The idea of a style guide is, I think, a good one. Consistency can be famously foolish but can also be useful, particularly when someone may not be otherwise familiar with the Greyhawk opus. It also doesn’t hurt to be mindful of what you like or do not like in more than a passing way. Gut-feelings only get you so far. However, a style guide is more an adjunct to gut-feelings, I think, and should never replace an indefinable sense of what is appropriately “grey.”
What follows is another attempt at a Greyhawk Style Guide.
(1) Story Drives Setting
Historically, the details of the World of Greyhawk have been told through adventures - stories. Pure sourcebooks, that describe the setting or some part thereof in page after page of detail and exposition, have not been the norm. When designing for Greyhawk, the story being told should always be foremost in mind, rather than a collection of details, that while interesting, are unconnected to events. Even if writing a sourcebook, the facts or details should all be story relevant. If a fact is not story relevant, it should probably be omitted or dwelt upon only briefly. The Living Greyhawk Gazateer is a notable exception in that it was predominantly just an exposition of facts. While applauded, the LGG has also been criticized for this quality as being “dry” or “a tome” or “not an easy read.”
(2) Focus on the PC Involvement
Because Greyhawk has been largely defined by adventures, which provided setting details in passing as necessary background, there has also been a focus on PCs as significant actors. Few important events should occur entirely offstage, where the PCs are uninvolved and will only be told what has happened. Ideally, the PCs should be able to become involved, the more directly, the better. If the PCs are not the exclusive focus, they should least have an opportunity to witness the events taking place, with a possibility, however remote, of being involved. Sometimes, as in the opening sequence of Vecna Lives or with the Greyhawk Wars wargame, the PCs participation may have to be vicarious through the players themselves. However it is done, the PCs should not just read about important events or be told that they happened. That is not classically Greyhawk.
(3) All Events In Context
Every described fact or event should have a place in the greater context of the setting. This has been described as the “wheels within wheels” effect. Purely random occurrences, unconnected with much of anything, are not the norm. RPGA adventures (Childsplay etc.) that were “dropped” into Greyhawk are the best examples of the problems with unconnected designs. Greyhawk’s facts have been set out variously in a variety of products, yet, there appear interconnections between these facts that give the setting a richness or depth. For example, the references to Iggwilv’s daughter in Mordenkainen’s Fantastic Adventure are more meaningful if one is familiar with the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. Not all Greyhawk material is so subtly referential or cross-referenced but enough is to mark the setting as one where everything has some degree of context with what has gone before or what will follow, or should/could have.
(4) Loose-ends
Critical to Greyhawk is the manner in which facts are presented. They are not usually presented in a closed-loop or in absolute terms unless essential to the story being told. Incidental or developmental facts have a noticeable degree of ambiguity. Some just trail off with but a mere mention. These are loose-ends. They invite the imagination and speculation as in no other setting. If Greyhawk has exhibited a sort of pseudo-scholarship and a huge capacity for fan created derivative works that no other setting has equaled, it is likely attributable to the fact that Greyhawk has so many loose-ends left hanging that spur the imagination and get people to wondering “what if” or “how might this relate to . . .” Writing purposefully may too easily omit loose-ends as a careful writer will look to leave a story with no loose-ends. That is not, however, Greyhawk.
(5) Balance and Neutrality
Next to the loose-ends, this is probably Greyhawk’s signature feature. Greyhawk is not a setting of white-hats and black-hats squaring off against each other at high noon in the middle of a dusty street. Neutrality plays a larger role in Greyhawk than in any other published setting and there are powerful forces neutrally aligned that seek to balance good and evil. Mordenkainen and the Circle of Eight are, of course, the most famous agents of Balance. If the From the Ashes era may be criticized legitimately, it is in leaving the Greyhawk Wars and the aftermath of the Greyhawk Wars too clearly divided into camps aligned with weal and woe. The Greyhawks Wars and their aftermath were too unsubtle in their aligning of forces. Large scale wars are unsubtle but Greyhawk is not a simulation; it is fantasy. Greyhawk should always see matters left in some degree of uncertainty or equipoise - gray. Any setting impacting event should see forces of neutrality involved, even if only peripherally.
(6) Nostalgia
Greyhawk is a nostalgic setting. That is not a bad thing. Not only has it been around longer than any other published setting but it has a rich real world history. This is important to remember when considering what might be sufficiently “grey.” Different from the comment on context, nostalgia is better understood as a “harkening back” or a “touching base” or “touchstone” effect. The most obvious harkening backs are the various “Returns” to classic adventures or products. Less obvious are the returning characters or figures native to the setting. Vecna has been returned to most memorably, if perhaps too overtly. It is very Greyhawk to indulge nostalgia by harkening back to prior events or occurrences or even whole adventures. However, care must be taken because too heavy a hand is not good and mere name dropping may appear to be nothing more. Neither is it essential to adopt a pure dungeon-crawl approach. That is nostalgic but a little goes a long way. Evoking Greyhawk’s storied past is tricky but the best Greyhawk products seem to do this. The Istivin story arc in Dungeon nicely attempted to play to nostalgia but then fumbled beyond the D-series touchstone by presently rather mediocre exposition of subsequent events.
(7) Canon
In the specific context of Greyhawk, “canon” is largely a fan created concept. Best understood, it is a desire for consistency with prior works such that, for example, County A is not a feudal kingdom in Product 1, a dictatorial theocracy in Product 2, and a secular, pure democracy in Product 3, where all products are set in the same time period. Unfortunately, canon is often stated or construed to require a slavish devotion to every fact, factoid, inferred surmise and developed minutia of the setting. Worse, canon is often stated to be a litmus test of all design, particularly any design that advances the timeline of events in the setting. The worst offenders are more concerned with canon than with a playable or enjoyable setting, some “fans” going so far as to admit to not having actually played in the setting regularly, if ever. To get Greyhawk right, “canon” is important in its broader sense but not in its most cramped reading. Canon is not a litmus test. The past does not define the future; it informs it and then only to suggest, not to require or shape design. Greyhawk must succeed first as a roleplaying game experience and secondarily, it may do so profitably by using canon to suggest, but not to require or prohibit, future developments, bearing in mind the stated desirability of a general consistency. Too great an adherence to canon is not Greyhawk because (if for no other reason) it would quantify too much that should develop as loose-ends (see Loose-ends above) and/or shades of uncertainty (see Balance above).
(8) A Sense of History
Related to nostalgia, context and canon is a more specific sense of the history or age within the setting. The history of the Flanaess is fantastic in every sense of the word. The Twin Cataclysms. The Migrations. The Ancient Flan. The Rise and Fall of Aerdi. The history of the Flanaess was momentous and still reverberates. Drawing on this history or adding to it is very Greyhawk. The Greyhawk Adventures, hardback, for example, is one of the most influential Greyhawk products for it introduced Places of Mystery that are now a signature feature of the setting and it did more than simply introduce them; it placed them within the history of the setting, developing the history of the setting in the process. Much of Greyhawk and that within Greyhawk has some kind of history. When designing, giving an item, NPC or even a plot a history is important. Jack-in-Box NPCs, items, plots etc. that just pop-up without any forgoing history should be the exception. This does not mean that nothing new can be created; to the contrary, as with Greyhawk Adventures, new is good, but new that feels old is better.
