sentient undead? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

sentient undead?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
yaeri
Mar 14, 2005 10:32:49 First of all I don't know a thing about the planescape multiverse. I play Forgotten realms. But I have played the computer game planescape torment and this left me somewhat intrigued by certain issues. A thing I found interesting in the game were the sentient undead (ghouls, zombies and skeletons) living somewhere underground who had sort of a city there. For the possibility of using such a thing in my FR campaign(s) I was wondering in how far this was based on any official ruling. Are these sentient undead possible on the planes, anywhere, only in the planescape universe or was it nonsense from the game? (planescape torment)
I eagerly await your repli(es).
#2
zombiegleemax
Mar 14, 2005 11:50:48 An undead is simply a body which has died, and it's power source (positive energy) is replaced with negative energy. Entities like skeletons and zombies are usually unintelligent, having lost most or all of its personality during the transition. However, it is plausible for even them to retain intelligence and memories if they died in the correct way, or if they were revived naturally instead of by spells, or something like that. Ghouls are already intelligent. I think a society like the undead under the Silent King is quite possible under the normal rules, although not specifically referenced.
If you want a rule on this, you can look to ravenloft. I think one of the VanRichten's books mentions a rule where unintelligent undead can gain one point of INT for each century it lives as it remembers its former life. By this rule, a largish concentration of skeletons, zombies, ghouls, and the like left undisturbed for a millenia would have the average intellegence of a human city, with the ghouls being slightly smarter and probably being the leaders.
Hope this helps, and if anyone can remember what book I got this out of, please share. Now I'm curious. . .
#3
sildatorak
Mar 14, 2005 16:47:39 Screw "official." It's your world; do with it as you will. If you want all undead to be sentient, then it can be so. There is a mediocre 3rd party product out there about undead that was either authored or co-authored by Gary Gygax that has a template for sentient undead of each variety, but I don't think it is worth the cover price.

If you want to make a workable society of undead, I recommend simply changing their alignments from "always _____ evil" to usually or often _____ evil (sidenote: it is stupid that zombies and skeletons are "always neutral evil" since they are mindless), giving 0 intelligence undead an intelligence score (maybe boost their charisma, too), and establishing how such a society functions.

These changes wouldn't even need to be applied to all undead, simply to those that live within this particular society. Perhaps when an undead abbandons its evil alignment or when it awakens from mindlessness it suddenly gets the urge to go to a particular place, and that is how this underground city has arisen.

None of this is official, but then again, why bother with official since none of the exploits of any PC's (except those of game designers, perhaps) will ever be official for WotC's continuity. As long as you and your players are having fun, you're doing it right.
#4
ohtar_turinson
Mar 14, 2005 18:52:01 There's precedence for intellegent zombies and skeletons in Faerun too; if you've every played Baldur's Gate II, there's a quest to destroy the "Cult of the Eyeless." The course of that quest, you run across a village of undead 'living.' There are zombies that talk there too.

The way I would do it would be to apply the template as normal, but ignore the part where it tells you to set int to ––, wis to 10 and cha to 1. Either leave them the same or maybe apply a few penalties due to decay... -2 to INT and -2 to CHA perhaps.
#5
ripvanwormer
Mar 14, 2005 20:03:22 There are "corpse creature" and "bone creature" templates in the Book of Vile Darkness. They make sentient skeletons and zombies.

But yeah, who cares? If they didn't exist, or if you don't have the book, just take a zombie and add an intelligence score.
#6
factol_rhys_dup
Mar 15, 2005 5:44:53 If you want to incorporate a society of free-willed undead into your campaign, just look to Warcraft III or WoW.
#7
weenie
Mar 15, 2005 5:45:57
There are "corpse creature" and "bone creature" templates in the Book of Vile Darkness. They make sentient skeletons and zombies.

But yeah, who cares? If they didn't exist, or if you don't have the book, just take a zombie and add an intelligence score.

Which is what BoVD did anyway...
#8
objulen
Mar 23, 2005 4:36:35 There's also the spell that grants a mindless undead intelligence and sentience.

But, in all candor, just give skeletons and zombies intelligence scores. Their basic abilities don't change, except they can gain class levels, so the CRs won't change by much, if at all.

