenants.
Other territories were governed by rulers that were appointed by the Knighthood but, unless there was reason to, were wont to pass their stewardship down to their children. Many of these 'family holdings' started to be treated like kingdoms or dukedoms in reality if not name. I liken it to the stewardship of Gondor, that is a Kingdom in anything but name.
Post the War of Chaos, the Knighthood was under the reign of the Dark Knights and Skie but the families persisted and began using titles to refer to themselves in order to establish their 'hereditary claim' to certain lands/priviledges from the Knighthood. When the dust settled, Solamnia had a defined noble structure.
I wouldn't be surprised if this was cyclical to some extent. The Solamnics tempted to act like Kings and noblemen ala Ergoth and "other nations" (though Krynn is suspiciously lacking in Kings honestly) but eventually reforming before the degeneration starts again.
Well, a republic is not a democracy (well at least not always). After the WotL it was essentially ruled by many powerful men in the city states of Solanthus, Thelgaard, Palanthas, et all.
The fact that there was a King in Solamnia took me by surprise, because there was never any line of kings mentioned in any previous books or game products, and seemed to contradict "Bertrem's Guide to the 5th Age".
What I'm now confused about is when Solanthus, Thelgaard, and Caergoth suddenly got themselves Dukes. It seemed very strange to me, and something very harshly imposed on the setting rather than flowing naturally from it.
So I guess we have to wait until Doug Niles is done with Solamnia to find out what it actually is/was/will be. Kinda distressing but not entirely unexpected from that author.
The closest thing Solamnia ever had to a king was Vinas Solamnus. Thats all I know anyway.
As for the "Dukes," just remember that there is also a nobility class in Solamnia, many of whom are, or at one time Knights themselves or from the merchant guilds. The title duke may have been created to give those knights more "authority" in their areas of reponsiblity (though how a "duke" has a "princess" for a daughter is......well comfusing).
What gets me is this: Whatever happeaned to Kalaman, you know that forgotten city thats barly been mentioned anywhere. I think that city has been very neglected of late....and....I'm getting of topic.
(though how a "duke" has a "princess" for a daughter is......well comfusing).
Maybe her mother was a Princess or Queen herself. The Duke might have been King-Consort
While, unless Sovereign Press is interested in me as a writer, this is unofficial. Still I think its a good 'patch' is the idea that Solamnia has always had a pseudo-nobility that has produced families that continually reinforced the Knighthood with its bloodlines members.
The Knighthood was theoretically open to all freeborn citizens of Solamnia but many territories were hereditarily owned by knightly members that passed down onto their kinsmen and often held large numbers of individuals as tenants.
These two points are relatively uncontroversial in fan circles, though of course the Knights of the Rose were only open to "nobility". I had made a guess that the nobles of Solamnia were of two types... the merchant nobles of the city-states, and the men of "good family" who would be listed as such in the measure and hold heriditary titles on behalf of the knighthood (ie. Castle Di Caela).
It is appearantly much more naked than that, with the nobles holding title over lands themselves (though there are no serfs). So there are apparently noble lands. The term "Duke" has never been used to describe Solamnic nobility however, and certainly the city-states were (up to now at least) ruled by senates.
Other territories were governed by rulers that were appointed by the Knighthood but, unless there was reason to, were wont to pass their stewardship down to their children. Many of these 'family holdings' started to be treated like kingdoms or dukedoms in reality if not name. I liken it to the stewardship of Gondor, that is a Kingdom in anything but name.
Appearantly Tarsis and Xak Tsaroth were client states in this way, and some have suggested Blodeheim and other territories.
Post the War of Chaos, the Knighthood was under the reign of the Dark Knights and Skie but the families persisted and began using titles to refer to themselves in order to establish their 'hereditary claim' to certain lands/priviledges from the Knighthood. When the dust settled, Solamnia had a defined noble structure.
That would fix quite a bit, if the term "Duke" was a new invention by some Solamnic Nobles who seized control of these city-states. Though if I was a merchant noble, I'd be very angry. They seized power away from them, only to incompetantly defend those cities against a goblin horde.
I wouldn't be surprised if this was cyclical to some extent. The Solamnics tempted to act like Kings and noblemen ala Ergoth and "other nations" (though Krynn is suspiciously lacking in Kings honestly) but eventually reforming before the degeneration starts again.
Well, I've been told that Vinas Solamnus founded the dynasty of Kings that ruled Solamnia. News to me too. ;)
These two points are relatively uncontroversial in fan circles, though of course the Knights of the Rose were only open to "nobility". I had made a guess that the nobles of Solamnia were of two types... the merchant nobles of the city-states, and the men of "good family" who would be listed as such in the measure and hold heriditary titles on behalf of the knighthood (ie. Castle Di Caela).
I'd stick a reasonable amount of overlay between these two groups as always. The Solamnic nobility was somewhat lacking in truly great heroes since the time of Huma and thus merchants have always crept in the ranks of the families of the knights. It's a pattern that has been repeated throughout history.
It is appearantly much more naked than that, with the nobles holding title over lands themselves (though there are no serfs). So there are apparently noble lands. The term "Duke" has never been used to describe Solamnic nobility however, and certainly the city-states were (up to now at least) ruled by senates.
We don't necessarily have to be contradictory here either. For every city-state, there's vast amounts of townships and villages presumably. The stories of Solamnic keeps and estates have never been disguised in the stories of Dragonlance. Cities could very well be ruled by Senates while the surrounding countryside is ruled by 'Dukes' and noblemen appointed by the Knighthood.
After all, London never had a Duke but York did. One was also clearly more important.
That would fix quite a bit, if the term "Duke" was a new invention by some Solamnic Nobles who seized control of these city-states. Though if I was a merchant noble, I'd be very angry. They seized power away from them, only to incompetantly defend those cities against a goblin horde.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if this were the case and certainly this is how it went down in my games. The implication is in the opening chapter available for download for free anyway. The cities were purged of collaborators with the Dark Knights, its almost certain that any Merchants and Senators that retained power would be collaborators and that means ripping the entire government down.
Well, I've been told that Vinas Solamnus founded the dynasty of Kings that ruled Solamnia. News to me too. ;)
We've had "holy bloodlines" before in these stories. I honestly might think that Vinus Solamnus could having the title of King fostered on his line and frankly Grandmasters having the name scribbled on their tombstones since almost certainly every Knight of the Rose WOULD be a descendent of Vinus.
Its also possible a powerless titular family held the title as well.
What I'm now confused about is when Solanthus, Thelgaard, and Caergoth suddenly got themselves Dukes. It seemed very strange to me, and something very harshly imposed on the setting rather than flowing naturally from it.
What seemed odd to me was that they kept refereing to Duke Solanthus and such. I can grant that they created a title of Duke and that the knighthood guy in charge earned that title by Niles-Fiat, but to refer to them as their city seemed to insinuate some familial connection.
i actually enjoyed that the folks were referred to as Solanthus, Caergoth, etc. It gave the story more of a renaissance feel to it, and was a nice touch.
If you're the Duke of a place, or any kind of titled noble, you're going to get referred to by that place's name. I think it's obvious though that the three Dukes were installed in those places and granted those titles (or took them), rather than inheriting anything. Solanthus, Caergoth and Thelgaard probably never had dukes before the reclamation of Solamnia; it seems as if Niles is using the title much like it was used in Arthurian romance or the middle ages, wherein kings would have dukes that held conquered or sovereign territory and were military leaders (dux bellorum). Thus, it's suitable that Crawford et al. would have these titles granted to them by the Lord Regent.
Solamnia is getting a very Hundred Years War sort of feel to it, which no doubt is the point (given the inevitable arrival of bombards and cannons if Markham gets his act together) but it is not the same Solamnia it used to be, by any means. The three Orders are behaving very much like individual knightly orders from the Crusades, sharing only the common bond of national identity. Not sure at this point if the knights of the Sword or the Rose bear any special qualifiable differences from the knights of the Crown, but perhaps that too will be resolved in the later books.
Cheers,
Cam
it seems as if Niles is using the title much like it was used in Arthurian romance or the middle ages, wherein kings would have dukes that held conquered or sovereign territory and were military leaders (dux bellorum). Thus, it's suitable that Crawford et al. would have these titles granted to them by the Lord Regent.
So the question is then whether there has traditionally been an office of Duke for these three cities, which was left vacant during republican rule... or whether these offices were newly created and given to the war leaders of these cities (post WoS) which promptly seized power. Given the fact that they are refered to ceremonially by the names of the cities themselves, the former seems more likely.
I'm also rather concerned about the etemology of "Duke". It is, as Cam pointed out, a Latin term of the late roman empire in which someone occupied a region on behalf of the empire as war leader. However, it seems that this wasn't a term used in Ergoth ("Warden" being the equivelant in Tonya Cook and Paul B. Thompson's books). Given that Christopher Pierson went with pseudo-latin for Istarian speech, perhaps that gives us a clue as to when the royal dynasty was extinguished. If "Duke" is an Istarian title, these cities may have been given to Solamnic Knights by a Kingpriest.
Solamnia is getting a very Hundred Years War sort of feel to it, which no doubt is the point (given the inevitable arrival of bombards and cannons if Markham gets his act together)
Gunpowder existed for hundreds of years before it turned to guns. See my first post for all the things that have to occur before you have guns. The gun is a fairly complex instrument, which required input by several thinkers to figure out. Claiming that guns are inevitable is like claiming you can have a steam engine as soon as you figure out that coal burns.
God I hate "progressive" thinking. The idea that things have to occur in a specific way because we are growing greater and grander. Balderdash. Technological innovation builds upon its own discoveries, and missing a step can cause all sorts of changes. Imagine for example if widespread electricty came before the household toilet. You would probably have an electrical pump flushing it, rather than the mechanism of gravity. Imagine if there were no batteries. We would probably be winding many of our radios (and using kenetic energy) to hear them play.
Not sure at this point if the knights of the Sword or the Rose bear any special qualifiable differences from the knights of the Crown, but perhaps that too will be resolved in the later books.
Well, here is the crux of the matter. What if Doug Niles never has clerics in the Order of the Sword? What if the Order of the Rose isn't presented as the most demanding order of the knighthood, demanding a training in leadership, law, and philosophy? Will the game books adjust, or will Doug Niles just be ignored?
See my first post for all the things that have to occur before you have guns....God I hate "progressive" thinking...
All that's necessary for there to be cannons in Dragonlance is for an author to say so.
So the question is then whether there has traditionally been an office of Duke for these three cities, which was left vacant during republican rule... or whether these offices were newly created and given to the war leaders of these cities (post WoS) which promptly seized power. Given the fact that they are refered to ceremonially by the names of the cities themselves, the former seems more likely.
On this end I would disagree. I think that Cam has implied that this is definitely a case of people taking titles that have never existed before in order to legitimize their rule. Tommorow, if I had a sufficent army, I could take control of part of England. If I demanded that I be referred to as "Norfolk" like in Elizabeth then that's what people will refer to me as.
I'm also rather concerned about the etemology of "Duke". It is, as Cam pointed out, a Latin term of the late roman empire in which someone occupied a region on behalf of the empire as war leader. However, it seems that this wasn't a term used in Ergoth ("Warden" being the equivelant in Tonya Cook and Paul B. Thompson's books). Given that Christopher Pierson went with pseudo-latin for Istarian speech, perhaps that gives us a clue as to when the royal dynasty was extinguished. If "Duke" is an Istarian title, these cities may have been given to Solamnic Knights by a Kingpriest.
I'm inclined to be of the mind that it probably is an Istarian term but there's the simple fact that Dragonlance has never seemingly had much in the way of a formal organized structure of nobility, even Qualinesti and Silvanstani have always been just the Speakers. Also, the Kingpriest never had much in the way of authority over Solamnia that they would "give" lands. They were more interested in seizing them honestly, Solamnia was more an 'allied state' to Istar.
Gunpowder existed for hundreds of years before it turned to guns. See my first post for all the things that have to occur before you have guns. The gun is a fairly complex instrument, which required input by several thinkers to figure out. Claiming that guns are inevitable is like claiming you can have a steam engine as soon as you figure out that coal burns.