(9) Epic Adventures
It is not unusual to hear some people say that Greyhawk has seen enough turmoil and tumult, that there have been enough setting shaking events. This is nonsense. It is very Greyhawk to turn things upside down, or at least to threaten to. The Greyhawk Wars is the oft cited example of too much. In Vecna Lives, the signature Circle of Eight were killed, but ultimately returned. In Die Vecna Die, Vecna attempted to achieve ultimate godhead and the option is there that he succeeded. The settings creator, in his Gord novels, destroyed Oerth when Tharizdun was released. If not dealt a “sharp check,” giants, in league with the drow and a demon princess, have threatened to overwhelm Oerth. The giants “returned” to try to finish what they started. The Temple of Elemental Evil threatened to raise a horde to conquer all of the domain of Greyhawk and its surroundings if not stopped. Epic adventures, big adventures with potentially Oerth shaking consequences, are very Greyhawk. Greyhawk is not a setting where every adventure is small scale, timid or localized. Let’er rip.
(10) The Planes
The frequent occurrence of demi-planes in Greyhawk is nearly unique. The influence of extra-planar creatures, such as fiends, is nearly unique. The lack of direct godly involvement on Oerth is nearly unique. Greyhawks’ destruction by an imprisoned god-thing is nearly unique, at least among RPG settings. Greyhawk’s relationship with the planes is complex. It is often subtle or understated, such as gods refusing to send an avatar when a high level cleric is in trouble. It is often taken for granted, such as Iuz being born a cambion. It can be variant, such as the arrival of a spaceship through a dimensional wormhole. The influence of the planes is, however, a recurring theme. Like anything else, it can be overdone and done to death, but it is very Greyhawk all the same, uniquely so in the frequency and variety of its expression. Greyhawk is not a “low fantasy” setting.
(11) Nothing is Absolutely Forbidden
Greyhawk is very, very flexible. There is every variety of magic. There is technology. There is science-fiction. There is the Old West. There is literary allusion. There is comedy, even if low farce. There is a post-apocalyptic element. Greyhawk is not simply “medieval-fantasy” and those who want it so seek to exclude some of Greyhawk’s most unique charms. Nothing is absolutely forbidden in Greyhawk. In the main, Greyhawk is, of course, pseudo-medieval fantasy, but in the corners, it is so much more. Being quirky is very Greyhawk. Fitting for Greyhawk, there is a need to balance the more “unusual” elements of Greyhawk, however.
(12) Bring Your Friends
While not purely relevant to style, Greyhawk has a notable tradition of memorializing real people within the setting, using plays on words or variant spellings to good effect. Tzunk is a play on Rob Kuntz’s last name. The variations on Gary Gygax’ last name are innumerable. Further afield, Iquander, Erik Mona’s screen name and a pre-existing Greyhawk character in the Gord novels, has become something of an “editorial character” as he moves within the setting from rural Nellix to the City of Greyhawk and begins reordering the Great Library to include the works of “Estarius Rose” - Greyhawk author Rose Estes. Greyhawk fan Samantha Quest becomes the Greyhawk dragon Hautna Masq. Greyhawk fan “Keldreth” becomes an NPC of the same name. The Greyhawk fan who first attempted a Greyhawk style guide, Nitescreed, becomes the Aerdi bard Nightsong. The list goes on. Giving a nod to someone within the setting is very Greyhawk and not a few respellings have produced some descent fantasy names.
These 12 points, then, are my attempt to define a Greyhawk style guide. They are not exhaustive. I make no claim that they should be authoritative or even correct. They seem to me, however, to be a good “pointing in the right direction.” If others contribute, we might be able to arrive at something more widely agreeable.
Respectfully submitted.
Glenn Vincent Dammerung (aka GVD)
I think its particularly important to stay true to the gritty, high fantasy of Greyhawk, and not turn it into fantasypunk
If not dealt a “sharp check,” giants, in league with the drow and a demon princess, have threatened to overwhelm Oerth.
Which resulted in no large-scale geopolitical realigments.
The giants “returned” to try to finish what they started.
Which resulted in no large-scale geopolitical realigments.
The Temple of Elemental Evil threatened to raise a horde to conquer all of the domain of Greyhawk and its surroundings if not stopped.
Which resulted in no large-scale geopolitical realigments.
Epic adventures, big adventures with potentially Oerth shaking consequences, are very Greyhawk. Greyhawk is not a setting where every adventure is small scale, timid or localized. Let’er rip.
The above examples put the fate of the world IN THE HANDS OF THE PCS. There is no comparision to out-of-touch designers handing down shake-ups from "on-high", as was the case in with the Wars.
The settings creator, in his Gord novels, destroyed Oerth when Tharizdun was released.
You missed the point of this entirely. It was a spiteful parting shot at the miscreants that forced him out of his own company and them promptly began mismanaging "his" world. This is a statement against designer-driven arbitrary re-writes like the Wars, not an argument for them. Gary was opining that Oerth was better off destroyed than made the victim of his successors' poor designs.
Just pointing out that there is a BIG difference between the POTENTIAL setup for a big crisis that's presented in a module and isn't expected to be "canonized" in future releases and a COMPLETED big crisis that is immediately canonized and that the players and GMs have no say in. The former is Greyhawk, the latter is anti-Greyhawk.
Let's set our apples and oranges in SEPERATE piles, please.
I wouldn't be too keen on my campaign anymore if people I hated took it away from me and then guided it in directions I strongly-disapproved of, either.
Although if you're up for a laugh, just get Gary started on the subject of "From the Asses" (his term) one of these days.
Of interest is that Gygax has all but abandoned Greyhawk in his own games.
Not at all. He's been been running a weekly Greyhawk game for some some time now. He has pretty much abandoned discussing "Greyhawk" outside of that though.
Scott
- It may be only a rumour, but I get that the famous TRoB d20 adventures *Lost City of Gaxmoor* (one of my current playing grounds) and *The Hermit* were written for Greyhawk. Apparently, EGG and his sons had intentions to contribute to the Greyhawk 98 project, but were rejected by WotC.
;) Of course, who would have bought Monte Cooks epical works, if there were GYGAX materials around? :D
AFAIK, Mr Gygax and his family are still quite active Hawkers, it's a shame that they weren't allowed to develop it more.
- It may be only a rumour, but I get that the famous TRoB d20 adventures *Lost City of Gaxmoor* (one of my current playing grounds) and *The Hermit* were written for Greyhawk. Apparently, EGG and his sons had intentions to contribute to the Greyhawk 98 project, but were rejected by WotC.
;) Of course, who would have bought Monte Cooks epical works, if there were GYGAX materials around? :D
I worked on Gaxmoor with Ernie Gygax, and I can tell you for sure it was originally set in Greyhawk.
The Hermit is pure LE (Lejendary Earth) though.
Scott
The Gaxmoor module has brought a lot of fun to my Erde-gaming group(which, really, would not exist if it wasn't for that adventure...).
Too bad that the *TRoB* line has been dropped/frozen.
I mean, although I was really *really* upset about the *Codex*, I have come too like the setting bit by bit... (To ckeck HOW upset I was, look for my older review of the Erde setting on these boards...)
I thought that I had heard that *The Hermit* was set for the Vorelberg region, which is a part of Erde... And, IIRC, *Gaxmoor* was supposed the stand somewhere in Keoland... Right?
Which resulted in no large-scale geopolitical realigments. . . .
Which resulted in no large-scale geopolitical realigments. . . .
Which resulted in no large-scale geopolitical realigments. . . .
Just pointing out that there is a BIG difference between the POTENTIAL setup for a big crisis that's presented in a module and isn't expected to be "canonized" in future releases and a COMPLETED big crisis that is immediately canonized and that the players and GMs have no say in. The former is Greyhawk, the latter is anti-Greyhawk.
Let's set our apples and oranges in SEPERATE piles, please.
Hi Yamo,
Thank you for your response.
