Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ferratus Mar 09, 2005 14:11:50	Originally Posted by True_Blue wrote:
#2 talinthas Mar 09, 2005 14:21:07	there is an editor at wotc named Mark S. who is their Dragonlance expert. more than that, i don't know, save that contracts say that SP can't spoil novels in their books.
#3 true_blue Mar 09, 2005 14:30:05	I think this is a very good question and I, for one, am very interested what kind of role other authors and the game designers from SP play when a novel is introduced and is being made. I said a lot of what I wanted to on the other threads, but this new book has sent my outrage over the limit. This new book resembles Dragonlance very little and is downright horrible. The only thing that a Crown Knight in this book resembles a Crown Knight, is that they are called a "Crown Knight". The same goes for the other two orders, and the Knights of Solamnia as a whole. If you renamed the three orders X, Y, Z, and then took out the, what 3?, references to the Oath and Measure, I bet most ppl reading this couldnt even figure out that those 3 armies were supposed to be Knights. The fact that Auraks are the only true draconians who can fly is actually more annoying than Dalamar having blond hair. If someone started reading the books now, I would love to hear the convo "But Aurak's are the only ones who can fly, not Sivaks.. this book says so!" "No the DLCS says this!" As I said in the other thread, I'd love to meet the "Dragonlance team" who helped this guy out. Seriously.. I don't want to knock anyone and have personal attacks, but the guy is sorely lacking in Dragonlance knowledge. I also mentioned I hope that eventually some of the people at SP put in novel proposels. I mean, they actually do their homework and the world is actually more consistant because of the new books, than less like what happens a lot of times. When I read the Dragonlance novels that have come out in the past 2 years, I see books that almost seem to be detailing a whole different worlds. Organizations and people act contrary to everything we know about them. Its really weird and disheartening. Technically, people really dont *owe* us an explanation. But personally, I'd love to know if any of the SP have input into the novels when they are being written, or if certain authors come to them for information, etc. Most of these authors probably havent even read the DLCS, which is just plain sad. I just read the Serpent's Kiss for FR, and I was amazed just how much that author referenced things and actually made it have a D&D feel, while even going in depth about certain powers, spells, etc.. it was refreshing. You *know* she reads things about what she is going to talk about. That is what I like to see. If it was just the novels being bad, I'd say screw it... I just ignore the novels, no biggie. But this is actually a gaming problem seeing as I assume that SP will keep things current and incorporate these new developments into the gaming products this makes. And I'm worried that now the Knights will be written up like they have been in the novels. Luckily when Wizards Conclave was released, we got Towers of High Sorcery that took a better approach to the whole sorceror approach. I hope to see more of this "tweaking" in the future so that the Dragonlance game we know and love doesnt get overwritten.
#4 talinthas Mar 09, 2005 14:35:57	dude. book 1 of 3. i'm sure that the knights we will see in 2k7 are not the knights we see now. and the rest of us read the same book you did, and are just as tweaked about auraks and kapaks, and small niggling details. get over it. Think instead of how cool Cornellus's place is, and how awesome it would be to run a campaign based around there. and all the other great little setting details, like descriptions of the cities and churches and stuff.
#5 ferratus Mar 09, 2005 14:48:24	Well, we've all been angry before. Remember myself after DLCS first came out? ;) I see no problem with acknowledging some faults. Certainly it is troublesome when the book doesn't flow naturally from previous sources. The entire dragonlance setting, in many ways, is a chain novel. "Lord of the Rose" is a rather stunning break from the flow of the narrative. It would have been perhaps more helpful if Doug Niles had started from the beginning rather than the middle. For example, where did these Dukes come from? Who spoke the prophecy? Why was Lord Lorimar so important? These came out of nowhere and were never properly explained. For the future, Are the knights fallen, or is this the author's view of what the knights are? Is this a story about redemption of the antihero and the Knights of Solamnia themselves? Will we see clerical abilities, knightly ethics and codes of conduct, and the excellence of fighting men? I see a four good knights in this book, will I see more? These are definately questions I would like to ask Doug Niles himself.
#6 talinthas Mar 09, 2005 14:53:53	email him and let us know =) he's been remarkably frank about answering everyone's questions so far.
#7 Dragonhelm Mar 09, 2005 15:02:14	These are definately questions I would like to ask Doug Niles himself. We're going to have a Doug Niles Q&A session around late April on the DL.com boards, which will focus on Lord of the Rose. This would be a good time to bring questions.