To the credit of the scenario, Gnomes have been blowing themselves up with SOMETHING for years. With Thinker Gnomes aplenty, there's actually no reason not to assume that they cannot make the reasonable leap in logic to understanding how to produce rifles or similiar weapons. Gnomes are operating at a Industrial Age and have been for years.
God I hate "progressive" thinking. The idea that things have to occur in a specific way because we are growing greater and grander. Balderdash. Technological innovation builds upon its own discoveries, and missing a step can cause all sorts of changes. Imagine for example if widespread electricty came before the household toilet. You would probably have an electrical pump flushing it, rather than the mechanism of gravity. Imagine if there were no batteries. We would probably be winding many of our radios (and using kenetic energy) to hear them play.
True, on the other hand, the technology and sociology of Krynn is almost completely stagnant. While I'm sure guns offend you as a scientist, try and understand how bewildered I get when I try to look "objectively" at the fact that Knights have been fighting with platemail, chainmail, broadswords, and pole rams with no change whatsoever for about 2000 years. As a European History major who specializes in knights, its painful to read.
For situations like this, I just assume its the gods doing.
Well, here is the crux of the matter. What if Doug Niles never has clerics in the Order of the Sword? What if the Order of the Rose isn't presented as the most demanding order of the knighthood, demanding a training in leadership, law, and philosophy? Will the game books adjust, or will Doug Niles just be ignored?
We've already dealt with this if you remember "Wizard's Conclave." Wizard's Conclave was quite clear that all sorcerers are renegades and furthermore the implication is sorcery is an affront to the gods and the "Dark Side of the Force."
Then we got the Supplement that said otherwise.
It amazes me that this is like the 3rd time gunpowder has been introduced into Dragonlance. Once in the short story with Ulin, once in the Ogre trilogy (Winterheim and The Golden Orb or something), and now in these books. I dont mind if it was introduced and then promptly dismissed, since it really doesnt affect much and I can pretty much ignore it. This has led me to two beliefes... either the authors and maybe ppl at WoTC really want gunpowder in Dragonlance(oh the horror
) or... they just seems to want to be *the* one to introduce it and say look! without really reading the other books that have mentioned it. I dunno, its a really touchy subject for me and makes me physically mad when I think about it...I havent read more of the book, but right now I'm more dissapointed in this book, than anything else. I actually retract my previous statement in a different thread that said the Linsha trilogy was horrible. No... this book is horrible.. and the Linsha trilogy just was bad.
This book has practically killed any faith I had that the Knighthood would end up anything like I think it should be, or was portrayed to eventually be. I had no problem with the Knights being "down" in the Chronicles, I just assumed that from then on they would start to build themselves back up and come back to the ideal.
In this books, Knights are barely distinguished from regular soldiers. They are almost interchangeable.. and nothing we know of the knights has been implemented, with new ranks, etc being instated just seemingly from thin air. Most of these "knights" dont even seem like Knights.. they just seem like regular everyday soldiers.
On dragonlance.com, there was a guy who wrote a really good reply about how this book could phyisically be dropped into FR and it would fit. And I wholeheartily agree. Replace Hiddukel with Cyric and its the same thing.
I do have to say I am only half way through the book, so who knows I guess my opinion could change, but I'm actually having a hard time getting through the whole book.
I'm to the point where most novels that come out just plain suck and barely even come close to describing the Krynn we know. These people come in and do whatever they feel like doing and it pisses me off. This is actually a time where we need the Novel forums, the authors to come to them, and us to write in threads saying: "Stop!.. just put down the pen.. you can pick up the pen or turn on the computer and write after you take a month off and look through the books that are written before you and actually try to use some of the same information". I hated it when I would see so many people bash the FR authors, but I'm starting to have a healthy(or unhealthy
) disrespect for the authors of this setting. The only saving grace for novels right now is the Minotaur trilogy. I have little hopes for the Taladas novels because I'm scared it will end up with another invasion of Ansalon.I know some of this stuff sounds horrible, but personally i'm past the point of caring. This book so far has pretty much been the straw that breaks the back (or however that saying goes =p). This Knighthood sucks ****, and I cant believe that some of the organizations and key things that made Dragonlance, well Dragonlance, has changed or been ruined so much that they are barely recognizable. We dont have any Knighthoods anymore really. We have clubs of people who basically do whatever they want, and dont worry about the tenents they were founded on. The Knights in these books are just basically soldiers.. like everyday practical mercenaries or bodyguards for the "dukes". And I know you guys are all coming up with technical ways that Dukes exist, etc.. but in the end this author fubbed and just started writing without giving any thought to anything.
I'm done before I actually write more... I hope at least some ppl got enjoyment out of the book so that at least some people are happy. I'd feel a lot better if I'm the only one who gets this mad about the stuff because then I know its just my problem. If many others come to the same conclusions as me, than I think we are on the road to trouble.
To the credit of the scenario, Gnomes have been blowing themselves up with SOMETHING for years. With Thinker Gnomes aplenty, there's actually no reason not to assume that they cannot make the reasonable leap in logic to understanding how to produce rifles or similiar weapons. Gnomes are operating at a Industrial Age and have been for years.
Well steam tech for sure. No mass production or assembly line though seemingly, as they are never finished tinkering with the prototypes. Of course simply talking about gnomes has sobered me up about "technological realism" on Krynn. ;)
I could maybe buy guns if dwarves have blast furnaces, and gnomes have had gunpowder for centuries. Then I want extremely primitive guns. You know, dangerous, crude and largely useless. Things that can create a mess on the battlefield (at short ranges), but can't do much against a fortified structure.
True, on the other hand, the technology and sociology of Krynn is almost completely stagnant. While I'm sure guns offend you as a scientist, try and understand how bewildered I get when I try to look "objectively" at the fact that Knights have been fighting with platemail, chainmail, broadswords, and pole rams with no change whatsoever for about 2000 years. As a European History major who specializes in knights, its painful to read.
That is true, though "Bertrem's Guide" deals with changes in warfare and armour in both ancient and modern times. As well, Tonya Cook and Paul B. Thompson have been putting an effort into showing that the 2000 year old tech, (ala Richard Knaak's Legend of Huma) as you mention above, actually isn't.
Besides, we did fight with chainmail, broadswords, polerams etc. for two thousand years. The Roman Legionnaries used chain before they used splint, and longswords are almost as old as iron use. Now, these things changed in style, increased in complexity, and used better steel as time went on.
In this books, Knights are barely distinguished from regular soldiers. They are almost interchangeable.. and nothing we know of the knights has been implemented, with new ranks, etc being instated just seemingly from thin air. Most of these "knights" dont even seem like Knights.. they just seem like regular everyday soldiers.
Don't worry, the WotL sourcebook portrays Solamnic Order as being elite units and commanders of militias. The novels... I don't think the authors or the editor experts really know about this. I beleive that they think the knights are an army unto themselves.
We dont have any Knighthoods anymore really. We have clubs of people who basically do whatever they want, and dont worry about the tenents they were founded on. The Knights in these books are just basically soldiers.. like everyday practical mercenaries or bodyguards for the "dukes". And I know you guys are all coming up with technical ways that Dukes exist, etc.. but in the end this author fubbed and just started writing without giving any thought to anything.
I certainly share your suspicions on the matter.
I'm done before I actually write more... I hope at least some ppl got enjoyment out of the book so that at least some people are happy.
I haven't seen any positive reviews yet, but maybe that's just because the cantankerous are speaking out. It is easier to criticize than find something good to say. More rewarding in our society too.
As for your objections to guns and gunpowder, I wouldn't drop the setting if they moved to a rennaissance tech level. Heck, even more of an incentive for a revised DLCS. The knightly orders can certainly exist with a "Three Musketeers" feel to the characters (cloaks and rapiers) as long as they don't forget their chivalric roots. I am annoyed if this is the way it is being implemented, but I can deal with it.
Its hit me like a ton of bricks. Each order is basically a private army, and they care very little or none about the other two orders. This is not how its supposed to be! Even during the War of the Lance, when they had internal politic fighting, things were still recognized and it was still called the Knights of Solamnia. Not the Crown army, the Sword army, the Rose army. Yes they might have been split up, but it was seen as something that they all worked together.
I can't believe that the princess was the one who had to REMIND them that they need to work together.
This Knighthood...is horrible. This book is horrible. This author, for this book, is horrible. If more things happen like what has happened in this book, Dragonlance will be nothing like what it used to be. And I will be forced to look for a new CS. Its not a threat or anything like that. But I'm actually coming to the horrified thought that I may need to move beyond Dragonlance. I've always seen Dragonlance as my primary focus, and everything else as kind of secondary. But I'm just in such awe.. that I'm speechless.
Who knows.. I'm going back to reading just so I can get through this book
When writing novels, authors sometimes have to set up what is an unpopular state of affairs. By shaping the scene, they can continue on through the story, and provide us with a spectacular ending.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think that's what is happening here. By showing how the knighthood has had fragmentation and some corruption, Niles sets the stage for the knighthood's eventual redemption.
Things can't be peaches and cream all the time. ;)
I think you'll eventually see the restoration of honor, and the uniting of the knighthood and Solamnia itself. I also think that gunpowder will blow up in their faces. ;)
I would advise giving it some time and trying not to make any hasty judgments. Let's just see where this is going.
Cheers,
Cam
Once gunpowder is introduced and used frequently, I'm done with the world. I have a line drawn in the sand over it, and if a campaign crosses that line, then I move on. I understand some people dont mind it, and thats fine.. just telling where I stand at. Even if there is a little in FR, you rarely hear about it and its *very* easy to get rid of. If I start seeing Knights of Solamnia dragging around barrels of gunpowder into war, its done and over. Just how I am.
I would hold out my friend and take a deep breath. Realize that Krynn is a world that is 'Swords and Sorcery' and aside from the possibility of a three bladed sword that has an air shot feature, there's little chance we'll be seeing "Modern Warfare" incorporated into Krynn to any significant amount. D&D's own rules guarantees it.
Why exactly would we have it when arrows do as much damage as guns and are easier to use?
Much like the Dragon Overlords, stories are always being experimented with in Krynn but they never get too far from the property.
I havent read more of the book, but right now I'm more dissapointed in this book, than anything else. I actually retract my previous statement in a different thread that said the Linsha trilogy was horrible. No... this book is horrible.. and the Linsha trilogy just was bad.
Actually, Return of the Exile redeemed the Linsha books for me. The problem is that I had my "Solamnic Knight switch" on in my head. As did alot of people. They wanted to make Linsha Majere basically into another Sturm Brightblade who is 'better than the Measure.' Instead, the story is more about as Lord Toede is to the Dragonhighlords rather than a story about the Solamnics.
Linsha's a screw up and someone who got to her position by being a canny warrior and a rogue in a time when the Knights were outlawed, a secret society, and more or less living in dispora. When the Gods returned, Linsha found herself judged by standards that she didn't understand and was booted.
Her "bootage" (pun intended) is well commented on in the works and was sufficient enough to made me look at the books in a new light.
I know some of this stuff sounds horrible, but personally i'm past the point of caring. This book so far has pretty much been the straw that breaks the back (or however that saying goes =p). This Knighthood sucks ****
I'm actually somewhat heartened by the description of the Lord of the Rose's main character on WOTC. He's described as genuinely evil. I think he's being set up as a villain rather than a hero. I think that or a redemption arc is good. The story is about the unification of the solamnics underneath a questionable authority figure.
I don't think it's fair to necessarily believe they are wrong
Well steam tech for sure. No mass production or assembly line though seemingly, as they are never finished tinkering with the prototypes. Of course simply talking about gnomes has sobered me up about "technological realism" on Krynn. ;)
Heheheh true. I'd actually question whether Gnomes don't have mass production or assembly lines, they're just not put to economic use. Gnomes invent for religious purposes, not economic which doesn't exist in our world. hence, it's entirely possible that admist the various patents and prototypes is any number of highly advanced processes or machines. We know that Gnomes have submarines and mechanical flying dragons (helicopter based?) amongst other machines.
