Just in case you didn't read the other thread, this will be a supplement aimed at the (gasp!) Inner Planes of Athas, the Gray, the Black, and a few other minor realms that you may or may not have heard of. There will be: new spells, new monsters, new prestige classes, new locations, and detailed description of each plane (I'm thinking ten pages or so for each one).
So, without tainting the idea pool, what would you like to see or hear more about?
But the Grey and the Hollow cry out for further treatment! Do something evocative with both planes; I'm quite certain there's more to the Hollow, in particular, than a mere holding cell for Rajaat. Remember, Rajaat could access at least some of his abilities whilst imprisoned, so logically, he might have experimented with the Hollow, testing the limits of his prison...
--who knows how Rajaat tinkered with the Hollow in an attempt to escape? NB
Letsee, if you're asking me, I'd want to see some of the personalities of the planes, such as the personal histories & goals of say the elemental lords, maybe some of their agents and even rivals. Maybe beings that aren't connected to the lords, but are instead rivals that share the same plane.
Yeah, some epic-level planar NPCs would be nice. Just remember to make them detached and unable to focus on the same scale of time that Material Plane creatures react on.
--established 2e canon says this is a main reason why elementals didn't get involved in Athas' decline NB
I was planning on detailing the Lords, but not statting them out. I was also going to include their Champions (or the highest ranking champ they have, as some would likely have more than one). Jinking their reaction timing isn't something I had thought of - good point.
I was definitely going to flesh out the Black, but I was going to do little to flesh out the Hollow. I figure the Black around the Hollow is influenced by Rajaat, but the Hollow was specifically constructed by Nibenay to hold him - there's precious little to tell, I would think.
I hadn't thought of rivals on the same plane - that's good and I'll definitely use it.
it could lead to someone messing with the sunlight, and hence Sadira's powers (i've said too much, they're coming for me now! lol) Ok what do you think?? Any thought on that??? i know I get more hooked on adventure hooks than anything else.. but you are detailing an area that could be very adventuresome, and with details on elemental lords and such, I figure, why not??I refuse to believe that they simply sit arround all day and trade for obsidian spheres..
Hmmmmmmm, maybe those obsidian spheres each have little monsters & spells inside that they use for "dueling"...(proceeds to run for the nearest portal to escape the mob with pitchforks & torches) :evillaugh
:OMG! 
Terminus Vortexa casts Hellball and Damnation on Nightdruid!!!anyways, I just had a really bizarre thought (no, not about trading card games...). I was thinking about the nature of the Hallow, and the thousands upon thousands of souls that were killed to keep Rajaat imprisoned. I wonder (DS inexperience talking here) if some of those spirits manage to survive. Perhaps the Hallow is a representation of Athas, and the souls killed live out lives in that world, under Rajaat's rule. Or some survive to be tested by Rajaat somehow, to find something he needs to escape or restore Athas. Anyways, just me babbling some more
--this effect is described in great detail in The Cerulean Storm, Prism Pentad Book V NB
The Hollow is technically infinite. However, because it is nothingness, at the same time, anyone who occupies it fills it completely.
--this effect is described in great detail in The Cerulean Storm, Prism Pentad Book V NB
Ok, I buy it ;) Was just tossing an idea out there.
There will be: new spells, new monsters, new prestige classes, new locations, and detailed description of each plane (I'm thinking ten pages or so for each one).
So, without tainting the idea pool, what would you like to see or hear more about?
We (at least I) also want:
- new Psionic Powers
- panoramic drawings of the planes, not necessary for the BLACK.
- magic items
- special materials
- A discussion on the relationship between Spirits of the Land and the Elements to which they are connected (Do they have pacts with the Elemental Lords? Do the Lords even know of the Spirits?).
- Some VIPs from The Gray: powerful souls that actively resist dissolution (like Kalak)
- Rules for losing your sense of self in the Gray.
- Rules for loosing your sanity in the Black.
(it's always in the last place you would think of putting it) - I'll think of something else eventually...
Hmmmmmmm, maybe those obsidian spheres each have little monsters & spells inside that they use for "dueling"...(proceeds to run for the nearest portal to escape the mob with pitchforks & torches) :evillaugh
Ok....
I *did* like you.
:D
Perhaps the exterior surface of the Hollow is the knitted together souls of those who were used to power the spell? I really like the idea of a detailed Hollow, but that's really something that should be left up to individual GMs. In this case, I'd say detailing the area around the Hollow would be perfectly fine. Detailing the area within would be a mistake.
