With the dawn of 3rd Ed, we had our hopes rekindled, and dashed again with the overwhelming support of forgotten realms, instead of a equal share for greyhawk, so after much hemming and hawing, I finally got the to agree to a bussiness proposal to wotc,which I hope will be fruitful, the d20 system is a open gaming property and we would like to establish if a sourcebook for the default setting could also be done out of company.
But as to what I would like to see here is , suggestions/requests, and opinions on what greyhawkers would like to see in such a guide.
Over the many years myself and fellow players and gms have aquired, and acumulated alot of in house rules and lore for the greyhawk setting, and hope to use the choice bits from that aswell, so lets hear what you people have to offer.
thanks.
)Because, to speak openly, those are the people that shaped MY Greyhawk; now, declaring the Oerth Journal entries non-canon, or leaving out Mr Mona, who's currently trying to revive WoG via Dragon and Dungeon, would very probably prevent me and my players (indeed, I think, most Hawkers I know) from buying new products.
Apart from that I personally have some basic ideas that I would consider necessary to relaunch Greyhawk as a viable game setting, and not only to make some money out of the name:
1. Let some more time pass. The Flanaess have seen so much trouble recently that the story reminds me of Dragonlance. The more stable a setting is, the more it allows me to adventure. Very strong canon shies the gamers away, as recent threads on the DL board might show.
2. No more wars or cataclysmic events in the near future, please! The Rebellion in Nyrond was the end of years of constant instability. See point 1 for explanation.
3. Expand slowly. There is still so much old stuff out, that, with a decent conversion manual, you can play for years without new material. Don't come up with 10 books each year, please!
Apart from that, of course, good luck!!!
We would likely avoid to much tampering with a timeline perse, more of a supplement that could be dropped into any era of Oerths history,but maybe present various npcs from pivitol points of that same history.
One of our members is also a keen wargaming devotee, and is working on a mass combat system for the d20 system, which we may consider including, after alot of playtesting, since so much of Greyhawk's past has involved warfare.
I guess the main thrust of our concept is a player sourcebook that will enrich the players immersion in the setting, and maybe give game masters a boost to their creativity, again this is still in its infant stage and will be happy to co-ordinate with others , especially anyone who is already trying to revitalize this great game setting.
and thanks for the input Ivid
Not wanting to be pessimist, you will find out that WotC will be very resistant to give you control of the "core" setting. Anyway, I wish you the best of the luck!
I would just like to hear from my fellow greyhawk Fans here, and their opinion on what items and topics they would like to see covered in a greyhawk based players guide, myself and several bussiness partners, that have had extensive experiance in publishing and marketing fields, have been playing D&D since the begining, and have always bemoaned the lack of support for our fav place Oerth.
With the dawn of 3rd Ed, we had our hopes rekindled, and dashed again with the overwhelming support of forgotten realms, instead of a equal share for greyhawk, so after much hemming and hawing, I finally got the to agree to a bussiness proposal to wotc,which I hope will be fruitful, the d20 system is a open gaming property and we would like to establish if a sourcebook for the default setting could also be done out of company.
But as to what I would like to see here is , suggestions/requests, and opinions on what greyhawkers would like to see in such a guide.
Over the many years myself and fellow players and gms have aquired, and acumulated alot of in house rules and lore for the greyhawk setting, and hope to use the choice bits from that aswell, so lets hear what you people have to offer.
thanks.
Sounds like you are trying to nail down exactly what Greyhawk is or should be. But the campaign wasn't designed that way. The best you will be able to do is present a Player's Guide for Your Greyhawk campaign. Maybe you could work with the Living Greyhawk campaign, but I understand that they have player guides for each area.
A DM's guide or book of suggestions for the Greyhawk campaign would be more useful. Present versions of the Flan or Oeridians, or how people might dress or act in the Yeomanry, Furyondy, Nyrond, etc... Make suggestions about the various demi-human races, such as elves, dwarves, halflings, centaurs, where they live, their culture, populations, history. but any attempt to offer up 'facts' about any of these simply presents one viewpoint in a campaign designed to be unique for each and every DM.
That's the problem with a 'Player's Guide'. You can't make it generic enough to work with the myriad Greyhawk campaigns and if you make it specific it won't work with any of them.
The Greyhawk campaign isn't at its best when it is forced to conform to a single vision not of the DM's making. The campaign isn't meant to be 'off the rack', it is Tailor Made and each DM is the tailor who makes it their own.
For instance, just recently someone posted a topic here about which changes each of us have made to Greyhawk. A similar topic on the Forgotten Realms board would eventually bring out someone saying "you're not playing in FR anymore", but here that's not a problem.
Besides, if RPGs are supposed to be games of imagination... adding details just kills that side of the game.
Anyway, I wish you more luck than I've had. Just recently I posted a topic here, asking for ideas from the Greyhawk fans about the past of Oerth and, after almost 80 views, I got no answer whatsoever. I think people just like Greyhawk as it is.
Most of my players are brand new to D&D and Greyhawk, and they love it! They all started with the Official History of the Greyhawk Wars, which compelled two of them enough to get the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. They now have very rich and colorful characters with deeply rooted backgrounds tied directly to the Greyhawk Wars.
Also if you do decide to use Living Greyhawk material (I think that seperate permision would be required for that), please be picky about what you use, some of it is quite good, and could realy help the setting, some of it is just horrible and should be discarded.
