Excelent Work! It was totally worth the wait! :D
Arena Champion requirements:
In 3.5 you have to specify in which Perform you are putting ranks. Either change the prerequisite to Perform (Any) or state the type of performance required.
Black Cassok Bureau Mastery:
The black cossack??? should be the black cassock
The black cossack??? should be the black cassock
Lol!
No dwelf prestige classes? Jon, are you guys slipping up over there at Athas.org?
Grovemater: The table is somehow mixed through and in it the rows for level 1-3 are missing
Shadow Wizard, Wife of Nibenay: In the table the rows for level 1-3 are missing
Veiled One: The row for the 10th level is at the top of the table
Also I've a question regarding the Black Cassock.
Text describes the templars of Tyr as spelless after the dead of Kalak, but to become a Black Cassock you must have the ability to cast spells. In addition, with increasing class-levels the spellcasting class increase too.
So my question is: How can you become a Black Cassock, when you're not able to cast spells spontaneously?
So far I realy like (most of) the PrCs, and I'll use some of them for some NSCs (maybe some of my players will use one of them too).
But what, no more pit fighters?
What about Dwarven Exorcist?
Some sort of elemental-psionic hybrid. Maybe Elemental Disciple?
Ghi is listed as an "Expotic Weapon" in the table under Kuotagha.
Also, couldn't an elemental priest take Restorationist without taking arcane requirements and gaining +1 caster level in his existing class?
Otherwise good.
Also, couldn't an elemental priest take Restorationist without taking arcane requirements and gaining +1 caster level in his existing class?
.....or druids?
Let me give an example. Arak the Preserver qualifies to become a Shadow Wizard. He takes one level in Shadow Wizard. He can now power his spells from the Black. Next level he drops the PrC, and continues to advance as a Preserver. He can still cast from the Black. He no longer has to worry about defiling. At the same time, he no longer has to worry about the power of the Black transforming his body. Its seems somewhat cheesy, but legal. Was this intentional? Am I reading it wrong?
Taking one level of Necromant, Shadow Wizard and Cerulean is probably possible, but the underlying rule (read unwritten) is that a DM should not give two or more of those PrCs to a single character, nor let a player do it.
Amen brother.
Taking one level of Necromant, Shadow Wizard and Cerulean is probably possible, but the underlying rule (read unwritten) is that a DM shoul not give two or more of those PrCs to a single character, nor let a player do it.
Wasn't talking about that. Take anyone of those 3.(But only one). Switch into that PrC, then switch out. They can still use the alternate method of drawing energry, but don't have to deal with any drawbacks of being a Defiler/Preserver, or the PrC they just left. Thats what I was talking about.
From a mechanics perspective, why would anyone want to be a straight Preserver, when they can dip into one these PrCs, gain all the benefits of being a Preserver, without most of the drawbacks?
[...] but don't have to deal with any drawbacks of being a Defiler/Preserver [...]
Being a preserver is the basic state that every wizard starts with, so its not really a choice. It has drawbacks yes, but also boons too.
Take Mr. Average: he becomes a wizard. Chances are he'll be taught by a preserver.
Later on that same newbie preserver may defile by accident and turn defiler for the rest of his life.
Or, that preserver may see the great power that can be achieved by defiling (extend defiling to 1 round to get +1 caster level, Arch Defiler PrC, Leech PrC) and switch over.
But a wizard advancing in either Necromant, Shadow Wizard or Cerulean makes a decision to give himself over to this external force, make it part of himself (literally, in the case of the first two). The rules say you may still defile or preserve, but no self-respecting Necromant will use plant energy ever again.
Those PrCs don't give more...fire-power, which is what defiling does. Those PrCs are theme-based: they enhance the roleplaying possibilities of gaming, they don't help you to kill the big bad any faster.
Want power?: become a defiler.
Even more power?: become a Arch Defiler or a Leech
Feel a connection to death or the dark?: become a Necromant or Shadow Wizard.
Hear voices calling to you during Tyr-Storms?: become a Cerulean.
Don't feel a special connection, or don't obscenely crave power?: stay a preserver.
If these were just discovered on Athas,(they weren't but bear with me) I could see them completely repacing plant energy a couple of hundred years. I could see, at that point, them becoming base classes.
Shadow Wizards have been around for centuries, but they have been few in numbers. They look weird and just scream "unnatural wizard", which turns the mob loose on them. Ceruleans have just appeared in the wake of the Tyr Storms. Necromants are mostly undead spellcasters of the Deadlands who had to find a new means of gathering energy for their spells. So that's partly why these alternate sources aren't widespread.
Well, that sort've my point. These shouldn't be widespread. But as the PrC is written now,(from a mechanical standpoint) there is no reason why they shouldn't be widespread.
As written, I could do this. I start as a Preserver, take one level in Necromant, continue as a Preserver. Preserver 19/Necromant 1. By taking one level in Necromant, I can cast -all- my spells using Grey casting. I no longer have to worry about Defiling, my appearance hasn't changed, and my character doesn't even have to be particularly interested in death, or undeath. Its a PrC without consequences.
I'd like to see a little more consequences for taking such classes. Effects that stick with you, even after leaving the class. Perhaps Shadow taint that continues with you for every Mage level you gain, even if its not in the Shadow Wizard PrC. For Necromant, maybe you're considered quasi-undead. In otherwords, turning attempts have some sort adverse effect on you. Maybe you're shaken. Cerulean I am not sure of.
As written, I could do this. I start as a Preserver, take one level in Necromant, continue as a Preserver. Preserver 19/Necromant 1. By taking one level in Necromant, I can cast -all- my spells using Grey casting. I no longer have to worry about Defiling, my appearance hasn't changed, and my character doesn't even have to be particularly interested in death, or undeath. Its a PrC without consequences.
And that's where the DM steps in and says "No!", that's what I do when I see a PrC being abused like that.
PrCs are usually tied to organizatons, and those organizations have members and rules. And if they don't, they have to be trained in the PrC from someone, and that someone could not train that PC if he thinks their heart isn't in it.
There's this Star Wars bounty hunter who decides to learn either the jedi or sith secrets, and when that's done he returns to being a mercenary, using his newfound knowledge to be a better mercenary but without the restrictions of following the philosophies of either the sith or the jedi.
Now, unless you were born on Mars there's a good chance you'll understand this analogy is totally unrealistic in the Star Wars universe: this stuff never happens.
Same with Shadow Wizards, Necromants and Ceruleans. Following one of those courses is like becoming a jedi or sith: there is indoctrination and/or profound changes in philosophy that the DM and player have to create and implement for the character.
And that's where the DM steps in and says "No!", unless that's what I do when I see a PrC being abused like that.
PrCs are usually tied to organizatons, and those organizations have members and rules. And if they don't, they have to be trained in the PrC from someone, and that someone could not train that PC if he thinks their heart isn't in it.
Okay, but where is that stated in the requirements? From what I read, it seems like I could easily pick up this on my own. If it said something like.
Requirements:
Special:Must be trained by another Cerulean/Shadow Wizard/Necromant
and had stipulations for Ex-Ceruleans/Ex-Shadow Wizards/Ex-Necromants, I'd be the first to cheer.
There's this Star Wars bounty hunter who decides to learn either the jedi or sith secrets, and when that's done he returns to being a mercenary, using his newfound knowledge to be a better mercenary but without the restrictions of following the philosophies of either the sith or the jedi.
Except, Jedi abilities are a bit more spread out throughout the course of the class. They also need to turn in their Lightsaber if they stopped advancing as Jedi. Also, he wouldn't even need to be a Jedi, just a Force Adept. And any mercenary who tried that would still have deal with possible Dark Side Points.;)
I'm refering to the movies.
Darth Vador is eternally an evil jedi, even though he now works in a job that doesn't require the force.
Kenobi was still a good jedi through and through after so many years of being an hermit.
These things stick with you.
Think of becoming a Shadow Wizard as having a sex change operation: you're never the same again, and it has consequences for the rest of your life.
You need to roleplay that, there's no room for munchkinism.
Okay, but where is that stated in the requirements?
It's not, it's called being a DM and working with the players or stopping them from abusing the rules.
If we had to spell out what the DM should do every time a rule is infriged or a abuse comes up, we would have books ten times the size of what they are now, which would drive up the price of said books, and then no one but the filthy rich would be able to play the game.
Dig?
Force Adept, Dark Side Points?
I'm refering to the movies.
Darth Vador is eternally an evil jedi, even though he now works in a job that doesn't require the force.
Kenobi was still a good jedi through and through after so many years of being an hermit.
These things stick with you.
Sorry, was referring to Star War D20 RPG.
Think of becoming a Shadow Wizard as having a sex change operation: you're never the same again, and it has consequences for the rest of your life.
You need to roleplay that, there's no room for munchkinism.
I agree. I just think it should be spelled out more firmly in the Prestige Class. Its a little ambiguous at the moment.
I agree. I just think it should be spelled out more firmly in the Prestige Class. Its a little ambiguous at the moment.
What you don't get though is that most if not all PrCs are like that, I don't see very many that can't be abused in some way.
And that's where the DM steps in and puts his foot down, unless he doesn't care, and then that's his big, ugly mess to deal with.
What you don't get though is that most if not all PrCs are like that, I don't see very many that can't be abused in some way.
And that's where the DM steps in and puts his foot down, unless he doesn't care, and then that's his big, ugly mess to deal with.
Then what is the point of this topic? Isn't it look through the document, look for flaws and possible abuses and then discuss how to fix them? If you say 'Well, all PrCs are open to possible abuses, its the DM's job to keep the players in line", doesn't that defeat the purpose of this topic?
If you say 'Well, all PrCs are open to possible abuses, its the DM's job to keep the players in line", doesn't that defeat the purpose of this topic?
No, because it only applies to the particular abuse you brought up.
Seriously, take a look at all the WotC PrCs out there and tell me you can't find the same opening for abuse as you found for the ones in the DS PrC doc Jon did.