You'll note I wrote, "It is very Greyhawk to turn things upside down, or at least to threaten to." I placed realized big events and potential big events in the same category to (1) save bullit points, (2) avoid tearing open the scab you are picking at ;) and (3) to attempt to correlate and harmonize one of the larger gulfs in Greyhawk's storied history.
Your point that the Greyhawk Wars were forced upon Greyhawk players and DMs as canon (even if they could "participate" after a fashion by using the Greyhawk Wars wargame) is correct, as is the notation that the other examples were not similarly forced upon consumers. I don't think this undermines the basic point I was trying to make however, that being that -"Epic adventures, big adventures with potentially Oerth shaking consequences, are very Greyhawk. Greyhawk is not a setting where every adventure is small scale, timid or localized."
Certainly, the Greyhawk Wars is an extreme example but it remains at one end of a spectrum of seizmic change, I think. The spectrum is there, I think, whatever we may individually think of any point on that spectrum. I was not advocating for or against "epic" events but was only noting that they have occurred, to include the Greyhawk Wars.
The wisdom of the Greyhawk Wars is another topic. My only point was - they happened. And they can be accounted for, being seen, even if in the extreme, as a point on a spectrum that fully imagines the potential for Oerth shaking events.
Recognizing that the Wars were controversial, I want to move past that issue, acknowledge what is now canon, and look to see if a pattern cannot be deduced. I don't advocate another Greyhawk Wars type event, necessarily, but if one were to occur it would not now be unprescedented or un-Greyhawk, because the Greyhawk Wars are canon (whether we individually like them or not).
Should such a "cramdown" event of such size be contemplated in the future (and Living Greyhawk seems willing to dare the heights, at least regionally, and may yet have an effect on future Greyhawk developments, given its widespread popularity) I think the wisdom of such a move would be determined by how it was done. There are lessons to be learned from the Greyhawk Wars that could be usefully applied but only if we engage that process and don't just say "Don't do that!" Having been done once, it is neither more or less likely that something similar might not occur in the future. Seeing the Greyhawk Wars in the context of Greyhawk canon, even as an extreme incident, is, I think valuable.
What did you think of the rest of it?
GVD
I worked on Gaxmoor with Ernie Gygax, and I can tell you for sure it was originally set in Greyhawk.
The Hermit is pure LE (Lejendary Earth) though.
Scott
Scott,
I can't remember if it was Grodog, you, Gene, or Falconer who had the list of Greyhawk materials, which included some of Gary's and Rob's post 3e work and where they were putatively set in Greyhawk. Did a quick Google and couldn't find it. Do you know what I'm talking about?
R.A.
If you look at the real world - such events were rare (indeed absent) in medieval times. Europe-wide wars didn't really begin to kick in until the various wars of succession from the 16th century onwards. Then again, Europe didn't have magic or a resident demi-god. Still, if you want to retain some of the verisimilitude that characterises GH more than other D&D settings, it would be best to avoid another Flanaess wide event of this kind.
Another factor is consistancy with the setting. The last major period of conflict in the Flanaess was in the middle of the 400's CY, when the Great Kingdom was awash with the bloodshed of the Turmoil Between the Crowns, while Imperial Keoland was going though its last deaththroes. Even then, there was relative peace in the central Flanaess between Veluna to Nyrond.
Future GH development shouldn't be looking for the new big event to wow the masses (and annoy the fans). It should be done logically, but looking at what the interests of the various great powers are, how they might go about achieving them and what might happen if and when two sets of interests come into conflict.
For example: Ahlissa's interests lie in recovering its economic and military strength after centuries of misrule and war at hands of the Naelax. Thus, it should avoid open conflicts, unless they are necessary. It should engage in building up its trade routes - since the ruling power bloc is sustained by merchantile wealth. This means opening trade ties with neighbours and building up trade routes on land and sea (as well as the fleets to protect them). Given the bent of its rulers, this resurgence of trade is not entirely benign, of course. Consider the kind of influence that the Hanseatic League or the Republic of Venice (both powerful trading powers) wielded in medieval Europe, back it up with a staggering population of over 3 million souls and resurgent imperial ambitions, and you've got an idea where Ahlissa might go in the future.
Obviously, an eventual war with the North Kingdom is inevitable - but it is in Ahlissa's interest to delay that war until it has the military and economic might to defeat the northerners and reunite the Great Kingdom.
You can apply the same kind of logic to each of the great powers of the Flanaess. Furyony is facing a crisis of succession. Nyrond needs to regain its strength and fend off the growing powers of the Pale to the north and Ahlissa to the south. This kind of logical development is just what GH needs, not a series of annual Oerth shaking spectaculars.
All IMO of course...
P.
So if it comes to a comparison, additional wars are more than likely in the Flanaess in the next 50-100 years.
Further, it is obvious that the Flanaess is not likely to undergo a period similar to the major succession wars in Europe for the simple fact that the various ruling houses are not intermarried or competing as was happening in Europe. That might, and likely should, happen repeatedly within the major regions, the Sheldomar, Old Ferrond, Old Aerdy East, and Old Aerdy West, but not between regions. Instead, the wars between regions will be the typical expansion into various border areas critical for one reason or other. And indeed, the nearly 1000 years from the Twin Cataclysms to the current time very neaty fits with the nearly 1000 years from the fall of Rome to the start of major European conflicts from the 15th century on.
And what would be the alternative to such conflicts? Endless recyclings of giant invasions/orc uprisings/ether assaults? No, rather I think a series of nice mundane wars that achieved the kind of long term border changes in European history of the time mentioned would be a tad more attractive. Particularly as such recyclings would inolve precisely the kind of Oerth-shattering events looked on with disdain.
So logical development, both from a historical perspective and a limited change perspective, would in fact be an age of war for the Flanaess. And not little 3-4 year wars, but 10, 20, even 50 or 100 year wars! Sure there would be down times for rebuilding and recovery between, or even during, these extended wars. But war it would be for many years. And such wars, if not immediately resolved, but instead left to players and DMs to explore for several real world years, would lead to a greater feeling of inclusiveness by fans in the ongoing changes to the political status of the setting.
War! What is it good for?
Saving the setting!
:D
I thought that I had heard that *The Hermit* was set for the Vorelberg region, which is a part of Erde... And, IIRC, *Gaxmoor* was supposed the stand somewhere in Keoland... Right?
The Hermit was written for LE, but given a location in Erde. Gaxmoor was set on the western fringe of Veluna. In my home campaign, I set it in Sunndi, and changed the patron from Farlanghn to Pholtus. Then made Zayene in the Great KIngdom responsible for bringing Gaxmoor back and eventually tied it into Rob's Maze of Zayene series.
Scott
I planned to locate it in Verbobonc/Veluna at first,too, but then, with my older campaign dealing with the Hateful Wars, I didn't want to *overstuff* that region.
Actually, as I purchased CoE and Gaxmoor together, I had the idea of giving that setting a try...
I use an old introductory adventure from FR (Korynn Isles) and relocated it near Tagea, then lead them to Gaxmoor with the Gygax - introductory adventure (assumed that they managed to escape from the isle). (Currently running the Korynn adventure
we advance so slowly...) After that, I'd like them to do some kind of *forest* adventure *with Drow*... (If we ever get so far...)
Could you recommend me a good TRoB board? - Because the official TLG boards are dead as a bone...
Like many people, I’ve read “The Grey in the Hawk” by Nitescreed, ne NightScreed. Whatever else you want to say about it or its author, The Grey in the Hawk is an attempt at a style document for Greyhawk. I have seen no other that does as well. That is not to say that the Grey in the Hawk is perfect. It is not. As time passes, I think the identity of the setting shifts with further publication of material that may or may not adhere to any particular style.