I would just like to hear from my fellow greyhawk Fans here, and their opinion on what items and topics they would like to see covered in a greyhawk based players guide, myself and several bussiness partners, that have had extensive experiance in publishing and marketing fields, have been playing D&D since the begining, and have always bemoaned the lack of support for our fav place Oerth.
With the dawn of 3rd Ed, we had our hopes rekindled, and dashed again with the overwhelming support of forgotten realms, instead of a equal share for greyhawk, so after much hemming and hawing, I finally got the to agree to a bussiness proposal to wotc,which I hope will be fruitful, the d20 system is a open gaming property and we would like to establish if a sourcebook for the default setting could also be done out of company.
LOL!
I don't think Wotc is going to be interested in a one-off product. A licence? Maybe. But not until GH is not the default and not so long as LG is alive and kicking. 4th Edition may bring about the necessary changes to set up an environment conducive to a license. Maybe.
Just for grins, assuming a license were let, I completely disagree with a lot of what has been said. Get Mona to do it? No. With no offense to Erik, he will give you more of the same. Get Holian to do it? No. With no offense to Gary, he is as much Mona as Mona. Both guys are greatGreyhawk "scholars," in that they can tell you what was said in what product and what they think that does and should mean. IMO, that is the kiss of death for a revived Greyhawk product or line.
Greyhawk fandom can be divided into four broad groups, IMO.
The Fanboys - They love Gygax more than Greyhawk or conflate the two. This is a medium sized group. You are not going to sell them anything unless it is Gygax connected. Forget them.
The OGs - Original Greyhawkers. They have been playing forever but are not tied to Gygax. They have followed Greyhawk's evolution through Sargent to Mona etc., to various degrees. This is a largish group. They are dedicated to the setting and will follow it to hell and back, unless you replace Iuz with Spongebob Squarepants. You can count on them. So, because they are in the bag, forget them.
The LGs - The Living Greyhawkers. Living Greyhawk is Greyhawk to this group, which is very large, much beyond their sheer numbers. Unfortunately, many are just interested in playing a "Living" game, not really Greyhawk. When LG is no more, only a fraction will stay with Greyhawk. So, forget them.
The New Hawkers - These would be OGs but didn't start early enough. They are a smallish group. Somehow they found Greyhawk and will follow it like the OGs. So, like the OGs, forget them.
Mona and Holian are OGs. You know what you will get - something immiently saleable to the OGs, NewHawkers, and those LGs who stick around. That guarantees you enough sales to lose money, or barely break even with either a huge price or a micro-print run (if the later doesn't necessitate the former) or a PDF release.
What you need is someone who can see beyond the parochial interests of the entrenched fans to get to new fans. That means, IMO, leaving behind the conventions of Greyhawk and giving Greyhawk a new look that is related to, but not slavishly indebted to, the conventions of Greyhawk. If the present conventions of Greyhawk sold, Wotc would be all over it. They are not and for a reason. Conventional Greyhawk does not draw beyond its limited fanbase. Going to the fanbase to get ideas on how to relaunch GH is "carrying coals to Newcastle."
If I had the call to make, I'd get a quality designer like Wolf Bauer or Rich Baker and tell them, "Its got to look like Greyhawk but otherwise I want you to cut loose." That would be part of my business case.
Greyhawk needs new blood, and that includes both fans and designers. The idea that fan-authors, who are steeped in Greyhawk, can best relaunch Greyhawk is, IMO, the worst sort of delusional fantasy. I like and respect these guys but they are Old School and that is exactly what has not sold. A Bauer or Baker etc. are designers first and fans of any setting second. This is what is needed, quality design, not beholding to any fannish impulses.
For example,for many fans, killing Iuz would be FORBIDDEN! The list of fan FORBIDDENS can easily be added to. You can't get to new fans with the list of FORBIDDENS that almost any "serious" Greyhawk fan would bring to his or her design because when you get through with the FORBIDDENS, there is not a lot of room left to design in a way that will produce something sufficiently different to stand a chance of drawing new fans and not just "preaching to choir" of existing fans.
Whether fans like it or not, Greyhawk must change, and likely in significant ways, to gain the kind of popularity that will ensure a relaunch as anything other than yet another false start. If we are talking business that is and not just fannish enthusiasm. We are talking business right? As in business school? As in profit margins? As in return on investment? Not just fans jonesing. Right?
IMO
GVD
...unless you replace Iuz with Spongebob Squarepants.
ummm...too late!!! :D
I'm just saying, be careful with the "change Greyhawk for everyone" idea. Some people like Greyhawk to be changed their own way, not as dictated by someone else.
Art is going to be a big part of the project, one thing that really caught our eyes, and held our attention was the complete workover that WOTC did on the 3rd ed books, leaps and bounds ahead of the earlier products, and really set a feeling and tone for everything that followed.To that end we have several semi-proffesional and even very talented amature artists, that we will be tapping into for the "window dressing" of the product.
Some of the subject material to be illustrated will be the myriad human cultures and non-human societies, borrowing heavily from sources that offer the detail we need.
Again as in every product that is written for RPers there will be stuff you will love and use and some stuff you don't, what we really want to present is a visualization of a setting that we have "lived in and died in" for the many years of our gaming history.
And again with all due respect to the above named experts in the world of greyhawk, and the work that Living greyhawk has done for the setiting, we are just hoping to add something else to the mix..not replace it with "our vision" of what everybody should think of when it comes to this ancient setting, and once this ball starts rolling abit faster we will still be happy to bring onboard anyone with ideas and concepts that work for what we are doing.