I could maybe buy guns if dwarves have blast furnaces, and gnomes have had gunpowder for centuries. Then I want extremely primitive guns. You know, dangerous, crude and largely useless. Things that can create a mess on the battlefield (at short ranges), but can't do much against a fortified structure.
My guess is that the canons for the Knights of Solamnia are either Gnome forged, in which let the buyer beware, or they are indeed this sort of primitive. We certainly know how these things have functioned in the past and if any bombards work perfectly (as they're known in D&D) then its probably because the interior metal is enchanted or similiarly difficult to replicate feat.
That is true, though "Bertrem's Guide" deals with changes in warfare and armour in both ancient and modern times. As well, Tonya Cook and Paul B. Thompson have been putting an effort into showing that the 2000 year old tech, (ala Richard Knaak's Legend of Huma) as you mention above, actually isn't.
Touche. Though on the other hand, trying to apply real world physics to this world and development is an excercise in failure. Huma SHOULD be in plate mail with his great sword.
Besides, we did fight with chainmail, broadswords, polerams etc. for two thousand years. The Roman Legionnaries used chain before they used splint, and longswords are almost as old as iron use. Now, these things changed in style, increased in complexity, and used better steel as time went on.
Too true.
Personally, regardless of what you think of the novels, I would strongly advise not slamming the authors, and I would even more strongly advise not advocating the opening of a Novels board just to school the authors in how to write. This sort of behavior closes threads and does nothing but cause the authors to avoid spending any time with fans at all.
Cheers,
Cam
Understood Cam, sometimes its hard to trust authors
When writing novels, authors sometimes have to set up what is an unpopular state of affairs. By shaping the scene, they can continue on through the story, and provide us with a spectacular ending.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think that's what is happening here. By showing how the knighthood has had fragmentation and some corruption, Niles sets the stage for the knighthood's eventual redemption.
It's actually very obvious that's what is occuring. He has a short prologue that restores the knighthood, just so it can be torn apart and be restored?
The problem really, is that the story elements don't fit.
I wonder where Rose Knights are selected from? I can't imagine these "knightly orders" graduating personel into the "next" knighthood.
And, that still doesn't answer why Habbakuk got the boot!
Anyways, I dont mind seeing curruption in the Knighthood, but the Knights of Solamnia have basically been rewritten. They resemble nothing to how they are mentioned in the DLCS, previous gaming materials, and other novels. They are three seperate armies, commanded by "Lords" who care little about the other orders, most of the "knights" dont care about the other knights in the other orders, etc. It is freakin horrible. The Measure is mentioned as an afterthought, with maybe only one or two Knights ever actually thinking about it when they go to do something. God I cannot actually spell out how much I hate how the things have changed. Its almost like they just picked up the world and crumpled it.
I see the future of Dragonlance, and that is the gaming material. But what happens if the people writing the gaming material start incorporating these things into the gaming books? Right now I can ignore the way "these Knights" act in my games. Thats not a problem. But if more gaming books follow the novels, I'm actually scared it will get to the point where I cant ignore the various new things. And then I will have to probably drop the world because it will resemble nothing to the Dragonlance I fell in love with. What happens when new readers come into the Dragonlance world and think that this is how it works? And then you are going to start seeing a splintering of the fanbase.
I dunno, I'm dissillusioned and feeling pretty negative about everything. Maybe I need to step back and not make it such a big deal, but things keep getting progressively worse. While SP keeps putting out better products, the authors keep putting out worse novels. Its almost like we can't ever have both heh.. maybe I just want it all.
"Don't you think the Knighthood will be back into shape by the end of the trilogy and that's the point?"
The KoS resemble very little to how they are written up. So different that they are almost a totally different organization than everything we know about them. He has rewritten them, not made them "fallen" or "disillusioned".
This means if he doesnt even know what the Solamnics should be, it cant come to pass where they end up to that point. Now they may still become "good" and all that, but I have little faith they will turn into what the are supposed to be.
Basically the Knights are now just 3 different armies, who care little for eachother, and cant operate as a team. Where in the world does this come from?? Anyone new reading these books would highly doubt that these three armies are even in the same organization! Also, the person would have no clue about the Oath and Measure, besides them just being *mentioned* a few times.
At least in the Chronicles, Weis and Hickman took the time to explain the Knighthood and its precedures. We see nothing of that in this book.
Of course, I have little to lose because I love essays
Basically the Knights are now just 3 different armies, who care little for eachother, and cant operate as a team. Where in the world does this come from?? Anyone new reading these books would highly doubt that these three armies are even in the same organization! Also, the person would have no clue about the Oath and Measure, besides them just being *mentioned* a few times.
C'mon, here...
"Crown, Sword, and Rose, on one banner," Selinda said in wonder. "As in the days of the old Empire."
[...]
"Lead the Army of Three Signs into the field against the foe."
pp. 390-391
If that's not foreshadowing for a united Knights of Solamnia, I don't know what is. You know, given the portrayal of the knights in this book, I'd almost say that it's fair to apply the rules for KoS from the War of the Lance sourcebook where there's essentially a single PrC for KoCrown that works differently for each order. That would help to emphasize the fact that they seem to have little interaction amongst them.
Also I wouldn't be surprised of the knights on Sancrist still resembled the core Solamnic values. That certainly also grants one more respect for Liam who essentially had to run two different, equally embattled branches of the knighthood from one place.
some how i think that the only true knights left are a small group chillin' on sancrist.
Of course, neither option holds well for the Knights giving the power to rewrite the measure at the whim of the Grandmaster.
I know I have knocked the Linsha trilogy a few times, but I think after this book, I'll withhold my sarcastic comments. Because while I wasnt such a big fan of Linsha or the storylines, at least I could admit it was a Dragonlance book and actually did fit into the world. This book, horrible.. is all I'll say. If you replaced the names of the cities and the very very few Solamnic Knight references, this book could have easily been on any certain world. It actually made me think of FR the whole way through. All in all it wasnt a "bad sstory", it just was the fact that the guy literally had no idea about Krynn, Ansalon, the races, and the organizations of Dragonlance. To me, this was the biggest dissapointment of all.
Did anyone else notice the reference to the Aurak draconians flying because they are the only ones capable of true flight? I was like... um where in the world did you get that from. They dont even have wings. This is the same guy who gave us Dalamar with blond hair
Seriously, this guy needs to do his homework before he writes a book.I really hope this doesnt impact much gaming wise. As in, if there is ever a Knighthood book, or Knights are mentioned in a sourcebook somewhere, that this book(s) either are not referenced, or have a very little synopsis that makes the Knighthood look still like the Knights of Solamnia. I literally saw none of the symbols, things, or ideals I associate the Knighthood with. Even in the Chronicles, we got a good look into what they used to be, how they are currently, their ideals, etc. Maybe those Knights werent perfect, but we saw *how* they were Knights of Solamnia. These Knights have none of that. It would be the same thing as picking out an Ogre hoard and saying "These are Knights of Solamnia". It was that horrible.
I dunno, I cannot and will not incorporate the idea that the Knights are splintered into the three different organizations with no care for the other organizations. To think they are literraly "split up", as in barely any interaction between the three is ludacris. Just for the simple fact that they would have to advance at least a little in some of the others to get to Rose. As I said, the orders do not make 3 seperate private armies. While they do fight in formation, sometimes being differentied by Order, I doubt that this is what is done every single time. I just cant get over that they came off as 3 different, private, gready armies who cared nothing for the other groups.
No reference to Habakkuk, very very little reference to Kiri-Jolith(which is just dang amazing), and an overwhelming abundance of Shinare love, even though she is a Neutral deity all contribute to an incomplete story. I mean, come on, Kiri-Jolith is back in force. I dont want the Knighthood to turn into a militant arm of the Kiri-Jolith faith, but sheesh.. where were the Sword Knights peity, their worship, etc. That was surprisinly lacking also.
Now at the end, the Knights seem to be "rallying". My hope is that by the end of all this, the Knighthood is put into a generic enough form that I can say, "eh.. they are now how they are described in the DLCS and every other single product!" How can anyone have the Knighthood actually be like what was described? It makes no sense.
Hopefully gaming books will gloss over this point in Dragonlance history so that more people arent affected by it. The sheer lack of Dragonlance knowledge and blatent disregard for keeping things consistant and obvious lack of doing just a little bit of homework has made this book worse than The Dark Queen in my opinion. This is truely a low point in Dragonlance.
Did anyone else notice the reference to the Aurak draconians flying because they are the only ones capable of true flight? I was like... um where in the world did you get that from. They dont even have wings. This is the same guy who gave us Dalamar with blond hair
Well, this is Doug Niles, one of the original module writers.
I think maybe Doug thinks he knows the campaign setting better than he thinks he does, and perhaps it is time for a good long refresher course. He does write very good gaming stuff, but I don't think he really references anything much but his own work.Personally though, I blame the editor (or perhaps "resident DL expert") for not catching this, or the black kapaks.
I really hope this doesnt impact much gaming wise. As in, if there is ever a Knighthood book, or Knights are mentioned in a sourcebook somewhere, that this book(s) either are not referenced, or have a very little synopsis that makes the Knighthood look still like the Knights of Solamnia. I literally saw none of the symbols, things, or ideals I associate the Knighthood with.
Well none of the traditional titles and ranks were used, to be sure. I didn't see much about knightly salutes, quoting from the measure, and various other mannerisms we expect from the Knights of Solamnia.
Is this a matter of trying to show the knights as corrupt, or simply not really knowing enough to conciously include them? I personally cannot say, because I don't know where this is going. I do know that if by the end of the trilogy that if the Crown, Sword, and Rose knights don't have the things that distinguished the various orders, Sovereign Press is going to have a choice to make. For example, whether or not to have clerical spells in the knights of the sword.
This would not be entirely unexpected. After all, we have only seen sword knights do any sort of clerical magic briefly in "Dragons of Summer Flame", and nowhere else. It would also make the clergy of Kiri-Jolith a lot more relevant. So if the Knights of Solamnia simply are a tripartite knightly order, then fine, as long as the gaming products agree. We do have, after all, the knight of Solamnia prestige class in the WotL sourcebook.
Just for the simple fact that they would have to advance at least a little in some of the others to get to Rose.
Tee hee, I've always disliked that rule, because it means that the crown and sword are appearantly left with the dregs of the knighthood. I always thought you'd train in war under the crown, study in faith with the knights of the sword, and study law and jurisprudence under the knights of the Rose.... but you wouldn't join all three. You'd make your vows to serve one of them.
Of course, if we stuck with a single "Knight of Solamnia class" I guess you could join all three. I just hate having to figure out a stat block using three prestige classes every damn time.
Hopefully gaming books will gloss over this point in Dragonlance history so that more people arent affected by it. The sheer lack of Dragonlance knowledge and blatent disregard for keeping things consistant and obvious lack of doing just a little bit of homework has made this book worse than The
Dark Queen in my opinion. This is truely a low point in Dragonlance.
Now, now. Let's not say anything we can't take back. ;)
It seemed pretty obvious to me in the prologue that while the Knights regained power after the WOS, they were drastically altered in an unfortunate way. Quite frankly the people of Solamnia stopped trusting and needing the warriors in there society and instead turned to the merchants. Happens alot in life.
Now as for the changes in the knighthood, it would jsut be so easy for a change like this to occur. Before the merchant princes gained power the knights were an elite chivalric order devoted to the wellfare of Solamnia and the triumvarite of Paladine, Kiri-Jolith, and Habbakuk. One guy names three others Lords of the various orders, and the original knighthood basically dies. Instead of the various trails and oaths the KOS origianlly lived by, I would be willing to guess that membership basically is bought these days.
If you look at any elite military unit in the world, all it takes to transform a world-class superb fighting force into an common army of grunts is a drop in the standards for membership. If the Lord of the Rose states that instead of the old pre-requisites to being a Rose Knight you merely have to donate a little bit of gold it would quite literally spell the end of the knighthood in days.
