My question is this: Who raised the first Immortal to Immortality? Was it a pantheon of Mystaran gods, who then vanished for other cosmologies? Was the first Immortal self-Immortalized, using rituals now long-forgotten? How did the ball get rolling.
Forgive my Mystaran ignorance if this has been answered canonically; I only own the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, and no other Mystaran product.
--kind of interested in a canonical answer, if possible NB
As far as I can make out from both WotI and the Gold box, the first immortals were probably raised by the Old Ones, these being the higher level of being that some of the more powerful immortals aspire to becoming, as an experiment to increase their own numbers (at least this is what the Immortals themselves believe).
--in which case, the question is begged, "Who created the Old Ones?" NB
So...are the Old Ones gods, or merely a higher form of Immortal?
--in which case, the question is begged, "Who created the Old Ones?" NB
That is a good question and one that is dodged in canon as far as I can tell. Very little is known about the Old Ones, even the Imorrtals know little to nothing about them. I have always interpreted the Old Ones to be more along the lines of gods, rather than advanced Immortals, and as gods that have abandoned their followers and retreated to the Vortex
That is a good question and one that is dodged in canon as far as I can tell. Very little is known about the Old Ones, even the Imorrtals know little to nothing about them. I have always interpreted the Old Ones to be more along the lines of gods, rather than advanced Immortals, and as gods that have abandoned their followers and retreated to the Vortex
So, your interpretation is that the Mystaran gods got tired of ruling, handed it all over to the Immortals, and ran off to the Vortex?
--hmmm, I think I prefer the Old Ones to be advanced Immortals, of unknown origin NB
These first Immortals tend to be more of the "primordial" type: Terra, Thanatos, etc... The Old Ones for the most part, have ignored Mystara with few exceptions (rumors of some of the Northern Reaches Immortals actually being disguised Old Ones)
In my campaign, there is a small group of Druids (based on the Roman view of Celtic Druids) that still worship some Old Ones. Because of this, they are considered heretics and very dangerous to the world order. They do possess some very powerful magic from the remnents of their patrons' power (channeled through standing stones).
I always wished that the Old Ones would have been given a little more detail in the canon sources, but the lack of detail gives you a lot of room to develope them without creating conflicts.
The box states that the Old Ones would be unplayable in game terms, being so powerful, and that if a PC achieves the status of Old One he has reached the end of the game.
There is a hint that there might indeed be a Creator being behind the Old Ones - but it is left to the DM's discretion, and there is no mechanism for introducing this into a campaign.
D&D Doesn't tell you much about OOs motives. Old Immortal set says they merely created the universe and separated it from the Sixth Dimension where they live using the Barrier. There they wait and watch the Immortals' actions, hoping some of them will eventually elevate above the others and join their ranks. Old Immortal set even speculates there might be something ABOVE the Old Ones, somebody else who watches and waits...
IMVHO the Multiverse is an experiment of the Old Ones. They will NEVER directly intervene in this experiment in order not to alter its outcome (like all good scientists and anthropologists do). The pourpose of the experiment is trying to create a balanced universe where all the forces can co-exist and the life-forces can improve their status.
This Multiverse is not the first attempt at this experiment, and there might be others in the future if the Immortals screw it enough.
The First Generation Immortals (as I call Thanatos, Odin, Ixion, etc... - please NOTE that Terra DOESN'T belong to this cathegory!) are older than any other Mystaran deities, but they're not Old Ones. they're prolly mortals who discovered the first path to Immortality or they might be immortal creatures created by the Old Ones at the beginning of times to reign over the Multiverse. Many more hypothesis may be put forward: canon sourcebooks don't clear this issue, so it's a matter of one's campaign.
As for the difference between Immortals and Gods: in Mystara they're ONE and THE SAME. If you wanna put Ixion vs Bane for example, I might respectfully say they're equal in power. The fact an immortal has had a mortal life doesn't mean he's a wuss (there are many deities in other settings who were mortals before becoming gods, and nobody ever questioned their godhood!)! They're not comparable to Avangions or Dragon Kings: they're MUCH MORE powerful than them! IF you kill an avangion, he's dead! If you kill an immortal, he can rise again! It's very difficult to kill one, as much as it is difficult to become one!