One thing we are steering clear of is pages and pages of new spells, and spell lists, that has been covered in detail with the numerous sourcebooks and corebooks for 3rd ED.
What we are contemplating is pages filled with examples of buildings and structures from around Greyhawk "couching houses of keoland, watch keeps of furyondy, blood pits of hextor...and so forth with a eye to give players and gms alike food for their creative machines.
Also being planned is mass combat section for the d20 system, that will be tailored for the greyhawk setting, that is currently being tabletop tested , with some great results so far,the main thing that is difficult is the huge variety of actions and spells, and magic items /effects that 3rd ED d20 has to offer and boiling down the effects/results for the system...that and making sure that PCs can actually be used with the system and perhaps make a difference to the outcome of battles.
But as to any major tampering with the history and nations of the world, we are not planning on making Iuz take up tennis, and join the pelor for supreme god commitee
, all of the major ideas and threads that have already been set down in the gazateers and modules are holy writ as far as we are concerned, where we go from there is what we will be contemplating,but rest assured I have nothing but love and respect for this little world of imagination that is greyhawk, and want nothing but the best for it.And as to bussiness plans and such, well we are keeping that fairly close to the chest right now, and if a liscense is not able to be obtained we are still going to release this product under another name, and make it as "compatible" as possible with greyhawk "within the confines of the D20 open liscense that is
)But keep the ideas and veiws coming, everything the fans have to say we want to hear..good and bad, although the good is more fun to read ;) .
thanks for the attention.
If that's not possible, I would prefer no new changes whatsoever. "Freeze" the setting chronologically where it is in the LGG and leave it frozen indefinitely. Develop the world, but forget about exploring the "future." GH was never supposed to be about that. Leave that to GMs.
I guess you would call me a New Hawkers/Fanboy. I never read a word about Greyhawk before I bought the LGG and I've since gone back and purchased the original box set on ebay and sought-out and read most of Gygax's old Dragon articles dealing with GH. Honestly, I prefer the world as it was originally published. However, I'm not a "Gygax fanboy" and I have nothing against non-Gygax material as long as the writers respect the world as it was intended and don't go running roughshod all over it just to create sensation and "shake things up" in the manner of the Greyhawk Wars or Time of Troubles from FR (where I also prefer Ed Greenwood's original take over the sweeping changes made in the 2nd Edition era).
I guess all that detailed qualification just illustrates the folly of trying to fit GH fans into four arbitrary catagories, huh?
The New Hawkers - These would be OGs but didn't start early enough. They are a smallish group. Somehow they found Greyhawk and will follow it like the OGs. So, like the OGs, forget them.
Hey! That's me! :D
Don't essentially wipe out the Greyhawk Wars, like Yamo said... (
I had a slight idea that your name referred to a famous Commodore game from my times, looked at your page, and... RIGHT! ;) )But really, what needs to be done, IMO, is to bring back Greyhawk from being *dark fantasy* to *medieval fantasy*.
Because, until the great war, WoG was a very viable and open setting; now with so many archvillains out there, so many twists and turns in the setting's history, one has to simplify it in great part to make it viable for newbies...
Also, a chapter based around political strugles, might be interresting to those who prefer roleplay over Hack n' Slash
just my
I'd like to see details on greyhawk organizations like the forgotten realms lords of darkness supplement.
Same here. To name the obvious, I'd like to see resources discussing organizations like Blackthorn, The Gnarley Rangers, The Silent Ones (I know they appeared in LGJ), The Seekers, The Scarlet Brotherhood (updated), The Black Brotherhood, The Knights of Luna, The Knights of the Watch, The Knights of Great Kingdom, etc. There are so many others that should be listed, but as I said, these are the obvious.
LOL!
I don't think Wotc is going to be interested in a one-off product. A licence? Maybe. But not until GH is not the default and not so long as LG is alive and kicking. 4th Edition may bring about the necessary changes to set up an environment conducive to a license. Maybe.
Just for grins, assuming a license were let, I completely disagree with a lot of what has been said. Get Mona to do it? No. With no offense to Erik, he will give you more of the same. Get Holian to do it? No. With no offense to Gary, he is as much Mona as Mona. Both guys are greatGreyhawk "scholars," in that they can tell you what was said in what product and what they think that does and should mean. IMO, that is the kiss of death for a revived Greyhawk product or line.
Greyhawk fandom can be divided into four broad groups, IMO.
The Fanboys - They love Gygax more than Greyhawk or conflate the two. This is a medium sized group. You are not going to sell them anything unless it is Gygax connected. Forget them.
The OGs - Original Greyhawkers. They have been playing forever but are not tied to Gygax. They have followed Greyhawk's evolution through Sargent to Mona etc., to various degrees. This is a largish group. They are dedicated to the setting and will follow it to hell and back, unless you replace Iuz with Spongebob Squarepants. You can count on them. So, because they are in the bag, forget them.
The LGs - The Living Greyhawkers. Living Greyhawk is Greyhawk to this group, which is very large, much beyond their sheer numbers. Unfortunately, many are just interested in playing a "Living" game, not really Greyhawk. When LG is no more, only a fraction will stay with Greyhawk. So, forget them.
The New Hawkers - These would be OGs but didn't start early enough. They are a smallish group. Somehow they found Greyhawk and will follow it like the OGs. So, like the OGs, forget them.