Have to disagree.
Greyhawk is the Folio & Imagination. Everything else is just variations on a theme.
Gygax and company created a masterpiece, but one that allows every DM to develop and call their own. Trying to nail down a style for the campaign, to say to all who come later to the table than we have, "that's not what the Greyhawk campaign is about", just does not work.
H.P. Lovecraft knew that to tell a truly terrifying story you called upon the readers imagination to scare themselves. You did not describe the monsters, you pulled them from the depths of the reader's own fears.
Gygax has done the same with Greyhawk. This campaign is as infinite as the human imagination, as frightening as a nightmare, as real as each DM wants it to be.
But we can all talk about a shared Greyhawk because of Gygax's original masterpiece and say this is where I began and this is the way I took. It is not a question of style but of choice.
Have to disagree.
Greyhawk is the Folio & Imagination. Everything else is just variations on a theme.
Gygax and company created a masterpiece, but one that allows every DM to develop and call their own.
Every DM, that is, except Cook, Sargent, Moore, Mona, Holian, Reynolds and Weining, right? Oh, and anyone who contributes to Canonfire as well?
I don't recall seeing statements in any of their work that says I must use everything they wrote.
Come to think of it, I didn't see that in Gygax, Lakofka or Kuntz's work either...
Every DM, that is, except Cook, Sargent, Moore, Mona, Holian, Reynolds and Weining, right? Oh, and anyone who contributes to Canonfire as well?
I don't recall seeing statements in any of their work that says I must use everything they wrote.
Come to think of it, I didn't see that in Gygax, Lakofka or Kuntz's work either...
What?
Is there some meaning to this or is it just rambling?
When Greyhawk first came out Gygax wrote that the campaign was meant for individual DMs to detail. So, everything that comes later is simply a variation on the original campaign. Some from TSR, some from WOTC, many more fan-based and online, all variations.
Is there a neighbor's dog saying that something must be used in a Greyhawk campaign? Don't listen to it. Their are some styles of Greyhawk that are more popular but each DM has the ability to make the setting their own, personal and unique.
What?
Is there some meaning to this or is it just rambling?
He must be hung up on the words "Gygax and Company" which I took to mean the people at TSR and Gary's group when the folio came out, rather than all of the authors contributing to Greyhawk over the past 25 - 30 years.
I have to say that I would not call the folio a masterpiece, but more like a patchwork quilt in which Gygax took a number of different campaign settings, stiched in some additional details and presented to the gaming community a setting that, as you stated, each DM could make his own.
That quilt had a number of holes in it, with which each DM has had the choice of how to fill those holes to create a unique version of Greyhawk.
As for Dammerung's original post, two comments. I would rather replace the nostalgia title with plain old history, in that I don't see the "Return to ______ " modules as a real basis for defining Greyhawks style. Yes, the Maure Castle thing was cool, but the most of these types of modules just seemed a little gimmicky to me. More for selling material than for really defining a sense of style. IMHO
Second, there seems to be a "Canon Backlash" in recent posts throughout this messageboard and it should be defined in this (or any other intro or) style guide to instruct those new to the world of Greyhawk that you really can have it your way. It's about time.
Scott,
I can't remember if it was Grodog, you, Gene, or Falconer who had the list of Greyhawk materials, which included some of Gary's and Rob's post 3e work and where they were putatively set in Greyhawk. Did a quick Google and couldn't find it. Do you know what I'm talking about?
R.A.
Well, I'm not Scott, but this is it:
http://p085.ezboard.com/fpiedpiperpublishingfrm4.showMessage?topicID=57.topic
Intentionally unparsed. Please Copy/Paste.
Have to disagree.
Greyhawk is the Folio & Imagination. Everything else is just variations on a theme.
Posh, piffle, and nonsense.
"Just" variations on a theme?
No imagination required?
No creativity involved either I suppose.
Those blithely dismissed "variations on a theme" are an essential expression of the creative potential of the setting.
They are also an equally essential element of the financial potential of the setting.
If all people are satisfied to do is look at the folio and cross reference every word of it with, then indeed nothing else is needed. But for those who would like to see more of the setting as a product, then expansions are needed. And again, you could be satisfied with just making a bigger index, but that is indeed nothing more than a "variation on a theme", recollating existing materials without actually doing anything with them. It requires more, a drive to expand on that index, a drive to explain the connections revealed, a drive to use the connections uncovered. And if people want to see a line of Greyhawk products then it does indeed require creative imagination to write and develop those new products, not as mere "variations on a theme", but as new and different products derived from a common base.
While I might disagree with some elements of GVDs statement, particularly any reference to NiteScreed's rather sorry exercise in FR-bashing and self-contradictory standards known as "Grey in the Hawk", what I do agree with is the contributions to the setting made since the folio. They are part of the style of Greyhawk. And to dismiss them as mere "variations on a theme" while paying any attention to any discussion predicated on those "variations", such as is the intent of any GH discussion board, is absurd.
The thing with the Greyhawk Wars compared to European wars is the short duration of the Greyhawk Wars. Over and done in little more than 3 years? Compared to European wars prior to the major succession wars that is still relatively short.
So logical development, both from a historical perspective and a limited change perspective, would in fact be an age of war for the Flanaess. And not little 3-4 year wars, but 10, 20, even 50 or 100 year wars! Sure there would be down times for rebuilding and recovery between, or even during, these extended wars. But war it would be for many years. And such wars, if not immediately resolved, but instead left to players and DMs to explore for several real world years, would lead to a greater feeling of inclusiveness by fans in the ongoing changes to the political status of the setting.
War! What is it good for?
Saving the setting!
:D
In my experience, war in a fantasy setting with D&D magic is very brief. A few high-level spellcasters obliterate everything that moves on the battlefield, removing the thousands of footmen and cavalry that were so vital in real-world medieval warfare, and the "war" is reduced to a small handful of powerful champions (PCs and NPCs of high level) duking it out to determine which side wins. The conclusion I have drawn regarding war and the D&D magic system is that our traditional ideas about medieval warfare simply wouldn't work in such a setting. Why field thousands of your people so they can be wiped out by a few area of effect spells? If I were King Belvor or Iuz the Old, I wouldn't waste the gold. I'd send a small band of the highest-level adventurers at my disposal to kill the leaders of the enemy faction (which shouldn't take more than a few scrying spells, a few teleports, and a few opened cans of whoop-ass - probably less than a minute of real time), and then claim the object of my desire (be it land, loot, or ancient artifacts). Given these realities, geopolitical borders would be so ephemeral that cartographers probably wouldn't even bother showing borders (since they would probably change on a daily, if not hourly, basis).
Unfortunately, the D&D magic system somewhat sucks the gritty realism out of any D&D campaign setting. What good is assassinating a head of state when the local high-level cleric is just gonna res him? Why send an army on the march across leagues of terrain when the court wizard can simply set up a teleportation circle and launch a surprise attack right in the enemy's fortress? Why use armies at all when high-level PCs and NPCs can wade through them like a scythe cutting down wheat?
Ordinary people!
Which puts our large scale military campaigns right back to the same extended duration as the real world.
Rather it would be the lesser effects of magic on the battlefield that would matter. Even low level cures will mean a significant drop in the death rate of the wounded. That means more battles as both sides preserve their population, extending wars even further. Granted various enhancements will increase the lethality of the battles themselves, but most wars in the real world ended due to non-combat deaths among soliders and civilians alike. That is what magic will reduce, and that is what will make wars longer and more vicious. The high level character types will go off on their missions, but they will wind up neutralizing each other in the long run. (Your guys steal my relic, my guys steal it back, your guys assassinate my high priest and steal his soul so I can't raise him, my guys assassinate your court wizard and steal his soul so you can't raise him, and on and on.)