And besides, any Immortal can create whole new species, move stellar bodies and create alternate planes of reality, so these are powers that exceed by far those of any "mortal" creature!
Immortals ARE deities, period.
The First Generation Immortals (as I call Thanatos, Odin, Ixion, etc... - please NOTE that Terra DOESN'T belong to this cathegory!) are older than any other Mystaran deities, but they're not Old Ones. they're prolly mortals who discovered the first path to Immortality or they might be immortal creatures created by the Old Ones at the beginning of times to reign over the Multiverse. Many more hypothesis may be put forward: canon sourcebooks don't clear this issue, so it's a matter of one's campaign.
Note that it is not certain that they ever where mortals.
As for the difference between Immortals and Gods: in Mystara they're ONE and THE SAME. If you wanna put Ixion vs Bane for example, I might respectfully say they're equal in power.
Indeed, there are different opinions on the topic, and some people are pretty adamant on the fact that Immortals and Powers/Gods are different. IMO, the only difference between Immortals and Gods is that Immortals *usually* are mortals who ascended to powerhood, while Gods are *usually* born/created into it.
Any other difference can be attributed to mere differences in the rule set (i.e., Immortals are the OD&D way to describe powers, and Gods are the AD&D way).
Indeed, in AD&D Ixion simply *is* a Greater Power (see Warriors of Heaven, for example). If you were playing Forgotten Realms in OD&D, you would have to cast Bane as an high-level Immortal.
Compared to the gods of FR or GH the Immortals are definitely equals in power and scope, but it isn't important, 'cause the cosmologies of FR and GH (exctly alike) are different from the cosmology of Mystara, that's all.
As far as the concern for where the first ones came from, it is real easy to claim old ones did it. There is, however, a large amount of info on the fact that an immortal doesn't NEED a sponsor to become one. In the case of time immortals this is easy to assume they sponsored themselves. There are just as many other examples of beings becoming immortal simply through the use of high level magics or science (Rad, Rafiel, Benekander). It could be assumed that any mortal who adheres to the principles of a sphere may achieve immortality in that sphere simply through (and wanting for a better term) osmosis.
On the other hand, PC1 gives a nice detail of the creation according to fairies (dm's booklet page23). Something to the effect that the fairies were originally "beings of the former age-immortals in their own right". Immortals in their own right but not immortals by title. Then those who were neutral in the war between life and chaos became the fairies. It is assumed that those that fought on the side of life became the immortals in the spheres of matter, thought, time, and energy; while those who fought on the side of chaos became the immortals of entropy. Of course "beings of the former age" leaves alot to be contemplated on.
Earth is pretty much abandoned because no one prays to Odin or Loki (AFAIK), but we developed science. Mystara developed Magic instead.
But no, nothing official exists to explain these things... we can just make them up, as I just did :P
Both Dieties and Immortals can recieve power from followers.
Only Immortals can recieve power from one of the five Spheres of Power.
When a Diety loses its followers in the AD&D multiverse, it dies, and its body is used as building material by the Githyanki in the Astral Plane.
When an Immortal loses all its followers, it still lives & can be revived by future worshipers.
Both can probably escape their fates by becoming mortal just before their last follower dies; but Immortals know the way back to Power; Dieties might not...
- First of all, gods do not exist in Mystara, and have no place in Mystara.
- Immortals are however Mystara's equivalent to gods.
- If you must try to compare gods and Immortals, you will likely find that they are extremely similar. There are certainly more similarities than differences. This all stems from the simple fact that Mystara has Immortals instead of gods.
- Immortals do "fade" if they run out of followers. (However, this rule may have been added in Wrath of the Immortals.)
- The existence of the Old Ones is never officially confirmed, but instead is deliberately left vague.
- The Old Ones do not compare to deities in any way whatsoever. Again, if you must compare campaign settings, then the Old Ones would fit in as something as far removed from gods as gods are from mortals. This is how they are described in Mystaran terms, remembering that Immortals and gods are similar.