Mona and Holian are OGs. You know what you will get - something immiently saleable to the OGs, NewHawkers, and those LGs who stick around. That guarantees you enough sales to lose money, or barely break even with either a huge price or a micro-print run (if the later doesn't necessitate the former) or a PDF release.
What you need is someone who can see beyond the parochial interests of the entrenched fans to get to new fans. That means, IMO, leaving behind the conventions of Greyhawk and giving Greyhawk a new look that is related to, but not slavishly indebted to, the conventions of Greyhawk. If the present conventions of Greyhawk sold, Wotc would be all over it. They are not and for a reason. Conventional Greyhawk does not draw beyond its limited fanbase. Going to the fanbase to get ideas on how to relaunch GH is "carrying coals to Newcastle."
If I had the call to make, I'd get a quality designer like Wolf Bauer or Rich Baker and tell them, "Its got to look like Greyhawk but otherwise I want you to cut loose." That would be part of my business case.
Greyhawk needs new blood, and that includes both fans and designers. The idea that fan-authors, who are steeped in Greyhawk, can best relaunch Greyhawk is, IMO, the worst sort of delusional fantasy. I like and respect these guys but they are Old School and that is exactly what has not sold. A Bauer or Baker etc. are designers first and fans of any setting second. This is what is needed, quality design, not beholding to any fannish impulses.
For example,for many fans, killing Iuz would be FORBIDDEN! The list of fan FORBIDDENS can easily be added to. You can't get to new fans with the list of FORBIDDENS that almost any "serious" Greyhawk fan would bring to his or her design because when you get through with the FORBIDDENS, there is not a lot of room left to design in a way that will produce something sufficiently different to stand a chance of drawing new fans and not just "preaching to choir" of existing fans.
Whether fans like it or not, Greyhawk must change, and likely in significant ways, to gain the kind of popularity that will ensure a relaunch as anything other than yet another false start. If we are talking business that is and not just fannish enthusiasm. We are talking business right? As in business school? As in profit margins? As in return on investment? Not just fans jonesing. Right?
IMO
GVD
Greyhawk must change? Needs new fanbase? Maybe we should start calling it the Forgotten Realms, that would certainly make it more popular. I'll stick with quality over quantity. If Greyhawk isn't for everybody, so what?
Greyhawk is never going to be where the money is or most popular. The problem is that Greyhawk was complete 25 years ago as the campaign it needed to be, a campaign for DMs to develop, not a company.
A Players Guide to Greyhawk makes no sense as a product. There is no codified Greyhawk setting in detail outside of the LG campaign. There is no Greyhawk Campaign Setting in print, no Greyhawk material being released by Hasbro. The bulk of the current fanbase runs their own unique versions of Greyhawk and any Player's Guide published would be unable to reflect these campaigns.
Still I applaud any attempts to publish more campaign variants on Greyhawk, but I think it would be more profitable to make the guide as adabtable as possible and not just for a Greyhawk campaign.
Greyhawk must change? Needs new fanbase? Maybe we should start calling it the Forgotten Realms, that would certainly make it more popular. I'll stick with quality over quantity. If Greyhawk isn't for everybody, so what?
Greyhawk is never going to be where the money is or most popular. The problem is that Greyhawk was complete 25 years ago as the campaign it needed to be, a campaign for DMs to develop, not a company.
A Players Guide to Greyhawk makes no sense as a product. There is no codified Greyhawk setting in detail outside of the LG campaign. There is no Greyhawk Campaign Setting in print, no Greyhawk material being released by Hasbro. The bulk of the current fanbase runs their own unique versions of Greyhawk and any Player's Guide published would be unable to reflect these campaigns.
Still I applaud any attempts to publish more campaign variants on Greyhawk, but I think it would be more profitable to make the guide as adabtable as possible and not just for a Greyhawk campaign.
I whole-heartedly agree, but I think players and DMs could benefit from good resources such as one that covers the various organizations (see above post), a non-FR Underdark, a collection of PrCs and magic items specific to Greyhawk as seen in older publications, and perhaps some regional resources or a collection of maps of various cities such as Verbobonc, Greyhawk, Dyvers, etc. heck, I've been striving for maps of the ruins of Chathold and would love to see something of that sort.
all of the major ideas and threads that have already been set down in the gazateers and modules are holy writ as far as we are concerned . . ..
Well, then, you're doomed.
You'll spend your money, assuming Wotc allows that, heh, and you'll produce a novelty product that will sell poorly, loose you money and further complicate future considerations of canon as well as future attempts to make Greyhawk a going concern. Are you sure you wouldn't rather donate to tsunami relief? Or just write a Dragon or Dungeon article?if a liscense is not able to be obtained we are still going to release this product under another name, and make it as "compatible" as possible with greyhawk "within the confines of the D20 open liscense that is
So the evil Eooze threatens the good kingdom of Furryondy, led by noble King Belvidere in the world of Greyhoge? The mad archmage Xadxax works for the god of magic, Kornkob, to achieve the Cosmological Constant, aided by the wizard Mordenheim and the Circumference of 18. But Mordenheim and the Circumference are opposed by the Bright Pink Brotherhood and the remnants of the Horney Society. Not to mention Harry the Traitor and Sir Globular, who divided the Circumference of 18 in two when they disrupted the ratification of the Factoids of Greyhoge after the end of the Big Big War started by Livid the Unliving.
Dread Mire ::cough:: Dread Mire ::cough::
Greyhawk must change? Needs new fanbase? Maybe we should start calling it the Forgotten Realms, that would certainly make it more popular. I'll stick with quality over quantity. If Greyhawk isn't for everybody, so what?