You'll find that most are open to the same abuse you just brought up, and I will laugh if you expect WotC of all entities to fix them.
The roleplay aspect can be taken care of, but GAME MECHANICS come first, and the talking in funny voices and gesticulating comes second. ;)
That's your opinion of course, some like me prefer the reverse.
But I pretty much agree with most of what you said and was trying to convey the same thing to beyowulf.
Good job.
No, because it only applies to the particular abuse you brought up.
Seriously, take a look at all the WotC PrCs out there and tell me you can't find the same opening for abuse as you found for the ones in the DS PrC doc Jon did.
You'll find that most are open to the same abuse you just brought up, and I will laugh if you expect WotC of all entities to fix them.
Let other WotC PrCs take care of themselves.
But really, do you think what I am asking is so unreasonable? If these PrC belong to organizations(even loose organizations) have the PC be required to be mentored by a member to enter them. Have consequences for leaving the organization, be they as light or heavy you want, but have them. Does it eliminate abuse? No it doesn't. But it does put a little more power in the hands of the GM.
But power is already in the hands of the dm. A simple "No." is all you need if you don't want something to happen. There's nice ways to convey the "no", but in the end, the DM has the power of veto, and no need to shroud it in anything else. Once again, seperation of Game Mechanics and RPG aspects. You could run into a whole crew of Ceruleans and Necromants, looking for students, but if your DM wants to prevent you from indulging in the PrC of either one, he can just say"Sorry dude. No dice." and that's it.
You know, I am dropping this. I can't believe I met so much resistance to what was a minor issue.
Just off hand though, I am pretty sure the Warmind PrC from the Expanded Psionics Handbook had the requirement that you had to be mentored by another Warmind, so my idea wasn't exactly without precedent.
But really, do you think what I am asking is so unreasonable?
Yes...
If these PrC belong to organizations(even loose organizations) have the PC be required to be mentored by a member to enter them. Have consequences for leaving the organization, be they as light or heavy you want, but have them. Does it eliminate abuse? No it doesn't. But it does put a little more power in the hands of the GM.
Why does the DM need this when the DM can just say "No"?
Sure there's PrCs out there that have these limits, but I don't see a need for these to have that limit, esp since these are new things discovered and are going to be rare.
But anyways, I think we've both made our point, let's move on...
There is good precedence for what Beyowulf is saying. For example, the changes WotC made to the Ranger class from 3.0 to 3.5 were made with this precise issue as one of their considerations, as a way of preventing players from taking a single level of ranger in order to get the two-weapon fighting ability.
Yes, the DM can (and should) step in if a players seems to be abusing or cherry-picking from a class, but tight design should remove the need for DM oversight if at all possible.
I think that Beyowulf makes a good point because the issue of whether to be a preserver or not is a central concern for DS spellcasters. Having a one-level loophole that avoids that concern is, I feel, bad for the overall tone of the setting.
The Shadow Wizard already has Shadow Taint from 1st level and this might already be enough. Perhaps the Cerulean and Necromant should each also get a similar characteristic at 1st level. Slightly expand the necromant's undead presence ability to mean that he always smells like a corpse, for example, or give the Cerulean an overwhelming "storm-charged" aura that imposes interaction penalites. Just some random thoughts, there...
(Other than that, and the obvious formatting issues mentioned previously, the prestige class doc is a sweet piece of work. Nice one, Jon!
).I think that Beyowulf makes a good point because the issue of whether to be a preserver or not is a central concern for DS spellcasters. Having a one-level loophole that avoids that concern is, I feel, bad for the overall tone of the setting.
I said I wouldn't bring this up again, and I am not. But its nice to know that there is someone else who feels the same. I know now I am not crazy, least, any more than usual. ;)
(Other than that, and the obvious formatting issues mentioned previously, the prestige class doc is a sweet piece of work. Nice one, Jon!
It is. Hope I didn't give anyone the impression I was bashing it.
I must say that the PrC's are amazing ideas! They bring sort of a nice feel of what The Dragon Kings book had.
But anyway, I must say that I must agree with Beyowulf. The original concept of the game of DS (IMOO) for mages in general was to make them the cause of the reason Athas is the way it is. If in general you give that option to the player that he doesnt need to be afraid of the general populace in all the cities and oasis's he travels too you are leaving out a very important part of the game. I am not saying that I dont like the Necromant, Shadow, and Cerulean PrC's I am just saying that they should have some type of disadvantages for their SUPER abilites of drawing from other sources. It just seems that they take away from the over all theme of what the realm was in the first place without sometype of disadvantage for taking that PrC.
From a mechanics point of view we ran across something in the equipment of 3.5 DS guide that I brought up as over powered. We discussed it on this Forum in a civil manner and talked about all the reasons it could be abused if it wasnt corrected. After much talk and consideration it was changed, I think that is all Beyowulf is trying to get across about these PrC's, I think it is important to just consider this.
I understand the power of a DM by not granting something a player wants to make him very UBER and unbalancing. But I think it is very important to try and make the game as balanced as possible first.
Just my 2 cents.
-introneurotic
The original concept of the game of DS (IMOO) for mages in general was to make them the cause of the reason Athas is the way it is. If in general you give that option to the player that he doesnt need to be afraid of the general populace in all the cities and oasis's he travels too you are leaving out a very important part of the game. I am not saying that I dont like the Necromant, Shadow, and Cerulean PrC's I am just saying that they should have some type of disadvantages for their SUPER abilites of drawing from other sources. It just seems that they take away from the over all theme of what the realm was in the first place without sometype of disadvantage for taking that PrC.
-introneurotic
I'd have to agree here as well it seems that it takes away some of the risk from being a wizard. The PrC's are great and at most might have to be tweaked or considered ultra rare to preserve the DS feel.
AFAIK, it's generally a design element of 3e that you don't have classes that players can "cherry-pick" from, taking only a level or two for its immediate benefits and then moving on to another/former class.
Not sure what system you have been running/playing all this time, but that is 3e, or at least the way it is designed overall.
At least it is in most PrCs anyways.
Something that I rant about to my players on a normal basis and is just bad design IMO.
I kind of feel the need to rise to the defense of cherry-picking in certain occassions. Mostly in worlds other than Athas, though. Like the ability of a sorceror (or anyone else, but Sorceror gets the most out of it) to take a couple levels of Paladin, thus gaining then benefits of a handful of immunities and the Charisma bonus to Savings Throws.
And that's the whole munchkinism/powergaming/whateverelseyouwanttocallit that 3e promotes, that I totally disagree with.
Not sure what system you have been running/playing all this time, but that is 3e, or at least the way it is designed overall.
At least it is in most PrCs anyways.
My experience of this is that the better prestige classes reward characters who gain several levels in that class, rather than cherry-picking here and there.
My experience of this is that the better prestige classes reward characters who gain several levels in that class, rather than cherry-picking here and there.
Sure, but it doesn't stop the cherry picking, i.e. promoting it, and that's what most of my argument is about.
That's where the DM just has to intervene though, like I was trying to explain to beyowulf.
1) I would be very interested in Jon's opinion about this. After all, he is the author of the document.
2) 'Wizardly magic uses life force and the responsible of the destruction of the world' is a fundamental part of Dark Sun. The mere presence of the Ceruleans and the other guys, who get out from this loop give me the creeps. If I may use the Star Wars analogy: it's suddenly as if every Force user could use the Force at their leasure, without worry for the Dark Side. Free Force Lightning, anybody?
But it's just me, so move on...3) Cherry picking is okay sometimes. And honestly, who cares if the player has 2 level from Battle Dancer, 3 level from Element Singer, and 2 level from Elemental Master? It doesn't change a major thing in the world. But the issue Beowulf presented is serious, see point 2 above. So something should be put here, as it can very well ruin a DS campaign if the DM overlooks it. Anything which reduces the possibility of DM errors is good. My idea is to put the penalty part of the PrC at first level, and tie it to the number of spells cast by these alternative ways (like it's done at the defiler) and the penalties accrue when a certain number of spell is cast. This would reduce the cherry picking in these critical cases for good.
4) Finally a question to Jon: will be a psionic assassin PrC presented in this or the next PrC document? I know one appeared in one of the athas.org modules, but to have it here (maybe updated) for convenience would be good... Also any plan to convert some other PrC from DMG and other books? There is a bit too much elf-related PrC, so adding some for other races would be greatly appreciated... ;)
Qualifying for the Necromant PrC can be done fairly early, and aside from Iron Will, many of the requirements can be a matter of course for a wizard. This PrC looks quite appealing to preservers from a RP standpoint, and it shouldn't. This PrC needs something that would make a dedicated preserver go "uh, never mind- thats alright."
I don't know if this PrC has any kind of precedent from 2nd edition cannon. But there are several things that could be done to make the Necromant unappealing to preservers.
An evil alignment would be a good start. Or at least Neutral.
Perhaps some sort of unnatural tutelage is required. Like watching someone die verrrry sloooowly.
Or an undead tutor.
Or perhaps, because the gray is made of the dead, he can feel what these ghosts feel as he puts them through the meat grinder and turns them into magic.
Perhaps he's like a vampire and needs to feed off the freshly dead every so often, or he feels the consequences.
This is a necromancer class, after all. Spinetingling is the name of the game.
If this sounds harsh, I apologize, but thats why it's in playtest. I wouldn't allow this particular PrC onto the table as its written.
WOTC has begun putting a table before PrC sections in their books. That table could help this book a lot. There's a lot to absorb, here.
