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Druid Knights of the Sword?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Charles_Phipps
Mar 13, 2005 18:15:13 I was curious if it was possible to have Druids of Habbuluk as Knights of the Sword spellcasters.

I think its an interesting change I think and I wonder how it'd impact a character.
#2
zombiegleemax
Mar 14, 2005 10:20:18 Well, the problem with this is, druids of Habbakuk tend to be concerned with advocating their god's portfolio as embodied in Nature, whereas the Knighthood is interested in the more civilized aspects of the god. While not impossible to see, I think it ought to be rarer than hen's teeth, a druidic Knight of the Sword. It would take a very interesting character, to be able to balance the wild side of Habbakuk, with Habbakuk's more civilized side.

Also, the weapon and armor restrictions on druids would severely hamper a druidic Knight's ability to access his prestige classes' features. Such a "barbaric Solamnic" might be the laughingstock of the entire Knighthood, and be barred from further advancement in his two Solamnic Knight classes. In any event, he would certainly have to deal with the social stigma of his "lifestyle choice."

--in summation, I think a druidic Solamnic Knight is about as likely as a Black Robe cleric of Zivilyn NB
#3
Charles_Phipps
Mar 15, 2005 17:44:23 Hmmm?

How about ranger Knights of the Sword?
#4
ferratus
Mar 16, 2005 16:00:38 Well, I can't see a problem with this unless we assume that the Sword Knights are members of faith of Kiri-Jolith alone.

Of course... there could be rangers of Habbakuk in the Order of the Crown regardless. There is no prohibition against divine spellcasters in that Order, it just isn't a requirement.

Arcane spellcasters either come to think of it... though the Knights probably would expel someone to the auxillary if they found out he was practicing it. Or would they? Dragonhelm? Cam?
#5
cam_banks
Mar 16, 2005 17:20:54 Knights of the Sword gain their powers from Kiri-Jolith (DLCS, page 58, Spells per Day/Spells Known) unless they are mystics, in which case they draw upon ambient divine magic. Rose Knights are likewise beholden to Kiri-Jolith in the Age of Mortals, and possibly even in the Age of Despair (since it's said in Dragonlance Adventures that "while the Knights of the Sword are followers of Paladine, they do, nevertheless, take their powers from Kiri-Jolith and honor him as well") although Rose Knights never used to possess the clerical abilities of higher-level Sword Knights.

This changed somewhat in 2nd edition, when Sword Knights could change orders once they reached 4th level in Sword Knight, but were able to wait until later. Therefore, it was possible to enter the Order of the Rose once the knight's minor spell progression kicked in. SAGA knight roles went even further and had Rose Knights improve their Spirit Code beyond that of the Sword Knight, making them even better mystics than their brothers.

But anyway, this is rehashing older discussions. My gut instinct is that Kiri-Jolith has always provided the clerical powers of the Knights of Solamnia, in the form of limited foresight, healing, and prophecy. He is for all intents and purposes the knight's patron deity, even though Paladine is held above his son in terms of worship and reverence (just as any non-cleric character can worship and revere any deity).

Cheers,
Cam
#6
zombiegleemax
Apr 04, 2005 15:38:02 Yeah, rangers and druids could be knights of the sword. or any other order, there's nothing restricting that, but it's a little unorthodox. on the other hand :thinkin:, it would give the knights very good scouts and the knight druid/rangers would already have informal combat training giving them an automatic (hopefully) ability to be able to handle themselves in most situations. The idea makes one think. Maybe the best thing to do is make a Ranger and or druid knight and see how it plays out.

hehe w00t, sounds like woot... cuz it is. i had a friend who used to say that at camp. very strange fellow

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=406945

check out my campaign at the link above!
#7
true_blue
Apr 04, 2005 19:24:37 Personally, I'd allow a Druid to become a Knight of Solamnia and raise up to Sword. If one can say: The Rose Knight gets his powers from Kiri-Jolith, but worships and reveres Paladine, then you can also say: The Knight of the Sword gets his spells from Habakkuk, but worships and reveres Kiri-Jolith as the "sponsor" for the Knights of the Sword, or even Rose now.