That's all I have time to write for now.
Well, since the creators of Mystara were named after old, real life, Earth pantheons, I prefer to think that these Gods create worlds and then leave them so they can grow on their own.
My take on this is that one of Mystara's defining characteristics, as a world, is that it is in a separate multiverse but the borders are weak, so that ideas from other planes can "leak" in and take separate forms. So you have Immortals from the Norse pantheon of Earth alongside Mystara-specific Immortals, and you have humanoid Immortals modelled on the humanoid gods and demons of other settings (the Master set had the Wand of Orcus, and GAZ 10 listed several Deities and Demigods humanoids as alternate names for its pantheon), and you have lots of different cultures jammed up against each other all influenced by slightly different real-Earth sources. And it's especially easy for travellers from the Dimension of Myth to break through to Mystara, which explains why the Ambreville's are here instead of in Greyhawk. (However, certain concepts from Greyhawk have bled through into Mystara as well, which is why both Greyhawk and Mystara have a Blackmoor and an orcish nation of Thar.)
So the Earth-descended Immortals are a consequence of the fragility of the universe, not of the Immortals themselves.
--just wondering NB
If you want to look strictly at a power list they will be comparable with gods of other realms. However, they do not work the same and there are many examples of high level immortals with few to no followers while some who have nations are still mid-level. The confusion is in the fact that immortals/gods like to use followers and pawns to do their dirty work. They cannot interfere directly so they use go-betweens. The more you have the more you can do and succeed at. This is a political power not a direct personal power. Personal power is gained through the successful completion of plots and strokes, and advancing the cause of your sphere of influence.
The part in WotI that refers to the fading when there are no followers is more of a safety feature. He doesn't die or lose levels just fades to a faint life force. Once restored by a single follower he would have full powers. If you have no followers you have no political power (no pawns) on Mystara with which to advance plots. So you hibernate in the hope that you will be restored later. Most of the immortals have sponsors and/or proteges and would take an interest in helping a fading immortal. If you have sponsored an immortal wouldn't they want to see you alive and well since you are their protection from higher ranked immortals?
The existence of the Old Ones is never officially confirmed, but instead is deliberately left vague.
Just a point of clarification here, in WotI, it is stated explicitly that the Old Ones do exist- in the history, it is noted that an Old One moved the Nucleus of the Spheres to its current location, and an Old One shows up to punish Rad during the climax.
I think you guys are missing the point here. Immortals ARE NOT gods. If we were simply talking about St. Cuthbert or Talos this would be an easy assumption to make and follow. In those worlds the heroes will never becomes gods, there are no set paths to immortality.
Not entirely true. St. Cuthbert himself is actually a former mortal who was elevated to God status, as is Vecna. On Toril, we've got Mystra, Finder Wyvernspur, and Cyric- all of whom were mortals once- as was the Red Knight, as I recall.
There also were "rules" in the 2nd Edition Deities and Demigods book about elevating mortal heroes to godhood.
In Mystara there are. We are not talking about some beings so removed from mortals that there is no comparison. I invite you to compare an OD&D level 36 character with the powers of a level 1 Immortal initiate. They are not so far removed as everyone likes to think. THAT'S the point. They are PCs.
At the same time, compare a 36th level Immortal with a 36th level mortal, and I think you'll find a gap quite comparable to the difference between a demigod and a Greater god.
They DO NOT need followers. They progress differently than other gods (until the Time of Troubles the Faerun Gods were not bound to their followers either).
Very true. Both "need followers" rules (post-TT Faerun and WotI) came about after the fact, for reasons that quite escape me.
The part in WotI that refers to the fading when there are no followers is more of a safety feature. He doesn't die or lose levels just fades to a faint life force. Once restored by a single follower he would have full powers.
Which is quite similar to the way gods work in Faerun, at least. Their "corpses" remain on the Astral Plane, but can (and have been) resurrected at times. Bane is a perfect example of a "dead" god restored to life.