My table
Good Guys- Restorationist, Veiled One
Bad Guys- Arch Defiler, Leech, Myrmeleon, Necromant, Royal Defiler
Arcane- Arch Defiler, Cerulean, Chasseur, Earth Defender, Halfling Protector, Leech, Myrmeleon, Necromant, Restorationist, Royal Defiler, Shadow Wizard, Veiled One
Elemental- Battle Dancer, Elementalist, Element Singer, Elemental Master
Nature- Earth Defender, Grove Master, Master Scout, Restorationist, Savage
In the Service of City States- Arrow Knight (Draj), Black Cassock (Tyr), Eagle Knight (Draj), Jaguar Knight (Draj), Kuotagha (Raam), Moon Priest (Draj), Oba's Servant (Gulg), Royal Defiler, Servant of Badna (Raam), Shadow Templar (Balic), Templar Knight, Templar of the Scale (New Giustenal), Wife of Nibenay (Nibenay), Yellow Robe (Urik)
Racial- Battle Dancer (elf), Element Singer (elf), Halfling Protector (halfling), Kreen Slayer (elf), Shadow (elf), Templar of the Scale (dray), Tik-Tik (Thri-Kreen),
Combat- Arena Champion, Arrow Knight, Eagle Knight, Elite Sniper, Master Scout, Psionic Monk, Reaver, Savage, Soulknife, Templar Knight, Tik-Tik
Urban- Draqoman, Dune Trader, Kuotagha, Poisonmaster, Shadow
Psionic- Kreen Slayer, Psionic Monk, Soulknife
-The abbreviation for Chasseur needs to be changed, to avoid confusion. (Cha)
-It should be noted that Abjurers make great anti-spellcasters... so requiring an abjuration or two of Chasseurs would fit them well.
More observations later, perhaps.
To use the Necromant as an example, I envision a wizard (probablly a defiler :D ) who begins to form an affinity for the undead (undead presence). As he progresses along this path his connection to the undead grows (grave speaker, dead lord ect...). Until, finally, he is so attuned to death and the undead, that he can draw on the plane of death itself to power his spells (gray casting).
Now, in any other setting gray casting would be no big deal (would be simple fluff actually), but in Dark Sun where a central feature of the setting is the destructive nature of magic, then this ability is quite impressive.
This would go a long way towards preserving the flavor of the setting, and to prevent 'cherry picking' of these classes.
I wouldn't be surprised if this is WotC catching on and making efforts to go further than 3 descriptive paragraphs.
Check out Lost Empires of Faerûn and Complete Adventurer; some PrCs have now 2 or even 3 times the normal length they would have had before those publications.
-The abbreviation for Chasseur needs to be changed, to avoid confusion. (Cha)
I don't have the doc at hand but 3.5 PrCs no longer have abbreviations, so this must be an error.
Regarding a wizard taking one level in an alternative spellcasting class and then dropping out of the class, that is in 98.4% cases a munchkin choice. The DM is free to prevent such behavior if he doesn't approve by adding more requirements. Yes, there is precedence for prestige class requirements in the form of organizational membership/approval and mentor relationships. However, there is no precedence for organizations of these alternative wizards or *requirements* for mentor relationships in any previous DS material where these alternative spellcasters appear, and thus I will not add either as a class prerequisite.
The DM can always say "no" on grounds of violating campaign flavor.
As for those arguing that because it is so simple to fulfill the class requirements that there shouldn't be any ordinary wizards left, there are several counterarguments. Since I need to go to work now, I will only give you one: Demographics. Most wizards never reach 6th level (first level either class is attainable), thus the alternative spellcasters will not be widespread.
PS: You seriously overestimate the benefits of alternative spellcasting if you want it as a 10th prestige class level feature. A preserver's benefit would really only be circumventing negative terrain modifiers and a defiler wouldn't be able to use his Raze feats when using the alternative method of energy gathering.
Regarding a wizard taking one level in an alternative spellcasting class and then dropping out of the class, that is in 98.4% cases a munchkin choice. The DM is free to prevent such behavior if he doesn't approve by adding more requirements. Yes, there is precedence for prestige class requirements in the form of organizational membership/approval and mentor relationships. However, there is no precedence for organizations of these alternative wizards or *requirements* for mentor relationships in any previous DS material where these alternative spellcasters appear, and thus I will not add either as a class prerequisite.
I totally agree. There's no reason to invent an organization that doesn't exist, and I wouldn't want to compromise that... but there are other options.
As for those arguing that because it is so simple to fulfill the class requirements that there shouldn't be any ordinary wizards left, there are several counterarguments. Since I need to go to work now, I will only give you one: Demographics. Most wizards never reach 6th level (first level either class is attainable), thus the alternative spellcasters will not be widespread.
One problem I have though is that most PC's are above that... I think most DS games begin at 3rd or 4th level. That doesn't leave a lot of time before a Wizard can sink his teeth into one of these PrC's.
PS: You seriously overestimate the benefits of alternative spellcasting if you want it as a 10th prestige class level feature. A preserver's benefit would really only be circumventing negative terrain modifiers and a defiler wouldn't be able to use his Raze feats when using the alternative method of energy gathering.
I agree 100%. I worry about the thematic consequences however more than i do mechanic. I am not saying the ideas need to be scrapped. I am just uncomfortable with them as they are written.
The document is telling us that the practitioners of these PrC's are few and far between, but the mechanics don't. I imagine one of my pc's dealing with the consequences of preserving vs. defiling for about 3 or 4 levels, and then it's over- he's done his work and he's a cerulean now. I'm a little dissapointed, because I love that aspect of the setting. I personally wouldn't want this to happen until the PC is at least level 10- not because its too powerful, but because otherwise I feel a little cheated. After all, look at all the threads on this board devoted to defiling and preserving. Why all the hoopla if it's over that quickly?
However, I do see the thematical implications some are concerned about. Those of you who are are free to regulate matters in your own games, but I have yet to be convinced of the need for raising the prestige class requirements further. Compared to alternative wizard core classes, the current prestige classes fulfill more of your wishes than you might think at first hand.
I must say that the PrC's are amazing ideas! They bring sort of a nice feel of what The Dragon Kings book had.
YESSS! *signs that quote quite ethusiastically*
That discussion about PrC and their abouse aside (they do make for quite nice game-playing and allow players to infuse their PCs with a kind of uniqueness and diversity as well as giving the core-classes a campaign-world specific outlook and lifestyle) THANKX Jon for those loads and loads of nice, interesting and idea-giving prestige-classes for Athas!! I really like them! Especially giving all those Templars a specific one to make them as unique es their respective Sorceror-King is!
Thankx for all the work you put into them!
PS: You seriously overestimate the benefits of alternative spellcasting if you want it as a 10th prestige class level feature. A preserver's benefit would really only be circumventing negative terrain modifiers and a defiler wouldn't be able to use his Raze feats when using the alternative method of energy gathering.
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that I thought it should be the ONLY feature of a 10th level prestige class, certainly it would be under powered if it were the only feature gained. I just thought it might be a solution for those with thematic concerns. I have no personal stake in it either way, as I prefer to run games set before the events detailed in the second edition boxed set. I was just throwing out ideas.
As for the rest of the book, I really like the SK specific templar classes (particularly Wife of Nibenay as I'm running an Ivory Triangle campaign). The Arch Defiler and Royal Defiler classes are neat as well.
As written, I could do this. I start as a Preserver, take one level in Necromant, continue as a Preserver. Preserver 19/Necromant 1. By taking one level in Necromant, I can cast -all- my spells using Grey casting. I no longer have to worry about Defiling, my appearance hasn't changed, and my character doesn't even have to be particularly interested in death, or undeath. Its a PrC without consequences.
How about this:
You can use the alternative source for spells of a level equal or lower than your prestige class level.
So a Defiler 6/Necromant 2 could only power his 1st and 2nd level spells with Gray energy...
I intend to use these classes as written, but if they cause problems, I will try the above house rule.
4) Finally a question to Jon: will be a psionic assassin PrC presented in this or the next PrC document? I know one appeared in one of the athas.org modules, but to have it here (maybe updated) for convenience would be good... Also any plan to convert some other PrC from DMG and other books? There is a bit too much elf-related PrC, so adding some for other races would be greatly appreciated...
Psionic Assassin will probably appear in Vol II. For now, an updated version is in Tyrian Conspiracy. There are no plans to convert other DMG classes at the moment. More racial classes will be included in Vol II.
I agree 100%. I worry about the thematic consequences however more than i do mechanic. I am not saying the ideas need to be scrapped. I am just uncomfortable with them as they are written.
The document is telling us that the practitioners of these PrC's are few and far between, but the mechanics don't. I imagine one of my pc's dealing with the consequences of preserving vs. defiling for about 3 or 4 levels, and then it's over- he's done his work and he's a cerulean now. I'm a little dissapointed, because I love that aspect of the setting. I personally wouldn't want this to happen until the PC is at least level 10- not because its too powerful, but because otherwise I feel a little cheated. After all, look at all the threads on this board devoted to defiling and preserving. Why all the hoopla if it's over that quickly?
You're forgetting the whole part where you can say "no". ;)
Why is this so hard? I do it all the time in my games and get very little grief over it except by one player, and he's not one of my players anymore.
If you don't want PCs getting access to it as quickly as the requirements allow them too, then don't let them, period. That's what inventing training rules and such are for like I did. You can't just go walking around and automatically gain whatever class or PrC you want as soon as you level and make the requirements.
If you don't want PCs getting access to it as quickly as the requirements allow them too, then don't let them, period. That's what inventing training rules and such are for like I did. You can't just go walking around and automatically gain whatever class or PrC you want as soon as you level and make the requirements.
Most gamers I've met agree with the above level of realism if the DM imposes it.
You're forgetting the whole part where you can say "no". ;)
Why is this so hard? I do it all the time in my games and get very little grief over it except by one player, and he's not one of my players anymore.
If you don't want PCs getting access to it as quickly as the requirements allow them too, then don't let them, period. That's what inventing training rules and such are for like I did. You can't just go walking around and automatically gain whatever class or PrC you want as soon as you level and make the requirements.
Look at it from this point of view. These prestige classes are all in playtest right now. This is where fans let Athas.org know about our opinions and concerns. I would like these prestige classes to be as good as possible when they are finally released- I really don't like the thematic consequences of those particular prestige classes. Sure, I can say that I don't have to allow them, but that doesn't help me or athas.org.