As for high level fighters trashing entire companies, don't discount the critical hit effect. 200 ordinary archers will score 10 hits every round on him, doing an average of 45 damage. If he starts with a nice hefty 200 hit points, he gets 5 rounds of brutal slaughter before dying his dying porcupine impersonation. At best, with great cleave, enlarge, a reach weapon, and 3 attacks a round, he should get perhaps 150-200 people all by himself if my infantry is silly enough to just charge him and die like dogs. If he has to go hunting them he'll get around 100 if he never gets an auto-miss. Not a very good trade overall, especially since his being on the battlefield means he isn't protecting your throne room when my high level fighter gets teleported in to take out your king and steal his soul so you can't raise him. :P
Magic is only utterly destabilizing if only one side side has it or prepares for it. When both do, it tends to neutralize itself pretty quickly.
The thing is, both sides will have those high level character types available. And if they both send them off on such commando missions, or keep them back to protect against them, that leaves the armies composed of . . .
Ordinary people!
But an army is irrelevant and obsolete. The commandos determine the outcome of any conflict in a manner of rounds. Who would even be alive to command the armies after the commando missions?
Which puts our large scale military campaigns right back to the same extended duration as the real world.
Rather it would be the lesser effects of magic on the battlefield that would matter. Even low level cures will mean a significant drop in the death rate of the wounded. That means more battles as both sides preserve their population, extending wars even further. Granted various enhancements will increase the lethality of the battles themselves, but most wars in the real world ended due to non-combat deaths among soliders and civilians alike. That is what magic will reduce, and that is what will make wars longer and more vicious. The high level character types will go off on their missions, but they will wind up neutralizing each other in the long run. (Your guys steal my relic, my guys steal it back, your guys assassinate my high priest and steal his soul so I can't raise him, my guys assassinate your court wizard and steal his soul so you can't raise him, and on and on.)
Yes, a certain amount of neutralization would occur if both sides were evenly matched, but someone is going to win eventually (and in much shorter time than even an hour, I contend). What are the odds of both sides killing each other off simultaneously? It never happens in a D&D game, thanks to the rounds-and-initiative system. Whoever is alive after several rounds of high-level combat wins the war.
As for high level fighters trashing entire companies, don't discount the critical hit effect. 200 ordinary archers will score 10 hits every round on him, doing an average of 45 damage. If he starts with a nice hefty 200 hit points, he gets 5 rounds of brutal slaughter before dying his dying porcupine impersonation. At best, with great cleave, enlarge, a reach weapon, and 3 attacks a round, he should get perhaps 150-200 people all by himself if my infantry is silly enough to just charge him and die like dogs. If he has to go hunting them he'll get around 100 if he never gets an auto-miss. Not a very good trade overall, especially since his being on the battlefield means he isn't protecting your throne room when my high level fighter gets teleported in to take out your king and steal his soul so you can't raise him. :P .
True, but what if his high-level wizard buddy hasted him, put protection from arrows and stoneskin on him, and he's wearing heavy fortification full plate? What good are the feeble arrows and swords of common men against such a juggernaut?
Magic is only utterly destabilizing if only one side side has it or prepares for it. When both do, it tends to neutralize itself pretty quickly.
Only if both sides are evenly matched, which is rather unlikely.
If all people are satisfied to do is look at the folio and cross reference every word of it with, then indeed nothing else is needed. But for those who would like to see more of the setting as a product, then expansions are needed. And again, you could be satisfied with just making a bigger index, but that is indeed nothing more than a "variation on a theme", recollating existing materials without actually doing anything with them. It requires more, a drive to expand on that index, a drive to explain the connections revealed, a drive to use the connections uncovered.
I don't mean to jump into any kind of private feud, if that's what's going on. I just wanted to say that I, for one, appreciate Jason's index and I'm glad that he's taken the time to assemble it. I also think that, with all the material that's been released for Greyhawk in the last 30 years, I wouldn't mind a little bit of "recollating." In fact, what I'd love is a Greyhawk Encyclopedia, somewhere to look up all the minutiae that's been developed over time, fun little details that weren't important enough to make it into the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.
I can appreciate the desire to see more done with the setting. If all of the details are left to individual DMs, then we're left with little more than a collection of homebrew campaigns that happen to use many of the same names. I just didn't see the need to denigrate the process of compiling an index of what has been released up until now.
Sure there would be down times for rebuilding and recovery between, or even during, these extended wars. But war it would be for many years. And such wars, if not immediately resolved, but instead left to players and DMs to explore for several real world years, would lead to a greater feeling of inclusiveness by fans in the ongoing changes to the political status of the setting.
War! What is it good for?
Saving the setting!
:D
I agree with this almost entirely.
We should not think in terms of modern warfare when considering war in the Flanaess. Medieval warfare was not total war, waged year round and round the clock. And it did not disrupt societies the way modern warfare does.
Modern man is dependent on electrical power and everything that needs electrical power such that, when the juice is cut off, his society is disrupted. Medieval man had no equivalent dependency.
Modern man is dependent on reliable supply from greatly distant supply points, the two being connected by roads, rails and airports, all of which can be destroyed on a nationwide basis in around 24 hours with modern weaponry. Medieval man was not so dependent and medieval weapons had no equivalent reach or capacity.
The point is that medieval war could leave great sections of the countryside and society unaffected. Life would go on in a medieval nation at war in a way completely unlike a modern nation at war, where the war occurs on the nation's own soil.
War in the Flanaess does not mean that every campaign will have to deal with military matters or even the actuality of, or consequences of, the war. Only if the war is at your door, you will have to deal.
Magic does not change this unless you have your cities lit by light-spell lampposts, where the constable eschews a sword for a wand of magic missles, where travel over 10 miles is done by magic carpet - in others words where magic has become a common, arcane technology. You could do this in your campaign but there is no prescedent for it in Greyhawk canon. Mass deployment of magically augmented troops is unheard of outside fiends, which have been banished.
High-level magical "commandos" dominating the conflicts is also not canon. Canon Greyhawk sees wars fought by soldiers armed in a pseudo-medieval style and slugging it out in cavalry charges and infantry stands. Surely, high-level magical commandos exist, but as Samwise points out in a follow-up post, they are present on both sides and cancel each other out, at least to the point of not seeing such characters obviate the need for major conventional engagements.
Having PCs able to be involved and play an important role in any conflicts is very important. This summer Wotc will release a product called "Battlefield" or something like that which will attempt to fascilitate this type of roleplaying. There are already d20 products that do the same. Either way, PCs can play a role if they choose. They always have had the ability.
A perpetually peaceful Flanaess makes little sense and is quite abit duller. Pre-Wars Greyhawk was obviously building toward a major war to read the old Sorcerors Scrolls. The Greyhawk Wars paid off on the buildup. In the aftermath, there will be highly localized score-settling wars and some of these may grow to inflame regions (in a medieval sense, that is).
Will that "save the setting?" I'm not so sure. But it won't hurt and will likely help.
1. As I noted, a major criticism of the Greyhawk Wars and FtA voiced here was their "off-camera" nature. Making an era of warfare part of continuing products would cure that.
2. A comment to the effect of "as usual, the major figures of each side neutralized each other" can be found in a description of a major battle in Artifact of Evil by Gary Gygax. So the concept is part of the "core setting" as it were.
Posh, piffle, and nonsense.
"Just" variations on a theme? . . . Those blithely dismissed "variations on a theme" are an essential expression of the creative potential of the setting.
