On to the project at hand: This is something that I've been wanting to do for the better part of five years and I now finally have the time to do it. Some of the following is already written, but I want to see what you all, the community, have to say about it. Let's hear your ideas and thoughts on what this should be.
A quick overview of my idea is to make a Planar Handbook for Athas. Also being a Planescape GM back in the day, I'm wanting to make this more similar to those books than the 3e books, which can be a bit clinical. The book itself will be split into two parts. The first part will be aimed at GMs and Players and will be mostly fluff and character information. The second part is aimed more at GMs and will have more specific information and rules. The switch is obvious in the outline below, but I added a "___" just to clarify.
Here Goes:
I. Foreword.
II. Introduction
[INDENT]A. Overview of the book and chapter descriptions.[/INDENT]
III. The Planes of Athas.
[INDENT]A. General overview of the planes and their place in the cosmology.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]B. Brief history shedding light on the Elemental Lords and their roll in things (which is significant since this is from the POV of an earth cleric - Lord of Mud (aka Silt) plays a roll in "helping Rajaat," who nearly kills them both and forever corrupts Mud/Silt). Whether this history is accurate or not is left up to the reader.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]C. Short story (less than a page, I think) about someone going to the planes.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]D. Travel to the Planes.
[INDENT]1. This will basically just cover the ways that you can get there. So: the Gray, Communing, Vortexes, Pure Elements, the Black, Spells, Powers, and Shrines.[/INDENT][/INDENT]
[INDENT]E. Quick shot of each plane.
[INDENT]1. This will not go into a great deal of detail since each plane has a section devoted to it later. This will be more aimed at players whereas the later section is more aimed at GMs. I'm thinking of setting it up very similar to the one-page deals in the DM's guide for Planescape:
[INDENT]a) Description (one or two sentences to get the "feel")[/INDENT]
[INDENT]b) Features (describes the plane and maybe a few personalities)[/INDENT]
[INDENT]c) Hearsay (a few adventure hooks, maybe one or two)[/INDENT] [/INDENT]
[INDENT]2. The Gray and Black would also be included here and maybe a hint or two about things living in the Black (I liked that Cthulu idea - maybe they're remnants of other Power's memories? Dunno, yet - haven't gotten that far).[/INDENT][/INDENT]
IV. Those of the Planes.
[INDENT] A. This section will be devoted to Characters and Classes involved in the planes.
[INDENT]1. Clerics, Templars, Druids, Psions, Mages.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]2. Introduce Elemental Champion Class.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]3. Introduce Elemental, Paraelemental, & Quasielemental Priests.
[/INDENT]
[INDENT]4. Introduce Gray and Black Priests.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]5. Introduce Prestige Classes.
[INDENT]a. Wanderer[/INDENT]
[INDENT]b. Guardian[/INDENT]
[INDENT]c. City Priest[/INDENT]
[INDENT]d. Shaman[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]
[INDENT]B. New Player Races.
[INDENT]1. Ruvoka.
[INDENT]a. Still debating this one.[/INDENT][/INDENT]
[INDENT]2. Half-elemental[/INDENT][/INDENT]
[INDENT]C. General encounters on each of the planes.[/INDENT]
V. The Elemental Planes.
[INDENT]A. The Plane of Air, Water, Earth, Fire.
[INDENT]a. Conditions[/INDENT]
[INDENT]b. Locations[/INDENT]
[INDENT]c. Personalities[/INDENT][/INDENT]
VI. The Paraelemental Planes
[INDENT]A. The Plane of Sun, Magma, Silt, Rain.
[INDENT]a. Conditions[/INDENT]
[INDENT]b. Locations[/INDENT]
[INDENT]c. Personalities[/INDENT][/INDENT]
(special note: the quasielemental planes will be included with the associated plane that has the most influence, so "Vacuum" would actually be associated with Sun, and not Air, as would Radiance).
VII. The Gray.
[INDENT]A. Description.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]B. Conditions.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]C. Locations.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]D. Personalities.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]E. Encounters.[/INDENT]
VIII. The Black
[INDENT]A. Description.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]B. Conditions.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]C. Locations.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]D. Personalities.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]E. Encounters.[/INDENT]
(Note: Will also include information on the Hollow, but only in passing. Being near the Hollow is exceedingly dangerous as Rajaat can influence the nearby Black, and his thoughts have become very dangerous indeed.
IX. The Veil
(Note: this may roll into the Gray Chapter if I can't get enough info out of it)
[INDENT]A. Description.
[INDENT]1. An "impassible" barrier that bars passage to the outerplanes, the astral plane, and the ethereal planes.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]2. Jurgan will try to explain why it's there, but doesn't really know.[/INDENT][/INDENT]
[INDENT]B. How to get past it, how to get back.[/INDENT]
[INDENT]C. Locations.
[INDENT]1. This will mostly cover the known ways across the veil, such as Dregoth's Mirror, certain specific vortexes, etc.[/INDENT][/INDENT]
X. Spells
(note: have to have new spells for both Clerics and Mages. Should be mostly Black and Gray specific).
XI. Powers
(note: same as Spells)
XII. Creatures of the Planes.
[INDENT]A. Nothing too fantastic here, just thinking of a few monsters that would fit well in the Athasian cosmology. I was thinking a twisted Astral Dreadnaught would be a good fit for the Black.[/INDENT]
Let's hear it; tear it apart, guys. What would you like to see that you don't see above (it actually might be in my notes but not included, but I can't have thought of everything)? What is in there that you don't want to see and why? And so on.
Weird.
Speaking of outlines, now that I will be getting DSL again soonly at home, I need to start working on my outline for the official lifeshaped project I am about to start.
Something to ponder later definately.
Wouldn't mind getting in on making some critters and templates for your project either once you get down that road, maybe even some more PrCs.
In other words, the Plane of Earth is solid dirt and rock that goes on forever. No air spaces of any kind. In order for adventurers to go there, they'd need some kind of Xorn-like earth-melding power. The Plane is made of "normal" Earth and "elemental" Earth - to the denizens of that Plane, normal Earth is like air to us - they can see through it and move through it. Elemental Earth is solid to them - all their "stuff" is made of elemental Earth.
And so forth and so forth.
Yes: they'll be included in the "GM Section," Chapters 5 & 6. Still not sure if I'm going to stat them up or not, though. Technically speaking, these creatures should be at least on par with Rajaat and have a few divine levels. I think it might be best to go the Planescape route and simple call them "Powers" and leave it at that.
Do you have any sort of Creation Mythos for the Elemental Planes? A big bang sort of theory?