Greyhawk is never going to be where the money is or most popular. The problem is that Greyhawk was complete 25 years ago as the campaign it needed to be, a campaign for DMs to develop, not a company.
A Players Guide to Greyhawk makes no sense as a product.
LOL! Spoken like an Original Greyhawker! Greyhawk achieved perfection in 1980. Don't change a hair! ROFLMAO! They only come out at night. ;)
Greyhawk isn't for everybody? Certainly not anybody looking to publish Greyhawk on a sound business footing, not with that attitude.
That you choose to compare any thought of change imagined to attract enough fans to make Greyhawk a financially going concern with the seemingly eternal bogey-man (or is that straw man?) of the Forgotten Realms is laughable. As is the "quality over quantity" comment which assumes that change would somehow, inherently, not be of any quality. Hit that panic button! LOL!
But for different reasons that I've stated, I agree that the proposed project is a non-starter on the terms presented.
Btw, I love your Index. Why don't you include 3rd Edition Greyhawk references, such as those in the Complete Arcane etc.? Just a thought. :D
Whatever the players guide is, it should compliment the LGG in my opinion. What is written there is good, but the general lack of details on each of the races with their own attributes and stats is important to put inot a new Player's Guide. RACES (human, and all types of demi-humans), classes, feats, etc are important for this project. There doens't have to be a ton of "crunch", but it seems like a Player's Guide screams a fair amount of it (crunch).
Just some thoughts.
....................................Omote
FPQ
Same here. To name the obvious, I'd like to see resources discussing organizations like Blackthorn, The Gnarley Rangers, The Silent Ones (I know they appeared in LGJ), The Seekers, The Scarlet Brotherhood (updated), The Black Brotherhood, The Knights of Luna, The Knights of the Watch, The Knights of Great Kingdom, etc. There are so many others that should be listed, but as I said, these are the obvious.
There are resources for some of those in the LG campaign. Do you intend to replace those completely?
Further, the way most of those are hardwired into the background, do you have ideas to use them as intended by their creators? Or do you just want something that will be cool for them? That led to a disaster with three modules in GH 98, Star Cairns, Tomb of Lyzandred, and Doomgrinder. Are you up to risking a repeat of that?
Of course, I've got my own plans for expanding on the Sheldomar. So I don't need anything coming out that would contradict that. (And I am expecting that I'll contradict a bunch of other material, and attract haters because of that, but I'm used to that. :D ) But that's how it goes in the world of Greyhawk fandom. :P
There are resources for some of those in the LG campaign. Do you intend to replace those completely?
Further, the way most of those are hardwired into the background, do you have ideas to use them as intended by their creators? Or do you just want something that will be cool for them? That led to a disaster with three modules in GH 98, Star Cairns, Tomb of Lyzandred, and Doomgrinder. Are you up to risking a repeat of that?
Of course, I've got my own plans for expanding on the Sheldomar. So I don't need anything coming out that would contradict that. (And I am expecting that I'll contradict a bunch of other material, and attract haters because of that, but I'm used to that. :D ) But that's how it goes in the world of Greyhawk fandom. :P
1. Don't get me started on the LG "Campaign." I hate the fact that I can't obtain resources that are "retired" or from a region not my own. In my opinion, the LG "Campaign" is worthless to the general home player and DM.
2. My only reason for wanting materials for these organizations is to have NPCs with which the PCs can interact. As an example, I don't neccessarily want a PrC for the Gnarley Rangers; to me they are just rangers who work together in the Gnarley. I do want NPC information and or information about the organizationas a whole. If there is a PrC for them, then I can review it and take it or leave it.
I'd also like more information on Blackthorn so that when my players travel through the Gnarley, I know what Blackthorn's interaction with them would be like. Right now, all I have is a name, nothing more.
3. The nice thing about published materials contradicting your personal campaign is that you can ignore it. No one is going to arrest you if you do. Personally, I like having resources available because it saves me time from having to come up with it all myself. I'm a busy person with responsibilities other than playing a game.
2. If you want more information on those you can make it up yourself. Or you could check some relevant LG regions to see what information they have. As for not needing a Gnarley Ranger Prestige Class, that is precisely the trend of published products. Give a group a name and someone eventually wants to give it a Prestige Class. Be careful what you wish for when you ask for a sourcebook.
3. The not so nice thing about being involved in Greyhawk is that when you contradict anything, published or not, someone is there to get in your face. Even if you don't contradict anything there will be people looking to get in your face because they are too busy to surf on over and download a few pdf files from a website.
I started playing D&D right at the tail end of 1st edition, and the first book I bought was the 2nd ed. Player's Handbook. I didn't start DMing until 3rd ed. came out. It was only recently that I got my hands on the 1st ed. Dungeon Master's Guide for the first time, and one aspect of it really blew my mind. In describing artifacts - maybe just the major artifacts, not sure right now - the book had blank lines and tables that you could use to randomly fill them. The reason for that was so that each campaign could make those artifacts unique, and so that players, devious lot that they are, wouldn't know what the things do just by getting their grubby little hands on a copy of the DMG. (Canon? What's that?) Imagine a game setting based on the same philosophy. I understand that Greyhawk started out more like that - lots of things left vague, for the individual DM to fill in - but the true meaning of that never really hit me until I saw the 1st ed. DMG.