I would like these prestige classes to be as good as possible when they are finally released- I really don't like the thematic consequences of those particular prestige classes.
As far as the people that are in charge of making changes though they are fine with what's been put out so far. So if you really want these changed at all you're going to have to convince them there is a problem, i.e. Jon.
Sure, I can say that I don't have to allow them, but that doesn't help me or athas.org.
But I'm not saying don't allow them, I'm saying wait till PCs are 10th level, or whatever level you want them at before allowing them to take one of these PrCs. Just say they can't find someone to train them to learn this PrC, or something similar until you are ready for them to take it.
That's all I'm saying, allow them, but with tighter DM restriction if you see fit.
That's all I do anyways, I disallow very little, I just restrict things more heavily till I think it's suitable for PCs to obtain then for whatever reason.
Most gamers I've met agree with the above level of realism if the DM imposes it.
So why not make the PrC require something that you can't get just wandering around adventuring? It doesn't make sense to me to say that characters shouldn't be able to just spontaneously take this prestige class, but not reflect that mechanically. I think they should have to do something to get these prestige classes, and to offer them at a higher level.
But I'm not saying don't allow them, I'm saying wait till PCs are 10th level, or whatever level you want them at before allowing them to take one of these PrCs. Just say they can't find someone to train them to learn this PrC, or something similar until you are ready for them to take it.
Ok, I can say I am restricting to 10th level. I can say they have to dress up in a bunny suit and moon Rajaat while driving a Halfling spaceship. It's a moot point- that's my game. I am trying to help out with the public playtest by saying I don't like this. Whether or not I allow them, partially, fully, or not at all is neither here nor there. I'm just contributing to the playtest.
Jon, I am assuming, is going to try to please as many of the Dark Sun fans as possible. I'm one of them, and of course I hope he takes my opinion to heart.
As far as the people that are in charge of making changes though they are fine with what's been put out so far. So if you really want these changed at all you're going to have to convince them there is a problem, i.e. Jon.
Apparently Jon disagrees that there is a problem...
-Introneurotic
NytCrawlr did you help make these PrC's btw? Just asking. Or did the wonderful Jon do this by himself? Just wondering...
I assume that it is a collection sent to Jon by the community, and Jon tweaked and balanced them out to clean them up some.
I have done some and sent them to him, but most of those approved will probably be in Vol II.
Like I said...
Apparently Jon disagrees that there is a problem...
Which is his perogative.
Providing feedback is mine.
I assume that it is a collection sent to Jon by the community, and Jon tweaked and balanced them out to clean them up some.
Actually, I wrote them all. The only exception is the Grove Master, for which I had a shell by Gab and Brax I made drastic changes to. However, I have received plenty of input by the community on the doc in progress, so a lot of fan feedback has already been incorporated. Vol II will contain all the contributions by others after I tweak and squeak them.
Jon, I am assuming, is going to try to please as many of the Dark Sun fans as possible. I'm one of them, and of course I hope he takes my opinion to heart.
Yes, though it seems you are the minority and I agree with the majority in this matter. I see no reason to add more requirements. Anything that has to do with wizardry on Athas always creates a buzz, so a little heated discussion is to be expected.
Vol II will contain all the contributions by others after I tweak and squeak them.
Make them squeel!!
Vol II will contain all the contributions by others after I tweak and squeak them.
Wow, that's going to be chocked full of goodness, because I know I've sent you at least 4, if not a few more.
Sweet!
Providing feedback is mine.
And that was never in dispute.
I was doing the same...
Whether people cherry-pick from PrCs or they don't, I don't really care. They can grab a level of Cerulean, Shadow Wizard, -and- Necromant for all I care.
This is what I do care about. Taking a level in these PrC allows the PC to sidestep the issue of defiling. It also lessens the chance that they be discovered. What I would like is that they're be consequences to taking levels in these classes. In effect, they are trading one liability for another. An even exchange.
I mentioned this before, and Kamelion also brought up a good point.
The Shadow Wizard already has Shadow Taint from 1st level and this might already be enough. Perhaps the Cerulean and Necromant should each also get a similar characteristic at 1st level. Slightly expand the necromant's undead presence ability to mean that he always smells like a corpse, for example, or give the Cerulean an overwhelming "storm-charged" aura that imposes interaction penalites. Just some random thoughts, there...
Someone else mentioned only allowing alternative casting equal to the PC's level in the PrC. In other words, those with only 1 level in a PrC would only be able to alternate energies to cast 1st levels spells. 2 levels would give access to 2nd levels and so on and so forth.
It could also be something else entirely, but a liability given to those who take these PrC equal to what a Perserver has would help immensely.
Wow, that's going to be chocked full of goodness, because I know I've sent you at least 4, if not a few more.
Sweet!
I've sent 7, plus 4 from other people I know.
It could also be something else entirely, but a liability given to those who take these PrC equal to what a Perserver has would help immensely.
A preserver has what liability exactly except the temptation to defile, which remains even after acquiring a secondary energy source?
Anything that has to do with wizardry on Athas always creates a buzz, so a little heated discussion is to be expected.
Heh heh, ain't that the truth! ;)
Draqoman: Diplomacy 5 ranks, Gather Information 7 ranks, Knowledge (local) 5 ranks.
Dune Trader: Diplomacy 7 ranks, Bluff 5 ranks, Appraise 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks, Profession (merchant) 2 ranks.
Vol II will contain all the contributions by others after I tweak and squeak them.
I think my DS Racial Paragon classes maybe appearing in that as well.
A preserver has what liability exactly except the temptation to defile, which remains even after acquiring a secondary energy source?
The liabilitiy that whenever he casts spells, plants wither a bit. Thats a dead give-away that a wizard is in the area. And a wizard in the area is always the cue for an angry lynch mob to form. Whenever an alternative energry source is used, nothing like this happens. They can easily get away with casting spells, becausse there is no effect in the environment.
A preserver takes his life into his palm every time he casts a spell in a crowded area. Not so the preserver with an alternative energy source. Its way more easily hidden, and this bothers me.
Wizards released a psionic assassin. Search their downloads. I think it's in the Mind's Eye archives
Thx, but they only have a psionic assasin NPC, she is a 3/6/3 rogue/psion/assasin or something like that. It's not what I looking for.
Psionic Assassin will probably appear in Vol II. For now, an updated version is in Tyrian Conspiracy. There are no plans to convert other DMG classes at the moment. More racial classes will be included in Vol II.
Thanks for the update!
Yes, though it seems you are the minority and I agree with the majority in this matter. I see no reason to add more requirements. Anything that has to do with wizardry on Athas always creates a buzz, so a little heated discussion is to be expected.
I'm not a math professor, but there were more people voicing their worry with this issue than people who are OK with that.
Of course if you count the number of posts I'm fairly sure that Nyt is leading voice, and the mover and shaker of things.
All depends how are you counting majority.An idea to solve the issue: instead of giving more requriments what about giving the alternative energy source usage a bit later in the PrC? Maybe at 2nd or 3rd level. (Later is bad, after all it is the main feature of the PRC.) Like the ranger transformationfrom 3.0 to 3.5: not giving all the good stuff at once on 1st level. Players have to invest more level to get the cherry, therefore it's not so easy now. In the case of ranger it worked, I think it can work here, too.
As far as the people that are in charge of making changes though they are fine with what's been put out so far. So if you really want these changed at all you're going to have to convince them there is a problem, i.e. Jon.
But I'm not saying don't allow them, I'm saying wait till PCs are 10th level, or whatever level you want them at before allowing them to take one of these PrCs. Just say they can't find someone to train them to learn this PrC, or something similar until you are ready for them to take it.
That's all I'm saying, allow them, but with tighter DM restriction if you see fit.
That's all I do anyways, I disallow very little, I just restrict things more heavily till I think it's suitable for PCs to obtain then for whatever reason.
Just as a tought experiment: if you read a PrC in a WotC book, which is fine and sexy and everything, but has a weak spot, which makes it abusing easy, and you have to impose your restrictions, requiring more, etc. all the time to his PrC what would you say?
Maybe it's just me, but I would say: "it's a f***ed PrC! Who was that feebleminded drooling fool who created this?"
That's what we would like to avoid to happen with Jon, as we admire this guy, and of course fear his mighty lightning bolts.
So if a little thing helps to prevent a potential abuse from the start, therefore removing a burden from the already loaded shoulder of a DS DM, I say whay not?
Requirements:
Special:Must be trained by another Cerulean/Shadow Wizard/Necromant
Personally, I can see where you are coming on this. Of course, there still is the possiblity that someone spontaneously figures it out on their own, which is an option to consider.
and had stipulations for Ex-Ceruleans/Ex-Shadow Wizards/Ex-Necromants, I'd be the first to cheer.
No need for stipulations, I don't think. So the individual can tap into an alternative energy source. Honestly, I tend to treat alternative-energy wizards along the same lines as Defilers. The intent is to gain more power, and they are doing it at the expense of something (Ceruleans open themselves to the will of Rajaat. Necromants are, well, all kinds of bad news, no matter how you look at it. Shadow Wizards have access to the dark void of The Black, which is a corruptive influence in and of itself). Their initial intent ma have been to preserve the world by using another energy source, but the end result is that they become tainted by the new source they have chosen.
I like to leave the mechanics open - and throw out hints that such things may have consequences that the players aren't readily envisioning - which in turn, forces them to study more of the world, and try to treat it as a real world, with themselves as real people within that world, not just a set of rulebooks and statistics on a piece of paper.
the d20 system out-and-out avoids roleplaying issues - sticking to the mechanics of the game (hard numbers). The roleplaying aspects of the game are up to the DM to provide. You can either make it "roleplaying lite" - that is, basically a hack & slash dungeon crawl with obsticles and rewards, without the trappings of being in-character, or having to worry about a contiguous, interactive campaign world/environment. This is fine - it is one way of doing things.