#8 ferratus Mar 09, 2005 15:12:21	I'm afraid I'll have to get you to do it for me, I'm afraid I don't know the email address. Essentially all the questions on the previous post would about sum up a great deal of what I'm confused about. 1. What are the dukes? Are they what the Knights of Solamnia call the war leaders of a particular region or nation? Are these new titles, or titles from pre-cataclysmic antiquity? 2. Were these dukes the High Warrior, the High Clerist, and the High Justice? 3. Where is Liam Ehrling (or if dead, the current Grandmaster) in all this? 4. How many knights are currently on the rolls of the knighthood? Has Ankhar already destroyed most of the knights? 5. Are the knights an elite group who command militia forces, or are they the rank and file warriors as well? 6. Who uttered the prophecy about the Lord of No-Sign? Who promulgated it? 7. What is the background of Lord Lorimar, and how did he become so important/influential? 8. Is this a story about redemption for the main hero or the knighthood itself? 9. Do you consider Sir Jaymes Markham a hero, an antihero, or a villain? 10. Did Vinas Solamnus found the dynasty of Kings? If so, how and when did the dynasty end? If you can send that to Douglas Niles Talinthas, I would be very much illuminated.
#9 true_blue Mar 09, 2005 16:37:26	Very good questions. This would answer a lot. About the only thing I can think of to "fix" this book, would be a prelude book made that did answer these questions and let us see how this current book could be made.
#10 Charles_Phipps Mar 09, 2005 17:01:39	Very good questions. This would answer a lot. About the only thing I can think of to "fix" this book, would be a prelude book made that did answer these questions and let us see how this current book could be made. Honestly, there was a time when fans were expected to make the pieces fit together themselves rather than be handed the answers by the authors. The assumption wasn't that the authors were wrong but the fans hadn't yet seen the pieces fit together...like with Star Wars. I'm a tad disturbed by this demanding and angry attitude amongst fans. In www.dragonlance.com someone actually was very rude in their questions to the Mary interview about Linsha in my opinion. I would hope people would want their "background information" either in future books, but if not, then from the game supplements and be patient about it. Cam and others frequent the boards, they know our concerns. We can at least be polite about them
#11 true_blue Mar 09, 2005 17:12:28	This book about the Knights pretty much hit me like what this example would: "If we saw a book about the Wizards of High Sorcery, and in it, without any introduction or explanation, all the White Robes had to be women and wear pink robes, all the Red Robes wear green robes and refuse to work with any other robes or even talk to them, and the Black Robes all worship Sargonas and gain their powers from him." I mean the things in the book come without any explanation and actually are contrary and dont sync up with a lot of things that we knew about beforehand. If there was some kind of explanation how things *had changed*, I dont think it would cause such a problem. But you can't just come along and change things in a book without there being the way it happened. It would be like in the Chronicles Caramon being named Caramon, and then in Legends he's referred to as Drizzt or some something. I mean there was no transition, and its just there. Its just weird and seems very inconsistant.
#12 Charles_Phipps Mar 09, 2005 17:17:40	Honestly, Blue I'm not entirely against your objections. I'm actually of the mind that we're being denied a pretty kickass story tonight. The problem is that the Dramatic changes of the 5th Age are being glossed over save for the Linsha Trilogy and even then its largely just impliance. The Knights of Solamnia suddenly are in dissarray, an underground movement (I commented on this in my "Revised Measure" posts), made up of Non-Solamnics, and probably 60-80% dead with their gods having abandoned them. The collapse of the Knights was all set up yet we never saw it and it seemed sort of assumed that it didn't occur when the prologue says that it DID occur but they rebounded and slaughtered the knights with their gods' return but there's a "cleaning" action going up. I want to see this damnit! How many were traitors! How many were collaborators? How many broke every vow of the Measure for victory and how many survived without violating any? The idea the Grandmaster WASN'T killed is probably wishful thinking with Skie's massive armies of Draconians and Knights. Any base they had, he could just flatten.
#13 ferratus Mar 10, 2005 10:07:22	Well, that's why Liam Ehrling was chillin' in Sancrist. He shows up at the end of the Linsha trilogy as well, which means he outlived Skie at least.
#14 silvanthalas Mar 11, 2005 9:21:17	I'm a tad disturbed by this demanding and angry attitude amongst fans. Well, the excuses get old. There is supposedly a continuity editor for DL, yet we've already gotten half a dozen different descriptions of the Lake of Death, both between the novels and the game material. So yes, I do have to question whether this individual is doing their job. Some authors are so far off on their own (which, to be frank, is W&H with War of Souls) that when they introduce new leadership to the KoS, they don't even bother telling us what happened to the old leadership. Yet, that isn't difficult to do if you want to tell a continuing story, which Dragonlance is. Like I said, it just gets old.