My point is this: what I'd like to see, if there is ever a new Greyhawk sourcebook - regardless of whether it comes from WotC or some third party - is something that provides all sorts of options without necessarily trying to define any kind of canon. Want to play a historical campaign? It's in there. Want to play an alternate history campaign? It's in there. Want to play a futuristic campaign? It's in there. Different parts of Oerth? In there. You get the idea. Something that facilitates all sorts of different options and lets the players and DMs choose.
1. Don't get me started on the LG campaign. You can get plenty of resources from all regions if you just go to their websites or ask on their mailing lists. The only thing you can't get are modules. The LG campaign is of incredible use to home players and DMs who create their own adventures.
2. If you want more information on those you can make it up yourself. Or you could check some relevant LG regions to see what information they have. As for not needing a Gnarley Ranger Prestige Class, that is precisely the trend of published products. Give a group a name and someone eventually wants to give it a Prestige Class. Be careful what you wish for when you ask for a sourcebook.
3. The not so nice thing about being involved in Greyhawk is that when you contradict anything, published or not, someone is there to get in your face. Even if you don't contradict anything there will be people looking to get in your face because they are too busy to surf on over and download a few pdf files from a website.
1. It's the modules that I want. That they are not allowed to be used for home use is just plain stupid and a waste of some potentially valuable resources for home GH games. Heck, I'd even be willing to pay a small fee for those "retired" adventures.
2. As I already said, I don't have a whole lot of time to "make it up." I have other responsibilities, social or otherwise. I've ignored, rejected or tweaked PrCs before, I can do it again. My players are my closest friends, and they won't care one way or another. Heck i the PrC is good, I'll use it!
3. So you're promoting downloadable materials of the LG while complaining about players "getting in your face" because of materials they downloaded and read?
By GVD's definition I'm an OG, 21 years of Greyhawk and we're not slaves to Gygax's version. Our campaigns are cyclical and ever evolving. We have played many campaigns and simply started over again at the default timeline. Our current campaign is set 25 years in the future. There is NO ONE who has played the same characters since the dawn of Greyhawk, that's just ridiculous. My DM uses/adapts what he likes, adapts what he has already created, and discards what he doesn't like from either. I would welcome a players guide just to get some fresh ideas. If I don't like it, I won't buy it or I'll do as my DM does.
2. Prestige Classes aren't in modules. They are background resources that are available from LG regions for anyone to use.
3. No. I'm promoting LG materials because some people insist on trying to defame it. I also issued a caveat to go with my comments on a project as I want to be a competitor not a consumer.
It's very simple Amaril. Just because LG isn't giving you whatever you demand whenever you demand it does not mean it is somehow flawed or inferior. You can feel free to denounce it all you want, but I will feel free to support it, and to rebut any unwarranted complaints against it.
1. If you want adventures then say you want adventures. Don't go saying that LG material isn't available when it very much is. As for paying for them, go check the shelves of your local gaming store. They should be overflowing with available modules. More, go to the downloads section of this website and pick up 50+ free modules.
2. Prestige Classes aren't in modules. They are background resources that are available from LG regions for anyone to use.
3. No. I'm promoting LG materials because some people insist on trying to defame it. I also issued a caveat to go with my comments on a project as I want to be a competitor not a consumer.
It's very simple Amaril. Just because LG isn't giving you whatever you demand whenever you demand it does not mean it is somehow flawed or inferior. You can feel free to denounce it all you want, but I will feel free to support it, and to rebut any unwarranted complaints against it.
1. I'm sorry that I misused the word "materials". I want very Greyhawk specific adventures as adventures often have reference materials, too, such as city maps, significant NPCs, etc. I have the free adventures from WotC's site. While they are of good quality, they're too short and are sometimes difficult to tie into a preconceived campaign's story arc.
2. I don't want PrCs from adventures, let alone PrCs specifically. If you actually read my post above, you'll have noticed that I want information on the organizations, not neccessarily PrCs for those organizations. Now if the PrCs are good, then I wll use them, but it's not something I specifically wish for.
My suggestion for information on such organizations was part of a "wish list" for what I would like to see published in new Greyhawk material. Allow me to add that I specifically want a book that I can store on a shelf or carry with me without having to waste ink and paper.
3. I don't mean to bash the Living Greyhawk Campaign so much as I mean to bash the RPGA's restrictions on using "adventures" for personal games, let alone being able to obtain "retired adventures."
I will give credit to the LGC for providing some reference materials, most of which has actually been published in the Living Greyhawk Journals. Recently, I've made great use of Nyrond's site, but I still get extremely frustrated by the extensive lists of scenarios that are unavailable to me because I live in a different region, despite the fact that they could be extremely useful in my personal campaign.
I am NOT asking the LGC to give me what I want when I want it. I am asking for some form of a Greyhawk-specific product that I can purchase and use regardless of what "region" I live in. If they took the retired scenarios, which have the Greyhawk specific material that I want to access, and republished them as adventure modules for sale at a bookstore or on Amazon.com, I'd be one of the first to buy them.
With all that said, can we get off our LGC soapboxes and continue with a construtive thread on the original posters' subject?
My point is this: what I'd like to see, if there is ever a new Greyhawk sourcebook - regardless of whether it comes from WotC or some third party - is something that provides all sorts of options without necessarily trying to define any kind of canon. Want to play a historical campaign? It's in there. Want to play an alternate history campaign? It's in there. Want to play a futuristic campaign? It's in there. Different parts of Oerth? In there. You get the idea. Something that facilitates all sorts of different options and lets the players and DMs choose.