Sysane: I do have a few theories, but I'm not sure if the community at large would agree with them. I'm planning on getting around that by making them the narrator's vision and not necessarily canon. I've posted it in other threads, but they're all deeply buried. I'll keep this short:
Something escaped on the Inner Planes that threatened the Powers, some kind of "superplague" that was capable of consuming even the Powers themselves. Horrified at this, they all worked together (good and evil), to cast the blight into its own pocket diminsion. Of course, their aim wasn't perfect and large chunks of the Inner Planes were cast out with them along with their inhabitants.
The "realm" of Athas became a completely enclosed environment cut off from the multiverse at large. Certain higher ups that had become trapped when the Powers cast them away (I started by calling them mephits a few years ago, but abandoned that in favor of "powerful beings." Less controversial). Time passed and their power grew. They discovered that only by maintaining a balance were they able to survive. They created Guthay (the smaller moon), and then Ral (the larger, with an atmosphere, but not viable), and finally Athas.
Through much experimentation, they created intelligent life to worship these Lords. Their power grew as each new worshipper arrived. But the worshippers had minds of their own and the Lords began to compete for their newfound resource. The Paraelemental Lords, always the weaker of the Eight (there are no Quasielemental Lords, at this point), became desperate, seeing a chance to raise their own power in this isolated environment. They tapped into a dark realm that was all that remained of the Blight and showed it to their chosen members. They became the life-benders and were corrupted by the weakened Blight and their Paraelemental Lords.
The uprising was put down, but not before the Rhulisti released the Blight onto the world, seeking a way to destroy the life-bender's power. The Brown Tide swept the world and the Rhulisti did all they could to stop it. With the help of the Elemental Lords, the Rhulisti were able to construct several towers to focus the balance of the elements. In the center was the Pristine Tower. By focussing the energy of the sun, the Rhulisti, with the help of the Lords, were able to turn back the tide, banishing the Blight into a realm now known as the Black: a seething realm of chaos.
But the cost was high. The seas had receded in the wake of the transformed sun, and the Rhulisti were forced to move to land. The nature-benders were banished to a series of islands on the Crimson Sea, far to the Northwest. They would never be able to leave (this is in reference to the zic-chil, who cannot leave the Crimson Savannah. Their followers and creations, however...). The Rhulisti knew that the balance between the elements had to be restored and created one race for each Element and Paraelement. In the center were three races to represent neutrality.
From the Pristine Tower, the new races spread, and the Rhulisti faded into obscurity.
Rajaat came and looked for a way to bring the world back to the time of the Blue Age. He pleaded with the Elemental Lords, but was met with silence: all was in balance, now, and life was good. After much study, he turned to the Paraelemental Lords and, one by one, was rejected by them - none wanted to face the fury of the greater Elemental Lords again. But Rajaat found a toehold with Mud. Of all the Paraelements, Mud had lost the most. During the Blue Age, nearly all land had been mud and, of the paraelements, Mud was the strongest. Now, only the dim, slow-producing orks worshipped Mud, and its power had slipped away.
Rajaat knew there was untapped power to be had and knew that the Balance created by the Rhulisti would crumble in time, was already crumbling as races did not stay to their designated plan. With Mud's help, Rajaat tapped the Blight and nearly killed them both. Mud was forever changed, and driven insane by the interface. Rajaat was nearly killed in the dire fen where he had been studying. But the damage had been done: Rajaat had discovered magic.
And so on. I'm not going to include all of this in the history, or even most of it, but I am going to hint at it. As I said before, the plan is to make it conjecture so that people can decide whether or not to use it.
Dawnstealer, do you plan to picture the elemental/paraelemental planes as it was written in the Earth, Air, Fire and Water (almost like the material plane, but with overabundance of the ruling element) or the way it is described in the Manual of the Planes, and mentioned here by Korvar?
.Impressive. Most impressive.
Dawnstealer, do you plan to picture the elemental/paraelemental planes as it was written in the Earth, Air, Fire and Water (almost like the material plane, but with overabundance of the ruling element) or the way it is described in the Manual of the Planes, and mentioned here by Korvar?
...
And I thought I was being original! Guess I should read this Manual of the Planes at some point
Dawnstealer, do you plan to picture the elemental/paraelemental planes as it was written in the Earth, Air, Fire and Water (almost like the material plane, but with overabundance of the ruling element) or the way it is described in the Manual of the Planes, and mentioned here by Korvar?
My plan was to stay as faithful to canon Dark Sun material as possible, so yes, the planes will closely resemble the one-paragraph descriptions in "Earth, Air, etc."
I'd like it better if you changed Mud to Rain, but that's my own personal opinion.
Yeah, but Rain's still Rain and likely had it better during the Green Age. Mud is the only element that really completely changed, so I figured it would have to be something fairly significant.
Yeah, but Rain's still Rain and likely had it better during the Green Age. Mud is the only element that really completely changed, so I figured it would have to be something fairly significant.
Yes, but he has a pact with rain, not mud.
See PP5.
You could do both I guess, but rain needs to be mentioned too.
Yes, but he has a pact with rain, not mud.
See PP5.
You could do both I guess, but rain needs to be mentioned too.
Maybe he makes a pact with Rain, having broken Mud...
Ok, as for including the elemental lords, do so, but don't stat them, however, stat their underlings! :D maybe not even their closest, maybe 2nd or 3rd rank, and make them fairly formidable ( like low level dragons ) that way the elemental lords themselves will by inference seem much more impresive!
As for the take on Athas's History, I like, mostly, it gives things a broader view. I don't know why Water would reject him though, I mean, in the blue age, the whole planet was practically the elemental plane of water :P (exageration I know, don't kill me ;) ) I do however like the idea that Rajaat went to the elemental powers for guidance/help. After all, he was a Pyreen, disfigured or no, and as such, had a certain connection to the elements..
Someone mentioned they'd like to help with templates and PrC's. I'd like to see that, though I don't know if the book should be heavy with such things.. After all, it's supposed to be about the planes, and too much class stuff can detract from that focus.. in my view... on the other hand.. I'd love to see a PrC or better yet, a template, for each of the Elements, that could be added to a character, making him a sort of elemental champion... (think of it like, the elemental Lords doing to someone their version of what Rajaat did to Sadira, or the SK's) Could be interesting. yes?? (might wanna restrict such types to that plane though... )
Speaking of which.. why are those elemental lords never on Athas?? Surely they can take a day off??
But then, I'm of the Athas Once Had Gods school, and my history has Rajaat killing the Gods (creating the Grey - that's where the Gods once lived). And the Gods were offspring/shards of the original four Gods (Air, Earth, Fire and Water, funnily enoug). Thus Rajaat's actions mean that the remaining Elemental Lords are a fraction of their original power, which is why they have to resort to dealing with Humans the way they do...
Have you looked at the old 2e Planescape "Inner Planes" source book?