I still have not decided if I would let clerics or spellcasters of other deities into the Knights of Solamnia. I used to not even contemplate it, but now I'm turning more and more to the mind of "The patron deity provides the spells and powers, while the Knight still reveres the sponsor gods of the Orders respectively". Which would still go along with the thing Cam said.. a Rose who receives his spells from Kiri-Jolith, but still reveres Paladine(Pre-5th age). If one can do it with Paladine/Kiri-Jolith, I dont see why it cant be done with Habakkuk. I would say the same thing about other good gods, but I know there will be people who would like to limit Knights to worshipers of the Triangle gods(Paladine, Kiri-Jolith, and Habakkuk) and I think that wouldnt be too bad. But I think I'll probably allow others... it adds more diversity to the Knights, and makes the Knights of the Sword/Rose not just an arm of the Kiri-Jolith faith.

Also.. we may soon need to worry about if there will be worshippers of Shinare and Mishakal anyways. If there is more elaborated in the next two Knight novels, we may see those two as "patrons".
#8
Dragonhelm
Apr 04, 2005 20:27:13 You know, I'm surprised I haven't responded to this thread yet. Shame on me. :P

There are a few problems with having druids as Sword Knights. The key problem is that Sword Knights have to be LG, while druids all have a neutral aspect to their alignment. Knights of Solamnia are supposed to be champions of good and justice, while druids are a bit more detached from the world.

Likewise, Kiri-Jolith doesn't grant spells to druids. You might house rule this and say that Habbakuk is the patron deity. Again, though, you have the alignment issue.

As far as a ranger would go, you'd have an easier time of it. Again, watch your patron deity. If you house rule it, it'd work. I wouldn't recommend it, though.
#9
cam_banks
Apr 04, 2005 22:50:01
Likewise, Kiri-Jolith doesn't grant spells to druids. You might house rule this and say that Habbakuk is the patron deity. Again, though, you have the alignment issue.

The alignment issue really is the only major stumbling block. Kiri-Jolith could, technically, grant spells to a neutral good or lawful neutral druid, even though he's not one of the three core nature deities. It's just a matter of what that means for the druid's view of the world, and you'd have to address that in roleplay and background. But, whatever the case, he's not a lawful good character and that rules him out from taking the prestige classes. A ranger of Kiri-Jolith? Certainly possible. Common? Not really, but then neither are paladins.

Cheers,
Cam
#10
kalanth
Apr 05, 2005 4:56:25 I have a hard time seeing this. Why would a tree hugging hippie druid want to become a Knight of Solamnia? From all that I see in the druidic nature, Solamnic Knights are the complete oposite of what they believe in. Knights use animals as work animals instead of bonding with them as friends of nature (to include dragons that work along side of the knighthood). The knights also live primarily inside of cities and druids would never do that, being more comfortable in nature (course, that is also a common problem with Druid PCs, because we know all games end up in a city for the majority of the time). Also, the knights utilize metallic arms and armor, one more thing in the belief system that Druids don't agree on. No, I could never see a druid as a Knight for the simple fact that he / she would not be able to agree with any of the physical beliefs in place and that would translate into a problem with authority. Of course, that authority problem can stem from their neutral alignment.

Now a ranger, thats more likely than a druid. A Min / Maxer may do it for the two-weapon fighting, but a true RPer is going to struggle with wanting to give up their ranger abilites just to wear Solamnic Plate (I would rather the plate armor, but I am different). The ranger as is in the Core Rulebooks is also a bit to much into nature to take this path, in my opinion. I would, however, say that this is more feesable with the Urban Ranger from Unearthed Arcana. A character that is more accustomed to city scapes and the ways of the "civilized" world would fit better, unless most of the Rangers you have running around on your DL resemble Aragon (nobilic, no concern wether its city or not, etc). Then it would not be a problem either way.
#11
zombiegleemax
Apr 10, 2005 19:28:14
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=406945

check out my campaign at the link above!