Exactly. There is so much Greyhawk material out that IMO, there is simply no need for JUST ANOTHER (updated) LGG. To the contrary, a COMPREHENSIVE DICTIONARY of the Flanaess and its environs is just what I would need for my campaign. Such a book would preserve the *open* flavour of the setting AND help newbies.A Players Guide to Greyhawk makes no sense as a product. There is no codified Greyhawk setting in detail outside of the LG campaign. There is no Greyhawk Campaign Setting in print, no Greyhawk material being released by Hasbro. The bulk of the current fanbase runs their own unique versions of Greyhawk and any Player's Guide published would be unable to reflect these campaigns.
I am glad that you said this so openly. My defintion of PG is a short description of a setting, such as the Wilderlands PG, which for me is the measure for similar products, e. g. an abridged campaign setting.
But hey, wake up! There are tons of writings for every corner of the Flanaess, printed or as data! Just type a random place name at google, and look what you get! Not to speak of the LG sites that also give very detailed infos about nearly every important city or region! Given that almost every player or (more important) every actual DM owns at least some form of *updated* 591 CY Gaz, what use had such a PG?
If, then better do some *campaign* that takes the world a few steps into a brighter future! (=Kill Iuz...)
;)
Besides, I am quite happy with the fan base, my fellow Oerthians!
With all that said, can we get off our LGC soapboxes and continue with a construtive thread on the original posters' subject?
Actually, I think it provides a very significant example for anyone considering such a project. Using your numbers:
1. You might be surprised at just what is in most LG adventures. Many are heavily tied into their own plotlines and thus not particularly convertible. Others are extremely light on relevant NPCs and other background. So they may not be very useful to you even if you could get them.
That being said, consider the other element. If what you, and others, really want is modules, then a sourcebook is not going to be of all that much use. Instead, either an adventure path style series of modules (or single super-module), a number of unconnected general modules, or a more restricted location (like just a village or small town) with multiple adventure seeds given or developed for it would be better. As it happens, I would jump on something like that myself.
2. Focus on organizations tends to come either with heavy development just of the organizations, including very heavy rules for them and prestige classes, or as part of regional development. At least that's how they've appeared in all recent products I've seen.
The bigger issue with these is the method of development. As someone who has been involved with the development of one major and one minor organization in Keoland, as well as an additional "homebrew" organization (major and minor as relating to the mention in the LGG) for LG, I can tell you just how difficult it can be to develop someone else's organization, not to mention fit a new organization in to an existing situation.
3. As has been explained many time, the RPGA policy towards LG adventures is related to copyright issues. If you'd like to discuss those legal issues, take it up with them directly, or comment on it in an appropriate forum. Right now the situation is as bad as it was with the Dragon CD compilation. They probably don't know where several authors are, and others probably don't want to have anything to do with the RGPA for various reasons.
This has actually been noted already. How the product could be altered to strip any GH references and be D20 compliant. And a comment was made about another product that had some "issues" related to that. This isn't a simple issue. It won't be resolved just because people want more material, it is just too difficult. It would take a definite change in how the RPGA does things, and a significant change in its budget, to accomplish.
So its a lot more than just LG. That is just a sample of what a new GH product will be like, and the problems it will face.
If you don't mind, please post here tom inform us about the newest developments!
My role in this is creative head, and management of the artwork and content ( articles and such, the legal side is actually taken care of by a few of my fellows that specialize in publishing and marketing backgrounds.)
But I can tell you what has made our initial cut of content.
#1 article on Horsebreeds of the Flanease including stats and backgrounds for mounts bred in geographic areas of Greyhawk.
Also included will be a horse trait chart to generate random quirks and adjusted prices of the mounts, in all about 4-5 pages.
#2 Color plates depicting peoples of Greyhawk and their styles of clothing and armor and weapons, with an accompaning breakdown of the relevant rules for anything shown (weapon/armor wise) 7-11 pages
#3 A By race description of the human/elven/dwarven/halfling and other main races of greyhawk, with accompaning illustrations, the body of text will include rules for specific races and flavor text describing examples of communities in Greyhawk, again with a heavy emphasis on artwork and background.15-22 pages
some of the other articles we are looking at is a study on some of the fauna of the Flanease, and perhaps a depiction or two of various personages of Greyhawk, but again this is still a work in progress, the above mentioned projects are the first on our plates, and after those are completed we will see what fits in next.
again thanks for your intrest, and I will keep the updates coming.
Take each Greyhawk region and list the three most prevalent classes for that region, the three most prevalent prestige classes, the three most prevalent trained skills, and the three most prevalent feats.
Make sure that you include material from the Complete books and possibly Expanded Psionics Handbook as well.
Of course these are your suggestions/opinions and don't have to be followed, but they would save a lot of effort on my part to read through a hundred prestige classes and make a decision if they should be included in a Greyhawk campaign.
Another option would be to take each prestige class and write a short paragraph explaining how they could fit in to the campaign.
If you want to make new Prestige Classes to flesh out an organization, only do so if you have properly playtested them. There are so many out there, that I think it would be easier to adopt an existing one.
In an old Dragon magazine, Gygax wrote an article for Greyhawk that included birth tables and social class hierarchies. I still depend on these tables to help a PC establish a backstory when they are first created. This goes a long way toward giving the player ideas on how to roleplay the character.
These are the kinds of things that I am looking forward to seeing in your book.