I felt this was worth mentioning again Dawn. Have you looked at this supplement? I feel it would aid you greatly in this.
Ok, as for including the elemental lords, do so, but don't stat them, however, stat their underlings! maybe not even their closest, maybe 2nd or 3rd rank, and make them fairly formidable ( like low level dragons ) that way the elemental lords themselves will by inference seem much more impresive!
I don't like statting out the big guys, either, so unless there's a huge uproar, I'll probably leave it up to individual GMs to stat them out if they wish.
I don't know why Water would reject him though, I mean, in the blue age, the whole planet was practically the elemental plane of water (exageration I know, don't kill me ) I do however like the idea that Rajaat went to the elemental powers for guidance/help.
The Balance is going to be extremely important. Given that during the Green Age, most of civilization was right next to some source of water, water clerics would not be uncommon. Water would also have seen what happened the last time someone tried to do something "good" (read: Brown Tide), and would not want a repeat.
I'd like to see that, though I don't know if the book should be heavy with such things..
Only one chapter will be devoted to such things. I'm a huge fan of Planescape, as well, and I think the 3e books put out by Wizards are exceedingly dry. I remember when you could sit down and spend three days actually reading nothing but a Planescape or Dark Sun supplement. with the 3.5 Rulebooks, it's about as much fun as reading a dissertation on Theories of Basket Weaving. I'm going to try for something a bit more entertaining. Let's all cross our fingers and hope I can pull it off.
Speaking of which.. why are those elemental lords never on Athas?? Surely they can take a day off??
Personally, and this is just me, I'd not have the Elemental Lords as tough as Rajaat - if they are, whey didn't they kick his scrawny butt when he was out breaking the Multiverse with his mad plans? His actions had such a huge impact on the Elemental Planes that surely they would have intervened?
These questions are connected, so I'll answer them at once. The Elemental Lords cannot effect the Prime directly and can only work through their underlings (clerics and Elementals - and elementals are much weaker when they leave their plane). Otherwise, like you said, Water could easily open a gate to its plane and all of Athas' worries would be over. They are also considerably weaker thanks to Athas' closed nature and the devestation wrought on the planet.
Thus Rajaat's actions mean that the remaining Elemental Lords are a fraction of their original power, which is why they have to resort to dealing with Humans the way they do...
Exactly.
I felt this was worth mentioning again Dawn. Have you looked at this supplement? I feel it would aid you greatly in this.
Since finishing the monster drawings, that's all I've been doing. Also pouring through "The Astral Plane," "The Ethereal Plane," and "Planescape Monstrous Manual III" since most of the critters in that one are dedicated to the Inner Planes.
My theory is that Athas is a world that is vastly out of balance; it's a top that's wobbling and ready to collapse. In other worlds, they all feed from the same Inner Planes, so nothing that happens on any single planet is going to have an effect on the infinite Inner Planes. The Inner Planes of Athas are isolated, however, and, in effect, finite (although one would never be able to go from "one side to the other," even if they were effectively immortal), so what happens on Athas has a direct influence on the Inner Planes. Likewise the other way around. So, that said, on to my list:
1 Earth
1 Air
3 Silt (since the "2" spot is taken by either Earth or Air, dig? Sort of like Golf scores)
4 Sun
5 Fire
6 Magma
7 Water
8 Rain
9 Radiance
10 Dust
11 Ash
12 Lightning
12 Salt
14 Steam
14 Mineral
16 Vacuum
Sivik saw the guard turn slightly to follow the movements of Kavarus. The dwarf was grabbing his hand and screaming, three of his fingers severed by the jagged obsidian he had been trying to pull lose from the surrounding rock. It was in Sivik’s blood to run and he didn’t think of it: he sprinted the short distance to the guard and shoved, sending him head over heels down the steep slope of loose rocks and debris. The guard’s screams were cut short by the razors of obsidian jutting up out of the ground. Sivik didn’t hear the gasp from the surrounding slaves and he kept running, sprinting across the open ground.
The other slaves immediately made a break for the opening. Kavarus, trailing blood from his nearly-severed hand, eyes staring straight down the hill, took off on his short legs. The other guards became aware of budding slave break – arrows began to rain in on the madly dashing slaves, carefully aimed just to bring the slaves down, not kill them. There were quota’s to meet, after all. A rough hand grabbed the back of Sivik’s soiled tunic, threatening to unbalance him and throw him down the mountain. He shot a look over his shoulder and was not surprised to see it was another slave, a half-elf, desperately trying to keep pace with Sivik’s long legs. This was survival now, Sivik slammed his elbow into the half-elf’s face. Stunned, the half-elf, no more than a girl, Sivik saw, let go. Seconds later, an arrow plunged into her back, ending her race before it really began.
Her groans faded as Sivik kept up his suicidal pace diagonally up the side of the mountain, the scree threatening to toss him down the same serrated rocks as the guard. Other guards had started to notice him now, likely because the other slaves had already been rounded up: none of his elven compatriots had survived the brutal obsidian mines. Arrows began to rattle the rocks around him and he began to dodge in a complex zig-zag pattern, keeping his eyes on the top of the mountain, where ash bellowed out in a black could that could be seen as far away as the ruins of Yaramuke. A spear the size of a small tree hit dangerously close, almost taking his legs out. A high drik was down there, the spear told him that. Within seconds, the beast would tire of this and call down the wrath of the Lion King – Sivik’s time had just about run out. He leaped over it and continued his seemingly suicidal path. But ahead of him, his salvation came into view: a lava flow churning down the side of mountain just a hundred yards away.
He felt more than heard the second spear and threw himself to the ground a hair’s breadth before the spear would have traveled through his back. There was no time to savor this minor victory, however, and he pushed himself up on skinned hands and knees, scuttling towards the river of lava. A roar of frustration went up from the giant-sized creature in the slave camp below – it must not miss that often. Then Sivik’s blood went cold.
“By the power of the King of the World, the Lord of All, the Lion of Urik, send your power to me…” It was the voice of two rocks grinding against each other, disturbing in any setting, but especially so now. Sivik’s time had just ran out.
Somehow pushing himself to his bare feet, he half-ran, half-fell the last twenty feet to the edge of the lava. Without a second thought, he dove in. Whatever horror the high drik had called down didn’t matter now: Sivik was safe. He swam downhill with the flow, letting its warmth encase him as it always had. Breathing deeply of the molten rock, Sivik enjoyed the feel of freedom once again.
Recently I have been thinking how the living vortices are connected to the elemental planes, and how its connection affects them. Before I begin, I shall warn everyone that I have not read the novels, just the Campaign setting (Age of Heroes) and other supplements. Please forgive me. I have been learning a lot about the world of Darksun by reading these posts.