A "roleplaying heavy" game would generate characters - not stats-first, but by getting the concept for the character, maybe the background, and "fleshing out" the character even before a single stat is generated. Then, you mold your character's abilities, skills, equipment, spells, etc. according to the concept you had for the character. The DM operates the world as a real world, with realistic consequences for characters' actions, keeps track of all the NPC's the characters interact with - their moods, feelings, and impressions from when they encountered the characters before, then also how things like a characters' actions affect their reputation and more throughout the world.
To me, "roleplaying heavy" is far more fulfilling, as it provides a more in-depth campaign that the players and gamemaster all interact together and build a full story from. "Roleplaying lite" is more for short-term adventures, and good for relaxing the mind a bit, and just venting frustrations, but there's rarely any real depth to it. Both have their pros and cons. And as others have said, all it takes is a simple "No" to stop a character from abusing a specific Prestige Class. If it really irks you, you can always add in those mechanical needs you desire into the PrC for your own games (called a "house rule") and just go from there.
I think my DS Racial Paragon classes maybe appearing in that as well.
Yes, that's the plan.
Maybe it's just me, but I would say: "it's a f***ed PrC! Who was that feebleminded drooling fool who created this?"
So if a little thing helps to prevent a potential abuse from the start, therefore removing a burden from the already loaded shoulder of a DS DM, I say whay not?
I cant help but agree with you on this. I can understand that DM's have the authority to say no...but what if the DM realizes after the PC's take this PrC. Example: Player 1 has made a 7th Defiler and has enough xp to gain another lvl. He decides to go Shadow Wizard as lvl 8. He plays this character throughout lvl 8 and is enjoying it. Now he has enough xp for lvl 9, he switchs back to defiler to avoid all the negative stuff coming from the shadow wizard PrC. Now Player 1 has played this character for an entire lvl, most likely 4-5 game sessions. The DM THEN finds out how BROKEN the rules are for this PrC and comes up with a dilema that might ruin his/her campaign.
Does the Dm strip the player of his PrC that he has been playing for sometime? Or does he continue to let the player abuse the rules that others couldnt solve/come up with a balanced way to make it fair?
This is a practial example that WILL come up for the HUNDREDS of people who look on athas.org and play DS. Instead of a balanced game like the other Wotc products they bring out they notice that DS is the game where unbalanced mechanics run unchecked.
If there can be someway to moderate the abilities of these overpowered PrC's we have been talking about I would be much more willing to allow ALL of these PrC's into the games that I play/run. Instead of just putting them on the shelf and saying..."well...that could have been a good idea".
-introneurotic
Of course if you count the number of posts I'm fairly sure that Nyt is leading voice, and the mover and shaker of things. All depends how are you counting majority.
Heh, I didn't do a fine count.
An idea to solve the issue: instead of giving more requriments what about giving the alternative energy source usage a bit later in the PrC? Maybe at 2nd or 3rd level. (Later is bad, after all it is the main feature of the PRC.) Like the ranger transformationfrom 3.0 to 3.5: not giving all the good stuff at once on 1st level. Players have to invest more level to get the cherry, therefore it's not so easy now. In the case of ranger it worked, I think it can work here, too.
Except it doesn't make sense to move the fundamental ability of the class to another level, especially considering the three classes were available from level 1 in 2E. I dropped the original plan to have the classes available as core classes in order to please those concerns you are voicing now about watering out defiling and preserving - without stomping too much on the toes of those who wanted them as core classes. Getting the alternative energy source any later than 6th level isn't going to fly well with that camp. As for your ranger analogy, the Cerulean isn't frontloaded as the ranger was, so the analogy is off-target. I've already shown you how little mechanical effect the alternative source has on the game. If the DM roleplays that factor heavily, making the benefit of alternative sources greater, then the munchkins will simply take more levels in the alternative class and pick up more goodies along the ride to get it.
This is a practial example that WILL come up for the HUNDREDS of people who look on athas.org and play DS. Instead of a balanced game like the other Wotc products they bring out they notice that DS is the game where unbalanced mechanics run unchecked.
Except the mechanics aren't unbalanced. It's a perceived thematical issue which has nothing to do with the game mechanical benefits.
Thanks for the Prestige Class doc, and to anyone who doesn't like it, don't look a gift kank in the mandibles, and if you don't like it, mod it or don't use it, but quit griping about it. FLUFF FOESN"T AFFECT RULES. SHADOW MAGES, NECROMANTS AND CERULEANS ARE JUST SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT APPROACHES TO BEING A WIZARD. THE RULES REMAIN THE SAME. YOU GET A COUPLE OF SMALL BENEFITS, BUT THERE ARE OTHER PRESTIGE CLASSES THAT GIVE WAY MORE STUFF. every single thing people have been citing as a problem is FLUFF. Get over it. If you knew ther first little nuances of being a DM, I wouldn't have to waste my time writing long paragraphs extolling your lack of a grasp on the basic concepts of being a dungeon master. This is 3.5 D&D. not 2E. FLUFF and RULES are distinct entities. how the common person reacts to a different type of mage matters as much in the design of a prestige class about as much as the price of Borscht in Kiev matters to me.
Jon, the people who keep having problems with this (except Nyt) are the ones who are still stuck on 2E style of gameplay, where the rules were such crap that you had to supplement them with fluff, and the lines between them blurred. Any DM worth his salt can see there's nothing wrong with the prestige classes at all. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RULES AND FLUFF , PEOPLE!!!! If you don't get that, you shouldn't be a DM.
And in 2E the cerulean, necromant (necromancer) and shadow wizard were available at 1st level, so those voicing concerns should in my opinion actually be pleased that things have shifted in the direction it has. Pushing it further just isn't happening based on the arguments I've seen laid forth and due to respect to those who would like the alternative wizard classes as core classes (available at 1st level), which would be more true to 2E rules.
I like to leave the mechanics open - and throw out hints that such things may have consequences that the players aren't readily envisioning - which in turn, forces them to study more of the world, and try to treat it as a real world, with themselves as real people within that world, not just a set of rulebooks and statistics on a piece of paper.
Amen brother! Couldn't have said it better myself, keep preaching on preaching on.
Oh and welcome back, however brief.
FLUFF FOESN"T AFFECT RULES. SHADOW MAGES, NECROMANTS AND CERULEANS ARE JUST SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT APPROACHES TO BEING A WIZARD. THE RULES REMAIN THE SAME. YOU GET A COUPLE OF SMALL BENEFITS, BUT THERE ARE OTHER PRESTIGE CLASSES THAT GIVE WAY MORE STUFF. every single thing people have been citing as a problem is FLUFF. Get over it. If you knew ther first little nuances of being a DM, I wouldn't have to waste my time writing long paragraphs extolling your lack of a grasp on the basic concepts of being a dungeon master. This is 3.5 D&D. not 2E. FLUFF and RULES are distinct entities.
To say that ‘Fluff’ doesn’t (or shouldn’t) affect rules makes no sense to me. If fluff doesn’t affect rules then why do the stats of Athasian races differ from those in the PHB? After all, isn’t all that stuff about elves who live nomadic lives racing across the deserts on foot just fluff? Isn’t the notion of the dwarven focus just fluff? By your logic the game rules shouldn’t be adjusted to fit this ‘fluff‘. Why design mechanics to account for where the energy for spells comes from at all? Isn’t all that defiler/ preserver stuff just fluff after all?
I agree that DMs should have a firm grasp of the difference between fluff and rules, but fluff should have a profound impact on DMs and how they run their games. ‘Fluff’ is, to me, the essence of what the DM should be concerned with. ‘Fluff’ is what makes D&D a role-playing game rather than an exercise in mathematics. True, it is a DM’s duty to ensure the rules are applied in a fair and balanced manner, but the true art of DMing is to use the fluff to bring a world to life for the players and himself. Fluff should dictate what mechanics a DM does and doesn’t allow in his game, and how much he emphasizes and/ or plays down aspects of the mechanics.
For instance, if the fluff of your campaign accentuates a gritty, brutal, and low magic setting; them maybe you (as the DM) might want to put restrictions on the spell casting classes and magic items. You might also want to tweak the death from massive damage rules to provide for more lethal combat.
Now, as far as these PrCs are concerned, they seem perfectly balanced mechanically, but I can see where some would have fluff issues with them. I personally just wouldn’t use them in my games and rather use some of the other great PrCs, such as the Wife of Nibenay or the Arena Champion. But, wasn’t the point of the thread to ask for feedback about the document? Don’t down people because they have fluff issues with some of the stuff, after all isn’t it the fluff that makes it Dark Sun? I mean, if fluff didn’t matter wouldn’t we all be playing in the vague, quasi-Greyhawk campaign presented in the core books?
Now, if I’m just misunderstanding you, and what you’re really saying is that the classes are fine mechanically and DM’s should make their own call as to use them or not; then I agree with you completely. However, If you’re saying that fluff shouldn’t be taken into account when DMing or designing mechanics, then I cannot disagree with you more.
I’d like to thank Jon for his work on this document. There is a lot of great stuff in here that will be very useful in my campaign. I’m looking forward to the second volume of this document, especially as it will apparently include more racial specific classes. I basically agree with you and Nyt that those who don’t like these alternate energy classes just shouldn’t use them, but I can see where their concerns are coming from. I hope that you can accept their criticisms in the friendly spirit that most of them seem to be intended.
Preservers don't do any harm to the plants they draw from whatsoever. They borrow a little energy, and even return what they doon't use.
Actually, they do. They just exercise more care than the defiler so that the plantlife isn't -permanently-(turned to ash) damaged. Thats one of the tell-tale signs that a wizard is in the area. Thats whats incites the riots. When plants starts drooping, and there is some stranger in funky garb around, people don't think.
"Hey, that could be a shaman, or maybe a psionicist."
Instead, they think..
"Its a wizard! String him up!"
Cite a specific canon reference to the fact that a preserver causes plants to wilt. I challenge you to find ONE. It doesn't happen. Every document I've read, and I own EVERY DARK SUN PRODUCT EVER MADE, says no harm is caused.
