The Githyanki Incursion from the Dragon/Dungeon crossover has come to Athas. The Githyanki have come to finish what they started in the Black Spine adventure. Because of their Red Dragon pact with Ephelemon, Githyanki dragonriders have brought their red allies to Athas to lay waste to the world. The Sorcerer Kings and Queens, now full dragons, see that this new threat involves dragons of otherworldly origin and realize that they have to deal with this new threat personally. The timeline is that presented in the Dragon/Dungeon crossover detailing Dark Sun.
Who'd win? The Red Dragons or the Sorcerer Kings? State how and why, what powers/tactics would be brought to bear by each side.
Barring all that, dragonhide armor would be all the rage on Athas !!!! Light and strong as metal, without that pesky frying-in-your-armor side effect!
red dragons got nothing on the SKs. Quantity against quality. Eventually the quality would win though. Especially with the whole i'm-gonna-suck-your-life-energy-to-power-a-spell-to-burn-what's-left-of-you-to-a-crisp dynamic of athasian dragons.
Borys, back then a 21st Level Champion was wounded by Rkard (not mortally but unable to move on his own), who was surely an epic Fighter/ Psionicist or Elemental Cleric. The first Butcher was killed by the dwarven Earthlords. So they can be wounded and killed, an Army of "extremly intelligent" Red Great Wyrms (or Epic Red Dragons) is probably enough to take a single SK down, they would have to use all their ressources (armies etc.) to stay alive or they would have to fight as a Team. IIRC some of the most powerful Dragons deal with the Gods themselves, they are no cannonfodder for Githyanki.
One on one there are no more powerful Dragons then the athasian ones, not even the Stellar Dragons would stand their ground very long, IMO. The only Dragons that would be a challange for, say Borys, would be Tiamat and Bahamut, and I would say the chances are 70-50 in favour of Borys.
yes, the Sk's are powerful, but they aren't all powerful, they still need time to recoup. A big enough force could take them down. And if they are smart enough to research their enemies, heck, I'd send in a few legions of petty dragons to be absorbed, specially enchanted, to have their life energies spoil the spells memorised by the SK's.. so that each HD absorbed, erases a spell. they wanna defile? sure, but watch out, the milk's sour!
now if the SK's knew what was up and went after the other guys, at the entrance to the Plane of Athas, they'd have no prob.
And if you had the SK's vs Tiamat?? Sorry guys, but Psionic Enchantments are not the same as Divine Deity level magic... when was the last time you saw a SK create life? or grant immortality as a curse?? Send down a cataclism or two? or grant a whole package of innate abilities to a mortal by granting him a divinely appointed office?? (I'm talking Elminster the Chosen or Magister style, not priestly spells). Psionic Enchantments were able to grant a kings age of extended life, 77 years right?? or so? That's hardly immortality.. and if they were really that powerful, they wouldn't need to take part in that dragon's levy to seal rajaat. He'd be done, gone, sealed.. but no, rajaat, even away from any other power source is still beating at their spells, its like they can't ever seem to completely overtake his SR.
Anyway, the Dragons coming in, would get stomped against an organized effort if you play them as beasts with spells, but if you play them as creatures of legend, they may have a chance, and throw in a few surprises. (personally though, I'd like a new set of red boots and a shiney new sword.)
Single SK vs a small group of Dragons, no informations about the enemy on each side, the SK should wind, but only if the Group is really small (we still talk about Great/Epic Wyrms here right?), but he shouldn't stand long against say, 30 of those beasts, and few Gods should
. Borys or Dregoth would need more enemies before they go down.Tiamat or Bahamut, as other Gods of lesser or demistatus is a challenge the SKs can handle. Don't forget Raistlin took Tiamat/Takhisis down, like the Archmage from FR (level 41 with a level 12 spell) took the Great Goddess of Magic down. So they were Epic but not nearly as powerful as the SKs. Solars and other Planar beings are on par with lesser and demi deities, and they are not that tough.
Rajaat and the Spirit of Athas = Overpowers
Champs = Greater gods
ABs = Demi-Intermediate
IMO ;) and I'm biased.
In favor of the reds though, I'd think they're also infinitely more wise than SKs, not merely looking at them as attack monsters, but as the creatures of legend that they are. Consider also that if Vlaakith were to invade Athas, she'd probably study up on her foes, and have Ephelemon send her Advanced Reds whose size would be colossal plus. Now there's a debate right there. Who'd win between SKs and colossal plus reds? I think it would be a close one...
Remember that those colossal fashion accessories (reds) won't have access to arcane or divine magic: they have not learned how to tap into life force to fuel arcane magic and gods can't grant divine spells through the Gray...
But not even one of them is a match for the weakest sorcerer king. An old red dragon would have to be very lucky to survive the SK’s ‘save or die’ spells and dispel the SK’s magical/psionic defenses. Going hand to hand is the red dragon's best chance, since in magic the average SK is going to be 6 to 10 levels above a great wyrm in caster level, not to mention the psionics. Yet the SK can easily keep him at bay with a number of spells, from walls of force to prismatic spheres.
So the mightiest of the (very CE) red dragons would have to work as a team to defeat a SK, which is very difficult for them, being hateful, distrusting beasts. If three of four ancients manage to work a strategy against a SK, and use an army of lesser red dragons to neutralize the SK’s armies of giants, templars, constructs, undead and summoned monsters, I think they could defeat the SK. As I have mentioned before I don’t think the SK are demigods, they are just old wizards/psions akin to old liches in abilities and resources.