Sorry, I got to the part where you were talking about Orcs/Dndgods/ETC in dragonlance, and then almost had a heart attack and so stopped. I mean... You might have had that response before, but oww that is so noncanon. I mean, just call it something other then Krynn. Sorry if this seems harsh and flaming.

More on topic, I don't think it would fit to have a druid Knight of the Sword. I don't see much wrong with ranger Knights of the Crown, though.
#12
zombiegleemax
Apr 16, 2005 20:52:30 I just read this and I agree that Druids can be Knights of the Sword as can Rangers tho with Druids the alignment thing is the major issue. But on the other hand.... if you do allow these 2 classes entry into the Sword Knights, then by all means balance it out and allow their evil counterparts into the Knights of Neraka. A Druid who is a Skull Knight and an evil ranger in charge of a squad of Knights would be a serious threat to anyone.
#13
zombiegleemax
Apr 24, 2005 9:34:24 I say: if your storytelling capabilities are such that you can write a believable backstory to a character, a Druid, who has chosen to be a Knight of Solamnia, and your story fits within the current rules system, then why the hell not?

Dragonlance is an amazingly adaptable fantasy world - Draconians of good disposition? Kender that feel the taste of fear? Anything's possible as long as you can write it well enough.
#14
gothic_rose
Apr 25, 2005 3:25:47 I'd have to say that it's entirely possible. BUT BUT BUT, the druid in question would NOT have prestige class levels. There's nothing saying a druid couldn't be part of the -organization-. Just, he wouldn't have the specific powers that the greater majority of the Knights have.