Someone help me out here? I know I read it in one of the books. Problem is, all my books were in PDF, and on my HD at work. I lost access to them when I was layed off. Was probably either the Core Rules or Defilers and Preservers.
Besides, I can't imagine the average commoner being able to tell the difference between Elemental Priestly magic, and Arcane Magic. Yet they revere the elemental, and despise the arcane. The only clue they'd have to go on would be the local plant life.
Now, if you want to go out on a limb and say the plants wilt for a split second or so before the preserver can replace the energy, then more power to you, but I wouldn't make it an automatic "mob sees and attacks poor preserver" thing, I would make it some sort of Spot check with a huge DC, maybe 20, and add modifiers to subtract or add to it as you see fit.
That's my 2 ceramic anyways.
Someone help me out here? I know I read it in one of the books. Problem is, all my books were in PDF, and on my HD at work. I lost access to them when I was layed off. Was probably either the Core Rules or Defilers and Preservers.
There is no physical effect to the plants that a Preserver take the energy they need for their spells from. It does steal some energy from them, but not enough to make any physical mark. Otherwise, the Veiled Alliance would have a much harder time hiding their practices within a city.
Besides, I can't imagine the average commoner being able to tell the difference between Elemental Priestly magic, and Arcane Magic. Yet they revere the elemental, and despise the arcane. The only clue they'd have to go on would be the local plant life.
I have the average commoner confusing all forms of magic, and those who have no personal psionic powers (or experience helping differentiate between them), to even confuse psionics and magic - ala Rikus in The Verdant Passage. I also tend to expect my players to roleplay accordingly, and tend to give some extra "roleplay" experience to those who can correctly separate player knowledge and character knowledge in that matter.
Someone help me out here? I know I read it in one of the books. Problem is, all my books were in PDF, and on my HD at work. I lost access to them when I was layed off. Was probably either the Core Rules or Defilers and Preservers.
So far as I know, it never explicitly states this anywhere. However page 10 of The Wanderer's Journal (from the first boxed set) does say this:
Preservers reinvigorate the soil after they drain it to power their spells. As Preservers learn their craft, they also learn to rekindle the spark of life. When they cast a spell, they replace what they have taken through a combination of natural and mystical processes (such as by working compost into the soil or by performing the Rite of Blood in the field they have drained).
This would imply that damage is done to the soil and plantlife, then later compensated for. However the rules always glossed over this. This may be what you were thinking of.
Someone help me out here? I know I read it in one of the books. Problem is, all my books were in PDF, and on my HD at work. I lost access to them when I was layed off. Was probably either the Core Rules or Defilers and Preservers.
Besides, I can't imagine the average commoner being able to tell the difference between Elemental Priestly magic, and Arcane Magic. Yet they revere the elemental, and despise the arcane. The only clue they'd have to go on would be the local plant life.
There might be something like this in one of the novels, but I don't recall any references to plant life wilting due to preserver magic in the game material - could be wrong, though.
There is a visible effect, however - Defilers & Preservers mentions that the life energy being drawn from the plants becomes visible during spellcasting ("The Color of Magic" sidebar, p12.) This effect (which also appears in the novels) is a sign that arcane magic is being used instead of psionics or divine magic.
To say that ‘Fluff’ doesn’t (or shouldn’t) affect rules makes no sense to me....
I agree with Draggah on this one. While fluff and mechanics are different, they inevitably support each other; this is the main objection to the alternative forms of energy being used in place of plant energy for wizards -- the cheapens the setting when any defiler of the appropriate level can take one level in a PrC and essentially void the greatest drawback of the class. It also raises several serious question concerning the Sorcerer Kings, and ascendant beings in general, such as why they need to limit their basic casting when, like any character, one level in the PrC removes their greatest limit. There's also the question of what these energies do to ascendant beings and the ascension process. And let's not forget Dregoth; the undead Sorcerer Kings would undoubtedly find the necromant PrC an essential asset, since, as an undead creature of massive power, there is no concievable way he would be harmed by harnessing massive amounts of gray energies for spells.
It is my opinion Cerulians, Necromants, and Shadow Wizards would work best as the settings Sorcerers and/or Warlocks. For example, the Black is supposed to be both an ultimate manifesation of creation and destruction in certain ways, so it is quite possible that Shadow Wizards are Athas' Sorcerers, learning to harness this energy in ways that are similar to Preservers and Defilers, but still distinctly different, just as Wizards and Sorcerers are similar, yet different.
Necromants, drawing on the Gray, might behave like Warlocks, gaining narrowly focused necromantic abilities that can be used a certain number of times per day, and power over undead, such as Rebuke Undead, by harnessing the power of the Gray.
Cerulians might go either way, being given a strict assortment of supernatural abilities, like a warlock, as investments from Tithian, or behave like sorcerers, with Tithian funneling them more mutable magical power.
Of course designing these classes this way would take variable amounts of effort. Making them all like sorcerers would be the easiest method, adjusting some extra abilities and spell lists (especially in the case of the Necromants) accordingly. They could be like 20 level PrCs, gaining what the current PrCs have at applicable levels; these classes are already very setting dependant as it is. If this is not acceptable, then the 20 level base class would simply be the prerequisite for the PrC. Designing a Warlock-like class would require much more effort, and this would probably be an unacceptable use of resources for relativly small setting elements. It would be nice, however.
So far as I know, it never explicitly states this anywhere. However page 10 of The Wanderer's Journal (from the first boxed set) does say this:Preservers reinvigorate the soil after they drain it to power their spells. As Preservers learn their craft, they also learn to rekindle the spark of life. When they cast a spell, they replace what they have taken through a combination of natural and mystical processes (such as by working compost into the soil or by performing the Rite of Blood in the field they have drained).
This would imply that damage is done to the soil and plantlife, then later compensated for. However the rules always glossed over this. This may be what you were thinking of.
This may have been it. I think I recall mention of the Rite of Blood. What I gathered from this was that when Preservers cast spells, energy is taken from them, causing them to droop a bit, but not causing them to turn to ash, like a defiler would.
I have the average commoner confusing all forms of magic, and those who have no personal psionic powers (or experience helping differentiate between them), to even confuse psionics and magic - ala Rikus in The Verdant Passage. I also tend to expect my players to roleplay accordingly, and tend to give some extra "roleplay" experience to those who can correctly separate player knowledge and character knowledge in that matter.
I don't know. I think they'd be aware of some difference. Villages in the wastes often have shamans of some sort. In the cities of the SK, there are sometimes elemental shrines, tended to by one or more elemental priests. But I don't think people confuse these with wizards. And in cities, the average guy knows that psionics exist, as there are schools for psionics.
If people couldn't tell at least some difference between magics, elemental clerics and psions should be just as ready to hide their "magic" as wizards. But that doesn't seem to be the impression I get.
Except it doesn't make sense to move the fundamental ability of the class to another level, especially considering the three classes were available from level 1 in 2E.
Hmm, you are right. Than maybe the number of spells powered by the alternative energy source could be tied to the taint/corruption, like in the case of defilers.
I dropped the original plan to have the classes available as core classes in order to please those concerns you are voicing now about watering out defiling and preserving - without stomping too much on the toes of those who wanted them as core classes.
Bombing people with TNT is not good, even if it is better than bombing them with nukes. Lesser wrong is still wrong. Yes, PrC is a better solution than a core class, but the PrC should be good in itself.
I've already shown you how little mechanical effect the alternative source has on the game.
I don't worry because these classes are overpowered (they are not), and I don't worry because they are abusable (every PrC is). But I worry because they are abusable on a way which greatly effects the Dark Sun feeling. Hopefully a lot of people will use these rules. There will be newbies. There will be who doesn't have the routine and experience as most of the forum members here. Building in a safety measure doesn't hurt. And I think if the DM wants to change something it's much easier for him to say: 'I don't use this requirement' than 'well, I should find out something to counter this thing, what should it be, let's think...'
Old dogs handle everything easier. But there are always newbies. Think back when you started to play RPGs, and you run into such things which turned an otherwise good adventure/campaign into thrash. Wouldn't be nice to avoid it?
SIDE NOTE - Hey Jon, have you ever thought about converting the alternate caster types into a group of feats, instead? I like the way you've done things so far, but I was thinking that it would be an easy way to fix some of the gripes people have been having, and it would give a little of that nostalgic old-school "kit" flavor to the alternate caster types, as well as resolve the whole issue of "You can just take one level and go back to gaining wizard levels". It would completely circumvent that issue, and if a DM doesn't want someone to have it, they can just not tell them about the feat or just say it's "trained only" and not let an NPC teach them!
But I can see where some people are getting upset on the prestige classes for the alternate sources of arcane casting. There is a simple and elegant solution, that actually has precident in the D&D systems. (several of the necromancer specific prestige classes from WOTC require you to have made friendly contact with intelligent undead, which could be similiar to here.)
With the Ceruleans gaining their power from the voices from the tyr storm or from studying the tyr storms, there are 2 easy answers..... either make it an rp requirement like below or make it a feat they have to take. ("voices of the storm" or something)
Ceruleans = Must have been trained by another Cerulean, or contact with the power of the tyr storms. (possibly have spent a period of time exposed to the ravages of a tyr storm while casting. Not quite sure on this one.)
On the necromant, for someone to understand the gray enough to be able to draw power form it is normally going to require them to either be undead or deal with them a great deal. Someone in a fertile field with no access to undead is not going to be able to come across the power. (and that is one of the big issues with the requirements..... limiting who "could" learn it.)
Necromant = Must have been trained by another Necromant, or had peaceful contact with an undead arcane caster.
Now if I remember correctly from the old 2ed stuff, they even mentioned that the shadow wizards kit was for those trained by the shadow giants. (after they had learned their lesson with giving too much power to sadira. Been a while since I read up on the alternate sources though so I could be wrong.) And tryin to link to the black on your own I think would be the most difficult of the three, especially since it has such long reaching effects on the character. (what with actually infusing shadow into their being.)
Shadow wizard = Must have been trained by another Shadow wizard, or by the Shadow giants.