Not Borys or Dregoth, though, those two are a whole different division.
In the event of an invasion I think the gythyanki and the dragons would be able to take or destroy one or two cities, but with little chance to kill the ruling SK, it would be easy for them to flee. Then Borys would rally the SKs behind him and annihilate the invading army with epic spells and psionics, personally destroying their champions. The SKs would also use the PCs to do some of the dirty work, of course.
Then they would rebuild the destroyed cities, and in a couple centuries nobody would remember much about the gith invasion.
i also think the reds, in all their intelligence wouldnt even go to athas in the first place. even if you win...i mean...what did you win? a giant dustball??? halflings? creatures that eat most other-planar races for lunch? no priest spells? the githyanki wouldslap their foreheads and say what were we thinking. and if they had any doubts they could cast a glance at their inbred backwood yokel Gith relatives and say yeah we're out of here.
bbbbbbbbut in terms of raw strategy, i think the course of action would be a lot of reddragons on athas for a long time, given their natural ability to survive and their tactical sense to not mass rush a city. 1 or 2 city states down sounds good. just another nasty encounter on the sheets, like the dragon of tyr, but less terrifying to a pc part ;)
The armies of the SK's would be relatively useless, their equipment is inferior to githyanki eq and at the first sight of a wing of red dragons i suspect most of them would flee for the hills. Leaving the SK and his templars to do all the fighting. The SK's defiling magic would destroy the land, probably finishing off the job the cleansing wars started, and leave the winner with a useless dust bowl.
This is presuming a full scale assault by the entire githyanki race - maybe to farm the psionic talents of athasians? or find out about life shaping?
I'm biased too. But i dont think the SK's are demi-gods or even divine. They are big fish in a small pond. Unfortunately (cause i cant stand the epic-ness of FR especially) there are a lot of things in the D&D universe that could crush em.
I think the Githyanki and the Red Dragons would win. Even against uber dregoth and Borys. There would be many thousands of githyanki, dozens, hundreds?, of dragons. The SK's would be worn down by githyanki strikes, assassins, massed assaults well before the red dragons come in to lay the smack down. The Githyanki would have their elite troops (though only up to about 17th level since the Lich Queen eats em).
The armies of the SK's would be relatively useless, their equipment is inferior to githyanki eq and at the first sight of a wing of red dragons i suspect most of them would flee for the hills. Leaving the SK and his templars to do all the fighting. The SK's defiling magic would destroy the land, probably finishing off the job the cleansing wars started, and leave the winner with a useless dust bowl.
While some of that is true.. (The Inferior Equipment and the panick of the average soldier). I wouldn't blindly assume the elite troops of the SK's to be weak or cowed by flying lizards. (For all we know, it's an attack of fire drakes in appearance.) Plus things like Banishment from Templars. Plus we have to take into account that this is a case of enemy of enemy is friend. The Good Guys helped out the bad guys to take down Rajaat.. (And that doesn't take into account that I've noticed some of the "Evil" Epics about on Athas aren't that Evil. The Mindlords, Hamanu and Oba don't really come off as all that evil). So that means we're not dealing with Githzerai+Red Dragons versus SK's and their slave armies. But Githzerai+REd Dragons versus the SKs, their armies, various giant tribes that get rallied or are nearby to be involved, various members under the Veil, Oronis for that matter... Then of course there's the Kreen Empire... ::shudder:: And Sadira, Sadira managed to be a pre-epic Mage who took down an SK without the benefit of anything all that powerful psionic wise, she's bound to have refined her art some in the passing time..
I'm biased too. But i dont think the SK's are demi-gods or even divine. They are big fish in a small pond. Unfortunately (cause i cant stand the epic-ness of FR especially) there are a lot of things in the D&D universe that could crush em.
Not Divine per say, but take a Great Wyrm Dragon. Slap on 20 levels of Psion and 20 Levels of Defiler. (And in some of the cases other stuff, I'd imagine there's fighter levels in Hamanu, for example). We're looking at HIGHEND guys here.
Who'd win? The Red Dragons or the Sorcerer Kings? State how and why, what powers/tactics would be brought to bear by each side.
Depends entirely on the size & scope of the Githyanki, really.
If we're talking a few thousand gith warriors backed up by a dozen or so dragons, the gith are toast, no question. The average Athasian trooper is probably as tough or tougher than a gith, and the dragons are no match for the sorcerer-kings, stat-wise. Give Athas the edge with higher-end troops (remember the level-cap still exists on the gith, even if bumped up).
If the gith are a truly impressive, world-conquering army, then we're talking hundreds of thousands of troops backed up by hundreds if not thousands of dragons, then Athas is either doomed, or will win a hollow victory. Even if the sheer number of troops don't bring down the SKs, everyone else would be dead from either gith swords or SKs burning them up for magic. The world would be a burned out ruin with a handful of SKs sitting upon the bodies of the fallen. The SKs simply become wasteland hermits, although very powerful ones...
Assuming, of course, they don't high-tail it through the portal(s) and find greener pastures.Unfortunately, such spark doesn't exist on Athas given there are no *true* deity there. And even if it did, don't you think Dregoth would be all over it in a second if he heard even a vague rumor?