Which is also how three knights were recruited to assasinate Lorimar. They were nothing but thugs anyways.
And remember how long it took the Knights of Takhisis to turn into a bunch of armored thugs?
Lets just hope that someone fixes the knighthood.
Oh, and I see nothing wrong with what Jaymes has done. Remember he warned that priest. That is all that honor demands in my opinion.
Tee hee, I've always disliked that rule, because it means that the crown and sword are appearantly left with the dregs of the knighthood. I always thought you'd train in war under the crown, study in faith with the knights of the sword, and study law and jurisprudence under the knights of the Rose.... but you wouldn't join all three. You'd make your vows to serve one of them.
Of course, if we stuck with a single "Knight of Solamnia class" I guess you could join all three. I just hate having to figure out a stat block using three prestige classes every damn time.
I never really had a problem with it, simply because I think a lot of knights would be content with being a soldier. It's like someone joining the army and deciding to stay in, rather than leave to become a politician (Rose).
But then, my pair of knights became sword knights. Some knights just adopt the spiritual nature of things and I think Swords make the better questing adventurers.
Now as for the changes in the knighthood, it would jsut be so easy for a change like this to occur. Before the merchant princes gained power the knights were an elite chivalric order devoted to the wellfare of Solamnia and the triumvarite of Paladine, Kiri-Jolith, and Habbakuk. One guy names three others Lords of the various orders, and the original knighthood basically dies. Instead of the various trails and oaths the KOS origianlly lived by, I would be willing to guess that membership basically is bought these days.
I think my main problem is that there's no reference to any of that. Habbakuk is just OUT, not "and the lord of the fishes was dropped in favor of the merchant diety" or anything. Habbakuk was simply forgotten.
In fact, from the reading, I'd figure it was thought the three gods were Paladine, Mishakel and Kiri-Jolith, drop Paladine, add Shinare.
Oh, and I see nothing wrong with what Jaymes has done. Remember he warned that priest. That is all that honor demands in my opinion.
He was robbing a church. He killed a person that tried to stop him. (Not "he killed a person trying to harm him". The priest was Holding them at that point.)
How about the knight guarding the Sword Duke? He barged in, with no evidence, killed a guard, intimidated the guy, found out the Duke was innocent, then left. No regrets.
How about the Duke of Solanthus, how many did he kill to find out that THAT Duke was also innocent?
The knights elected a CE warrior to lead them. That's not the knighthood I want to see.
The knights elected a CE warrior to lead them. That's not the knighthood I want to see.
The minotaur Emperor is CE too. Hortak is selling minotaur slaves to the ogres. They'll both be gone by the end.
Sheesh, I'd have hated to see your reaction to Raistlin becoming a black robe.
Jaymes killed the knights in order to keep from being killed himself. Here was a guy who was framed for murder. I'm sure the knights he killed in this weren't the first ones. It's not inconceivable that a life on the run forced him to kill in self-defense, which only made it easier as time went on. That's the way existence works in this sort of way of looking at the genre. It's a very Rousseauean interpretation of the nature of human beings, that in a state of nature even the noblest character out there is a savage brute. As Solamnia is rebuilt, the character will likely come to resemble the ideals of the knighthood.
Honestly, from both a literary standpoint and the general way that Dragonlance stories work I dont think this is a very hard thing to really recognize. It's so early that I think it's incredibly premature to forecast with any certainty that this trilogy will so drastically break with tradition.
I really have no interest in reading about the sterling and boring Dudley Do-Rightish sort of character who appears one day with complete and obvious piety for the reader. Even Sturm had some significant flaws such as living a lie to his friends, and often being obstinant and overly judgmental. It was these things combined with his moral fortitude that made him such a wonderful character. He really was far from being the sort of spotless and unrealistically idealized knight that people seem to want the entire knighthood to be comprised of.
Granted, Sturm's flaws were obviously a lot less pronounced than Jaymes's, but again I think that the specific context of the story allows for this. You had this guy who was in a lofty position sink really incredibly low. It's about seeing the value and potential in someone even when they don't see it themselves. Give it time, folks.
Basically everything the Knighthood is founded on, we will never see in a Knight because its boring, too "do-goodish", and just isnt interesting. Murdering a few people for barely any reason, even when his life wasnt technically threatened... well we need someone who is "gritty".
You do realize that a guy could honor the Oath and Measure, live by it throughout his life, and still have a few flaws and when he makes a mistake, tries to atone for it and actually feels ashamed?
While its true that we have only seen the first book, its the book that sets the tone for the trilogy. If I see things wrong with it, I am afraid that these "inconsistancies" will remain in future novels because I'm not sure wether he is doing them on purpose in order to show the struggle of the Knighthood.. or if he just doesnt know much about Dragonlance and has accidently left things out.
Its amazing how many people play "good" PC's in their campaign worlds, but see someone who was good and actually followed a tradition, culture, and discipline of a Knighthood has to be boring and we need more "gritty" characters. I dunno, I guess the Knighthood is just one big joke because no one can ever be a real Knight. He's too boring or not "adventure" material. Might as well get rid of the Knighthood and start having more books about the Legion of Steel.
I mean.. who cares if the Knighthood is one way and those are the ways the people of the organization act.. I'm making the book a certain feel, so I'll just forget about everything else that has been established before me
Yea, I guess the consensus is that its not possible to have a Knight who follows the Measure, lives the Oath, and is still interesting. I mean having someone actually strive to do good, while adventuring and trying to shape the world is boring right?
True Blue, I think you are crying wolf. In this case, I think the man is an evil monster and he'll be revealed as such for the story. Douglas Niles is an author that can be trusted in this sort of thing. Do you remember the hero of the Kingpriest trilogy?
He's a Knight of Solamnic type with flaws and so is Sturm, Huma, and more. Honestly, I'm more of the mind that Vinus Solamnus is the worst knight we've seen.
Basically everything the Knighthood is founded on, we will never see in a Knight because its boring, too "do-goodish", and just isnt interesting. Murdering a few people for barely any reason, even when his life wasnt technically threatened... well we need someone who is "gritty".
And where do you get this impression exactly? Amber and Ashes has the same knights as always. Linsha was a rogue but the knights were in dispora at the time and we saw how her bumbling got a bunch of dragons, her fellow soldiers, and more killed before she became a Knight of Kiri Jonilith and probably will "shapen up." The Knights of the Lord of Rose are in a period of intense disease but the "hero" is being set up as villain.
You do realize that a guy could honor the Oath and Measure, live by it throughout his life, and still have a few flaws and when he makes a mistake, tries to atone for it and actually feels ashamed?
Like 2 guys doesn't realize it Blue. You're treatment of this book is alittle over the top, especially since what matter in the SOURCEBOOKS treat the knights as they always were.
While its true that we have only seen the first book, its the book that sets the tone for the trilogy. If I see things wrong with it, I am afraid that these "inconsistancies" will remain in future novels because I'm not sure wether he is doing them on purpose in order to show the struggle of the Knighthood.. or if he just doesnt know much about Dragonlance and has accidently left things out.
Since when do Books set the tone for a series? They set the tone for how things will change. Star Wars a New Hope is nothing like Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi. The Phantom Menace is the same way.
Its amazing how many people play "good" PC's in their campaign worlds, but see someone who was good and actually followed a tradition, culture, and discipline of a Knighthood has to be boring and we need more "gritty" characters. I dunno, I guess the Knighthood is just one big joke because no one can ever be a real Knight. He's too boring or not "adventure" material. Might as well get rid of the Knighthood and start having more books about the Legion of Steel.
Geez dude, where do you get this attitude? I've never seen it on these board.
I mean.. who cares if the Knighthood is one way and those are the ways the people of the organization act.. I'm making the book a certain feel, so I'll just forget about everything else that has been established before me
HE'S DOUGLAS NILES dude. DOUGLAS NILES.
I will state that I find alot of knights lazy writing. Frankly, Lord Gunther and his successors that "honored" Knights of Takhasis in the region of the Inn of the Last Home were stupid. I'm also embarrassed about the attitude that, saving the world or knight, that they weren't chased down and destroyed.
I was also annoyed they felt the need to Revise the Measure in the first place. It smacked of arrogance against tradition. We don't see many knights with qualities of MEANESS honestly and hardened against the world that would come with the Night of the Dragons.
The expectations of infighting, anger over corruption, and more is only referred to the in the Prologue. Honestly, I think we should have seen the Prologue. I wanted to see a Civil War over the Solamnics who collaborated with the Knights and those who didn't. The survivors arguing over who did what.
Why? Because its what happens after an occupation.
I admit that maybe I do get ahead of myself. But I'm afraid that if Douglas Niles thinks everything was cool in this book, he'll write the other two along the same lines as this one. Personally, I could care less who actually wrote the book. I dont care what their name is, I know who he is and what he has written. It doesnt matter who the author is if the book has lots of inconsistancies. Especially if it keeps happening from book to book. No one is above fault. Everyone can do wrong.
I do worry about this new book because remember, the gaming materials follow the novels in the Dragonlance world. Just because the "old" DLCS says that Knights are one way, that doesnt mean it cant change real quick. And I dont know exactly how much control SP has over stuff like this. If a new novel comes out and says, no the Knighthood is like this.. I think SP will have to adapt and change. And in this particular instance, that is the very last thing I want to happen.
again I realize people are tired of hearing me rant, and I've pretty much gotten out a lot of my frustration and annoyance, people around here have had to also hear about it :P . Just wanted to say my last peace and why I do worry that this is a trend, and not some isolated event.
It really could happen that in the next two books he could revert back to the description in every other book of how the Knights are. If so wonderful, I was wrong and will accept it. But I'll be happy as peach that the Knights are back to at least resembling the write-up of them. If they are still like what we see in this book, I'll be dissapointed and actually downright outraged. But I'll get over it in some form or another, either adapting to it myself or just staying away from the Solamnics and/or Dragonlance. I'm just actually glad to see at least some people have some of the same concerns that i do, and that its just not me actually worried about these things. Maybe I take it too far, but I feel the Solamnics have never gotten a good story given to them and I find it unfortunate. Also, its just gotten to the point where I constantly see post after post that we can't have someone follow the Oath and Measure and actually attempt real good in the world because its boring.
Sorry for everyone who actually had to read my posts, but I always feel better after stating my opinions and I actually do enjoy a good debate. :embarrass
You're treatment of this book is alittle over the top, especially since what matter in the SOURCEBOOKS treat the knights as they always were.
I hate to say it, True_Blue, but I do think you're carrying this a bit far. It's a book, meant for entertainment and enjoyment. It's fine if you don't like it, but going on about it isn't going to help matters.
There's a few things you can do. Vote with your dollar. If you don't like this book, don't pick up the remainder of the series. Talk to WotC customer support and voice your opinion. Let them know that you didn't appreciate this book.
Since when do Books set the tone for a series?
Oftentimes in a trilogy, the first book serves the purpose of introducing the reader to the characters and the situation. The second book is a bridge, getting you from point A to point B, and setting things up for the third book, which is the finale of the series.
I will state that I find alot of knights lazy writing. Frankly, Lord Gunther and his successors that "honored" Knights of Takhasis in the region of the Inn of the Last Home were stupid. I'm also embarrassed about the attitude that, saving the world or knight, that they weren't chased down and destroyed.
I'm going to disagree. I think it's the right thing to do for the KoS to honor the KoT for standing by them and fighting against Chaos. That doesn't mean that they're fast friends, just that they recognize their heroism and bravery, at least on that one day.
I was also annoyed they felt the need to Revise the Measure in the first place. It smacked of arrogance against tradition.
Lord Gunthar saw how the Measure had been changed throughout history to become this massive beast - one that tended to make knights like Derek Crownguard. Gunthar wanted to get back to the heart of the matter. Unfortunately, he became senile, so his writings became gibberish. Luckily, Liam Ehrling was there to finish his friend's life work, sacrificing any personal glory and restoring Gunthar's honor in the process.
Also, its just gotten to the point where I constantly see post after post that we can't have someone follow the Oath and Measure and actually attempt real good in the world because its boring.
