Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 rexaroo Mar 11, 2005 2:28:52	if SKs are 60-70 level characters, how powerful is rajaat? should he be around 20 levels above the SKs. just think, he made them and he must have thought that he could destroy them and or undo their powers when the cleansing wars were over. and according to RISE AND FALL OF A DRAGON KING rajaat was originally planning to make hamanu into a dragon. so he'd have to be powerful enough to take on all the champions AND a full dragon.
#2 Pennarin Mar 11, 2005 2:34:01	100+ Check out the boards when the search function is back, you'll see plenty of threads that discuss Rajaat's power level. ;)
#3 mahungee Mar 11, 2005 8:54:42	the sorc-Kings for athas.orga are 60+lvl!!!! holly molly weren't they around 25/25 dual class in 2nd ed? why the massibe power boost? (mmm a bit off-topic methinks)
#4 superpriest Mar 11, 2005 9:42:48	Yeah, I'd put the Sorcerer-Kings around 35 and Rajaat around 50.
#5 zombiegleemax Mar 11, 2005 10:29:00	the sorc-Kings for athas.orga are 60+lvl!!!! holly molly weren't they around 25/25 dual class in 2nd ed? why the massibe power boost? (mmm a bit off-topic methinks) It isn't really as massive of a power boost as it seems. The reality of the situation is that advanced beings don't convert well using the standard 2e to 3e conversion because you end up with a character that is significantly less powerful than they were intended to be. The only way to capture what the SK's are supposed to be "capable of" in terms of backstory and novels is to have them be both epic spellcasters and epic or near epic psionic (of some variety) characters. If you accept this argument, then the conclusion is that pre-dragon SK's have at least 30 class levels for the most optimized, with some being closer to 40 before even starting the dragon process, add to that some LA due to the champion template. In combination with a high starting point, you have the relatively accepted belief that the power change of an advanced being metamorphisis is too significant to be only a 10 level process (at least my impression is that it's an accepted belief. There is certainly a variety of opinions on what it is, but I would say most agree it is not exclusively a 10 step process), and you wind up with a mid-metamorphisis SK being closer to 60 than 40, with an end stage SK like Dregoth probably beyond 60. So, if you want SK's to be in the 35 range, then you must either believe that A) they were not as powerful as the sourcebooks and novels would indicate before beginning the dragon metamorphisis process or B) the dragon process itself is either less powerful than most people believe it to be or C) the dragon process even though powerful is balanced compared to other 10 step prestige classes. As for Rajaat, he needs to be a significant step above the SK's, but I don't think that actual class levels adequately capture this though. I'm also uncomfortable giving him a bunch of divine ranks as a way to boost his power, I'd be more likely to give him some unique "first sorcerer" template or series of templates with a bunch of special abilities resembling divine salient abilities. Have him wind up with an ECL of 99, manifester and caster levels close to the same, special abilities out the wazoo.
#6 beyowulf Mar 11, 2005 13:10:51	I'd be more likely to give him some unique "first sorcerer" template or series of templates with a bunch of special abilities resembling divine salient abilities. Have him wind up with an ECL of 99, manifester and caster levels close to the same, special abilities out the wazoo. Someone like Rajaat, likely would have put in safeguards against his champions turning against him. Maybe some sort of built-in compulsion that prevents the SKs from resisting his power too much. So whenever Rajaat uses some sort of spell against a Champion, he or she takes a -10 to saves. If Rajaat were little stronger the average champion, but this would've certainly given made him seem much stronger than he would be. Still, during all that time in the Hollow, he seems to have gotten quite a bit stronger. So, how powerful is Rajaat? Hella tough. As strong as Mister T? Well, that'd probably be going overboard.
#7 zombiegleemax Mar 11, 2005 13:26:26	We gotta ask Dawnstealer to draw Charlie going SS!!!! :D
#8 lyric Mar 11, 2005 14:38:12	I don't know if experience progression remains the same at epic levels as it does prior to level 20, but if it follows the same progression.... Any curious to see what level a Dragon or Avangion Character would be at just to "start" the process if you kept the experience requirements of 2e?? Ok, to be a dual class Psionicist wizard, as a preserver you needed 6,750,000 experience to be 20/20, in 2e... As a defiler, 5,700,000... so if the progression remained the same after epic levels, to hit the same experience.. you'd have to be (just to start the process) Just shy of level 117 as a preserver, and Just shy of 108 as a defiler.. then, if you wanted to look at the experience for completion... we're talking a total of.. 13,950,000 for a defiler, and 13,150,000 for a preserver, that's nearly 169, and 163 respectively.. now, that right there would explain why, in the stories, those old characters were taking forever to progress! (using 2e that's a heck of a lot of exerience!!) and using 3e! well, just be glad they don't require the same experience!! (a level 8-11 2e character translates over to a level 20 3e character, depending on original class, just by experience). What level do I think Rajaat is?? who cares, make him whatever level you like, higher or lower than the SK's, but as was mentioned earlier, do give him cool unique templates that show off his status, and grant him special bonuses against his SK's.. you could even say that he's barely epic level, say, 30 or so (yeah, barely) but that the advantages his SK's have, (which he gave them) don't apply to him. :-) So you could treat them as level 20 characters against him.. or at least level 21... and the compulsion idea has merrit, I think he enchanted them all with a gease / quest spell upon their creation. Forcing them to hunt for the blue age.
#9 Pennarin Mar 11, 2005 18:53:43	Let's say the Champion of Rajaat template gives immunity to mind-affecting powers and spells... So with that in mind let's consider RaFoaDK, in which Rajaat commands a bunch of his Champions (about 10 I think) simply to "take goblets" that are laying around. Of course the Champions don't like being at the beck and call of their master and fight the command, but none can resists it and for some its so powerful they fall on their knees and throw up. In the end, all go and find a goblet for themselves. Rajaat can control all of his Champions, at the same time, using the power of his mind, weither Champions have immunity to mind-affecting powers and spells, power resistance, or epic saves. So what would Rajaat need in game terms to pull this off? 70+ levels in psion, some unknow class or template ability that makes it so his psionic powers punch through immunities and power resistance, and augmenting psionic dominate. Assuming Rajaat has Intelligence 40, 70 psion levels and has taken the Psionic Endowment and Greater Psionic Endowment feats, he can manifest an augmented psionic dominate with a DC of 63 affecting over 30 people. And that's assuming Int 40 is all natural. He can have inherent bonuses as well as complex epic spells cast on himself, and maybe epic items as well, that make it sky rocket, augmenting by at least 10 the DC, for a DC of 73+.