These restrictions alone prevent the dipping into the prestige classes to hide their talents.... as it will be up to the DM if the player can find a mentor who is willing to train them. Not to mention the fact that someone willing to go through the trouble of finding these sources, let alone convincing them to train them makes for some great rp possibilities.
Just tossing out my opinion on the subject.
Once again Jon, great job.
SIDE NOTE - Hey Jon, have you ever thought about converting the alternate caster types into a group of feats, instead? I like the way you've done things so far, but I was thinking that it would be an easy way to fix some of the gripes people have been having, and it would give a little of that nostalgic old-school "kit" flavor to the alternate caster types, as well as resolve the whole issue of "You can just take one level and go back to gaining wizard levels". It would completely circumvent that issue, and if a DM doesn't want someone to have it, they can just not tell them about the feat or just say it's "trained only" and not let an NPC teach them!
My initial suggestion for the alternative wizards had feats called Gray Casting, Cerulean Casting and Shadow Casting that served as prereqs for the classes and those wanting to explore the paths of the various energy sources in detail, but that concept was shot down by the community or internally (can't recall which right now, it's long ago).
I don't know. I think they'd be aware of some difference. Villages in the wastes often have shamans of some sort. In the cities of the SK, there are sometimes elemental shrines, tended to by one or more elemental priests. But I don't think people confuse these with wizards. And in cities, the average guy knows that psionics exist, as there are schools for psionics.
If people couldn't tell at least some difference between magics, elemental clerics and psions should be just as ready to hide their "magic" as wizards. But that doesn't seem to be the impression I get.
Actually, if you read the novels, and the "fluff", you'll tend to find that the common slave has usually no idea, or even remote interest in figuring out the difference between them all. Those which do, generally have professed some ability with one or the other. Psionics are common enough that they are easily overlooked, and readily explained if needed. I personally never liked the idea of elemental shrines within the cities - and I place them in remoe locations around the tablelands that are focused to a specific element. I also, for the most part, have the Templars usually kicking out all other Divine magic-users than themselves, when given the chance - as they tend to want a totalitarian rule over the dogma of the city. Ther are some Sorcerer-Kings that make this impossible for their Templars, but that doesn't mean the Templars don't give up on tarnishing the names of any Druid or Cleric that has been afforded the King's protection. I also usually have Druids nowhere near the cities if they can avoid it, and Clerics generally are more nomadic and don't stay in a city their whole life.
For my city-states, the "lowly commoners" are frequently slaves. Sure, there's some exceptions to this rule (as I do play in the setting after the events of the Prism Pentad), but that's my usual rule of thumb. I also don't play characters as if they know all the events of all the novels and game materials (and if any of my players exhibit signs of doing such a thing, then I start revising the world to make the knowledge they've professed knowing to no longer be accurate). People are also illiterate, and very superstitious. As such, they are quick to state something is magic - the most feared and loathed power in the world, until they are explained otherwise.
When considering this issue, it must be taken into account that in a DS campaign, a wizard is inherently at a disadvantage because they are linked to terrain type and reaction of the masses and such. Therefore, you're not getting your level's worth of power and it's like you're wasting some of your XP every time you take a level ,compared to any other class. Taking one of these prestige classes helps heal that rift. That's why these alternate caster types are so important, because the wizard is inherently broken and this is the fix. I't bet my left nad that this is the reason they were introduced in the original 2E set. Alternate caster types merely bring the wizard up to par, so you're not being cheated on your rewards for all that adventuring you do to earn the XP.
This is a bit of a flawed argument. The only Defilers would benefit from what you describe in great fasion -- they would still be wizards and still be visible as such unless they conceal their actions and excerise subtly. This isn't a problem, since Defilers were supposed to suffer draw backs for their increased power; preservering's only flaw was the social stigma associated with it, and has no other drawbacks such as terrain limiations (except for the Obsidian Planes), etc.
I may try to create some myself.
I think the focus of this thread has derailed. Try to keep it prestige class focused, and I don't think we're getting anywhere with the ceruluan et al discussion. Input on other classes, anyone?
This is why I post here so seldom. The work that has been done is great and no one is refuting that. However, give some constructive criticism (backed by what seems 4/5 of the people posting) and receive a cold shoulder in return. Taking into account possible flaws, imbalances, or game breakers will only help make the product stronger, alleviate some of the headaches a DM will face, and make a system "less" exploitable. Posing an argument that all is well because there is some precedent means nothing if that too was flawed.
This community is your best resource. It is too bad that any opposition or genuine concern is often met with "snippy and snide" comments or a general "I am right you are wrong" type of attitude.
It is too bad that any opposition or genuine concern is often met with "snippy and snide" comments or a general "I am right you are wrong" type of attitude.
I'm sorry your perspective sees it that way. I don't see any of us being on that level, whether it's regarding this issue or other issues.
/me shrugs
I think the focus of this thread has derailed. Try to keep it prestige class focused, and I don't think we're getting anywhere with the ceruluan et al discussion. Input on other classes, anyone?
The Shadow class. Seems a bit unreasonable. We have an group here that requires a lot of organization and planning, being run by elves who are flighty and known for living in the moment. It seems a little strange.
My impression from what I've read about the Shadows was that they were more a clan of bandits and thugs, than any well-organized covert group. In that vein, maybe instead give them bonuses to initiative and as in the original, extra sneak attack damage. Maybe the ability to Take 10 or 20 on search checks when searching for loot.
Course, I could be all wrong, but thats what I remember.
Or instead, make it so that arcane casters levels don't stack with arcane caster levels gained from these PrC. What I mean is this. Suppose you know Fireball, a third level spell as a Preserver. Now say you take a level in say Shadow Wizard. You wouldn't be able to cast Fireball using Shadow energy until 4th level in the PrC, because thats when you gain access to 3rd levels spells.
Am I being coherent here?
Thoughts?
I think the focus of this thread has derailed. Try to keep it prestige class focused, and I don't think we're getting anywhere with the ceruluan et al discussion. Input on other classes, anyone?
Actually, I'm still waiting for an answer.
Also I've a question regarding the Black Cassock.
Text describes the templars of Tyr as spelless after the dead of Kalak, but to become a Black Cassock you must have the ability to cast spells. In addition, with increasing class-levels the spellcasting class increase too.
So my question is: How can you become a Black Cassock, when you're not able to cast spells spontaneously?
This is why I post here so seldom. The work that has been done is great and no one is refuting that. However, give some constructive criticism (backed by what seems 4/5 of the people posting) and receive a cold shoulder in return. Taking into account possible flaws, imbalances, or game breakers will only help make the product stronger, alleviate some of the headaches a DM will face, and make a system "less" exploitable. Posing an argument that all is well because there is some precedent means nothing if that too was flawed.
This community is your best resource. It is too bad that any opposition or genuine concern is often met with "snippy and snide" comments or a general "I am right you are wrong" type of attitude.
The funny thing is - when people post an "opposition" as you claim, the responses weren't anything other than people with a different view, showing how they got it to work. It wasn't any official statements saying that their "opposition" was bad - just other people who play & love Dark Sun responding to the discussion with their own counter-arguements. As Nyt said - it's a shame you feel the way you do, because honestly, I just plain don't see what you're making an issue out of, as being really there.
So my question is: How can you become a Black Cassock, when you're not able to cast spells spontaneously?
From the prestige class doc: "Must have or had ability to spontaneously cast 2nd level divine spells."
Good point. The requirement should probably be changed to reflect the fact that even after Kalak's death, new templars are appointed by Tithian or whoever runs the city. Does replacing that part of the requirement with Secular Authority solve the issue in your opinion?
The spell progression is there because some people run campaigns prior to Kalak's death. A note should probably be added somewhere, in the Core Rules, in the Prestige Class Appendix, or both, concering this.
The Shadow class. Seems a bit unreasonable. We have an group here that requires a lot of organization and planning, being run by elves who are flighty and known for living in the moment. It seems a little strange.
My impression from what I've read about the Shadows was that they were more a clan of bandits and thugs, than any well-organized covert group. In that vein, maybe instead give them bonuses to initiative and as in the original, extra sneak attack damage. Maybe the ability to Take 10 or 20 on search checks when searching for loot.
Reread page 59 of Dune Trader and let me know if you still feel the same way. I'd say the Shadows are very well organized.
So my question is: How can you become a Black Cassock, when you're not able to cast spells spontaneously?
Hmm, I suppose this issue would apply not only to Tyrian templars, but to other cities that have lost their sorcerer-monarch as well...
The PrC for Andropinis' templars post-emprisonment can give divine spellcasting powers, and you know the reasons for that, but its different for the tyrian templars.
If the Black Cassock PrC can give you divine spellcasting powers after Kalak's death, then I think its a big mistake (even if you go RaFoaDK on this, Abbey did not have Sacha and Wyan dispense Lens magic to Tithian's templars...).
Which isn't the case. Any templar who loses his or her liege loses the ability to cast spells. Since several have asked questions about this, I will add a note to each templar prestige class which clarifies this.
The PrC for Andropinis' templars post-emprisonment can give divine spellcasting powers, and you know the reasons for that, but its different for the tyrian templars.
Except they gain arcane spellcasting ability (this is based on information in Dregoth Ascending).
Which isn't the case. Any templar who loses his or her liege loses the ability to cast spells. Since several have asked questions about this, I will add a note to each templar prestige class which clarifies this.
That reminds me of something else. Wouldn't it be appropriate to design PrCs for ex-templar? Are there any planed for the next release?
http://athas.org/releases/prc/Prestigeclasses3_5.pdf
I cant help but agree with you on this. I can understand that DM's have the authority to say no...but what if the DM realizes after the PC's take this PrC. Example: Player 1 has made a 7th Defiler and has enough xp to gain another lvl. He decides to go Shadow Wizard as lvl 8. He plays this character throughout lvl 8 and is enjoying it. Now he has enough xp for lvl 9, he switchs back to defiler to avoid all the negative stuff coming from the shadow wizard PrC. Now Player 1 has played this character for an entire lvl, most likely 4-5 game sessions. The DM THEN finds out how BROKEN the rules are for this PrC and comes up with a dilema that might ruin his/her campaign.