I'd just like to interject here and ask you to go back over my post again and find exactly where it was that I ever implied this was the case. I certainly had high praise for Sturm for that--yet at the same time also mentioned exactly how he was significantly flawed enough to where he's not completely the sort of knight that you seem to want (or at least how I'm understanding what you want, anyways). My point is that it's easy for characters to lose complexity when we want so desperately to insert moral paragons into stories. I think, however, what makes such moral paragons so powerful is precisely the fact that they're human and vulnerable to the same vices and flaws as everyone else. Otherwise it just becomes that much less inspirational--it becomes less about seeing a person live them, and more about seeing a charicature walking around like a puppet bereft of any real, raw human adherence to those values, and only having them because it's convenient for the author.
Again, I think that Jaymes's decision to finally put his selfishness aside and take the reigns of the southern branch of the knighthood speaks to this sort of ideal, of a flawed person deciding to overcome circumstance and try to be a better person. Will this pan out? I'm not sure, but I suspect it's the case. I also wouldn't be surprised if in the next book there are also characters who are unwilling to overlook the blood on his hands.
I agree that i dont want to see some snotty guy, who does no wrong in the world, come along and just be that paragon of virtue that 99.99999% of the world cant live up to. I do want to see knights who at least attempt to live by the Oath and Measure, reflecting upon and thinking about it, and generally try to do good in the world as much as possible. But, I will agree its the flaws that make people more realistic. This is one of the reasons why I like the elves a lot more than what most other ppl do. I see constant elf hate a lot when it comes to Dragonlance. Personally, the racism and bigotry I find as refreshing because I can see their flaws and I think they seem more "human". My problem doesnt stem from the fact that these Knights have flaws. My problem comes from the fact that most of them in the past several novels that have detailed a great many of them have not even tried to live by the Oath and Measure, or even really acknowledge its worth. I find that annoying because that is practically the point of being the Knight. If you dont believe in the stuff, why would you join the Knighthood? I realize there may be a few who will join the Knighthood for different reasons, trying to make riches, wanting the prestige, etc... but I like to see some who actually do join because of the Oath and Measure and strive to incorporate them into their lives. The Knight from the Silver Stair was an example of a Knight who mentioned the Oath and Measure and actually was a pretty good knight, if not a little flawed. Unfortunately I can't comment too much about it because, honestly I dont remember all the particular details. I just remember not having any problem with her, although maybe I should refresh my memory before I open my mouth :embarrass
I dont so much have a problem with Jaymes because he isnt the "epitome" of the Knighthood. I have a problem with him because at times, some of the stuff he does is close to being evil, even if it isnt intended or planned evil. Just killing certain people because they are "in his way" seems a little bit over the top. But I can accept the fact that he could "atone" and end up becoming a great leader for the Solamnics, if it comes to that. I just think he was taken a little bit over the top to make him look "gritty".
Again, I aoplogize if I took things a little far. Sometimes it just seems that there is some consensus that a Knight who actually valued the Measure and Oath would be boring. And I dont want that :D Bring on the flaws, but keep the constant search to make oneself better.
Sturm technically wasnt even a Knight for very long. Had he been, I think he would have been a Knight that I would have considered a "true knight". yes he had flaws, but it never overshadowed the fact that he constantly was striving to be "better" and to live as much as possible by the Oath and Measure. I dont "agree" with everything he did, but I do think he would have made or was a good knight.
Sir Gunther and Sir Eirling seem to be the same character to some extent. Its hard to write members of the same order with devotion to a code without making them the same to some extent.
I hope to stretch the means a bit in my own writing.
I apologize if I came off as a little harsh. It just seems lately that most people assume a person will be "gritty" and do "not good things" because being good would be boring and just too much "do-goodish".
And this is a point I can agree with you on. A character doesn't have to be gritty to be interesting. They can be a good soul and someone representative of the knighthood. At the same time, having those character flaws develops the character further. Part of what made Huma so great is that he had those flaws and never considered himself to be great, yet he was the greatest knight there ever was.
I'm thinking that Jaymes may be someone who will begin as that gritty sort of hero, yet develop along the way. Perhaps he'll undergo some change and become a true knight.
We'll have to wait and see. ;)
Part of what made Huma so great is that he had those flaws and never considered himself to be great, yet he was the greatest knight there ever was.
If anything, I think the Legend of Huma showed that he wasn't the greatest knight there ever was. What is so outstanding about Huma, apart from the fact that he defeated Takhisis, is that his legend became the foundation for the next thousand years of knighthood among the Orders. In essence, the greatest knight in Krynn's history is a legendary character baed strongly on the life of a real person who possessed great flaws and was no more than a knight of the Crown. Sturm, too, has been elevated in the minds of many knights despite his faults.
Magius occupies a similar role in the annals of wizard history. In life, he was kind of a dick. His legend, however, is one of greatness and profound impact, which I rather think has nothing at all to do with his actual personality and more to do with the Orders of High Sorcery themselves.
Cheers,
Cam
Jaymes killed the knights in order to keep from being killed himself. Here was a guy who was framed for murder. I'm sure the knights he killed in this weren't the first ones. It's not inconceivable that a life on the run forced him to kill in self-defense, which only made it easier as time went on. That's the way existence works in this sort of way of looking at the genre. It's a very Rousseauean interpretation of the nature of human beings, that in a state of nature even the noblest character out there is a savage brute. As Solamnia is rebuilt, the character will likely come to resemble the ideals of the knighthood.
I think what you're missing of my arguement, and IMO the novel, is that there is no "ideals of the knighthood" to return to, as presented in this novel. The knighthood doesn't exist, there's no reason for the change.
He wasn't "framed for murder". Years passed and he continued wandering around with the stolen sword. He never defended himself, and the only "evidence" against him was his own behaviour. That could almost be forgiven, as he's disillusioned with the knighthood... but we're living in a Magical World!
No clerics asked Mishakel the truth, no wizards divined for the answer. It took Coryn 3 years to go and look for the Compact? He killed knights doing their duty, he killed a priest to rob him. He attacked the Duke of Solanthas on a whim. (Again, Coryn didn't look for truth before sending her hit man to interogate the Duke. She can divine the route he'd take, but not whether he's innocent.)
I've not talking about "finding the real killer", since that could plausibly be hidden, but magic can prove innocence pretty easily.
But, lets say he felt justified in all this... the simple fact is, he didn't repent, he doesn't feel remorse that I can see. He is an evil warrior that suddenly agree's to lead the knights forces, for no apparent reason.
When they offered to rally to his banner, did they have the knight whose hand he removed come forward and thank him?
Realistically, he should have tried to subdue or disarm the pursuit, or those that stood before him. He simply murdered a bunch of knights, a priest, and a Duke.
Oh, and if he was looking for the "real killer", then what's the story with the blasting powder? It's never explained adequately.
As I said originally, this is a story that seemed to be written, then had Dragonlance quickly added to it afterwards. The prologue serves to turn the stage into what he had in mind for the start of the novel.
If anything, I think the Legend of Huma showed that he wasn't the greatest knight there ever was. What is so outstanding about Huma, apart from the fact that he defeated Takhisis, is that his legend became the foundation for the next thousand years of knighthood among the Orders. In essence, the greatest knight in Krynn's history is a legendary character baed strongly on the life of a real person who possessed great flaws and was no more than a knight of the Crown. Sturm, too, has been elevated in the minds of many knights despite his faults.
Magius occupies a similar role in the annals of wizard history. In life, he was kind of a dick. His legend, however, is one of greatness and profound impact, which I rather think has nothing at all to do with his actual personality and more to do with the Orders of High Sorcery themselves.
Cheers,
Cam
I think Sturm, Solamnus and Huma all have similar appeal, because they were faulty heroes that always wanted to do the right thing. When the time came for the Big Choice, they chose correctly and entered the Legends.
It was amusing though, that Huma wasn't regarded as a real person, but a legend/ metaphor by the knights.
I can accept a Knight character who is a bit scruffy, and somewhat unorthodox, but the murder of innocents for person gain is in my mind strictly evil.
Ummm wasn't the Red Robe working for Hiddikuel?
Which Red Robe?
The Nightmaster at the end was Hiddukel's guy, that's about it so far as I recall.
Which Red Robe?
The Nightmaster at the end was Hiddukel's guy, that's about it so far as I recall.
The priest of Shinare in the Temple. Sorry, Red Robe is sort of my shorthand for all neutrals.
The priest of Shinare in the Temple. Sorry, Red Robe is sort of my shorthand for all neutrals.
The priest in the temple that he robs? No sign of him being Hiddukel's. The two knights with the hobgoblin/ goblin had been in there for a while, they left. Anti-paladin felt it's alright to rob a church if some of the money maybe probably came from the knights, so he went in, knocked out one of them, took the jewels, killed the priest that tried to Hold him.
The priest in the temple that he robs? No sign of him being Hiddukel's. The two knights with the hobgoblin/ goblin had been in there for a while, they left. Anti-paladin felt it's alright to rob a church if some of the money maybe probably came from the knights, so he went in, knocked out one of them, took the jewels, killed the priest that tried to Hold him.
I just finished reading the book and I personally had some interesting thoughts for games.
* Apparently, the number of Goblins and Hobgoblins are fairly vastly underestimated in the lands of Krynn and with a sufficiently powerful figure behind them then they are certainly able to mount a full scale army to their leisure.
* Hiddikuel is as active as Nuitari and Chemosh in spreading his faith. I wouldn't be surprised if Hiddy becomes the new god of Goblins and Ogres while Sargonnas becomes the god of Minotaurs and Dark Knights.
* Sir Jaymes is a murderer, no two cents about it but he's been hunted and wronged by the Knighthood. Much like Dhamon Grimwulf I'm going to give him the chance to prove that he's actually a decent man underneath all the evil he's done as an outlaw.
Still, I must admit...I cheered. Get Shinare out of the Knighthood!
* The glaring absence of the gods of good in the Knighthood struck me as an attempt by the Neutrals to expand as well, or at least Shinare. Without Paladin, it may be that Shinare is attempting to strengthen the ranks of good for her own ends.
* The Prophecy that Sir Jaymes will unite the Knighthood and marry a Princess makes me speculate that he's a reincarnation of Vinus Solamnus. Weird I know but Vinus was a mass murderer and much worse person than Sir Jaymes yet all the portent seems to indicate he'll restore the Knighthood.
* The Duke titles definitely seem to be new things and I don't think the three orders at each others throats butthere's definitely a lack of organized leadership.
I agree with the speculation that they're the High Clerist, the High Warrior, etc and they're currently vying for who will be the new Grand Master
* The Gnomes aren't Lantanese or anything of the sort. They're just gnomes adjusted to living outside of Mount Nevermind.
* Caergoth as a Priest of Hiddukuel is probably the one who appointed the priest of Shinare and thus its quite likely the man in question that he shot with his crossbow was also so.
Not that it changes his knowledge, unless he has "Detect Evil" as a Knight of the Rose (or former one)
* Sir Jaymes is a murderer, no two cents about it but he's been hunted and wronged by the Knighthood. Much like Dhamon Grimwulf I'm going to give him the chance to prove that he's actually a decent man underneath all the evil he's done as an outlaw.
He wasn't wronged by the knighthood really. He wasn't arrested or anything. He killed the murderers, then wandered off, eventually deciding he needed explosives. What else were the knights to think?
* The glaring absence of the gods of good in the Knighthood struck me as an attempt by the Neutrals to expand as well, or at least Shinare. Without Paladin, it may be that Shinare is attempting to strengthen the ranks of good for her own ends.
I'm not sure how the decision to include Shinare came about, perhaps Hiddukel arranged it. Perhaps the greedy Palanthan guy did.
* Caergoth as a Priest of Hiddukuel is probably the one who appointed the priest of Shinare and thus its quite likely the man in question that he shot with his crossbow was also so.
Nightmaster's appointment was a special case by Palanthus stretching his muscles. The other Shinaran priests objected to his presence.