They are also an equally essential element of the financial potential of the setting.
This is nothing short of a brilliantly cogent statement of the truth of the matter. I cannot add to it.
While I might disagree with some elements of GVDs statement, particularly any reference to NiteScreed's rather sorry exercise in FR-bashing and self-contradictory standards known as "Grey in the Hawk", what I do agree with is the contributions to the setting made since the folio. They are part of the style of Greyhawk. And to dismiss them as mere "variations on a theme" while paying any attention to any discussion predicated on those "variations", such as is the intent of any GH discussion board, is absurd.
Please, disagree! :D Please do not conflate what I have attempted with NiteScreed's prior work.
His work is simply a necessary starting point; he made a first, memorable attempt at a style guide. At the time it was written, which was some years ago, his Grey in the Hawk may have had more or less relevance but that is now a moot point however you view or viewed the matter, IMO. Greyhawk has evolved beyond the Grey in the Hawk. I do not believe the prior work can be seen today as having much relevance to Greyhawk in 2005. Still, I give it due credit for being there first, even as I try to move beyond it. My list of points is substantially different than that in NiteScreed's prior work. I think the thrust is different too, in that the prior attempt tried too hard, IMO, to play off the Forgotten Realms. I do not see this as necessary to any understanding of Greyhawk. Greyhawk is sufficient and unique unto itself. Posh, piffle, and nonsense.
"Just" variations on a theme?
No imagination required?
No creativity involved either I suppose.
Those blithely dismissed "variations on a theme" are an essential expression of the creative potential of the setting.
They are also an equally essential element of the financial potential of the setting.
If all people are satisfied to do is look at the folio and cross reference every word of it with, then indeed nothing else is needed. But for those who would like to see more of the setting as a product, then expansions are needed. And again, you could be satisfied with just making a bigger index, but that is indeed nothing more than a "variation on a theme", recollating existing materials without actually doing anything with them. It requires more, a drive to expand on that index, a drive to explain the connections revealed, a drive to use the connections uncovered. And if people want to see a line of Greyhawk products then it does indeed require creative imagination to write and develop those new products, not as mere "variations on a theme", but as new and different products derived from a common base.
While I might disagree with some elements of GVDs statement, particularly any reference to NiteScreed's rather sorry exercise in FR-bashing and self-contradictory standards known as "Grey in the Hawk", what I do agree with is the contributions to the setting made since the folio. They are part of the style of Greyhawk. And to dismiss them as mere "variations on a theme" while paying any attention to any discussion predicated on those "variations", such as is the intent of any GH discussion board, is absurd.
As you say "new and different products derived from a common base" and I say "variations on a theme". There is no difference.
Some of the variations stand out in regard to quality, good and bad. But the 'common base' is the original setting.
Many published Greyhawk products simply had the banner 'Greyhawk' stamped on them without possessing any actual content. There is a growing amount of excellent fan material made public online and who knows how much exists from original campaigns that have never been made public.
The original work is done. Regardless of quality all new material is a variation derived from a common source.
I would love to see new Greyhawk material made available, but it will be what it is, Sargent's Greyhawk, Living Greyhawk's Greyhawk, etc... all based on the material that came out in a small folio 25 years or so ago, or the slightly expanded boxed set from '83.
That is the common source handed to DMs as their own many, many years ago. And to this day it is where DMs can step back and take the campaign anywhere they want.
As for the 'Index' it's just a reference work, it better not be a variation or it fails as a research tool. What I am working on know is taking the references and creating a source materal Encyclopedia. This will have all the actual text references themselves and notations on map and illustration refrences to make it easier to find all the maps. It won't have my own campaign variations of Greyhawk but will have all the sources for all the published Greyhawk material. This way each researcher can find all the available information in one place (For example everything that has been written about Bigby or Furyondy) and make their own interpretations. Big, big project, just started, but anyone who wants to lend a hand can email me.
He must be hung up on the words "Gygax and Company" which I took to mean the people at TSR and Gary's group when the folio came out, rather than all of the authors contributing to Greyhawk over the past 25 - 30 years.
I have to say that I would not call the folio a masterpiece, but more like a patchwork quilt in which Gygax took a number of different campaign settings, stiched in some additional details and presented to the gaming community a setting that, as you stated, each DM could make his own.
That quilt had a number of holes in it, with which each DM has had the choice of how to fill those holes to create a unique version of Greyhawk.
As for Dammerung's original post, two comments. I would rather replace the nostalgia title with plain old history, in that I don't see the "Return to ______ " modules as a real basis for defining Greyhawks style. Yes, the Maure Castle thing was cool, but the most of these types of modules just seemed a little gimmicky to me. More for selling material than for really defining a sense of style. IMHO
Second, there seems to be a "Canon Backlash" in recent posts throughout this messageboard and it should be defined in this (or any other intro or) style guide to instruct those new to the world of Greyhawk that you really can have it your way. It's about time.
Greyhawk, the Unfinished Quilt. I can see that. Still a masterpiece to me. Fantasy versions of European countries, elements of many fantasy stories, woven together but not tightly. I find the campaign incredibly inspiring as it was orignally presented. Nothing overwhelming, but so full of history, legend and adventure. A perfect campaign to run a game in or write a story about.
As you say "new and different products derived from a common base" and I say "variations on a theme". There is no difference.
Some of the variations stand out in regard to quality, good and bad. But the 'common base' is the original setting.
Many published Greyhawk products simply had the banner 'Greyhawk' stamped on them without possessing any actual content. There is a growing amount of excellent fan material made public online and who knows how much exists from original campaigns that have never been made public.
The original work is done. Regardless of quality all new material is a variation derived from a common source.
I would love to see new Greyhawk material made available, but it will be what it is, Sargent's Greyhawk, Living Greyhawk's Greyhawk, etc... all based on the material that came out in a small folio 25 years or so ago, or the slightly expanded boxed set from '83.
That is the common source handed to DMs as their own many, many years ago. And to this day it is where DMs can step back and take the campaign anywhere they want.
As for the 'Index' it's just a reference work, it better not be a variation or it fails as a research tool. What I am working on know is taking the references and creating a source materal Encyclopedia. This will have all the actual text references themselves and notations on map and illustration refrences to make it easier to find all the maps. It won't have my own campaign variations of Greyhawk but will have all the sources for all the published Greyhawk material. This way each researcher can find all the available information in one place (For example everything that has been written about Bigby or Furyondy) and make their own interpretations. Big, big project, just started, but anyone who wants to lend a hand can email me.
There is a very distinct difference between using a common base and just having "variations on a theme". All fantasy derives from a common base. In that case, Greyhawk is just another "variation on a theme", with nothing particularly unique or relevant.
The original work is indeed done. But that doesn't mean it is complete. There is much that can be done with that work that is unique and creative. And just as original, despite using a few reference words from a previous work.
As for an index, it is indeed just a variation. It adds nothing new to the setting, it merely presents previous material in a different format. That is work that is not creative, merely accumulative. It isn't building a better mousetrap, it is just repackaging an old one. I know. I did a timeline that was nothing more than presenting old material in a new way. Without adding any commentary, that is all it would remain. But by adding new that new material, be it from my campaign or newly developed, I added and expanded to the base material, giving DMs even more to do with what they already had.
I can understand if you can't create any new material yourself, but if you want to try and be so dismissive of the creative efforts of others you should at least be able to create something yourself. Endlessly rewriting and rehashing already extant material is not creative. FtA and the LGG, while based on the original folio, both took it in new and useful directions, and is creative. They helped develop a flavor for the setting.