Alignments are generally more mutable in PS than in other campaigns, but you can toss the normal "undead are evil" out the window if you want undead society to mirror the undead society in PS:T more closely.
#9
factol_rhys_dup
Mar 23, 2005 18:37:29 I'm surprised no one's brought up Necropolitans yet. Basically, they're undead with few, if any, powers, and they're like undead civilians. With no evil alignment requirement. The template is in Libris Mortis.
#10
zombiegleemax
Mar 25, 2005 13:55:00 Combine the two. You can easily explain a society of thinking undead by having a cult of necromancers and liches using many castings of awaken undead over many, many years. Also, they could make necropolitans using the ritual mentioned in the template. Over many decades or centuries ( and a lot of finger bones), a cult could create quite a secret society. Both can be found in Libris Mortis. Add to that, the already sentient undead.
#11
sildatorak
Mar 25, 2005 15:47:27 Two questions on necropolitans: how and what?

How do they become a necropolitan and what sort of adjustments apply to the base creature? Is it just basically tacking the undead type onto a humanoid (changing hd to d12's and ditching the con mod) or is there more to it? What LA does it have?
#12
ohtar_turinson
Mar 26, 2005 10:12:23 The creation of a necropolitan is a lot like crucifixiction... except you nail their hands over their heads on a pole. There is a ritual at the same time by clerics of "evil powers and gods" and as the person who volunteered dies, they are transformed and linked to the negative energy plane.

Pretty unpleasent stuff- the resulting undead is any alignment, is essentially the same, except for a few things to make turning and controling them harder... and they heal naturally. No level adjustment.

All and all, not on my list of "Good ideas" or "good monsters."
#13
factol_rhys_dup
Mar 27, 2005 13:30:11 The vicious ritual is not entirely necessary. As DM, it's all in your purview to remove that and just use the necropolitan template as an easy way to "undeadify" any humanoid creature without assigning it the powers and abilities of another recognizable undead creature.
#14
weenie
Mar 31, 2005 17:08:56 Speaking of Necropolitans... did those of you who know DC's/Gaiman's "Sandman" notice the resemblance between the Libris Mortis Necropolitans and the denizens of the Litharge Necropolis described in Sandman 55 (World's End)?