Like the Duke of Solanthus though, whether they really were evil or not doesn't matter. The evil knight killed them regardless.
Not that it changes his knowledge, unless he has "Detect Evil" as a Knight of the Rose (or former one)
Right.
He wasn't wronged by the knighthood really. He wasn't arrested or anything. He killed the murderers, then wandered off, eventually deciding he needed explosives. What else were the knights to think?
In the Knighthood of Solamnia, there's always been a great deal of respect for individuals to have trial before they are found guilty. Knowing the close relationship the Knight had to the late man, they should have respected his space and not jumped to conclusions. Plus, there was the fact that Sir Jaymes felt that the Knighthood had assassinated Duke Loriamar.
I'm not sure how the decision to include Shinare came about, perhaps Hiddukel arranged it. Perhaps the greedy Palanthan guy did.
Nightmaster's appointment was a special case by Palanthus stretching his muscles. The other Shinaran priests objected to his presence.
I think that the Lord Regent is definitely an evil presence in Palanthus but whether he worships an evil god or is just a very bad man is ultimately a serious question worth considering.
I do think that in the last pages of the book, the "Dukes" are confirmed to have been arranged by the Lord Regent and thus the titles they sport are entirely the gifts of the man.
It also explains how a moneychanger could be declared Regent. He's just been financing the Knighthood.
Like the Duke of Solanthus though, whether they really were evil or not doesn't matter. The evil knight killed them regardless.Right.
On this end, I'm not sure. The priest could have been viewed as extorting from a populous that really couldn't give up the money and all the Dukes WERE guilty really of various evils amongst other disgraces to the Knighthood. The Lord Regent's conspiracy I think wasn't actually one that seems to have infected the Knighthood, upon re-reading. Instead, the Lord Regent deliberately seperated the Three Orders of Knights and the miasama I originally thought had broken Solamnia is actually just a aspect of his installing the Local Lords over the three orders.
Sir Jaymes also seemed quite aware of the Three Dukes various vile acts.
Greetings, Mr Niles!
Just finished Lord of the Roses and I was wondering what was your vision of the knighthood after the War of Souls?
The knighthood seems to have split in three almost separate and independent groups, something that is different from what we were told in previous books where there was a progression in the knighthood (Crown, Sword and Rose).
In Lord of the Roses, I didn't feel that the Rose knights were "superior" to Sword or Crown knights (in the hierarchy of the knighthood). I actually felt that the knights were now accepted directly in an order based on their allegiance to a duke. Is my perception wrong? If not, is this something that will be addressed in the other 2 books?
Hi Bobo,
I know that in many sources the knighthood has been presented as a progression of orders, but I have to say I have never really viewed it that way myself. From the War of the Lance, and on, I thought it made much more sense for a knight to advance through the heirarchy of his own order, and achieve great status if he makes it to Master status. I have never articulated this, as such; it's just always been the way I viewed, from the days of Sturm Brightblade and on, in my own mind. Of course, Krynn is a game world and Krynn is also a setting for novels. Sometimes, what makes for a good game can be kind of clunky in fiction, and vice versa. So, in a nutshell, your perception is exactly right.
While I would like to see the different Orders given distinction and uniqueness, I think they should still be seen how they always have been, as a brotherhood that requires you to go through Crown to get to Sword to get to Rose. Making them into very seperate Orders that barely have any love for the others just doesnt make sense. Even if you always have wanted to be a Rose and balue them above all else, you still had to progress through Crown and Sword. I would assume at least *most* knights would have respect for the others in the other Orders. The Orders have never been in "competition" with eachother and that is how it has come off in his book. To me, it seems alien and thats what rubs me the wrong way. In every other book, whether I've liked the story or not, the Knighthood has been detailed a certain way, regardless of the story. And in this book, all of a sudden that Knighthood is vastly different and doesnt even resemble anything like what it did. I cant even buy the "well times are tough and they have degenerated into tho..." because there is practically *nothing* that resembles the original Knighthood.
Who knows.. *****ing about it and bringing it all up again wont change things, and I pray people are right when they say "Just wait for the second and third book, you never know". I hope that they can look back at these threads and say "See we told you so".. but my fear is that this wont happen, and the new Knighthood will become Dragonlance canon.
That interview bothered me in more ways than one... but eh.. it happens. He apparantly pleases some people. I'm just glad I'm not the only one who has concerns about the trilogy.
If you read the whole thing you can actually find an instance or two where he basically just points out he writes what he feels Dragonlance should be, not really worried about how its been in the past. To me, that is one of the biggest problems in his novels. The Knighthood reflects this from what he has said, and I find that sad. While every author has freedom to add things he or she wishes, there should be at least some attempt to go along with what has been done in the past. "Reinventing" people or organizations is a huge problem *to me*. Others like where the Knighthood has ended up and enjoy the guy's books immensely. To me, they are a slap in the face to cannon and it bothers me to even see it.
With all due respect to Mr. Niles, I'm going to agree with True_Blue on this statement. Dragonlance is a shared world, and as such, continuity must be maintained. Whether he disagrees with how the knighthood is portrayed is irrelevant.
What happens then if every author took this approach, and each one portrayed the knighthood slightly differently? You would end up with a patchwork view of the Knights of Solamnia, one that would cause confusion amongst fans.
I can understand that some things have changed with the recent turbulent times. At the same time, no organization is as traditionalist as the Knights of Solamnia. Change does not come easy to them, and I just can't see them throwing out the very structure of their organization without some major changes.
You know, I recently reread a lot of the first two trilogies, and it's amazing just how much of the original presentation of the KoS people tend to forget. In Winter Night the entire knighthood was pretty much politically split along lines of the three orders. Granted it wasn't as extensive as it is in Lord of the Rose, however it was definitely there, and definitely a clear divisiveness in Sancrist (which tends to be established as the stronghold of Solamnic unity and leadership). The precedent was certainly always there, and in my mind cheapens the arguments that the orders are just three stages of a single path.
Chronicles isn't exactly the best example of how the Knights of Solamnia should be. They were small in numbers at that time, and politically split. Rivalry can exist between orders, sure. Changing the very structure of the orders, though, is a no-no.
Many people think that all knights progress through all three orders and end up in the Order of the Rose. This is a fallacy. To Doug's credit, he sees the problem, though it seems that he's looking for a solution that's not needed. He separates out the orders so that a person could advance to the top of their order without advancing to a new order.
The thing is, one can and often does advance throughout their own order without advancing to the next order. Some knights are called to be warriors, some are called to be spiritual leaders, and some are called to be nobles. Every individual within the Knights of Solamnia has their place.
To quote the DLCS:
However, not all knights do to strive for that pinnacle of achievement, and not all who wish to are allowed to.
The knighthood is designed so that those knights who are not ready for the Orders of the Sword of Rose do not advance.
The point is, one can advance throughout their own order without advancing to another order. I feel like Mr. Niles has seen the misconception behind advancing through the knighthood, and applied his own solution based on his own views (and not continuity), when such a solution was not needed.
Wizards' Conclave was a fast read for me, and I enjoyed it. I really wanted to enjoy this series as well, being a huge fan of the knighthood. Yet I find it extremely difficult to when continuity has been set aside.
Again, this is with all due respect to Mr. Niles.
Our first experience of the manner of knightly advancement comes in Dragonlance Adventures. Prior to this, as Andre' says, there is extensive proof of a separation between the Orders that is blurred during the Age of Despair because of the scarcity of knights and vacancy of key positions in the Orders. In the original adventure modules, all three Orders are given more or less equal footing; Derek shows up as Lord of the Rose and his colleague, Gunthar, is Lord of the Crown. Obviously, some of this changes later (it's important to note that Gunthar is never addressed or identified as a Rose knight in Chronicles!) but Doug wrote several of the modules in which the knights appear and figure strongly, so he's fully aware of their original status.
In DLA, we learn that the three Orders are aligned with the three gods Habbakuk, Kiri-Jolith, and Paladine, and that Kiri-Jolith grants the Sword knights spells. This is the first time we hear about spellcasting, but it's presented as a fairly minor thing - more along the lines of an AD&D paladin. This makes sense as DLA uses the Unearthed Arcana structure of classes, making the Solamnic knights cavalier subclasses (which is what paladins were in 1st edition post-UA). Note that Rose Knights don't cast spells in DLA.
Examining the way the class progression works in DLA, it's clear that it operates as follows. Crown knights advance to 2nd level, and when they earn enough XP to become 3rd level, they decide if they want to stay Crown knights (forever, not just for the time being) or undertake a quest and enter the Order of the Sword. If they do that, they advance to 3rd level, and when they earn enough XP to advance to 4th level they can once again decide to either stay as Sword knights (forever!) or undertake another quest and become a Rose knight.
So what's going on here? Well, it's a series of initation periods, beginning with a squiring in the Crown order, followed by religious instruction in the Sword, and finally noble training and advancement in the Rose order. Crown knights get one chance to become Sword knights, and Sword knights get once chance to become Rose knights. This is even reflected in the old-fashioned 1st edition AD&D level titles:
1st Crown: Squire of the Crown
2nd Crown: Defender of the Crown
3rd (the lowest level) Sword: Novice of Swords
4th (the lowest level) Rose: Novice of Roses
It seems to me that the point of departure from Chronicles began in DLA (with spellcasting paladin-like Sword knights, and the initiation periods that seem to imply advancement through the Orders) and then continued to steer away from the novels with Tales of the Lance which did not specifically rule out changing Orders later in level. To be fair, TOTL changed a number of things from DLA, including how the Wizards of High Sorcery worked, which races could be which classes, etc. This was in part 2nd edition AD&D's influence, but I think the rest amounts to a sort of vague misunderstanding.
SAGA Fifth Age really cements the advancement and spellcasting notions of the Knights, and for the first time states that Rose knights are necessarily better spellcasters than Sword knights. We can chalk this up to the new rules, or perhaps the way things worked when the Solamnics had to use mysticism. I'm not sure, but it's another step away from how it originally worked.
And so, back around again to Doug Niles and Lord of the Rose. He has three Orders, no specific interdependence outside of their brotherhood under the banner of the Kingfisher, etc. Is this a drastic change? Not really. Perhaps the greatest and most drastic change is the evolution of the gaming rules for the Solamnic knights from elite cavaliers to spellcasting cleric-knights, never truly reflecting any incidence in the novels, and creating a sharp and distinct disconnect between game product and book product.
Cheers,
Cam
Let me say that I have no problem with the Knighthood "falling", etc.. I can undersatnd how it can happen and it opens up many things in the Dragonlance world. Its not the way I would go, but I realize others like to see the Knighthood keep being "down". Thats fine, it happens. My dislike is for the simple fact that Douglas's Knights dont resemble Solamnic Knights in any way, shape, or form. In the Chronicles, while the *people* were divided, you still saw respect for each Order, and everyone followed the Measure, while touting off the Oath. In Lord of the Rose, any of the Knightly distinctions were thrown in there as an afterthought. Any mention to the Measure was pure cosmetic, there wasnt any Knights who seemed to actually think about the Measure. Even in Chronicles, they followed the Measure to a T.
While some people could argue that "well maybe now its the reverse".. seriously.. in this book..did you really see much that said to you.. these are Solamnic Knights? If you took out them being referenced as Solamnic Knights, they pitiful few references to the Measure(not even sure of the Oath was mentioned)... would you have recognized these people as being Solamnic Knights? I vehemently believe that people would just assume it was some fractured organization that had no loyalty to the divisions in itself, who are power hungry, and basically dont have any honor. Where did we see any form of honor? Not even the main character had much to tout about.. and we were supposed to cheer for him. In almoste very single other novel or game book, if you showed me an example and took out all the words that were related to Solamnic, I bet you most of the time I could point out that "Hey thats a Knight of Solamnia!". I mean seriously, they were collectively wrong, evil, not caring, etc in this book... and it was horrible just to read it.