Well, technically it is detached, sorta.
I mean, as far as I can figure out, isn't the Hollow just the huge obsidian orb in the middle of Ur Draxa that is holding Rajaat's remains?
I remember the begining of the PP5 and a one of the shadow giants coming to check him out and a bony finger sliding across the surface of what I thought was the hollow.
I could be mistaken though. Maybe the surface of the obsidian orb is body is in links to the blank in some way like all obsidian does, and an exact mirror image of the same orb is within the Black and that is what contains his essence, because I know they are suppose to be seperate.
Something that has just bugging me recently...
--the Ur Draxan sphere merely served as a doorway into the Hollow, which Borys kept locked NB
No, the Hollow is NOT the obisidian sphere. The obsidian sphere in the center of Ur Draxa was merely a gateway into the Hollow. The Hollow is its own seperate reality. However, because it is pure nothingness, whatever is inside fills it completely, despite being infinite. Thus, Rajaat had no choice but to be pressed up against the only portal back to the rest of the Athasian multiverse.
--the Ur Draxan sphere merely served as a doorway into the Hollow, which Borys kept locked NB
Ok, that makes much more sense. Not sure why I didn't realize that earlier. That part of PP5 always bugged me after reading it.
But I also could have sworn that his essence was stored somewhere else, and that was the Hollow, and I assume that is why it took him a while to animate, because his remains as well as his essence is suppose to be seperate.
Or maybe I am remembering it wrong and that was what happened at the end of PP5 (remains in the lava the Cerulean Storm is constantly beating down on and his essence in the Hollow again).
Well, technically it is detached, sorta.
I mean, as far as I can figure out, isn't the Hollow just the huge obsidian orb in the middle of Ur Draxa that is holding Rajaat's remains?
I remember the begining of the PP5 and a one of the shadow giants coming to check him out and a bony finger sliding across the surface of what I thought was the hollow.
I could be mistaken though. Maybe the surface of the obsidian orb is body is in links to the blank in some way like all obsidian does, and an exact mirror image of the same orb is within the Black and that is what contains his essence, because I know they are suppose to be seperate.
Something that has just bugging me recently...
Now the spell used to capture Rajaat is starting to sound like a combo version of both Lemund's secret chest, and Magic Jar... Putting it that way, it doesn't sound so complicated at all.. give it a few twists.. and wham, you're done
let's see that 10th level spell, and let's see how the use of the dark lense altered the spell then our questions will be answered in ful...And yeah, I do believe his body was on athas, and his essence was in the hollow... (which makes sense, because then he wouldn't have access to his psionic powers, since both body and mind and spirit need to be connected, and being in the hollow would remove him from the black, which he would otherwise have been able to use as a powersource for magical spells, even as a disembodied spirit.. so.. good choice of a prison on thier part).
Ok....
I *did* like you.
:D
What?? Guess you'll poopoo my suggestion to have the Hollow be contained in a little hand-held pyramid owned by a little boy with a funky hairdo who can call Rajaah-oh to fight his battles with his deck of obsidean orbs?
What?? Guess you'll poopoo my suggestion to have the Hollow be contained in a little hand-held pyramid owned by a little boy with a funky hairdo who can call Rajaah-oh to fight his battles with his deck of obsidean orbs?
You mean you had that suggestion too????
You mean you had that suggestion too????
You'd be suprised with what you come up with after a few jello minis... :D
You'd be suprised with what you come up with after a few jello minis... :D
there's nothing like a good sugar rush to get the creative juices flowing
of course, I prefer twinkies myself.. but those cadburry easter eggs??? way too much!! that's like being a defiler when it comes to sugar, so much sweetness it's sick!!You'd be suprised with what you come up with after a few jello minis... :D
Damn, those things have to be finely aged by now, hand me a few.
Dawn rocks!
What do the elementals eat?? do they eat?? could they have something there with mystic properties that is beneficial to the PC's?? (elemental Water: Jello mini's that restore HP Elemental Fire: Jalapenos that remove disease elemental Earth... ) It risks being comical, but if done right, it could be a way to add some spice to the elemental planes (no pun intended :P) I think earth elemental type creatures that feed on gems is appropriate, and if they feed, why not the others?? (Different density water might be just what the elementals of that plane enjoy (jello minis!!) :D )Ok, enough outta me, but still, joking aside, the concept of food, or other day to day stuff on those planes could be very interesting.. what do they build out of ? how do they build?? Are structures on the plane of water made of ice?? or just hard water?? :P the plane of Air could make places out of clouds
why not eh??Stay on target, you two.