Even the illustration in Libris Mortis looks a little like master Klaproth from the comic...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 yaeri Mar 14, 2005 10:32:49	First of all I don't know a thing about the planescape multiverse. I play Forgotten realms. But I have played the computer game planescape torment and this left me somewhat intrigued by certain issues. A thing I found interesting in the game were the sentient undead (ghouls, zombies and skeletons) living somewhere underground who had sort of a city there. For the possibility of using such a thing in my FR campaign(s) I was wondering in how far this was based on any official ruling. Are these sentient undead possible on the planes, anywhere, only in the planescape universe or was it nonsense from the game? (planescape torment) I eagerly await your repli(es).
#2 zombiegleemax Mar 14, 2005 11:50:48	An undead is simply a body which has died, and it's power source (positive energy) is replaced with negative energy. Entities like skeletons and zombies are usually unintelligent, having lost most or all of its personality during the transition. However, it is plausible for even them to retain intelligence and memories if they died in the correct way, or if they were revived naturally instead of by spells, or something like that. Ghouls are already intelligent. I think a society like the undead under the Silent King is quite possible under the normal rules, although not specifically referenced. If you want a rule on this, you can look to ravenloft. I think one of the VanRichten's books mentions a rule where unintelligent undead can gain one point of INT for each century it lives as it remembers its former life. By this rule, a largish concentration of skeletons, zombies, ghouls, and the like left undisturbed for a millenia would have the average intellegence of a human city, with the ghouls being slightly smarter and probably being the leaders. Hope this helps, and if anyone can remember what book I got this out of, please share. Now I'm curious. . .
#3 sildatorak Mar 14, 2005 16:47:39	Screw "official." It's your world; do with it as you will. If you want all undead to be sentient, then it can be so. There is a mediocre 3rd party product out there about undead that was either authored or co-authored by Gary Gygax that has a template for sentient undead of each variety, but I don't think it is worth the cover price. If you want to make a workable society of undead, I recommend simply changing their alignments from "always _____ evil" to usually or often _____ evil (sidenote: it is stupid that zombies and skeletons are "always neutral evil" since they are mindless), giving 0 intelligence undead an intelligence score (maybe boost their charisma, too), and establishing how such a society functions. These changes wouldn't even need to be applied to all undead, simply to those that live within this particular society. Perhaps when an undead abbandons its evil alignment or when it awakens from mindlessness it suddenly gets the urge to go to a particular place, and that is how this underground city has arisen. None of this is official, but then again, why bother with official since none of the exploits of any PC's (except those of game designers, perhaps) will ever be official for WotC's continuity. As long as you and your players are having fun, you're doing it right.
#4 ohtar_turinson Mar 14, 2005 18:52:01	There's precedence for intellegent zombies and skeletons in Faerun too; if you've every played Baldur's Gate II, there's a quest to destroy the "Cult of the Eyeless." The course of that quest, you run across a village of undead 'living.' There are zombies that talk there too. The way I would do it would be to apply the template as normal, but ignore the part where it tells you to set int to ––, wis to 10 and cha to 1. Either leave them the same or maybe apply a few penalties due to decay... -2 to INT and -2 to CHA perhaps.
#5 ripvanwormer Mar 14, 2005 20:03:22	There are "corpse creature" and "bone creature" templates in the Book of Vile Darkness. They make sentient skeletons and zombies. But yeah, who cares? If they didn't exist, or if you don't have the book, just take a zombie and add an intelligence score.
#6 factol_rhys_dup Mar 15, 2005 5:44:53	If you want to incorporate a society of free-willed undead into your campaign, just look to Warcraft III or WoW.
#7 weenie Mar 15, 2005 5:45:57	There are "corpse creature" and "bone creature" templates in the Book of Vile Darkness. They make sentient skeletons and zombies. But yeah, who cares? If they didn't exist, or if you don't have the book, just take a zombie and add an intelligence score. Which is what BoVD did anyway...
#8 objulen Mar 23, 2005 4:36:35	There's also the spell that grants a mindless undead intelligence and sentience. But, in all candor, just give skeletons and zombies intelligence scores. Their basic abilities don't change, except they can gain class levels, so the CRs won't change by much, if at all. Alignments are generally more mutable in PS than in other campaigns, but you can toss the normal "undead are evil" out the window if you want undead society to mirror the undead society in PS:T more closely.
#9 factol_rhys_dup Mar 23, 2005 18:37:29	I'm surprised no one's brought up Necropolitans yet. Basically, they're undead with few, if any, powers, and they're like undead civilians. With no evil alignment requirement. The template is in Libris Mortis.
#10 zombiegleemax Mar 25, 2005 13:55:00	Combine the two. You can easily explain a society of thinking undead by having a cult of necromancers and liches using many castings of awaken undead over many, many years. Also, they could make necropolitans using the ritual mentioned in the template. Over many decades or centuries ( and a lot of finger bones), a cult could create quite a secret society. Both can be found in Libris Mortis. Add to that, the already sentient undead.
#11 sildatorak Mar 25, 2005 15:47:27	Two questions on necropolitans: how and what? How do they become a necropolitan and what sort of adjustments apply to the base creature? Is it just basically tacking the undead type onto a humanoid (changing hd to d12's and ditching the con mod) or is there more to it? What LA does it have?
#12 ohtar_turinson Mar 26, 2005 10:12:23	The creation of a necropolitan is a lot like crucifixiction... except you nail their hands over their heads on a pole. There is a ritual at the same time by clerics of "evil powers and gods" and as the person who volunteered dies, they are transformed and linked to the negative energy plane. Pretty unpleasent stuff- the resulting undead is any alignment, is essentially the same, except for a few things to make turning and controling them harder... and they heal naturally. No level adjustment. All and all, not on my list of "Good ideas" or "good monsters."
#13 factol_rhys_dup Mar 27, 2005 13:30:11	The vicious ritual is not entirely necessary. As DM, it's all in your purview to remove that and just use the necropolitan template as an easy way to "undeadify" any humanoid creature without assigning it the powers and abilities of another recognizable undead creature.
#14 weenie Mar 31, 2005 17:08:56	Speaking of Necropolitans... did those of you who know DC's/Gaiman's "Sandman" notice the resemblance between the Libris Mortis Necropolitans and the denizens of the Litharge Necropolis described in Sandman 55 (World's End)? Even the illustration in Libris Mortis looks a little like master Klaproth from the comic...