Still, to undertake such products and keep that flavor consistent, a research staff is needed to put together an index of references. It is just that they are willing to go further and actually create instead of sit and wait. They are the one who will drive and define the setting for the future.
There is a very distinct difference between using a common base and just having "variations on a theme". All fantasy derives from a common base. In that case, Greyhawk is just another "variation on a theme", with nothing particularly unique or relevant.
The original work is indeed done. But that doesn't mean it is complete. There is much that can be done with that work that is unique and creative. And just as original, despite using a few reference words from a previous work.
As for an index, it is indeed just a variation. It adds nothing new to the setting, it merely presents previous material in a different format. That is work that is not creative, merely accumulative. It isn't building a better mousetrap, it is just repackaging an old one. I know. I did a timeline that was nothing more than presenting old material in a new way. Without adding any commentary, that is all it would remain. But by adding new that new material, be it from my campaign or newly developed, I added and expanded to the base material, giving DMs even more to do with what they already had.
I can understand if you can't create any new material yourself, but if you want to try and be so dismissive of the creative efforts of others you should at least be able to create something yourself. Endlessly rewriting and rehashing already extant material is not creative. FtA and the LGG, while based on the original folio, both took it in new and useful directions, and is creative. They helped develop a flavor for the setting.
Still, to undertake such products and keep that flavor consistent, a research staff is needed to put together an index of references. It is just that they are willing to go further and actually create instead of sit and wait. They are the one who will drive and define the setting for the future.
The beauty of the Greyhawk campaign is that the work wasn't complete. That was the intention of the setting. It can be rewritten, taken in interesting and new directions, and expanded upon, but the folio is the 'original' material. New material can be unique and creative but in respect to a 'common base' won't actually be the 'original material' without the ability to go back in time and alter the folio.
As for the Index, well I don't think the word 'variation' applies. It isn't a supplemnt, it is a reference work and I try to make it as unvaried as possible.
As a Greyhawk DM I create a little bit of my own variant Greyhawk campaign everyday. It's just part of the job of being a Greyhawk DM and I think we all do it.
New material can be unique and creative but in respect to a 'common base' won't actually be the 'original material' without the ability to go back in time and alter the folio.
IMO, part of Greyhawk's appeal is in its various incarnations. Each is sufficiently different to essentially stand on its own without reference to what has gone before (although doing so looses the richness of the setting, IMO).
There are shared commonalities that were first described in the Folio but the differences are just as great, if not more so, in subsequent incarnations. This appears to disturb some fans of one incarnation or another, which I really don't get as I like all of the incarnations, particularly when taken together (even if I have my favorite, too).
There is a debt to the Folio certainly but it is now minor after Sargent, Moore, Mona etc. The Folio is no longer the absolute touchstone it once was.
I do not know but I will venture that as many people who now account themselves Greyhawk fans have come to Greyhawk without seeing the Folio or 83 Boxed Set as have seen it.
IMO, part of Greyhawk's appeal is in its various incarnations. Each is sufficiently different to essentially stand on its own without reference to what has gone before (although doing so looses the richness of the setting, IMO).
There are shared commonalities that were first described in the Folio but the differences are just as great, if not more so, in subsequent incarnations. This appears to disturb some fans of one incarnation or another, which I really don't get as I like all of the incarnations, particularly when taken together (even if I have my favorite, too).
There is a debt to the Folio certainly but it is now minor after Sargent, Moore, Mona etc. The Folio is no longer the absolute touchstone it once was.
I do not know but I will venture that as many people who now account themselves Greyhawk fans have come to Greyhawk without seeing the Folio or 83 Boxed Set as have seen it.
While Sargent and all the others have offered interesting versions of Greyhawk, Gygax created the campaign. It is like saying that Conan Doyle's contribution to Sherlock Holmes has become of minor import.
The magic of the original campaign is as alive now as it was 25 years ago. It will be alive 25, 50 or more years from now. I don't see it becoming of minor importance or influence anytime in the future.
While Sargent and all the others have offered interesting versions of Greyhawk, Gygax created the campaign. It is like saying that Conan Doyle's contribution to Sherlock Holmes has become of minor import.
The magic of the original campaign is as alive now as it was 25 years ago. It will be alive 25, 50 or more years from now. I don't see it becoming of minor importance or influence anytime in the future.
Sargent's Flanaess is significantly different than Gygax's in both tone and substance. They are related, of course, but post-Sargent the Flanaess is substantially a different place and the further on we go the less is owed to Gygax's version of the Flanaess.
Taking the Sherlock Holmes example, you offer. Doyle wrote the original Holmes books. One of these, Hound of the Baskervilles, was made into a movie starring Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce. The movie proved sufficiently popular that an entire series were made with Rathbone and Bruce (who are considered the finest and classic screen Holmes and Watson). The movies, however, "updated" Holmes and Watson to the WWII era. They are related to Doyle's original works in the main characters but are otherwise easily distinguishable.
Thus, it is with Gygax' Flanaess and that of Sargent, to say nothing of post-Sargent developments. While an original debt is owed to Gygax, like Doyle, that debt is diminished by subsequent works - in this case Sargent (or with Doyle, the Rathbone/Bruce movies).
The importance of any author's work, unless slavishly followed, will be diminished by subsequent writers who pick up the names, places and characters but then take them in different directions. Your argument for the eternal relevance of Gygax to Greyhawk is belied by any meaningful comparison of Gygax' work to Sargent's - same place - totally different feel. Gygax remains important but his importance is diminished when the entire Greyhawk opus is considered. While his initial work will, of course, always be regarded hightly, he is now one among several Greyhawk voices.
Thinking about it - the on again, off again Nyrond + Almor vs Great Kingdom conflict from 356 CY to 584 CY could be the closest so far that the Flanaess has come to an equivalent to the One Hundred Years War. In the days of imperial Keoland (part the first
), Keoland and Veluna/Furyondy had a festing conflict that streched over a century or so (IIRC). The Turmoil Between the Crowns lasted nearly a good 20 years. The South Province and the Sea Barons nver really got on with the Iron League after 447 CY - a tension that still remains alive in the 590's. It is surprising that after their first clash in 253 CY, Nyrond (then part of the Great Kingdom) and Furyondy have never really interfered with each other since.
As for future regional wars - the Second Turmoil between the Crowns is an obvious one.
Iuz v Furyondy is another
Pale vs Tenh is already in progress in LG.
Tiger Nomads V Wolf Nomads
A war between the Bakluni states has been brewing for decades.
The Scarlet Brotherhood has been asking for someone to challenge its power in the Azure Sea since the end of the Greyhawk Wars and Ahlissa and a resurgant imperial Keoland are just the powers to do it.
Dyvers and Hardby (and Duchy Urnst?) vs GHC over borders and sovereignty?
There's already rumblings of war between Stonefist and the Suel barbarians - throw SB subversion of the Fruztii and Ratik (joined by a possible union) into the mix and you have a very explosive situation.
Jut a few random war mongering thoughts....
P.
In the days of imperial Keoland (part the first ), Keoland and Veluna/Furyondy had a festing conflict that streched over a century or so (IIRC).
It was 88 years.
And it was Imperial Keoland (part the second). Part the first was the period between Mandros and the Slumbering, when Keoland expanded into Sterich, the Yeomanry, and the Gran March, and engaged in a few other campaigns with non-permanent victories.
But yes, you now see the instability beneath the veil of peace. The Flanaess should have armies marching every other season. It needs more war, not less.
The Scarlet Brotherhood has been asking for someone to challenge its power in the Azure Sea since the end of the Greyhawk Wars and Ahlissa and a resurgant imperial Keoland are just the powers to do it.