Here it goes.
Before the living vortices were created, the Elemental planes (Fire, Water, Earth, Air,) were already struggling for balance. Whatever element become dominant, it would soon get power hungry and try to take out the nearest elemental plane ( Earth attacks Water or Fire). During this time the Paraelemental planes were inferior and often formed alliances with one or both of the Elements they were made of ( example: Rain would ally with water or Air or both.) Since the Paraelements could exist with ease in both planes, they were often used as pawns for war and espionage. The other Elemental planes would often work together to bring the over powered Element back into balance Whenever this happened, there would be much warfare in effort to balance the power. The opposing elements had a harder time working together, it was not unusual for them to turn on each other in the heat of battle.
When the living vortices were created, they were attached to the Elemental planes, draining the elemental energy. Strangely, the Paraelemental planes were unaffected. This caused a huge unbalancing. Now instead of being inferior to the Elements, the Paraelements were at equal strength. The Paraelements have been used and repressed for so long, now they have the chance to rule.
The Elements have created a pact with each other, that they would work together to bring balance once and for all. This means to put the Paraelements in their proper place.
Dawnstealer, this is where I answer the list question. Of the Elemental Planes I think Earth is the Dominant Element. The Dominant element that rules the Paraelements is the Sun. I think these two elements are equal right now. Earth hates Sun, mostly because this "impure abomination" is equal with it in power. It probably doesn't help that Sun has ties to Earth's ancient enemy, Air.
I also like the Idea that A Paraelement is just as powerful as the dominant Element. This shows that the elements are seriously out of balance.
If it needs to make more sense why Air is not Equal to Earth: Athasian air is not that pure any ways, due to the sand and silt in it.
1 Earth
1 Sun
3 Air
4 Silt
5 Fire
6 Magma
7 Water
8 Rain
9 Radiance
10 Dust
11 Ash
12 Lightening
12 Salt
14 Steam
14 Mineral
16 Vacuum
The Elements blame the unbalancing, on Arcane magic. This form of magic was used to create the Living Vortices and they cannot be destroyed (so it seems). They Exist on each Elemental Plane continually draining the energy from the plane. If the vortices could be destroyed, the power of the Elements would gradually become stronger than the Paraelements. Anything that gets close to a living vortex would get sucked in. The same would happen to any spell that is directed at it. The energy (Elemental energy, life energy, spell ,or power) would end up fueling the Divine spells of some Templar on Athas.
Check out your "cloud" as well as "down the side of the mountain "
Terminus: Elf Magma Cleric, although likely a low-level one. My goal was to keep it under a page so that it would stay consistent with similar "stories" in Planescape and Dark Sun supplements.
There may be more to the story in later chapters, but for right now, it's a stand-alone.
Would travel between Elemental planes be restriced to using magic or psionic powers?
(Sorry for asking) Will you include information on the living vortices?
Yes, there will be information on Vortexes, but I'm going to leave a lot open to interpretation (but not conflicting info like in Dragon Kings and similar documents).
I like the cover pic. Any chance we could see a larger version?
Second, I prefer the "Just like the Prime Material plane, but ruled utterly by their element" idea for the look of the elemental planes. That is, each of the planes is like a colored lens placed over Athas. Combined, they form the Athas we know today, seperate, they form the planes -- in the Earth plane, all you see are the boulders, mountains, and rotting veins of ore.
In the plane of Air, all you find are vast, airy chasms and storm-ridden, windswept deserts. Basically, the locale you are in, but with however that element affects that locale being the primary focus of the landscape in that element's plane.
Frex: if there were a vast river in front of you on Athas, and you went to the Elemental plane of Earth, you would find no river. The two sides of the river would be one landmass (theoretically, you could step into the plane of Earth on one side of the river, take a step or two on the plane, and then return to Athas on the other side of the river -- having crossed the intervening space because it doesn't exist on the plane of Earth).
Of course, this makes the planes a very psychedelic element (ha!) of the setting, unexplainable and perhaps even illogical (to Prime natives) -- which is what I prefer in keeping with the mystique and alien (and spiritual) nature of the planes -- rather than the "just like here, but colored different" idea about the planes that most fantasy seems to take when dealing with "other dimensions" (ie: all of them are like an Earth, like a planet/world/whathaveyou, none of them are truly bizzare, interesting, or unique) -- but that may not be everyone's cup of tea.
As for influence: I would put Water and Rain at the very, very low end of the chart. Neither has much presence on Athas, and thus much power/influence. These planes are literally dying...their portion of the structure of Athas' universe is crumbling.
I would further say, and agree with your premise, that it is because of this that the universe is crumbling, dying, falling apart. It will soon collapse into ruin because some of its supports are severely eroded will fall.
Give that tyr storm thingy a few hundred years, and it may swallow the sea of silt... as it is... I think right now the rain plain just got a boost, as did water, slightly.. who knows, in your campaign, rajaat might have made storm a permanent effect, which will last until his life force is gone, which could be hundreds or thousands of years. Perhaps in a future on athas, there could be a lot of water, maybe time traveling agents of PC's could go to the future, to discover much of the land under water, with a raging storm over the sea of silt still, and the only way to stop the eventual return of the blue age, or to make the blue age return in a manner suitable for life (i.e. without the big bad storm gaining in force and killing everyone..) is to release rajaat, and deal with him once again! (ha!)
Also, I don't think the quasi-elemental planes were ever written up in 3E, and we're not using them. The Plane of Mineral breaks standard D&D wealth, and it would utterly destroy Athasian flavor.
For the Outer Planes, we're heaping all demons, devils, weird stuff together in one plane called The Deep. Individual DMs can decide whether to connect The Deep to the Great Wheel or to satisfy the requirements of adventures like Black Spine by having outsiders come from one weird, distant plane.
I just wanted to let you know our plans, so you are aware of them when writing on the planes.
the dryness of water (not really sure how that would show up, encroaching paraelemental planes i guess).
I was thinking that the plane of water could be very small, representing its lack of influence and presence on Athas, especially if the idea that you can move from one plane to another is kept. The plane of water would be this small...oasis (the bad puns just keep coming) in the relative dryness and savagery of the other elemental planes, which would be like a vast desert around it.
For the Outer Planes, we're heaping all demons, devils, weird stuff together in one plane called The Deep. Individual DMs can decide whether to connect The Deep to the Great Wheel or to satisfy the requirements of adventures like Black Spine by having outsiders come from one weird, distant plane.
That is a good way to do it (leaving it for GMs to decide -- since I hate the idea of an Athas which is a part of the stupidverse...I mean the multiverse ;P ).