Comparing a level 36 immortal with a level 36mortal is like comparing a level 1 mortal and a level 36 mortal. I think we will all agree there is a gap. This is the point of power levels is it not? But comparing the two levels around the transition gives us a better insight that the immortals were a continuation of character levels.
I personally dont see the need to find a new classification in AD&D terminology. The only real difference even in those books between the classifications was the powers they get on their home plane. I believe those are detailed for Immortals as well in the WotI. There is just as much difference in gods and immortals as there is similarity. None of the gods I checked were immediately immune to mortal magic. High character classes, low saving throws, magic resistance and artifacts made it difficult for a mage to hurt a god but it is possible in most cases. Immortals are immune, period! Get you an immortal artifact or get you gone. On the other hand, alot of gods are almost impossible to hit and damage with weapons, not so with immortals.
All of this is really moot though if your characters never become immortals. Divine beings are just that if thats all they are used for. when you introduce players as immortals, these differences become much more important, and even then only if they outgrow thier britches and try to take on gods from other worlds. (what plot on Mystara would that advance anyways? and dont we already have too many divine beings interested in this world?)
Later, AD&D campaigns maintained the concept of "Gods", but OD&D, which was now aimed at a younger crowd, switched to "Immortals", despite the fact that most of their names were still based on known Gods of Earth.
So, under this perspective, I think that Immortals and Gods are the exact same thing, but TSR, hounded by religious zealots, decided to make the introductory products more "kid-friendly" so not to annoy/insult their parents.
At the same time, compare a 36th level Immortal with a 36th level mortal, and I think you'll find a gap quite comparable to the difference between a demigod and a Greater god.
Note that according to the Mystara 3E conversions, a Level 36 mortal in OD&D is equivalent to Level 25 in 3E. I haven't read the Epic Level Handbook, but I get the impression "demigod" isn't that far off.
According to these rules, Immortals and Deities have differing good and bad points, but are fairly similar. The only real difference is in way one is "recruited": In L&L, deification results from people believing you to be divine (Planescape's Perception alters Realty), or as a "bonus gift" from a Deity who just happens to feel it's a good idea at the time. In WotI/Gold Box, Immortals actively seek out candidates, and turn them into Immortals using the power gained from one of the Spheres.
Just a point of clarification here, in WotI, it is stated explicitly that the Old Ones do exist- in the history, it is noted that an Old One moved the Nucleus of the Spheres to its current location, and an Old One shows up to punish Rad during the climax.
I hadn't missed that, but I didn't have time to expand on it before I had to leave for Tokyo. :P
What I really wanted to say is that they weren't officially confirmed in the first place (the gold box), but later authors seemed to take the subtle hints as to their existence as simple fact.
Personally I thought this was a bit of a shame. It was great having the Old Ones just a name, about which there was almost no information and certainly no corroborating evidnce. The explicit references in Wrath were one of the low points of that product, in my opinion. Aside from anything else, it doesn't make sense. Old Ones are supposed to be so mysterious that the Immortals aren't even sure of their existence, so why would they be tampering with the prime plane like that?
Of course, Bruce Heard later expanded on the Old Ones rather a lot more with his Star of Vanya articles, but they at least had some rationale behind the Old Ones' involvement.
Very true. Both "need followers" rules (post-TT Faerun and WotI) came about after the fact, for reasons that quite escape me.
It's not exactly relevant here, but if you want to see why the fading reason is fun, read Small Gods by Terry Pratchett. :D
Let us not forget that Hel is also one of the immortals who does not remember her mortal existence - if she ever had any. She and Odin are older than they remember and seem to battle each other in eternity :D
Earth is pretty much abandoned because no one prays to Odin or Loki (AFAIK), but we developed science. Mystara developed Magic instead.
Well, worshipping the Norse immortals became a state religion in Denmark only last year (now they don't pay taxes because they are an official church). They worship the Norse gods on a regular basis:
http://www.fornsidr.dk/index_uk.html
:D
As for the "Mystara developed magic instead", Blackmoor shifted from magic to technology AFAIK and in Gaz3 the Immortal Khoronus says, that sooner or later man will abandon the immortals and turn to technology once more...