Sorry, was just impacting on the surface there a few times...
Sorry, was just impacting on the surface there a few times...
My thoughts EXACTLY... :evillaugh
Stay on target, you two.
Its no good...I can't maneuver!
Heh, anyways, howabout a demiplane for an ancient halfling whose been busy lifeshaping critters to survive in an elemental environment?
Its no good...I can't maneuver!
I thought the line was "I can't shake him..aaaaaaaaahhh BOOM!" :P
Heh, anyways, howabout a demiplane for an ancient halfling whose been busy lifeshaping critters to survive in an elemental environment?
Thats a good idea. Some sort of mad halfling life shaper.
I thought the line was "I can't shake him..aaaaaaaaahhh BOOM!" :P
That's about 3 or 4 lines later...:D
Thats a good idea. Some sort of mad halfling life shaper.
That's the idea...someone so devorced from Athas that (s)he is now completely insane and has no interest beyond the elemental planes. Probably danged powerful, too.
Which would you prefer: I flesh out these "demiplanes" or I put rules in place that allow people to make their own?
Both, use sidebars for the latter.
Which would you prefer: I flesh out these "demiplanes" or I put rules in place that allow people to make their own?
I'd flesh out the demiplanes. Rules "how" can be justified by the individual DM.
one thing i wanna gotta pipe in on, the whole athas not connected to the great wheel thing. dregoth's gotta been visiting other prime material worlds where gods exist and so forth. so whateveer cosmology is adopted if the decision is made to completely drop 2e planar structure, there's gotta be outer planes that touch on other prime worlds for there to be other primes with gods. alternately have it that dregoth's gate is a doorway not into other planes, but other cosmologies and realities where gods can exist.
I was definitely going to flesh out the Black, but I was going to do little to flesh out the Hollow. I figure the Black around the Hollow is influenced by Rajaat, but the Hollow was specifically constructed by Nibenay to hold him - there's precious little to tell, I would think.
Was it actually stated anywhere that Nib created the Hollow, and if so where?
Or is this something you are adding in from your own designs?
I actually liked the idea of Daskinor creating it, or at least helping in create it, it's why he's so freaking looney now, trying to create a plane of existence that is infinite yet is pure nothingness, that would drive me bonkers.
I remember this subject coming up before anyways.
Was it actually stated anywhere that Nib created the Hollow, and if so where?
Or is this something you are adding in from your own designs?
I actually liked the idea of Daskinor creating it, or at least helping in create it, it's why he's so freaking looney now, trying to create a plane of existence that is infinite yet is pure nothingness, that would drive me bonkers.
I remember this subject coming up before anyways.
its in RISE AND FALL OF A DRAGON KING.
i like that even the gods could get lost there
Both, use sidebars for the latter.
By preference is to simply flesh out a couple demiplanes and let the GM follow suit (as Sysane said), but might include basic rules if the community feels they're necessary.
The idea of souls actively resisting dissolution in the grey like kalak, that's awesome. a way to keep around folks like kalak or tectuktitlay or whatever.
Kalak? Definitely going to have something about him and a few others (Sacha, Wyan, maybe Korgunard) hanging out in the Gray. Not sure about Tec, though, since not only was he killed by an artifact (Dark Lens) it was being wielded by a "god." I am going to have a part in the DM's Gray info that will include information on "persistent undead."
Speaking of Plane hopping.. what happens when one tries to use Arcane magic on another plane?? In most campaigns, the energy is part of the cosmos, but for Athas, it comes from life energy, there aren't always plants and animals of a recognized variety to sustain that energy.. (else the SK's would have ravaged a lush plane for its energy long ago) So, lets take Dregoth for example, can he use his sorcery anywhere? if not, why? of course his psionics are formidable enough to protect him, but still.. what about all that??
Defiler and preserver magic work anywhere. Arcane spells brought to Athas, though, that's another story. Since magic wasn't supposed to exist on Athas, I'd have a hard time believing that any foreign magic brought here and not powered by life would work. This info should probably be included in the Veil part of the book. I'm also thinking of making it slightly easier to get into Athas than out. That way, people can summon demons and whatnot and they can't get home, thus making them very angry. Also, it would mean that power-hungry mages would find themselves on Athas where their magic doesn't work, no clothes, no possessions, and no hope for survival...nice beard, dude.