I'd probably drop the Deep into the Black, as one of the shadow realms populating that space, a thought I spoke about a couple months back, or make it consist of a number of shadow realms collectively titled "The Deep" -- perhaps because of how far into the Black they lie (metaphyiscally speaking).
Okay, one at a time:
Second, I prefer the "Just like the Prime Material plane, but ruled utterly by their element" idea for the look of the elemental planes.
I agree - my plan is to stay loyal to the one-paragraph descriptions in "Earth, Air, Fire, Water." In that one, however, Air was just air - there was no ground to be seen. I might "Athas it up" a little, but my plan is to change as little as possible.
I am just glancing through here, but it looks like no one else has posted our upcoming planar notes from TotDL. Basically, we've cut the Positive and Negative Energy Planes, distributing positive energy across the Elemental Planes and negative energy to the Paraelemental Planes and the Gray. The Gray is a flavorful replacement for the Negative Energy Plane, and it hardly makes sense to keep the Positive Energy Plane.
Yup, that's the way I took it, too: no Pos, no Neg (the Gray is kind of a Neg, but I'm labling it as its own thing as opposed to taking the place of the Negative Plane). Essentially, Athas will not have a Positive or Negative Plane.
Also, I don't think the quasi-elemental planes were ever written up in 3E, and we're not using them. The Plane of Mineral breaks standard D&D wealth, and it would utterly destroy Athasian flavor.
Quasi's were mentioned in both Earth, Air, etc and Dragon Kings, so I think it'd be a dereliction of duty to simply drop them. Like Earth, Air, etc says: they're rolled into their "Mother Planes," instead of being seperate planes all their own. Instead of having them latched onto the four Elemental Planes, however, I have them on the plane with the most influence (Radiance attached to Sun instead of Air, for example). This weird set up just goes with the theme that Athas is badly out of whack. I have plans for Mineral - basically, it was drained or corrupted during the Cleansing Wars, making it dern-near impossible to find uncorrupted veins.
For the Outer Planes, we're heaping all demons, devils, weird stuff together in one plane called The Deep. Individual DMs can decide whether to connect The Deep to the Great Wheel or to satisfy the requirements of adventures like Black Spine by having outsiders come from one weird, distant plane.
As a long-time Planescape GM, I'm not too wild about this one. I have Athas isolated from the multiverse and leave it up to the GM on whether the barrier to the multiverse at large is "breachable." I don't think an extra dimension in the Black is called for. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the "anything goes" style of D&D where each world is its own unique entity. I kind of like each one fitting into a pattern even if, like Athas, that pattern has been irrevokably screwed up.
On that note, I am going to have a "Deep" portion of the Black dedicated to a very twisted realm. Think "Cthulu" and you'll be close. This section will mostly be suggestion instead of canon, though, so GMs can do what they want (which is pretty much how I'm laying out the entire book). Of course, in the very Deep Black, you run the risk of coming close to where Rajaat extends his influence, and that's just flat-out dangerous.
One last thing: I was planning on having a githyanki castle in the Gray. I figure individual GMs could decide whether it's part of the "Greater Wheel" or they were simply trapped here when Athas was cut off. Either way, Githyanki will be exceedingly rare and, especially after Black Spine, anxious to avoid contact.
As a long-time Planescape GM, I'm not too wild about this one. I have Athas isolated from the multiverse and leave it up to the GM on whether the barrier to the multiverse at large is "breachable." I don't think an extra dimension in the Black is called for. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the "anything goes" style of D&D where each world is its own unique entity. I kind of like each one fitting into a pattern even if, like Athas, that pattern has been irrevokably screwed up.
Planescape is the problem, actually. I love Planescape, but it doesn't suit Dark Sun. "Anything goes" actually describes Planescape and 2E. The mindset that different worlds have different cosmologies is very 3E. Forgotten Realms has its own set of planes now, for instance, and this is good.
I am not saying The Deep has anything to do with The Black. It just sounds similar, like The Gray.
On that note, I am going to have a "Deep" portion of the Black dedicated to a very twisted realm. Think "Cthulu" and you'll be close. This section will mostly be suggestion instead of canon, though, so GMs can do what they want (which is pretty much how I'm laying out the entire book). Of course, in the very Deep Black, you run the risk of coming close to where Rajaat extends his influence, and that's just flat-out dangerous.
What we talked about originally for The Deep was MotP's Far Realm, which is basically what you describe. However, it's not a Core plane. The Deep is basically that plane but with all the regular outsiders thrown in too. And not a in way that forces everything into your campaign; it's just to allow Dregoth's plane-hopping and adventures like Black Spine to make sense in your campaign even if you don't want to connect Athas to Planescape.
Planescape is the problem, actually. I love Planescape, but it doesn't suit Dark Sun.
It does as long as players, NPCS, and whatnot cannot easily cross over to the multiverse or vice-versa. Even making it extraordinarily difficult, the chances for abuse are very, very high. There's also a good chance that if a player could figure out how to "cross over," an SK would have figured it out many thousands of times over (given the average age is close to 3,000 years for those guys).
There are actually three different tracks you can take from here:
1) Dark Sun, as by 3e rules, can easily be its own separate thing and have nothing in common with the 2e version where there was Inner Planes -> Athas -> Astral -> Outer Planes. Instead, Athas can have its own makeup being pretty much whatever you want it to be.
2) Athas could exist in the same manner as a demiplane, but still follow the 2e multiversal makeup. In other words, Athas exists in the Prime Material and may have gateways, active or no, on its surface that lead to the Outer, Inner, Astral, and/or Ethereal planes. The means of getting there can be limited in this way, much as was done with Ravenloft.
3) Some combination of 1 and 2: they aren't completely mutually exclusive.
My preference is towards 2, just because it works with my established campaigns, where players can potentially escape Athas (or get stuck there, as the case may be). The trick to running these kinds of campaigns is limiting what the players can bring to Athas. Players can't use trips to the planes as chances to bring back sacks of gold and metal +3 vorpal weapons. I have plans to include limiting factors to crossing the Veil. One of the big ones will be attachments on separate planes: the SKs cannot cross as long as they have an active Elemental Vortex.
The problem with going with 1) and completely ditching the concept of the multiverse at large is that it basically invalidates a large part of Dregoth's recent history (traveling to the planes, wanting to become a god, having an artifact that transports him there, etc). I'm not completely adverse to bending on this point, but I'm not going to break: unless I hear a really good argument, a (tenuous) connection to the multiverse will remain in my version. I'll tone it down, of course, and leave a lot open to interpretation (the book is being written by a man who is considered by many to be insane), so GMs will be able to use or discard whatever they want.
The true "meat" of this book will be the descriptions of the planes and the creatures that are there. I doubt the main draw will be my interpretation of Athas' history or why it's so isolated, but who knows? I am pretty cool. :D
The mindset that different worlds have different cosmologies is very 3E.