Same goes for Rangers. After all, Tanis was, I believe, an honorary Knight of Solamnia, wasn't he? He became part of the -organization-. He just didn't go along with their training/ways.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Charles_Phipps Mar 13, 2005 18:15:13	I was curious if it was possible to have Druids of Habbuluk as Knights of the Sword spellcasters. I think its an interesting change I think and I wonder how it'd impact a character.
#2 zombiegleemax Mar 14, 2005 10:20:18	Well, the problem with this is, druids of Habbakuk tend to be concerned with advocating their god's portfolio as embodied in Nature, whereas the Knighthood is interested in the more civilized aspects of the god. While not impossible to see, I think it ought to be rarer than hen's teeth, a druidic Knight of the Sword. It would take a very interesting character, to be able to balance the wild side of Habbakuk, with Habbakuk's more civilized side. Also, the weapon and armor restrictions on druids would severely hamper a druidic Knight's ability to access his prestige classes' features. Such a "barbaric Solamnic" might be the laughingstock of the entire Knighthood, and be barred from further advancement in his two Solamnic Knight classes. In any event, he would certainly have to deal with the social stigma of his "lifestyle choice." --in summation, I think a druidic Solamnic Knight is about as likely as a Black Robe cleric of Zivilyn NB
#3 Charles_Phipps Mar 15, 2005 17:44:23	Hmmm? How about ranger Knights of the Sword?
#4 ferratus Mar 16, 2005 16:00:38	Well, I can't see a problem with this unless we assume that the Sword Knights are members of faith of Kiri-Jolith alone. Of course... there could be rangers of Habbakuk in the Order of the Crown regardless. There is no prohibition against divine spellcasters in that Order, it just isn't a requirement. Arcane spellcasters either come to think of it... though the Knights probably would expel someone to the auxillary if they found out he was practicing it. Or would they? Dragonhelm? Cam?
#5 cam_banks Mar 16, 2005 17:20:54	Knights of the Sword gain their powers from Kiri-Jolith (DLCS, page 58, Spells per Day/Spells Known) unless they are mystics, in which case they draw upon ambient divine magic. Rose Knights are likewise beholden to Kiri-Jolith in the Age of Mortals, and possibly even in the Age of Despair (since it's said in Dragonlance Adventures that "while the Knights of the Sword are followers of Paladine, they do, nevertheless, take their powers from Kiri-Jolith and honor him as well") although Rose Knights never used to possess the clerical abilities of higher-level Sword Knights. This changed somewhat in 2nd edition, when Sword Knights could change orders once they reached 4th level in Sword Knight, but were able to wait until later. Therefore, it was possible to enter the Order of the Rose once the knight's minor spell progression kicked in. SAGA knight roles went even further and had Rose Knights improve their Spirit Code beyond that of the Sword Knight, making them even better mystics than their brothers. But anyway, this is rehashing older discussions. My gut instinct is that Kiri-Jolith has always provided the clerical powers of the Knights of Solamnia, in the form of limited foresight, healing, and prophecy. He is for all intents and purposes the knight's patron deity, even though Paladine is held above his son in terms of worship and reverence (just as any non-cleric character can worship and revere any deity). Cheers, Cam
#6 zombiegleemax Apr 04, 2005 15:38:02	Yeah, rangers and druids could be knights of the sword. or any other order, there's nothing restricting that, but it's a little unorthodox. on the other hand :thinkin:, it would give the knights very good scouts and the knight druid/rangers would already have informal combat training giving them an automatic (hopefully) ability to be able to handle themselves in most situations. The idea makes one think. Maybe the best thing to do is make a Ranger and or druid knight and see how it plays out. hehe w00t, sounds like woot... cuz it is. i had a friend who used to say that at camp. very strange fellow http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=406945 check out my campaign at the link above!
#7 true_blue Apr 04, 2005 19:24:37	Personally, I'd allow a Druid to become a Knight of Solamnia and raise up to Sword. If one can say: The Rose Knight gets his powers from Kiri-Jolith, but worships and reveres Paladine, then you can also say: The Knight of the Sword gets his spells from Habakkuk, but worships and reveres Kiri-Jolith as the "sponsor" for the Knights of the Sword, or even Rose now. I still have not decided if I would let clerics or spellcasters of other deities into the Knights of Solamnia. I used to not even contemplate it, but now I'm turning more and more to the mind of "The patron deity provides the spells and powers, while the Knight still reveres the sponsor gods of the Orders respectively". Which would still go along with the thing Cam said.. a Rose who receives his spells from Kiri-Jolith, but still reveres Paladine(Pre-5th age). If one can do it with Paladine/Kiri-Jolith, I dont see why it cant be done with Habakkuk. I would say the same thing about other good gods, but I know there will be people who would like to limit Knights to worshipers of the Triangle gods(Paladine, Kiri-Jolith, and Habakkuk) and I think that wouldnt be too bad. But I think I'll probably allow others... it adds more diversity to the Knights, and makes the Knights of the Sword/Rose not just an arm of the Kiri-Jolith faith. Also.. we may soon need to worry about if there will be worshippers of Shinare and Mishakal anyways. If there is more elaborated in the next two Knight novels, we may see those two as "patrons".