I actually liked the idea of Daskinor creating it, or at least helping in create it, it's why he's so freaking looney now, trying to create a plane of existence that is infinite yet is pure nothingness, that would drive me bonkers.
Rise and Fall claims that Nibs made the Hollow, but this may or may not be true given the inconsistencies in that book. Still, it makes sense. I also think it makes sense that Daskinor would have something to do with it. Maybe Nibs wrote the spell and then handed it off to Dask to cast. "Here, dude: YOU do it."
The section about Nibenay casting the spell is recalled verbatim by Hamanu: when he recalls it, we "are" back in the past, next to Nibenay who explains to the other Champions how he came up with the idea, what it does and how it can be implemented, which is done less than an hour later.
Daskinor is not there because Abbey didn't know he existed.
Penn - I loved Abbey's ideas and I think I'm one of the few people who actually loved Rise and Fall (I'm also a huge fan of her friend, CJ Cherryh). I think, had she known about Daskinor, she would have included him. In short, I absolutely feel that Nibs was behind the Hollow, or at least its design. Of all the SKs, he's the only one with a library, and a huge one, at that, so it absolutely makes sense that he would be the designer. Of course, if he knew that creating such a powerful thing would be dangerous, it's very likely that he'd hand it off to one of his less astute "companions."
Instead of interpreting it to my liking, I'm trying to make it jive with what the rest of us believe is the "real" Athas. Rise and Fall was a great book, but it was just a little off.
its in RISE AND FALL OF A DRAGON KING.
Ah, which means I can take everything stated with a grain of salt or two, cool.
Forgot that was in there, thanks.
"Here, dude: YOU do it."
To the first guy: "Here, you do it, I'll hold him down."
First guy to the second guy: "Here, you do it, I'll hold him down."
Daskinor after creating the Hallow: "Ahhhhh! That will wake you up in the morning boys!"
Instead of interpreting it to my liking, I'm trying to make it jive with what the rest of us believe is the "real" Athas. Rise and Fall was a great book, but it was just a little off.
Amen brother.
I think I will go with that idea, cause you're right, it does make sense. I just wanted a cool reason for Daskinor to go insane other than isolation.
Finally! A Darksun that makes sense! Congrats to those who continue to define the world of ATHAS! MAN I'M so EXCITED!
Is that the Darksun we came up with that time when we all got together in a dark basement and ate Dawnstealer's jello minis until someone called the poison hotline?
:P
Is that the Darksun we came up with that time when we all got together in a dark basement and ate Dawnstealer's jello minis until someone called the poison hotline?
:P
Man, that was the day, let me tell you.
:D
Man, that was the day, let me tell you.
:D
You remember that day? Its kinda a blur to me...:D
You remember that day? Its kinda a blur to me...:D
Only when I'm drinking.
Speaking of which...
Yeah, those crack-filled miniatures really went well with all the jello shots and magic brownies.
mmmmm, magic brownies
Hmmm...who's good at creating prestige classes? I have a good idea what I want for an Elemental Champ, but might need some help with balancing.
Hmmm...who's good at creating prestige classes? I have a good idea what I want for an Elemental Champ, but might need some help with balancing.
I consider myself pretty good.
Lukasz, I know you were interested, too. Any other takers? Probably need about 1-2 more max.
Weird! I never thought you'd jump to the plate! :D
;)
As for priests of the elements, they're going to be in for surprises when they travel to the opposing plane. A taste:
Air Cleric traveling to Earth - suffers double gravity.
Earth Cleric traveling to Air - suffers zero gravity.
Fire Cleric traveling to Water - suffers cold.
Water Cleric traveling to Fire - suffers extreme heat (even with spells on).
Basically, the Elemental Lords have made alliances, but still don't like their opposites, even though they now rely on them for survival.
.Lyric, my fellow Alaskan, check the outline: Magic and Powers both have their own chapter.
As for priests of the elements, they're going to be in for surprises when they travel to the opposing plane. A taste:
Air Cleric traveling to Earth - suffers double gravity.
Earth Cleric traveling to Air - suffers zero gravity.
Fire Cleric traveling to Water - suffers cold.
Water Cleric traveling to Fire - suffers extreme heat (even with spells on).
Basically, the Elemental Lords have made alliances, but still don't like their opposites, even though they now rely on them for survival.
You're in Alaska?? cool
if it were me, I'd tweak things a touch though, here's my thought, tell me what you think. I've described the result, but I'll leave it up to others to describe the game mechanic effect upon the character.
Air Cleric traveling to Earth - suffers claustraphobia, feels like he can't breath.