Agreed, but I'm not too taken with this design. Personally, I always felt that Dark Sun was more d20 than D&D. The difference is slight, but is there. There are many aspects of Dark Sun that are purely Dark Sun. Sandstorm might change that.
Forgotten Realms has its own set of planes now, for instance, and this is good.
Debateable, but I'll go with it, for now. I do not use it in my campaigns, but I've only run one brief campaign in FR since 3e rolled out.
What we talked about originally for The Deep was MotP's Far Realm, which is basically what you describe.
I'm working my way back up to that book and will reread it again in the near future (I'm working through Ethereal, Astral, and Inner Planes from Planescape right now - but am almost done with them: thank god for multitasking). I'll definitely check it out. I'm not adverse to having a separate realm within "Dark Sun space" that allows for monstrous critters. My history of Athas, after all, has a massive portion of the planes being split off and isolated, so it would make sense that not everything that was captured would be a willing participant or necessarily from the Inner Planes (read: Baatezu, Tanar'ri, etc).
The Deep is basically that plane but with all the regular outsiders thrown in too. And not a in way that forces everything into your campaign; it's just to allow Dregoth's plane-hopping and adventures like Black Spine to make sense in your campaign even if you don't want to connect Athas to Planescape.
Dig it. I will try hard to make the options as open to interpretation as possible.
But on the other hand, the Grey is supposed to be the boundary, a local density fluctuation where the Astral and Ethereal converge. There is even percentage chances detailed in Defilers and Preservers for a successful journey through the Grey to the multiverse at large. One could even go so far as to say that the Grey cuts off the Elemental Plane sections bound to Athas from the greater Elemental Planes of the rest of the multiverse.
Athas is part of the rest of the D&D cosmology, It's just segregated. It's canon. Deal with it, all.
Also, the Realms don't have a seperate cosmology. The names for individual layers of certain planes are referred to differently, and there is a couple of extra local planes (like the Fugue), but they are the same OUter Planes that the rest of the Prime is connected to.
I think I included it in the earlier outline, but I might have left it out. At the outer border of the Gray, which requires many low-percentage checks simply to find, there is the Veil, which either encloses Athas or seperates it from the rest of the multiverse. Those buying into the 3e version of things can simply state that this Veil is simply the edge of reality and beyond it lies oblivion. Other GMs like you and I, on the other hand, can use this convention as a means to transport our players out or in as needed.
I have to make all the planes and worlds fit together, because in my campaign we're currently trying to keep them all from being destroyed. By Stormweaver. BTW, props, Dawnstealer!
Athas is part of the rest of the D&D cosmology, It's just segregated. It's canon. Deal with it, all.
Ah yes, the old canon argument.
Well, guess what, we can rewrite canon, so get over it.
Especially since the "canon" of 2e DS was so screwed up it's not even funny.
Frankly I would rather see Athas seperated from the Great Wheel and totally closed off, and that is what we have done. FR and the rest can stay linked and that's fine with me, I still DM in some of those campaign worlds, but I want Athas disconnected, as it should be, per the old rules before Defiler's and Preservers came along and ruined it by giving a small percentage (and it was a very small percentage if I'm not mistaken), by allowing people to escape to the planes.
Honestly, if Dregoth can do what he is attempting to do in DA, then why couldn't the rest of the SM's find a way to bypass the gray as well? Easy answer they can't, and you will see what happens later in DA when you try to attempt to bypass the gray, and that's exactly how the designers wanted it IMO, otherwise they wouldn't have gone to the trouble of keeping it so closed off as they did.
It took some inconsistencies, and a product that was good until it came to the badly written parts that talked about percentile chances of escaping (P&D) that made people start embracing the whole idea that Athas wasn't really closed off as much as it was detailed earlier before some of the newer stuff came out.
Besides, the Far Realm, known as The Deep in our writeup, covers the inconsistencies as well as Dregoth's planar mirror artifact quite nicely, so there's really no need to drop all of that and go back to the old 2e Great Wheel design, and I have hard time reasoning out why anyone that has ever played DS would ever want to go back to that design. Hey, I liked Planescape too, but I only once mixed that with DS, and that was a mistake in my eyes. In fact the only thing I mix with DS these days is Ravenloft and that's only due to the fact that they share a common theme of both being closed off from the rest of the multiverse and damn near impossible to escape (whereas DS is hard to get to as well, while RL is not given certain circumstances).
Love Planescape all you want, and all the other worlds out there, hell I do, but keep their taint away from Athas.
I'll also agree that the 3e design to keep everything to its own multiverse is bad design IMO too, but only to all other campaign worlds that aren't cut off like Ravenloft and Athas.
Peace out.
/Me smites Nyt Crawlr with +50 mace of NytSmyting :D
Honestly, if Dregoth can do what he is attempting to do in DA, then why couldn't the rest of the SM's find a way to bypass the gray as well? Easy answer they can't, and you will see what happens later in DA when you try to attempt to bypass the gray, and that's exactly how the designers wanted it IMO, otherwise they wouldn't have gone to the trouble of keeping it so closed off as they did.
My intention is to make it exceedingly difficult to get off of Athas, especially for SKs as cross the Veil would separate them from Athas and, hence, their ability to grant spells...forever. They would lose their tenuous connection to the Inner Planes. From what I've seen, the SKs are more than content to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.
Frankly I would rather see Athas seperated from the Great Wheel and totally closed off, and that is what we have done.
I do want Athas isolated, as that's the whole point, but I don't want it separate. Again, it will be open to interpretation what, exactly, is sanity or not with the narrator, and the small link to the Great Wheel will be a very small part of the book. I think it would be foolish to ditch any chance entirely, though. I agree that the TSR release of Planescape changed a lot of things in the D&D world, but I personally don't believe that Athas was ever supposed to be something entirely out there and not connected to the rest of the TSR universe.
I think as the world grew out of their imaginations, they realized that one plane-hopping dingbat could change everything simply by setting up a metal-transfer station on the planes. THAT kind of thing is definitely not in the flavor of Dark Sun and would certainly destroy the setting. Setting up a slim sliver of possibility and putting down ironclad rules for dealing with malcontents is better than simply taking the easy (3e) way out and saying: "It's different. Deal."
On a side note, I never owned P&D - I felt it rehashed info that was available in other books or directly contradicted what I, and what I felt the original designers, came up with. It was not until '01 that I bought it off of SVGames. Still haven't read everything in there, but from the sounds of it, I'm not missing a whole lot.
Nyt, I definitely see where you guys are coming from and I know the argument well, it's just that tossing all that canon material out the window from even the earliest Dark Sun books is something I can't do just yet. I wouldn't mind seeing the Far Realm version you guys cooked up for Dregoth Ascending, though, and see if it knocks anything lose.