The standard of every player's book in the D20 setting is an annoying rules-heavy book with plenty of especific feats (that rarelly is actually relevant to the setting) and plenty of prestige classes that, even if they add to the setting by being specific designed for it, are usually crap and not more than a bunch of powers, advantages and disadvantes that were as unimaginative as possible.
I Liked the LGG because it had almost no rules! Save for the god's domains and very few exceptions. I don't think that's what the normal (non-diehard-hawker) buyer will look for.
If I could give you a couple of suggestions I'd say: go back to Gigax idea, very little new detail, the LGG already has enough detail to allow decades of adventures. Also you'll have to include rules or face poor sales... but you can try to make it as linked to the scenario as possible, if it is not something that you'd not imagine outside greyhawk it is not worth putting in the book.
Also tell the DMs and Players what options are possible and what are not, which prestige classes and feats are ok and which are not permited... many of them are just unsuited to the setting! But few 'world designers' had the guts to say: 'no halfling sorcerors here!' or 'there are no eldrich knights in my world!' - I don't know if you'll be brave enough to do it, people got used to the 'half dragon halfling sorceror who becomes a fulchan lyrist and will become a...' (oh GOD! Help! HELP!).
And NPCs... the big advantage of GH is that evil has a very clear face! Turrok mask, Ivid, Iuz, lolth and many others are named vilains, not some "member of the 'blah blah blah' wizards". Organizations are fine and some faceless evil is ok, but try to give each threat a face and personal name whenever possible.
I wish you the best of luck!
I've been using background info from all the old boxed sets, the LGG, old modules, Canonfire, Oerth Journal, Dungeon & Dragon articles and modules, and the LGG websites and forums. After three years, I don't think I've fully finished a single entry for any one country!
The closest parts I've got to finishing are Zeif and Verbobonc and Zeif may finally be done by the end of May! The plan was that once finished, each country could be stored in a ring binder and updated periodically with news and new information as it surfaces.
Since much of the material is copyrighted, this will only ever be for my own personal use, I'm afraid. However, I found that official supplements are edited, every article seems to have slightly different information, and it can be a nightmare trying to cross-reference information.
I may be dead before I finish it, but I'll keep plodding along. I would certainly be interested in a new sourcebook with even more info. Please just steer clear of Zeif so I don't have to revisit my notes for a while.
Cheers! :D
But I can tell you what has made our initial cut of content.
#1 article on Horsebreeds of the Flanease including stats and backgrounds for mounts bred in geographic areas of Greyhawk.
Also included will be a horse trait chart to generate random quirks and adjusted prices of the mounts, in all about 4-5 pages.
#2 Color plates depicting peoples of Greyhawk and their styles of clothing and armor and weapons, with an accompaning breakdown of the relevant rules for anything shown (weapon/armor wise) 7-11 pages
#3 A By race description of the human/elven/dwarven/halfling and other main races of greyhawk, with accompaning illustrations, the body of text will include rules for specific races and flavor text describing examples of communities in Greyhawk, again with a heavy emphasis on artwork and background.15-22 pages
some of the other articles we are looking at is a study on some of the fauna of the Flanease, and perhaps a depiction or two of various personages of Greyhawk, but again this is still a work in progress, the above mentioned projects are the first on our plates, and after those are completed we will see what fits in next.
The original World of Greyhawk-box mentioned trade and the most important resources for each nation. They could be developed in modules.
For instance if silver is the most important material that would imply mining towns, trade routes etc. Develop mining towns, NPC-specialists, caravan-masters and their routes, maybe a keep nearby to protect these valuables and some warehouses where you can find tools and provisions.
The WoG box contained a few pages on the fauna and flora of these regions. While we can find lots of material on the internet, it would be nice to develop these in a consistent way (GH) also keeping an eye on the spells needing material components.
A lot of cities have harbours. Why not develop a few with different sorts of ships, harbormasters, traders, dockers, warehouses, inns and tavers?
Same goes for religions. While some temples have been developed in minute detail, other religions were left without much clues as to what their priests would look like, the rituals performed, the layout of the temple or monastery.
Same goes for cities. Provide us with a basic population and layout in an average city. The baker and bucher around the corner. The lanternmaker or bowyer. Who are they (names, families, backgrounds), how do they live (in accordance to the medieval way of life).
All these modules could easily be introduced in the game and lighten the work of the DM's. Nobody would be obliged to use them. As a DM I like to develop NPC's. Actually after a hard day at work it feels refreshing to start a new file and imagine what it would be like to live in a city like for instance Greyhawk. I have hundreds of inhabitants at my disposal (arranged in different social layers) and a simple diceroll decides who opens the door. But it is reasonable to expect that a lot of DM's don't have the patience to develop them, nor the time (25+ years) which I had.
Greetings.
I've been using npcs from the old module, 'the Day of Al'Akbar' for use in the city of Zeif to give it the same sort of depth that the city of Greyhawk has, but it's hard going.
Well such is the nature of bussiness, so we will be turning our attentions to another project at this time, I sincerly appreciate the input from all the sources here, and am grateful for your time.
well unfortunatly our project has come to a screaming halt, upon the answer of the legal dept, and response to our inquires for a liscense deal, no such 3rd party participation is permisable regardless of quality of content.
Yeah, we knew that before you did. Here's the thread:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=395908
Good luck on your future projects, though.
The big question is, would this be legal? I mean, is it really any different from a DM posting his (extremely detailed) campaign notes on his website?
Of course, this topic has probably been brought up before so feel free to bash my head against a wall if it has been discussed ad nauseum.