:-) Jesper
What I really wanted to say is that they weren't officially confirmed in the first place (the gold box), but later authors seemed to take the subtle hints as to their existence as simple fact.
Even in the gold box their existence is a simple fact:
"Someone must have been here before, they reason. Someone or some group, or perhaps some thing, made all of this . The Immortals call them the Old Ones - beings to whom even the power of the Immortals is but a drop in an ocean.
The Immortals are correct. With such power, the Old Ones knew that the Immortals would come." etc. etc.
My theory is that the Old Ones created the multiverse, and that the first Immortals ("Coming from a place now lost in the mist of forgotten time and memory..") was the personification of primeval fundamental forces:
Light= Solarios (Ixion, Pyro)
Darkness= Night (Old Nick, Nyx), "male aspect" as in the gold box, IM1, IM2 version (maybe a Immortal's first incarnation)
Matter= Terra (Djaea, Mother Earth) as in the gold box version
Time= Protius (Old Man of the Sea) as in the HW version
Life= Odin
Death= Hel
Love= Valerias
Hate= Thanatos
As for the "Mystara developed magic instead", Blackmoor shifted from magic to technology AFAIK and in Gaz3 the Immortal Khoronus says, that sooner or later man will abandon the immortals and turn to technology once more...
I got the impression that that was due to the Nucleus draining off the magical energy from Mystara, and this probably wouldn't happen post-WotI as it was changed to draw negative energy (the source of Entropy's power). To me this threw up the possibility of a decline in the number and power of undead etc over time, similar to the decline in magic as shown in GAZ3. But I never worked it out as it wasn't really relevant to the campaigns I've run.
I got the impression that that was due to the Nucleus draining off the magical energy from Mystara, and this probably wouldn't happen post-WotI as it was changed to draw negative energy (the source of Entropy's power). To me this threw up the possibility of a decline in the number and power of undead etc over time, similar to the decline in magic as shown in GAZ3. But I never worked it out as it wasn't really relevant to the campaigns I've run.
Hmm - I think I just figured out how to make this all end.
There's a WotI scale invasion of the undead, led by Hel and Thanatos, who seek to capture the Nucleus of the Spheres and halt the drain in their powers. It's defeated, and shortly afterward the Shadow Elves finally complete the Chamber of the Spheres, which drains magic as before. So now both magic and death are being drained.
So Entropy and Energy make a deal, and alter the two Thingies of the Spheres to feed into each other and put them on a cycle, so for a decade the undead get stronger as magic gets weaker, and then it reverses.
What do you think, sirs?
shortly afterward the Shadow Elves finally complete the Chamber of the Spheres, which drains magic as before.
Well the magic drain is a result of a curse or some such by non-energy immortals and really has nothing to do with what the Chamber of the Spheres and the Nucleus of the Spheres produces (Radiance).
So if anything, the completion of the CoS would increase Radiance and thereby the Radiance powers (and afflictions) of shadow elves and Glantrian Radiance users.
That's my opinion anyway.
:-) Jesper
Well, worshipping the Norse immortals became a state religion in Denmark only last year (now they don't pay taxes because they are an official church). They worship the Norse gods on a regular basis:
http://www.fornsidr.dk/index_uk.html
:D
I was not aware of that, but it still doesn't make it a significant event. For the most part, old Pantheons have pretty much been forgotten, ignored, or neglected.
As for the "Mystara developed magic instead", Blackmoor shifted from magic to technology AFAIK and in Gaz3 the Immortal Khoronus says, that sooner or later man will abandon the immortals and turn to technology once more...
I was under the impression that Mystara treated science like Earth treats the "Occult". For instance, if you try to explore anything considered "occult", like Tarot reading, you don't really know how it works, of if it actually works. In Mystara, they probably have the same attitude towards, say, a tv.
Gods are the superpower beings running around causing trouble and demanding worship. Immortals are the superpower beings running around causing trouble and only occasionally demanding worship.