Here's some cotton candy to help with the bribe...WHY CAN DAWNSTEALER DRAW BETTER THAN ME???!?!?!?!?!?!
Practice, practice, practice. Also, Picasso once said, "Good artists borrow. Great artists steal." That's very true: don't be afraid to take someone else's art and make it your own (by redrawing it, learning how they did it, thinking about what you would do differently, etc).
then, if joe shmoe from 'campaign x' gets caught in athas for some reason, he still has a way out. (if he can become an epic level caster) or at the very least, go ask dregoth if you could use his handy gate.
or you could always go to kalidnay and try to get ravenloft to pick you up if you really wanted to get off of athas. but then you're in a whole different mess.
btw what was the reason that kalidnays tomb slipped into the mist?
Eh, like I said, I'll leave it open to interpretation. I like the idea of a "Deep Black," so to speak, and will certainly include. Having not seen Dregoth Ascending, however, I'm limited in what I can include from it.
The Deep isn't part of the Black. It's just whatever weird stuff is out there.
Rexaroo: Kalidnay slipped into Ravenloft when Kalid Ma's lead templar tried to push through the "Dragon Spell." That would be the spell that would jump Kalid Ma from 20x Dragon to 30 in one fell swoop. Didn't succeed, the dragon was put in a coma and the entire realm was sucked into the demiplane of dread.
My intention is to make it exceedingly difficult to get off of Athas, especially for SKs as cross the Veil would separate them from Athas and, hence, their ability to grant spells...forever. They would lose their tenuous connection to the Inner Planes. From what I've seen, the SKs are more than content to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.
Ok, I still don't like that, I'm just very hard headed when it comes to this. If I wanted to play in the Great Wheel I would pick any other world besides Athas and Ravenloft, and I have played and ran other campaign worlds before, and plane hopped alot.
Anyways, I like what you are trying to do, at least you are making it very, very difficult, if not damn near impossible, and I like that opposed to P&Ds remote chance no matter how small it was, it still wasn't small enough.
This is just one of those sore subjects with me, esp when someone has the audacity to attempt the "canon" argument, which is ludricous to me, since the 'canon' of Dark Sun is so convoluted and contradictory most of the time it's hard to seperate what is true 'canon' from that which is not.
Rexaroo: Kalidnay slipped into Ravenloft when Kalid Ma's lead templar tried to push through the "Dragon Spell." That would be the spell that would jump Kalid Ma from 20x Dragon to 30 in one fell swoop. Didn't succeed, the dragon was put in a coma and the entire realm was sucked into the demiplane of dread.
Depends on what you go by. I like combining both the Athas info on this and the Ravenloft info on this.
Basically it did work, Kalid-ma was transformed into a 30th level dragon, full blown, etc., but was freaking mindless, it's mind being split and thrown into the orbs he had. The body then goes off and does total destruction which Hammanu, Kalak, and Borys take out.
Meanwhile, back in dreadville, the high templat Thakok-An (sp?) wakes up and finds her love (Kalid-ma) in a coma, along with half or more of the city wiped out, and on some weird plateau.
What's the other body you ask? Clone? Something else? You decide.
Shei-nad did an excellent writeup on this contradiction as well, also on my site.
http://www.crimsonsun.org/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=183
Edit: Well I guess WotC redirect strikes again. Just go to Crimsonsun.org then click on Articles, then click on Kalid-ma/Ravenloft contradiction, and that should get you there.
This is just one of those sore subjects with me, esp when someone has the audacity to attempt the "canon" argument, which is ludricous to me, since the 'canon' of Dark Sun is so convoluted and contradictory most of the time it's hard to seperate what is true 'canon' from that which is not.
What can I say? I'm an audacious person. :P
Basically it did work, Kalid-ma was transformed into a 30th level dragon, full blown, etc., but was freaking mindless, it's mind being split and thrown into the orbs he had. The body then goes off and does total destruction which Hammanu, Kalak, and Borys take out.
Good point - this is from the official timeline, I believe, which does make a bit more sense.
Ok, I still don't like that, I'm just very hard headed when it comes to this. If I wanted to play in the Great Wheel I would pick any other world besides Athas and Ravenloft, and I have played and ran other campaign worlds before, and plane hopped alot.
Yup, me too (as you know, since we've been discussing it for, what? Three, four years now?). When I latch onto something, I latch hard, but I'll listen to reason. My goal is to have something that anyone could pick up and use, even a Planescape GM. Also, it will give GMs from other "realities," Like Dragonlance, or Forgotten Realms, or Greyhawk, the chance to bring their players into Dark Sun in a way that doesn't absolutely disrupt the feel of Athas (by riding in on a red dragon wielding a massive +50 metal greatsword, for example). Think of it in reverse (controlling what comes to Athas, instead of what gets out - which is far and away the harder of the two) and it's logical to construct something that people can use.
Saying: "No one can go anywhere from here" takes away tools in a GM's arsenal. I understand your argument: I just don't completely agree with it. I do agree that any ability to leave Athas or come back should be massively limited or, given any sort of odds, thousands would have done it already. Essentially, I'm going to make it possible, but not worth the risk or the payoff. On top of that, I'm going to make those rules optional and very small part of the book (maybe a page or two out of a 150+ page book).
Don't worry, man! I'll pull it off! :D
Think of it in reverse (controlling what comes to Athas, instead of what gets out - which is far and away the harder of the two) and it's logical to construct something that people can use.
Ok, this I like, and it makes much more sense to go this route than the other way.
Don't worry, man! I'll pull it off! :D
I have faith! I can hear Jimmy!
If anyone can pull this off, you can man. Especially since I have yet to come across any of your ideas I don't like in some form or fashion (this one being a fluke).
:D
1) Once the spell is cast, the caster loses 5 levels and 50 years of life. All possessions being carried are lost. That's all possessions. The caster has no control over where they arrive: it could be anywhere in the multiverse. Those going to Athas could conceivably arrive inside a mountain or anything else the GM desires (this would halt unwanted trips to Athas very quickly). Any ties to the Planes of Athas are instantly severed. This means that any Sorcerer Monarchs traveling to other planes (outside of Dregoth's gate, which is an artifact and breaks the rules) sever their connection to their elemental vortex forever (which is why none have taken the trip).
The spell is 10th level, so only epic level spellcasters can cast it. The material components are the caster's most valued possession and at least 50 HD of intelligent creatures (that must be present at the time of casting). The catch? They must be willing to sacrifice themselves.
That's all I have so far, but it seems to work. Let me know what you think.
I love it!
oops! I just remembered. The loss of 5 levels. Are they the five most recently gained levels?If not, some interesting possibilities arise.