#15 cam_banks Mar 11, 2005 10:00:29	Well, the excuses get old. I think the question is whether this requires fans to become demanding and angry. You can justify it however you like, of course, but that too gets old. Cheers, Cam
#16 frostdawn Mar 11, 2005 10:02:37	Well there is a lot of confusion about what the guidelines are about. By what process are things checked over before they go to print? What role does WotC play in the game books, and does Sovereign Press have any role in what goes into the novel content? Does the Dragonlance novel line have a continuity editor? I'm not saying that you should air your dirty laundry in public or spoil future storylines. I think we just would like to see the mechanics of it, either on Dragonlance.com or the Wotc dragonlance novel website. Is there any way this could be set up? Here's a small excerpt from an interview with Mary Herbert (following comment from Mary): "I try hard to keep up with the big details and to include the little details in my story, but I also rely heavily on my editor at Wizards to help keep me straight, answer questions, and fix any continuity mix-ups I have." and later... "Margaret has approval rights to the plots and any big story developments. Beyond that, it's the editor who carries the red pen." The full details of the interview can be seen here: http://www.dragonlance.com/features/articles/10019.aspx
#17 true_blue Mar 11, 2005 11:53:51	Personally I think that is worse. I truly do believe that each author needs to have a good knowledge of the world they plan on writing "in". I'm not saying it has to be the most extensive knowledge or whatever, but you can just tell most of the time if the author is familiar with the setting or not. The story just seems so much worse when you can tell this person doesnt really know much about Dragonlance. Things dont exactly flow right. When reading Chronicles you can tell its Weis's and Hickman's world. It flows..its good. As I said, I just read Viper's Kiss for FR, and you can tell that Lisa Smedman has done her homework or research. A lot of things she references goes right along with the history of FR. Also you can even see the D&D feel by the way she references psionics powers and other things. I liked the book a lot. I think FR has cleaned up a lot(although I never think it will be perfect), and I think this has been *because* the fans have become demanding. They got tired of so many FR books being made, with barely any of them referencing another one. The line has gotten so big that there will always be inconsistancies, but man if you read any of the new gaming books or novels, they are clearing up whole swaths of inconsistancies. Its great..and makes for an enjoyable world. I actually applaud people who try to hold Dragonlance people responsible(maybe because I'm one of them). And personally, I have no problem with how SP is doing things. There are certain things I may not like, but I see lots of others who love the things I dont, and I say "hey look at those people it makes happy". Other things I didnt like, through explanation from designers and other fans coupled with lots of thinking on my part, I started to accept and like and have changed my campaign occordingly. One of these would be each person can only have one patron god. In the gaming books that have come out, many of the complains I may have are relatively minor(with justa few exceptions), so all in all.. I have no problem with the ppl at SP. My problems.. have mainly come from the novel line. Obviously some of them *don't* try to keep things consistant, and rely on others (who obviously dont care as much) to do the job for them. In the end though, I could ignore the novels. I wouldnt waste my time writing in *****ing and moaning if all I would have to do is just not read it, and nothing else is affected. Unfortunately, we have been told time and time again that the gaming products follow the novels. This means what happens in the novels is what gets transfered into the gaming products. So when I see huge gaps and inconsistancies, I think to myself.. well how will SP handle these things? Will they be the teamplayer and go along with it? Or will they forge out on their own and do what they think is best? Honestly I dont know what answer is "right" and I have no advise. The problem comes from the fact that SP even has to choose. These authors should be trying to make it consistant as they go, not expect others to come along and "fix anything I missed..." Call it *****ing, whining, etc.. I accept it. I am that guy. But as I've learned, if you do not actually say something when you have a problem with something, chances are things will never get changed. I hate it when people say "Well vote with your dollar!". People on the miniatures board say that to ppl all the time and I dont think its constructive. I do not want the line to fail. I like the product. I've already bought Lord of the Rose, or the other novels. I have to in order to read them (in order for me to even know if they are good). And no I have no Barnes and Nobles. The not buying of one of their books I doubt will really change things. Personally if I did know a way to get ahold of "someone in the know" I would and I would voice my opinions and thoughts. Now maybe I assume too much, and probably do, but I guess some of the reason some of us mention the things we dislike is maybe some of the SP people do actually have the ear of some of the people. Now do I think my lonely concerns actually should sway an author? Not really.. but with as many people who write in about that book..I think it should at least be looked at. We used to have great novels in Dragonlance, and subpar gaming materials. Now its going the other way. Maybe there is something to the Balance thing in Dragonlance.