When I opened up the DLCS and saw the Rose knight PrC, I was horrified also. To me, it was just plain wrong to give them spellcasting. But just because this error has happened, is it all right to let others happen.. because eh..theres a worse error, it'll be all right.. I dont like this line of thinking. It causes many more continuity problems.. and seeing the guy straight up say that he makes things how he wants to... while saying that in *many* sources its been presented different.. just boggles my mind. It wouldnt be so bad, if I just thought I could leave the book to gather dust on my shelves. The fact that SP could go the same route with it, is just scary. I hope others are right when they keep the faith that the next two books will resolve it. I have a lack of faith, I'll admit it.
Anymore, I've started to grow a big dislike for some of the authors. While some of them write very good books, other ones mess with so many things that I just sit and wonder why they do it. Its as if each one wants to make their "mark".. instead of realizing how many fans are out there who like the world the way it is. You dont need to keep changing it. Thats why, personally, I'd rather just see the people who work at SP start becoming authors. Let them make the novels. In the past year and a half theres been more things that have been "fixed" then ever. They actually go out of their way to *fix* continuity problems, instead of make more. Doesnt it bother any of you when you see thing after thing changed for no other reason than the author is popular and will get support no matter what? And then you have to come along and fix it.. to me thats just a shame. Will you be fixing Dragonlance inconsistancies for the rest of your career..or will you have the opportunity to keep making new and exciting things that expand the world? Thats the big question... heck even if you fix all the old ones, new ones are popping up..
Now Cam you say that this book really hasnt changed the Knights.. do you really believe that? Is this the way you envisioned the Knighthood? If so, then maybe some of us are the wrong ones and only a few people are privvy to the "real" Knighthood. I dunno..people can argue that this is a "down" period for them and all that.. but *to me*, the way they were written wasnt a "period" kind of thing. While some things can be excused because of them being "down", just the structure, the organization as a whole, etc came off as a total rehall. And it shocked me..as most people can tell.
I personally would welcome with open arms material that elaborates the differences between the Orders, makes them into more equal footing and not just a step ladder, etc. But while this goes on, come on.. each order hates the other one, does things to *get* to them, etc? I dont think so... I just cant see it being that huge of curruption, no matter what is going on. To me the whole organization went through a rehaul.
Do i dislike Douglas Niles? No..it may come off that way, but I dont. This kind of thing actually started with Wizard's Conclave, at least for me. While enjoying the book, many of the things just didnt sit right. I mean they just seemed... wrong.. for lack of a better word. And now I kind of know why, when he commented how he makes his books how he envisions the world, not what exactly is said in past products. I'm actually worried that more authors will take this approach..and its not good for fans who like consistancy. I have a dislike for the Linsha trilogy that might border on unholy, but I would take any of those books hand down before Lord of the Rose. I seriously fumed about Lord of the Rose, which is childish and pretty scary at 24 years of age. Had several people tell me to shut up about it, on the boards and in real life heh. I've accepted the fact that there really isnt much I can do about it heh..it happens. I'm just always happy to see comments from some of the others who work on Dragonlance products because maybe, just maybe.. thoughts will get heard and more things like this wont happen.
I actually wonder if the Knights from Sancrist, etc were left out on accident(maybe he didnt read the other books who actually detailed them)..and now will be used to "fix" this little problem. While this would accomplish the task, I find it unsettling it had to be done in the first place. Do you guys believ eht Sancrist Knights will be seen as the "regular" knights and the others are kind of "currupted" ones? I think I saw someone suggest that somewhere. Alas... who knows
Thats why, personally, I'd rather just see the people who work at SP start becoming authors. Let them make the novels.
I'm a game designer, not a novelist!
In the past year and a half theres been more things that have been "fixed" then ever. They actually go out of their way to *fix* continuity problems, instead of make more. Doesnt it bother any of you when you see thing after thing changed for no other reason than the author is popular and will get support no matter what?
I really don't see this as being the reason. Honestly. Nobody has that big of an ego. The authors write good stories, it's what they've always done. There are inconsistencies on occasion, but then the game designers of the past have been guilty of worse from time to time.
Now Cam you say that this book really hasnt changed the Knights.. do you really believe that? Is this the way you envisioned the Knighthood? If so, then maybe some of us are the wrong ones and only a few people are privvy to the "real" Knighthood. I dunno..people can argue that this is a "down" period for them and all that.. but *to me*, the way they were written wasnt a "period" kind of thing. While some things can be excused because of them being "down", just the structure, the organization as a whole, etc came off as a total rehall. And it shocked me..as most people can tell.
No, I don't think the knights in this book are "true" knights, whatever that means, but I do think the book has set up a state for the Orders that the rest of the trilogy will work towards changing. I think we're supposed to look at them and, given what we know of legendary heroes like Huma and Sturm, wonder what's happened to them to make them so secular. I don't think they resemble the prestige classes from the game, but I do think they resemble knights of previous novels, and I think for some reason we look back at previous novels with rose-colored glasses. Pun intended.
Cheers,
Cam
No, I don't think the knights in this book are "true" knights, whatever that means, but I do think the book has set up a state for the Orders that the rest of the trilogy will work towards changing. I think we're supposed to look at them and, given what we know of legendary heroes like Huma and Sturm, wonder what's happened to them to make them so secular. I don't think they resemble the prestige classes from the game, but I do think they resemble knights of previous novels, and I think for some reason we look back at previous novels with rose-colored glasses. Pun intended.
Cheers,
Cam
This is exactly true. This is hardly the first time we've been introduced to the Knighthood in a state that is 'shameful' compared to the original ideals it was founded on. This is not the first time we've been introduced to knights that we despise in terms of personality and actions. This will likely not be the last time. This novel sets up a circumstance and a status that the knights are currently in and the rest of the trilogy will work to 'resolve' this situation.
Also, what the heck is wrong with things being different and wrong with change? If you want your setting to remain static then 'ignore' what is being released and create things for yourself. I personally 'like' the gods Paladine and Takhisis. In my personal game world I may seek a way for them to somehow still be active or become active once again. Does this mean that I feel that the changes that have taken place in the setting are wrong? No. Evolution is fine. Change is fine. Re-interpeting outdated material for modern audiences is also fine. It's fine to hold onto 'classic beliefs' but as Cam pointed out, the way the Knights have worked in both gaming conventions and novel conventions have always fluxed and adapated to suit its present audiences. This is true, honestly, for all of Dragonlance. It's not a setting or a story for 'one' viewpoint where things stay static and unchanged.
Anyways, during the Chronicles the Knighthood had fallen, but we still saw all the quintessential parts that make up the Knighthood. In Lord of the Rose, *I* believe we see nothing that distinguishes them as Knights of Solamnia. There was no love for the other orders, doing good didnt seem to be on the agenda (at all, which is amazing), the Measure was never brought up as something to live by, cant even remember if the Oath was ever mentioned, the spirituality of Sword knights and others with peity to Kiri-Jolith was never mentioned or alluded to, etc. I'm sure there is a lot more that defines the Knighthood, I just dont feel like elaborating to go into everything.
My point being that its almost like he just made up an army, and then called them Knights of Solamnia later on. None of the trappings, the mood, tone, etc even matched to what we know of the Knights of Solamnia. In this, I realize that others may disagree and think that they seemed like Knights to them. Thats fine.. but to me.. I found it vastly lacking. Even throughout the Chronicles you for the "feel" of the Knighthood. I wish I could elaborate more, but words escape me right now to discribe it. If anyone else knows what I mean and can elaborate, feel free.
To me, and this is my opionion, it would be like him coming along and saying White Robes really wear Pink, all Red Robes are women, and Black Robes all worship Chemosh. Some of the ways the Knighthood was described just went against everything that we know of. And lots of things were just mysteriously left out. It left me with an empty feeling reading about them. I just kept sitting there stuttering, saying "but but but.. what about this..what about that..", etc. Its almost like he "reinvented" things as he went, without worrying about everything that came before him. As I said, the authors should feel free to make plot hooks, expand on things, etc... but canon should be adhered to.
Again, I'm not talking about the "story" at all here in the book. To me, that is secondary to the apparant changes to the organization. Others think that the Knighthood was represented just fine and had no problem with it. Thats fine.. to each their own. But I will reiterate, it does worry me when an author basically he says he does things the way he sees it, and isnt too worried about past products. This isnt a diss to him, just pointing out I'm not a big fan of this line of thinking. While new authors are out trying to do their homework and get input from previous authors, there may be more who just do what they want on their own. I realize what the guy has written for Dragonlance, and I realize to a lot of people he is a god, thats cool. But i'm not above holding anyone accountable.
I never try to kiss ass because a lot of times I find it a waste of time. If I think someone is doing a good job, I try to point it out when its relevent. If i feel someone is doing something wrong, I try to mention it in hopes that maybe it was just an error and more thought is brought into future products. When I mention that the SP people should write the novels, it is because I have seen a lot of "team playing" on their part since they have been doing Dragonlance products. They actually seem to be concerned about keeping things consistant and actually seem to respond when the fans outcry over something. I find this a *must* in any good product. I frequent the D&D Miniatures boards a lot also, and the designers there seem to really value customer input also. I love this aspect.
Forgotten Realms in the past few years has been patched up little by little, trying to make things more consistant and I feel this is in part because a lot of the fans anymore demand it. They outcry really fast if new things reference the wrong things, and I think this in turn keeps the FR designers on their toes and actually improves their products. As I said, the SP people seem to be doing the same thing, and they are able to do it even better because Dragonlance isnt as *vast* as FR. I like this a lot.
It just bothers me to see established authors who seem not to want to "team play". That is their perogative, there isnt much that I can do. But I can voice concerns and hope it changes.
I dunno.. oh well heh
Also, what the heck is wrong with things being different and wrong with change?
There's nothing wrong with change. The thing is, though, that there's nothing explaining how we got from point a to point b. This isn't change so much as it is reinvention based on one's personal bias.
If Niles had said, "After the War of Souls, the very nature of the orders changed, this happened, that happened, Habbakuk went on vacation, Shinare stopped by to sell encyclopedias, etc. etc." - that would have been fine.
That didn't happen, though, so we have a big contradiction between this novel and the structure of the orders, which has been in place since DLA.
Evolution of organizations through story is good. Reinvention due to personal bias without explanation is not.
I seem to be in the minority of wanting to see Knights in shining armor, doing good, pious, etc.
Count me in that minority as well.
I don't think the knighthood has to be perfect by any means. However, I don't feel that they've truly had a chance to shine after Chronicles. I think we are long overdue for this, especially where the Sword Knights are concerned.
By the way, I should mention that there was one character who, thus far, seems very knightly to me in Lord of the Rose (note that I'm still reading the novel). That's Selinda du Chagne. She seems to be out for justice, and that includes fair trials. I can respect that, and that certainly is a knightly virtue.
That didn't happen, though, so we have a big contradiction between this novel and the structure of the orders, which has been in place since DLA.
I think this is the point in contention.
Cheers,
Cam
I seem to be in the minority of wanting to see Knights in shining armor, doing good, pious, etc
I must be a minority too. The knights haven't had any time to shine for themselves, except maybe a little bit in Summer Flame, but then they got whupped, so it doesn't have as good effect as it should.
I also would have liked to have read about the retaking of Palanthus, not just a mention in a paragraph in the intro of the book. Seems to me that there so far have been less important things written about, and that the taking of Palanthus should have been one of the major turning points in the story
I also would have liked to have read about the retaking of Palanthus, not just a mention in a paragraph in the intro of the book. Seems to me that there so far have been less important things written about, and that the taking of Palanthus should have been one of the major turning points in the story
That's more of what I wanted to see in this series.
What I wanted was to show how bad off Solamnia was after Khellendros and the Dark Knights had been in their lands. I wanted to see a Rose Knight rise from the ranks (perhaps in the wake of Liam Ehrling's death), and take control of the knighthood. I wanted to see him uniting the factions, and working on slowly driving the Dark Knights out.
I would have wanted such a man to work towards restoring honor. This isn't to say that he has to be the next Huma or Sturm, but he should have a good sense of honor.