Earth Cleric traveling to Air - Suffers dissorientation, virtigo, and a sense somewhat like a fear of heights.
Fire Cleric traveling to Water - feels cold, nervous, anxious and restrained.
Water Cleric traveling to Fire - feels lethargic, drained, breaks out in a sweat often, needs double or triple his daily alotment of water.
I figure it should be more of a mental thing than a magical thing, do to their training, also, this allows, if you wish, the opportunity to grant each cleric the same penalty provided he's in the opposed element (like a -2 initiative penalty, -2 to concentration and relevant skill checks if any, or even a temporary -2 wisdom modifier after a certain amount of time in the hostile environment (could even be cumulative). And in some cases, you could easily warrent a progressively increasing penalty.)
Of course, characters may be epic when they reach those planes, or, you could simply have the penalties be like -10, -20 just because they are the diametrically apposed plane.. regardless of level.. that would keep the young squirts out... and most of the older ones too!
You're right, I like that method better.
Lukasz - I more need people with an understanding of Planescape and how to write an entertaining 10 page paper. We'll make the rules work once we have the setting "set" and adjust what we need to in the fluff.
Air Cleric traveling to Earth - suffers claustraphobia, feels like he can't breath.
Earth Cleric traveling to Air - Suffers dissorientation, virtigo, and a sense somewhat like a fear of heights.
Fire Cleric traveling to Water - feels cold, nervous, anxious and restrained.
Water Cleric traveling to Fire - feels lethargic, drained, breaks out in a sweat often, needs double or triple his daily alotment of water.
I like this. All the results could mimic the penalties of being shaken.
Furthermore, there should be a mechanic in place for spells being cast on an opposed plane (i.e. A fire cleric casting a fire spell wouldn't be as effective on the plane of water and would suffer a -2 penalty to the spells save DC and caster level checks).
At the same time, spells that share the element would be boosted (i.e. a fire cleric casting a fire spell on the plane of fire would add +2 to the spells DC and be at a +2 for caster level checks).
Or something along those lines.
Guess that would be a question: to make things nastier, should the Paras be included?
umm, what's the effect you just mentioned above, shaken ? is that related to defiler magic gathering??
hmmm, what else was I gonna say?? Oh yeah, you're moving back to seattle too?? dang dude :P I'll be back there late next month! small world :P
Iumm, what's the effect you just mentioned above, shaken ? is that related to defiler magic gathering??
From the SRD under "SPECIAL ABILITIES & CONDITIONS":
Shaken: A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked
Guess that would be a question: to make things nastier, should the Paras be included?
I would like to see the paraelemental planes be included. In my mind I see the effects of both joining planes stacking. Water and Air penalties against Fire and Earth clerics. I think this will help show how powerful these rising new forces are.
On the side, I was thinking what the paraelementals should be like. They should be immune to both of the elements that they are made of. Magma would have no problem in the Earth or the Fire planes. This would be in addition to their own plane of Magma.
While the Elementals have been dominant for ages, the Paraelements power is growing, so should their plane. As it grows, it encroaches upon the territory of Earth and Fire. ( In the begining this joining point would have been small. With the increase in power it has grown immensely absorbing the other planes). This is all a "IMO".
Should the Elemental planes be finate? Iwas thinking this will help show the shortage of space and territory and would make more sense than if it was infanite. If you go the Finate route you should make it like a sphere. That way travel can be infinate, just not each plane. I guess I am imagining each plane joining into one sphere. Each area would have its own Planar qualities and its own boundaries. Example:The plane of water would be much smaller than the plane of silt which would surround it.
This way all the elemental planes would be rolled into one. Ya dig?
Of the Paras, Silt and Sun are far and away the most powerful. Magma's moving up there, but isn't much more powerful than its standard "Great Wheel" counterpart. Slightly, but not much. Rain's fading fast, although I'm thinking of having a rejuvenation going on thanks to the Cerulean Storm. Unless you guys think that idea's stupid, in which case I'll probably include it just to torque you off. ;P
plus, it could have benficial effects for rain clerics and druids alike.. imagine a rain cleric trying to influence the cerulian storm, to remove the defiler taint it has being originated by Rajaat.. and cleans it, to flow freely accross athas.. imagine a druid trying to harness it's energy to enchant the rain, to make previously barren lands the more fertile!!As with fire I see it being controlled by Magma and Air. Though, imagine Sun giving the Plane of fire a hand (Tornadoes made of fire erupting from the surface of the Sun).