#18 Charles_Phipps Mar 11, 2005 12:01:49	We used to have great novels in Dragonlance, and subpar gaming materials. Now its going the other way. Maybe there is something to the Balance thing in Dragonlance. Ummm True Blue....you're kidding right? Dragonlance has always had the worst knock off novels in the game line. Come on....Kenderhome...Dark Queen....please. For every diamond you'll always get some coal. Given Lord of the Rose was DOUGLAS NILES, I also think you're wildly speculating that the authors don't know anything about the setting....and just dead wrong. They may CHOOSE to portray it differently but the ignorance defense is one that I think is wrong
#19 wolffenjugend_dup Mar 11, 2005 17:41:16	I was just going to say, D. Niles authored the book. He writes some of the best DL stuff out there.
#20 silvanthalas Mar 11, 2005 22:22:03	Ummm True Blue....you're kidding right? Dragonlance has always had the worst knock off novels in the game line. Come on....Kenderhome...Dark Queen....please. Novels which were written 10-15 years ago. I was saying for a few years now, even with all the continuity and other such problems, that the DL novels are at their best. I think they still. But there is always room for improvement, *particularly* in the area of continuity. Is this demanding? I don't think so. But if others do, so be it. Why continuity hasn't really improved (imo) while other aspects have (such as quality of story) is beyond me.
#21 true_blue Mar 11, 2005 23:26:54	I personally don't care who wrote the book. I know who Douglas Niles is, and what he has done. That means nothing to me when there are inconsistancies up the wuzzah. Say there are 5 people who help create a world. And for years the 5 people write books and gaming materials and things are the same all the way through, or at least pretty similar. Then all of a sudden one of those 5 people writes a new book, and he renames things, changes things, etc. Now you all can say: Hey thats "this" guy, he's a designer, so he's right. Well if he is writing things contrary to everything we know.. then no he's not. Things like Dalamar having blond hair, aurak's are the only draconians capable of flight, kapaks are black, etc is not right. I dont care who in the world he is. He's wrong. Now maybe he didnt know Dalamar had blond hair, whatever. i find it hard to believe but I guess its possible. But if he helped make the books, has his names on many of the gaming books, etc.. your telling me he didnt know Auraks dont have wings? Also that kapaks arent black? If he doesnt know that, than I shudder to think what else is wrong. My biggest gripe was the portrayel of the Knighthood. Basically I didnt believe that they were even Knights of Solamnia. *Nothing* in that book really gave you the sense that they were Knights of Solamnia, except him saying "these are knights of the crown, etc". He might as well have said: You see those ogres over there, those are Knights of Solamnia. Nothing that they did, their culture, etc even resembled the Knighthood one little bit. The Measure and Oath were barely even mentioned, except as an afterthought. Now I can go with the fact that they were "fallen", again.. but in Chronicles things were clearly spelled out and we knew they were Knights and even acted like them in most cases. Now some people may disagree with me on the Knighthood thing, and thats their perogative. Whatever.. maybe people see Knight of Solamnia traits in the characters in the book.. thats fine. But you can not tell me that the inconsistancies arent adding up. And to just let things go "because he's Douglas Niles!" I think is wrong. I would hold up any author to their work if they are playing in a world that is established. Now theres always room for new things being added. Authors do that all the time. But you shouldnt have authors just change things whenever they feel like it, or because of lack of knowledge. There should have been a Dragonlance person *somewhere* who caught things like auraks are the only ones capable of flight. God, someone somewhere should have read that and been like.. wait a minute. Maybe a lot of the editors and "help" are the same as a lot of Dragonlance fans out there, and think "Um he's Douglas Niles".. so they dont say anything. And I personally think its a shame. No one is above not remembering key things. And I think things should be pointed out. I think ferratus got it right when he said he thinks Douglas Niles thinks he knows more about the setting than what he does. The fact that he helped right some of the gaming modules, books, etc is moot. If you get things wrong, you got things wrong. And the fact you helped make certain things actually makes it worse. Now you can say I'm just bashing on this one author, but it just so happens that I'm pointing out the newer novels that have the inconsistancies. I would hold every author to the same standard. There is nothing we can do now about there being a half-orc, etc.. but maybe by pointing out things now someone somewhere will encourage the guy to take a look at the DLCS or something. I didnt really like the Linsha trilogy so much, but I'll admit that she seems to know a smattering of the world and I actually didnt catch any incosistancies that i can think of. As I said, some of the FR novels I've been reading lately have been great when referencing FR history and even referencing things how they are in D&D. Some things are even put in D&D terms, I find it refreshing. As I said, people can call it whining, etc.. whatever I accept it. And things like the draconians can be overlooked because for the most part we all know better. But what happens when SP does something detailing the Knights. Will they be like how they are described int hese novels.. or how they were originally intended and actually are. Thats why I worry about the novels.. because the gaming books follow them. I dunno, in the end no one is above constructive criticizm(sp?). I dont care if they are Weis, Douglas Niles, etc. I dont get angry about things like character names, etc.. thats the authors perogative. But things like changing exactly how things are.. is what annoys me. eh it happens..the novels are good books, its the details that are lacking. They actually are good stories, its the details and the changing of things that just seems weird. *shrug* just thought I'd say my last peace. I had said either in this thread or another one I wouldnt write in too much more about it. Just wanted to state my opinion on the whole "But its Douglas Niles!" thing.