#8 Dragonhelm Apr 04, 2005 20:27:13	You know, I'm surprised I haven't responded to this thread yet. Shame on me. :P There are a few problems with having druids as Sword Knights. The key problem is that Sword Knights have to be LG, while druids all have a neutral aspect to their alignment. Knights of Solamnia are supposed to be champions of good and justice, while druids are a bit more detached from the world. Likewise, Kiri-Jolith doesn't grant spells to druids. You might house rule this and say that Habbakuk is the patron deity. Again, though, you have the alignment issue. As far as a ranger would go, you'd have an easier time of it. Again, watch your patron deity. If you house rule it, it'd work. I wouldn't recommend it, though.
#9 cam_banks Apr 04, 2005 22:50:01	Likewise, Kiri-Jolith doesn't grant spells to druids. You might house rule this and say that Habbakuk is the patron deity. Again, though, you have the alignment issue. The alignment issue really is the only major stumbling block. Kiri-Jolith could, technically, grant spells to a neutral good or lawful neutral druid, even though he's not one of the three core nature deities. It's just a matter of what that means for the druid's view of the world, and you'd have to address that in roleplay and background. But, whatever the case, he's not a lawful good character and that rules him out from taking the prestige classes. A ranger of Kiri-Jolith? Certainly possible. Common? Not really, but then neither are paladins. Cheers, Cam
#10 kalanth Apr 05, 2005 4:56:25	I have a hard time seeing this. Why would a tree hugging hippie druid want to become a Knight of Solamnia? From all that I see in the druidic nature, Solamnic Knights are the complete oposite of what they believe in. Knights use animals as work animals instead of bonding with them as friends of nature (to include dragons that work along side of the knighthood). The knights also live primarily inside of cities and druids would never do that, being more comfortable in nature (course, that is also a common problem with Druid PCs, because we know all games end up in a city for the majority of the time). Also, the knights utilize metallic arms and armor, one more thing in the belief system that Druids don't agree on. No, I could never see a druid as a Knight for the simple fact that he / she would not be able to agree with any of the physical beliefs in place and that would translate into a problem with authority. Of course, that authority problem can stem from their neutral alignment. Now a ranger, thats more likely than a druid. A Min / Maxer may do it for the two-weapon fighting, but a true RPer is going to struggle with wanting to give up their ranger abilites just to wear Solamnic Plate (I would rather the plate armor, but I am different). The ranger as is in the Core Rulebooks is also a bit to much into nature to take this path, in my opinion. I would, however, say that this is more feesable with the Urban Ranger from Unearthed Arcana. A character that is more accustomed to city scapes and the ways of the "civilized" world would fit better, unless most of the Rangers you have running around on your DL resemble Aragon (nobilic, no concern wether its city or not, etc). Then it would not be a problem either way.
#11 zombiegleemax Apr 10, 2005 19:28:14	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=406945 check out my campaign at the link above! Sorry, I got to the part where you were talking about Orcs/Dndgods/ETC in dragonlance, and then almost had a heart attack and so stopped. I mean... You might have had that response before, but oww that is so noncanon. I mean, just call it something other then Krynn. Sorry if this seems harsh and flaming. More on topic, I don't think it would fit to have a druid Knight of the Sword. I don't see much wrong with ranger Knights of the Crown, though.
#12 zombiegleemax Apr 16, 2005 20:52:30	I just read this and I agree that Druids can be Knights of the Sword as can Rangers tho with Druids the alignment thing is the major issue. But on the other hand.... if you do allow these 2 classes entry into the Sword Knights, then by all means balance it out and allow their evil counterparts into the Knights of Neraka. A Druid who is a Skull Knight and an evil ranger in charge of a squad of Knights would be a serious threat to anyone.
#13 zombiegleemax Apr 24, 2005 9:34:24	I say: if your storytelling capabilities are such that you can write a believable backstory to a character, a Druid, who has chosen to be a Knight of Solamnia, and your story fits within the current rules system, then why the hell not? Dragonlance is an amazingly adaptable fantasy world - Draconians of good disposition? Kender that feel the taste of fear? Anything's possible as long as you can write it well enough.
#14 gothic_rose Apr 25, 2005 3:25:47	I'd have to say that it's entirely possible. BUT BUT BUT, the druid in question would NOT have prestige class levels. There's nothing saying a druid couldn't be part of the -organization-. Just, he wouldn't have the specific powers that the greater majority of the Knights have. Same goes for Rangers. After all, Tanis was, I believe, an honorary Knight of Solamnia, wasn't he? He became part of the -organization-. He just didn't go along with their training/ways.