Don't forget the Furyondian Navy!!! ;) . . . . . (CF joke ;) )
I had the thought that given dynastic marriages were so in vogue in MA Europe, might there have been intermarriages between the royal house of Furyondy and, say Keoland, Nyrond or the Urnsts (those Gellors get about). Think of how interesting it would be if Lynwerd of Nyrond or Belissica of Urnst had a (distant) claim on the Triple Crown of Furyondy? Obviously the great lords of Furyondy would sooner die than see a Nyrondese king or an Urnsian queen enthroned in Chendl, but wouldn't it be interesting?
P.
Likewise I can't see any dynastic marriage between Nyrond and Aerdy, particularly once the Ivids came to power.
That leaves between Nyrond and Furyondy, which I can see as possible, but never mentioned. And, to me much more likely, marriages within "metaregion" families. Owen and Querchard are both mentioned as kinsmen of Kimbertos. And Thrommel was to marry Jolene. I can see similar marriages in the Sheldomar and Old Ferrond. Indeed, maybe some dynastic marriage fueled the fear of the Shield Lands being absorbed (although I'm not a fan of the concept) if Belvor was something like 14th in line to be Earl. Nyrond remains a problem if the Gellors are presumed to be as pure Suel as their people. Obviously they wouldn't be able to marry all those Oeridians and still keep that nice pasty complexion. And the Theocracy of the Pale is ill-suited to such marriages. However Nyrond could easily have marriages with Almor and members of the Iron League.
Peculiar in comparison to historical Europe, but it seems more likely.
Still, if the marriages came through lesser houses and convoluted inheritances, you never know. It could be Louis XIV and the Wars of Devolution all over.
Given that Thrommel is all vampired and thereby almost certianly out of the running for the throne of Furyondy (though Thrommel the Bloodking has a nice ring to it), who's next in line to the throne when Belvor finally gives up the ghost?
Thats only if you follow what the abomination known as RtoEE made him into. Otherwise if you ignore that he would be the next in line for the throne and then the uniting of Veluna and Furyondy under one house would be complete.
Maraudar
Simplicity is the name of the game. Lets go back to basics. There are a few things that are established cannon that need to stay (e.g. The Rain of Colorless Fire, The Invoked Devistation, Mordenkainen and the Co8, Greyhawk Castle, ToEE, etc.) However, you don't need a lengthy history of each region of the Flaness to make the game fun. You don't even need to include the Greyhawk Wars. It could be like a Greyhawk Year One.
Here is what you really need:
1. A map of the Flanaess
2. Some iconic good guys
3. Some iconic bad guys
4. A 1 ¶ description of each race
5. A 1 ¶ description of each region and where it is on the map
After that, it should all be up to the DM to what else he wants to include.
What you've described will only make one group happy. Everyone else will wonder why they wasted their money.
Thats only if you follow what the abomination known as RtoEE made him into. Otherwise if you ignore that he would be the next in line for the throne and then the uniting of Veluna and Furyondy under one house would be complete.
:evillaugh
I must confess that Verbobonc ruled by a vampire lord would really be the kind of refreshment I would like to see for Greyhawk in the near future...
:DSimplicity is the name of the game. Lets go back to basics. There are a few things that are established cannon that need to stay (e.g. The Rain of Colorless Fire, The Invoked Devistation, Mordenkainen and the Co8, Greyhawk Castle, ToEE, etc.) However, you don't need a lengthy history of each region of the Flaness to make the game fun. You don't even need to include the Greyhawk Wars. It could be like a Greyhawk Year One.
Here is what you really need:
1. A map of the Flanaess
2. Some iconic good guys
3. Some iconic bad guys
4. A 1 ¶ description of each race
5. A 1 ¶ description of each region and where it is on the map
After that, it should all be up to the DM to what else he wants to include.
I hope you realise that the things that you consider as unnecessary are the things that others regard as the heart and soul of the campaign setting? I cherish the deep and detailed history of the setting and its individual regions. Reducing the info to the five points you mentioned would make Greyhawk so utterly generic that it would be completely superfluous.
And leaving the Greyhawk Wars out of the campaign setting it is topic that has caused more than one flame war. There are a lot of people (mostly veteran old school gamers) that absolutely hate them and there are people (like me) that consider them to be one of the defining events in the history of the campaign setting.
Simplicity is the name of the game. Lets go back to basics. There are a few things that are established cannon that need to stay (e.g. The Rain of Colorless Fire, The Invoked Devistation, Mordenkainen and the Co8, Greyhawk Castle, ToEE, etc.) However, you don't need a lengthy history of each region of the Flaness to make the game fun. You don't even need to include the Greyhawk Wars. It could be like a Greyhawk Year One.
The request for a return to basics has my sympathy. A simple framework has the advantage that DM's can concentrate on developing adventures without worrying too much about coherence. While it allows for much freedom, the DM has to start from scratch.
On the other hand leafing through other modules and borrowing ideas, maps, characters enhances new adventures. Furthermore it increases the make-belief that PC's are actually wandering around in the Flanaess.
Obviously the Living Gazetteer was an attempt at creating a detailed but not overloaded framework. A lot of the material had already been published before. The Atlas of the Flanaess, The Marklands and the Players Guide to Greyhawk are but a few examples.
All these attempts at clarification of the original World of Greyhawk boxed set have their merits. We can regret however that many places on the map remain blank spots, even despite occasional add-ons in adventure-modules.
A few suggestions: some Volo Guides or better still Gazetteers of each region such as the excellent books The Dwarves of Rockhome, The Kingdom of Ierendi and others.
They would be optional of course, but a great help for DM's with very little spare time. The Living Greyhawk experience is an excellent opportunity. Each Triad could write and develop such a Guide or Gazetteer. Hopefully WotC could post them for download by many players who cannot participate actively.
I had thought that the Gellors were a bit more open-minded and adventurous than their stick in the mud Duchy cousins.
But maybe that's just me.
As for dynastic marriages - well, going forward we have one with the Sallivarians of Urnst (themselves related to the Lorinars) and the House of (Rax-)Nyrond in the form of Xenia and Lynwerd (in LG at least).
I've been thinking that Xavener's wife might have been of the House of Haxx - which might have been one reason why they were awarded Naerie.
Jian Destron is still unwed and Onnwal could use a good dynastic match to secure some allies (a Nyrondese lady would be a first preference [good counterweight to Ahlissa] - but in LG the recent political developments have scotched that somewhat)
As for Furyondy - if Belvor has no heir (which in Canon he doesn't due to Thrommel's state), then I assume some backtracking through cousins, removed or otherwise is in order. That could make for some *very* intersting politics in Old Ferrond in the near future - espcially if you throw the demi-god to the north and the inevtiable machinations of the Suel supremacists to the (distant) south into the mix.
P.
Furyondy - Since Belvor has finally realized that he needs an heir, although how a King facing an evil Demi-God left succession doubts this long is beyond me, you would think some courtier would mention it, hoping Thrommel would return I guess.
Rest assured the noble families of Furyondy are telling their daughters and sisters too put on their best frocks...perhaps the Countess of the Gold County hmmm.
As for House Haxx, apparently they are an ascending "middle house" with good mercantile resources and an impressive miltary record but I don't think that rates an Overqueen possible marriage not with Darmen politicing for the throne.
I could see a match within house Darmen too cement Xavener place as head candidate or may be another major house from another province too provide alliances when he thought he would have too take Rauxes by force.
Haxx was awarded Naerie because the are ascending and have military skills, Xavener still isn't secure he may need allies in the future and is securing Haxx loyalty with Naerie.