#22 Charles_Phipps Mar 11, 2005 23:52:30	To be blunt True Blue. I don't think that Dalamar's hair or Auraks having the power to fly matters. I think that its nitpicking and it should be easily ignorable. Do you know what I find ironic. THAT PEOPLE WERE COMPLAINING DALAMAR HAD BLACK HAIR BEFORE THIS. Dalamar is a Silvastani, a FAIR and BRIGHT people who for some reason have birthed this dark haired little critter. Coryn the Dark Haired is still being ripped into for being dark haired despite being ice Folk. As for the Auraks having the power to fly, its a typo. It's NOT important. But what I don't understand true Blue is that even as I can relate to your hatred for the novel (I can understand why) is your problem that you can't relate to the the story demands the KNIGHTHOOD HAS BECOME A GANG OF THUGS. The story is about the Knights of solamnia when they've completely fractured and I don't think this is a case of simple name dropping. Douglas has accurately described the politics of the Knights, Palanthas, and plenty of other stuff that goes well beyond being a mere laymen in terms of Dragonlance. This is a story about a warrior who is arguably evil (almost inarguably) that will eventually either become a villain or be redeemed and become the savior of the Knighthood. If the bloody knights of Solamnia were united, proud, and brave it wouldn't really be a story about their FALL FROM GRACE AND RISE TO PROMINENCE now would it my friend? Quite honestly, I find the entire idea that fans can write novels better than established authors to be a bit tiresome and while certainly I am willing to disagree with authors on interpretations, I come to recognize that ultimately I should respect that its not my world and also that THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. I've written novels and given they're still waiting to be published, I know how difficult the system can be. You may hate the novel and hate the fact that no one is rising up and arms about the novel but I'm interested in where its going, this series and I think the Knighthood being fractured is a very good angle to explore. The very IDEA that you're forwarding that the man's VERY BASIS OF PLOT is born of ignorance of how the setting works is what I'm challenging. I say he's DOUGLAS NILES not because I'm stating that the man is some godlike entity, I'm saying it because he's a man who KNOWS HIS SHAVIT. Certainly, he knows Dragonlance and if the Knighthood is fractured then I bet there's a darn good reason for it. I've tried to meet the matter halfway but I want to see where the book goes and discuss what it brings to the setting. I furthermore will rise to defend Douglas and the publishers....so long as they deserve it and that seems to be unlikely to dissapar anytime soon I sympathize with your plight but you've stated your case, I think there's not much that can be accomplished just by complaining. A better mode is to figure some way of how it can fit or asking whether people think they should ignore it or not. And it follows the novels because that's where the Creator's Vision is controlled. I'll let Douglas speak for himself from his interview though Rise of a Lord It has been quite the journey for the man who wrote his first Dragonlance novel, Flint the King (with Mary Kirchoff), back in 1989. For five years prior to that, Niles had been working in the Dragonlance world as a game designer, writing some of the original AD&D modules and many resource products. So, what does he think of Krynn two decades later? "I continue to be impressed by the story potential of the world and the passion of its legions of fans. Tracy and Margaret, in addition to writing wonderful stories about this place, have created a realm with seemingly infinity possibilities, and I am delighted to be able to add some threads to this fantastic tapestry," he says. And the world's complexity strikes him as "mindboggling. Even though I consider myself fairly well versed in the world's history -- I have re-read a number of Weis/Hickman novels in the last year just to try and refresh my memory -- I inevitably find myself making errors in continuity. Fortunately, some sharp-eyed reader is always willing to step forward and let me know about it!"
#23 wizo_sith Mar 12, 2005 13:16:15	Flaming/baiting/bashing/slamming, etc... are all violations of the [u]WotC Online Code of Conduct[/u] and such behavior is not tolerated on these forums. This thread will be locked. Do not restart it. *Click*