I wanted to see the transition from mysticism back to the worship of Kiri-Jolith for the Sword Knights. I wanted to see just what it meant to be a Sword Knight. I wanted to see how Kiri-Jolith would step up to take over after Paladine became mortal, and I wanted to see how Habbakuk would have handled things - whether he would still be active, or step back. Having Mishakal involved is fine, as she is Paladine's wife and mother to Kiri-Jolith and Habbakuk.
Plus, what of the ruins of Dargaard Keep? What of the High Clerist's Tower?
These are the types of things I wanted to see, and I didn't. I'm not saying the knighthood would have to be perfect, but I did want to see them actively working to restore themselves to what they were becoming post-WotL.
Really, upon thinking about this, I know who I would have liked to see write this series - Richard Knaak. I know he's busy with the minotaurs right now, but he understands the very heart of honor. He did great with Legend of Huma, and I think that same magic would have shown here as well.
And don't get me wrong, I do like Niles' writing. Even if I do disagree with his portrayal of the knighthood, he is a good author. I'm just not certain he was the right author for this particular series.
Really, upon thinking about this, I know who I would have liked to see write this series - Richard Knaak. I know he's busy with the minotaurs right now, but he understands the very heart of honor. He did great with Legend of Huma, and I think that same magic would have shown here as well.
And don't get me wrong, I do like Niles' writing. Even if I do disagree with his portrayal of the knighthood, he is a good author. I'm just not certain he was the right author for this particular series.
I love Knaak too, Dragonhelm, but Niles has shown that he has as good an understanding of honour as Knaak, just read the Ashataway section of Kagonesti and you will see what I mean. Sir Kamford is in fact one of my favorite knights, right up there with Huma
and Gareth . I understand your disappointment and I was hoping to some of the things you mentioned too but I do like Lord of the Rose as it is and I have faith in Niles authorial skills that he will explain the various situaions in Solamnia and connect them to what is going on in the rest of the continent. I believe Niles has too tightly focused his field of vision on Solamnia forgetting that it is a part of world and not a singular identity, probably because he fears to tread on other authors toes in other parts of the world, but like I said, I have faith. Of course, this is just my humble opinion....:fight!:
but like I said, I have faith.
Thanks for the pick-me-up. Usually I'm a lot more positive than this.
I'm going to keep reading this series and see how it goes. Even if Niles continues to portray the orders the way he does, maybe the story will be a decent one and we'll see a return to honor for the knighthood.
And I know what you mean about the Sword Knights and Kiri-Jolith...how many sword knights have EVER cast a spell in a DL novel? None that I've read, but all along they've had the power to do so.
Shinare? Oooooooook, Habbakuk is out of the triumverant (sp?) now, to be replaced by the merchant god??? Hmmmm, don't get it. So much for tradition/the Measure I guess? I didn't know the revised measure (because I haven't had a chance to read it all yet..)said anything about taking in 2 new gods to replace a mortal one and one that's still around and now has a much more limited scope in his portfolio. Although I understand Mishakal, but Shinare? Goes to show what is most important these days. Maybe we need a new prestige class-the Solamnic Loan-Shark-in-Shining-Armor...
yea the calling of eachother by city names was really annoying. I know some people dont have a problem with the book because they see the changes as like some kind of natural occurance. Like the knighthood degenerated over time that way. But to me, the book doesnt really give that effect. It almost seems like he reinvented the knights, instead of showing their gradual decline (yet once again *sigh*..). I just dont see any of the things that we tend to associate the Knighthood with in this book. Its just very frustrating.
yea the calling of eachother by city names was really annoying.
This was extremely common in aristocratic societies, where a Lord is given a title and is referred to by that title. The Dukes of Essex and York were known as Essex and York despite what their given names were. At one time, you can be certain that this was the case for many knights of Solamnia who were also landed nobles (the two are not synonymous - you can be a knight and not also be landed aristocracy), especially before the Cataclysm. Brightblade, MarKennin, etc are all family names with ties to ancestral estates, too, so it would have been perfectly proper to refer to Bayard Brightblade as Vingaard if he was named the Lord of that castle and its lands.
What is new is the elevation of lord knights to the title of Duke, which I believe was instituted by the Solamnic lord knights (and DuChagne) when they retook the Solamnic plains from the Nerakans. There was probably a Duke of Caergoth in the distant past, but hadn't been one for hundreds of years until the current duke was installed there by his conquering father.
Cheers,
Cam
Well technically there has been a short story about a Sword knight who prayed for spells.
The only instance that I can recall is in Dragons of Summer Flame. Perhaps there's another source as well that I'm not aware of.
I dont remember exactly which book it is in, but he talked about how he had to pray for the week to get his spells that Kiri-Jolith provides. This was written to go along with the 2nd edition rules where Sword knights only got spells once a week, so they had to conserve them throughout the week. Personally I dont find that idea so bad, but who knows.
I like the idea of them praying only once a week as that mixes it up a bit. Having weekly spells instead of daily...not sure. Good flavor, but a pain to plan. If a character has cleric levels, then he should follow the cleric rules.
I think it would be really weird to see a Rose knight cast spells, I just find it too foreign.
There was a time that I thought Rose Knights should have spells. It didn't make sense to me that Rose Knights couldn't do what knights in lower orders could do. I did want it at half progression, though, so as to not take away from the Sword Knights.
These days, I'm really seeing how the Sword Knight suffers if the Rose Knights can cast spells. They lose their "niche". Personally, I'd rather get back to the original idea of the Crown Knights being the warriors, Sword being the cleric side, and Rose being the leaders. I'm hoping the Knights of Solamnia will see some revision down the road.
yea the calling of eachother by city names was really annoying.
I think Cam sums this up pretty well. It doesn't bother me so much.
I know some people dont have a problem with the book because they see the changes as like some kind of natural occurance. Like the knighthood degenerated over time that way. But to me, the book doesnt really give that effect. It almost seems like he reinvented the knights, instead of showing their gradual decline (yet once again *sigh*..).
It feels forced. Sorta like, "Here you go, forget what you knew, here's how things are from now on."
What it reminds me of is the Dragons of a New Age trilogy. The transition wasn't there. There was a time jump and then BLAM! There you are.
I just dont see any of the things that we tend to associate the Knighthood with in this book. Its just very frustrating.
Agreed.
In some ways, I've been feeling pretty frustrated with the Knights of Solamnia in general lately. I'm finding that I like the WotL prestige classes a bit better than the DLCS versions, though in truth, no single PrC really does it for me. I'm thinking I might tackle a variant myself just to get it the way I want.
EDIT: Cam, like the new avatar.
example: Excuse, me Lord, may I have a minute of your time?---or----
Hey, East Alton, wassup??
Not that anyone who is ruling somewhere should be subjected to a wassup, but calling someone by WHERE they live seems more informal to me.
What do you think, Lee's Summit? :P
Ok, I didn't know that about the cities with the names and all that, but if I was the ruler of somewhere, I'd rather be called sir, Lord, or something like that-it has a better ring to it.
example: Excuse, me Lord, may I have a minute of your time?---or----
Hey, East Alton, wassup??
Not that anyone who is ruling somewhere should be subjected to a wassup, but calling someone by WHERE they live seems more informal to me.
What do you think, Lee's Summit? :P
I think my in-laws live suspiciously close to you. :P :D
I've had many a talks lately with my little brother trying to figure out the knighthood, how the members act, what the Measure entails, how to deal with a knight who you think is doing something wrong, etc. Its been interesting to say the least. I just would *love* a Knight sourcebook that could go a little bit more in detail about things. But I realize this wont happen until after the trilogy. It makes it even worse when I dont want any of the trilogy in the sourcebook heh. So I dunno, I've basically resigned myself to the fact that my carefree days of just taking everything out of the books and playing things by what they say are over. Anymore I'm way too opinionated about worlds and how I perceive them. I used to think it was just a Dragonlance thing, but I've noticed myself do the same with other worlds also. Basically I want them run how *I* see them... The Solamnics, Knights of Neraka, WoHS, etc... heh sometimes I just find people's "vision" of them so wrong.. which probably isnt good.. but eh what can you do.
Dragonhlem, I *know* there's a short story somewhere that had a Sword knight with a keep that talked about praying for spells. I know it. I think it might have been in the Dragon anthologies, maybe the one about the Chaos War. I just know its somewhere.. for some certain stories stick out, I think because they are unique. Kind of like in the one Istar book where a Cleric of Takhisis resurrects a Knight of Solamnia after both fighting in the gladiator games, or about the only known instance of a paladin in the first Dragon anthology book. Little things like this stick out, and I'm sure its there somewhere heh.
heh on a side note, I actually only live about 2 hours from raistlinrox heh. I've been to alton plenty of times, especially the casino boat there, the Alton Belle or whatever.
heh on a side note, I actually only live about 2 hours from raistlinrox heh. I've been to alton plenty of times, especially the casino boat there, the Alton Belle or whatever.
Whereabouts do you live, True? Maybe when Trampas is down visiting his in-laws we could get together for a game! lol
where do your in-laws live Mr. Helm?
By the way, True, that boat is horrendous (sp?) looking, isn't it? they need a new paintjob.....
I would love to see a "transition" book or series, but then again, maybe I dont because I'm not exactly a big fan of how they are portrayed.
Maybe it's best to leave well enough alone.
And I'm not talking about being "fallen", just in general. I'm personally hoping for this series to be lost in obscurity and no one really ever pay attention to it in future products. Will this happen.. who knows. Its my hope though.
I doubt it with this being a recent trilogy. It would have to be some years down the road with something superceding it.
I just would *love* a Knight sourcebook that could go a little bit more in detail about things. But I realize this wont happen until after the trilogy. It makes it even worse when I dont want any of the trilogy in the sourcebook heh.
I'm not sure how a knights sourcebook would deal with this series. Perhaps some notes on characters and such. Maybe a knights sourcebook could help "bridge the gap", so to speak.
So I dunno, I've basically resigned myself to the fact that my carefree days of just taking everything out of the books and playing things by what they say are over. Anymore I'm way too opinionated about worlds and how I perceive them. I used to think it was just a Dragonlance thing, but I've noticed myself do the same with other worlds also. Basically I want them run how *I* see them... The Solamnics, Knights of Neraka, WoHS, etc... heh sometimes I just find people's "vision" of them so wrong.. which probably isnt good.. but eh what can you do.
Everyone has a different vision, too. I find as I get older that I don't take stories wholesale without questioning things some. I think my interest in writing is partially to blame for this. Maybe I've been involved with fandom too much too. ;)
The good news is that we can portray the elements of DL we like as we wish in our own games, so that's an outlet. The problem comes when we read a series that portrays an element in a way that we don't like. That's why I try to look at DL as tales the bards tell and not the absolute truth. I find the gaming sourcebooks work better for setting the foundation.
Dragonhlem, I *know* there's a short story somewhere that had a Sword knight with a keep that talked about praying for spells. I know it. I think it might have been in the Dragon anthologies, maybe the one about the Chaos War.
I don't doubt you one bit. If you find out which one it is, let me know. I'd like to read it.
Whereabouts do you live, True? Maybe when Trampas is down visiting his in-laws we could get together for a game! lol
So long as I don't have to DM. lol
where do your in-laws live Mr. Helm?
Currently they live in the Wood River area, though they just bought a new house and are moving to Collinsville. Maybe I can sneak out to one of those tournaments True_Blue is talking about. lol
Ever had Charlie's root beer? It's the bomb-diggety
I live in Macomb, IL.. I go to WIU - Western Illinois University. Its literally like 2 hours to get to you heh. I go to St Louis all the time, I grew up going there. My girlfriend has family that lives in Troy, IL right around there also. I've thought about going to Collinsville a few times because they have D&DMiniatures tournaments there, and thats my new love. I'd love to game sometime.. give me a time and I'd be there heh.
I used to date a girl from Troy..
Wow, I used to live in Wood River for more than 20 years. I wonder if I know them.... that would be kinda cool if I did. Have you ever lived this way? Your pic on the DL boards does look slightly familiar...
Let me PM you so we don't derail this thread any fruther. ;)
Ever had Charlie's root beer? It's the bomb-diggety
No I haven't.