Is there anything stopping someone like, say, Farcluun the Dragon from using this spell? He has no vortex and since he's an AB, he's immortal.
Yup, the 50 HD of willing participants. You would have to have either fanatical followers (for evil) or extremely dedicated followers (for good).
My question is WHY? What does multiversal travel add to the experience of gaming in Athas, to the designed theme(s) of the setting?
I'm interested in your answer to this, but my own answer is: "Nothing, at all." Athas' story cannot be told -- its theme cannot be enhanced -- by planar hopping characters and otherworlds (with the exception of the Elemental planes and the rest of the standard Athasian cosmology). This is one of the main reasons I am against Athas being linked, even "weakly" to the concept of a multiverse.
In fact, I'd just point you to the lengthy post from a couple months back where I put forth this argument in detail, but I don't recall which thread it was, and the Search feature on Wizard's boards doesn't appear to be working.
This question is especially relevant in how difficult -- nigh impossible -- you are making it to do. What is the use of its inclusion if it is supposed to be next-to-impossible anyways? There doesn't seem to be a pertinent reason to include it.
So, the really short version, for the same reason you don't include a nuclear warhead in your garage toolbox because "it might be a useful tool" (yeah, sometime), you don't include multiversal travel in an Athasian cosmology. For the same reason you don't add a multiverse to Tolkien's works, so that Wolverine and the X-men can run around fighting orcs in Middle-Earth, you don't include multiversal travel in an Athasian cosmology.
Now, be careful, because I'm not saying you couldn't do such a thing if you wished to, only that a story with such elements would be a bastard child, one that indeed could be fun, but one that would not be Middle-earth -- nor should it be. The thematic cohesion of Middle-earth would lose something if such elements were included and allowed, even if rare or unique.
Not to mention the fact that the godhood spell is designed to bend the conduits of spiritual energy from the Inner Planes to the OUTER PLANES. so there has to be outer planes, and Athas, while extremely isolated, has to be part of the multiverse.
Now, be careful, because I'm not saying you couldn't do such a thing if you wished to, only that a story with such elements would be a bastard child, one that indeed could be fun, but one that would not be Middle-earth -- nor should it be. The thematic cohesion of Middle-earth would lose something if such elements were included and allowed, even if rare or unique.
Not that this was directed to me, but Dawn is including the "possibilty" of Athas being part of a "big picture" type theme. When all is said and done, its up to the DM what he wants for "his" Athas.
There's plenty of canon material that I choose to not use or ignor because it doesn't fit "my" vision of Athas. Does that make my campaign less authentic than anyone else's? Certianly not. Should I think less of someone's campaign because they choose not to have their Athas as part of a greater multiverse even though I do? Most definitly nay.
I don't know if I had a point to this post, but I felt like going on a rant anyhow.
I guess what I'm trying to drive across is people are free to do what they want with their campaigns and shouldn't be condemed by other's if they don't feel or see it in the same way.
Greyorm: if you want a solid reason why I wish to include the Great Wheel in our little cosmology, the reason is simple: to be as inclusive as possible. It's not necessarily for us, GMs that have probably been running Dark Sun since '92. We know Athas so well, we could run players from 1st to 20th level without ever cracking open a book and it would be dead on.
The problem arises from the fact that TSR created so many conflicting "canon" materials (as Nyt brought up earlier), that anyone could say just about anything and point to a book or paragraph that backs them up.
My goal is to not shut the door completely. My goal is to have it so that if someone from the Planescape boards or the Dragonlance boards or the (you get the idea) decide to give Dark Sun a one-shot adventure and have their players try it out, this is the way they can do it and still have fun. A group of players bringing over metal armor, decanters of endless water, magical metal weapons, and so on, could slice through just about anything. Could you imagine what the decanter alone could do to Athas?
It's more for people that want to go to Athas. If we close it completely off, then people might not join the community because they like their own characters. It's also for newer GMs to D&D who might want to try out a series of worlds. This way, they and their players can leave Athas and come back.
The final reason is that Athas is talked about so much in the Planescape books. Likewise, there are references to the planes in Athasian books. Cutting Athas completely off may work very well in your campaign, and many others' campaigns, but that does not mean that it works for everyone's campaign.
This way, the GM has an option to allow planar travel in a manner that does not destroy the integrity of an established world.
Hope I'm making sense and not just babbling again...:D
?
Not to mention the fact that the godhood spell is designed to bend the conduits of spiritual energy from the Inner Planes to the OUTER PLANES. so there has to be outer planes, and Athas, while extremely isolated, has to be part of the multiverse.
I wouldn't use this as part of your argument until you've seen all of DA.
If I say anything else it will be a spoiler in some form or fashion.
My thought on the vortexes is that they're kind of noncorporal, so could not be "attacked." Otherwise, no SK would have a vortex because at one time or another, every SK has fought against another. My rule of thumb is generally: if a PC can do it, an SK has done it a million times. :D
Being incorporal may not be enough. There are many spells and powers that can harm the incorporal. I agree, a SK would have done it a million times.
Anything that gets close to a living vortex would get sucked in. The same would happen to any spell or power that is directed at it. The energy (Elemental energy, life energy, spell ,or power) would end up fueling the Divine spells of some Templar on Athas.
Maybe getting sucked into a vortex wouldn’t be very nice. Level loss, spells and power points lost for the day, items destroyed or lost, loss of Hp, and then it would transport you inside one random element on Athas (In a fire, in the Sea of silt, in the sky, or inside a mountain). Its just not worth messing with.
What if the vortexes are essentially on another dimension? I'm thinking something like Edwin Abbott's book Flatland. In that book, the people were all two-dimensional. A three-dimensional "person" entering this realm would be so alien as to be practically inconceivable to the 2D being. The 2D being wouldn't be able to necessarily "see" the 3D person, but would be able to feel their effects and feel their presence. Perhaps that's what the vortexes are: something on a different level whose effects are felt, but actually can't be touched, harmed, or perceived by anyone of this dimension.
Then again, maybe introducing multiple dimensions to Athas is a bad idea.
Just had another thought:
What if the vortexes are essentially on another dimension? I'm thinking something like Edwin Abbott's book Flatland. In that book, the people were all two-dimensional. A three-dimensional "person" entering this realm would be so alien as to be practically inconceivable to the 2D being. The 2D being wouldn't be able to necessarily "see" the 3D person, but would be able to feel their effects and feel their presence. Perhaps that's what the vortexes are: something on a different level whose effects are felt, but actually can't be touched, harmed, or perceived by anyone of this dimension.
Then again, maybe introducing multiple dimensions to Athas is a bad idea.
I like this idea. Just make it to where this dimension can't be accessed in any way and you should be fine.