Does the Dm strip the player of his PrC that he has been playing for sometime? Or does he continue to let the player abuse the rules that others couldnt solve/come up with a balanced way to make it fair?
This is a practial example that WILL come up for the HUNDREDS of people who look on athas.org and play DS. Instead of a balanced game like the other Wotc products they bring out they notice that DS is the game where unbalanced mechanics run unchecked.
If there can be someway to moderate the abilities of these overpowered PrC's we have been talking about I would be much more willing to allow ALL of these PrC's into the games that I play/run. Instead of just putting them on the shelf and saying..."well...that could have been a good idea".
-introneurotic
I really have to agree with the revisionist camp. This is a really good point and gets to the heart of what I think other people have been talking about, in taking the need to moderate out of the DM's hands when nessessary.
Obviously you have to trust DM's to run their own games, but if there is a quick fix that can be made with a single requirement or a slight progression adjustment, than why resist it so much. The special requirement for the Cerulean certainly helps, but how does one learn how to craft a Blue Lens focus, is it just a matter of having the necessary ranks in Craft (Optics).
Honestly I think the most basic flaw in these prestige classes is how easy they are to get into. Player's could almost take a level in them at a whim. I mean seriously, a few skill ranks and one feat. Most prestige classes in the Complete Arcane have more requirements than that, and many many of them have special requirements.
As a special requirement for the Necromant perhaps you could use: must have visited the grey on more than one occasion and or you could require them to have Spell Focus (Necromancy) to take the class.
Sorry for the harshness of my post. I do really like all the Presitge classes and will even use them without changes. (I can change them myself anyway) But I do think they can be easily abused as written. Being able to cast spells without defiling is really powerful for defilers and shouldn't be given too lightly.
I really think that the trader deserves a base class... I mean what if I want to run a character who isn't a backstabing thief or poison using entertainer who has the skills necessary to be a proper trader. I know its not to exciting, but I dunno maybe it would be better as an NPC class.
The Expert NPC class can be used to generate traders.
As a special requirement for the Necromant perhaps you could use: must have visited the grey on more than one occasion and or you could require them to have Spell Focus (Necromancy) to take the class.
I don't think we can use having physically visited the Grey as a requirement, as that would eliminate almost all the undead arcane spellcasters in the Deadlands region. Spell Focus (Necromancy) is a good suggestion.
F.Y.I.
.Honestly I think the most basic flaw in these prestige classes is how easy they are to get into.
just to add my pov in this matter and agree. Not all DM's are experienced DM's and not even the most experience necessarily in their gaming group. Also, maybe they are new to DS and unaware of its fluff. Its all very well to say that the DM has final control over which PrC's can be taken but in 3e DM's can come under great pressure to justify their reasons when it comes to why or why not a certain PrC or feat can or cannot be taken. As a public document I think there is a responsibility to a degree protect the inexperienced DM who does not have a great understanding either the fluff or the strength of an argument as to why certain PrC's should not be cherry picked
It is easier for an experienced DS DM to drop an 'organisation' PrC requirement than it is for an inexperienced DS DM to introduce it
No, it is draqoman - see City State of Tyr, page 82
Perhaps that was a typo as well? :P
Perhaps that was a typo as well? :P
As far as I can tell Draqoman is an invented word based on Dragoman.
As far as I can tell Draqoman is an invented word based on Dragoman.
I don't mean to nag you guys here over such pettiness, I really don't, but ask yourselves: why would someone replace one letter in a word and use that new word to describe the exact same thing as the old word?
It's got to be a typo.
But hey, this is your guy's project, right?
Just thought I'd try and help...
I don't mean to nag you guys here over such pettiness, I really don't, but ask yourselves: why would someone replace one letter in a word and use that new word to describe the exact same thing as the old word?
It's got to be a typo.
But hey, this is your guy's project, right?
Just thought I'd try and help...
:D
It's not a typo, really. The word appears dozens of times in City State of Tyr. I always saw it as a daft Athasian variant on the spelling of "draco". I mean, this is the setting where the biggest bad guy is called Boris... :P
The prosecution uh, gives up, your honour. :P
The Expert NPC class can be used to generate traders.
Noooo Jon, noooooo. The Expert is a NPC class as you said. The Traders ( I will say again and again) are a MAJOR part of athas. And as Ruhl-Than Sage said, they DO deserve a PC class, not a NPC one. These Traders are more than just "simple" merchant; they are Trader in a Merchant House.
Thanks.
The DMG states that the Expert class can by taken as a PC class for those interested in playing a less combat oriented character (as a trader would be). :D
You're welcome.
An independent trader would be that much more inclined to learn a little bit of everything when it comes to defending themselves (or killing others, depending on your point of view ;) ), their goods, and their all-important clients.
And if you really think about it, an independent trader would be the closest thing to true adventurer that Athas has to offer. They see everything while in search of everything. They have to fight off everything to keep everything. And considering how brutal Athas really is, that everything dictates that that individual possesses the know-how to survive. And survival on Athas means being a Beast amongst Beasts.
A less combat-oriented character my arse. :P
Well actually...
The DMG states that the Expert class can by taken as a PC class for those interested in playing a less combat oriented character (as a trader would be). :D
You're welcome.
While that is true, it doesn't stack up to other PC classes. If it had bonus feats similar to a Fighter, but with a skill/trade oriented list however...
Of course as Crimson Ghost pointed out it is very dangerous to be a traveling trader especially an indepentant one, so some combat related feats would make sense to. But, this has nothing to do with the Prestige Classes really.
Well actually...
The DMG states that the Expert class can by taken as a PC class for those interested in playing a less combat oriented character (as a trader would be). :D
You're welcome.
And you treat them as -1 level (NPC class) for the purposes of Experience Awards.
So your Aarakocra (LA+1) Expert (Trader) (LA -1) gets XP based on his CLASS level...
it is very dangerous to be a traveling trader especially an indepentant one, so some combat related feats would make sense to. But, this has nothing to do with the Prestige Classes really.
Sure it does.
The Dune Trader prestige class misrepresents the traders of Athas.
But then again, I spell draqoman with a "g", and clerical magic is no different to me than wizard magic... :P
Kam, some of the clerics only have three domains to choose from. A fourth domain wouldn't work.
Do they? Unless I am missing something, Earth and Fire have five domains and the others all have four... or am I being a witless kank?
It is totally up to the DM to regulate their game and players.
The rules in all RPG's are open to be used and/or thrown out by the DM as they see fit.
Anyway, I noticed a small problem with the Tik-Tik PrC requirements:
Requirements
To qualify to become a tik-tik, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Thri-kreen
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: Survival 5 ranks.
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (chatkcha, gythka, ko*, kyorkcha, lajav, or zerka), Toughness
However:
Weapon Familiarity: To thri-kreen, the chatkcha and gythka are treated as martial rather than exotic weapons. These weapons are more common among thri-kreen than among other races.
Unless I'm missing something, chatkcha and gythka aren't eligible for Exotic Weapon feats, which means that the Tik-Tik's requirements should list only ko*, kyorkcha, lajav and zerka. Really minor, but still...
On a side note - and this isn't exactly playtest feedback since I have yet to play this class - I feel that the Tik-Tik is a bit underpowered.
I'm about to play a Thri-Kreen and was hoping to be the party's primary meat shield, which is why I was checking this PrC, but I'm having a hard time convincing myself to progress further into the class than a 1-3 level dip.
I'm skeptical of the Tik-Tik's capacity to survive, at least without heavy armor (iffy, when it comes to Kreen) and lots of magical items (iffy, when it comes to Athas). The HP loss brought on by two Racial HD and a +1 LA doesn't help either.
Has anyone played a Tik-Tik before? Comments? Advice?
Unless I'm missing something, chatkcha and gythka aren't eligible for Exotic Weapon feats, which means that the Tik-Tik's requirements should list only ko*, kyorkcha, lajav and zerka. Really minor, but still...
They can still be eligible choices for kreen that don't have access to martial weapons. Meaning, for kreen that aren't of a class that offers martial weapon proficiency as a class feature.
Granted, now the question becomes on why would a kreen choose exotic weapon proficiency over taking martial weapon proficiency? Perhaps the requirement should be changed to the following:
Feats: Weapon Focus (chatkcha, gythka, ko*, kyorkcha, lajav, or zerka), Toughness
They can still be eligible choices for kreen that don't have access to martial weapons. Meaning, for kreen that aren't of a class that offers martial weapon proficiency as a class feature.
I'm not sure, but I think that the fact that those two weapons are treated as martial when it comes to Kreen prevents them from being eligible for the Exotic Weapon feat because they aren't exotic anymore. It would be akin to a human wizard buying the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (longsword) feat. Talk about technicality, huh?
Feats: Weapon Focus (chatkcha, gythka, ko*, kyorkcha, lajav, or zerka), Toughness
Yes, that would be better.
Also, I'll reiterate that this PrC seems a bit weak. Compare with the Dwarven Guardian, for instance.
I've been wanting to comment on that little Thri-Kreen meat-shiled PRC for a long time.
It seems to me that for its chosen role (Being tough, protecting friends) the PRC is inferior to simply taking fighter, and going for board control feats. Whatever its intended purpose, the PRC nets you two free (really bad) feats, 10 hit points (on average) over fighter, and the ability to jump in front of a strike aimed at someone standing next to you (how many party members can you stand next to at once, without turning the whole party into fireball bait?) Better to get a reach weapon and go for being a tar-baby.
Also noted: The PRC compendium does seem to have a bit of "Elves and Draj" going on.
Im generally happy that the target balance point on the PRCs is generally lower than WoTC 3.5 PRCs (you seem to be aiming at the original DMG PRCs, rather than the ever-better replacements, for your balance point). Im very happy with flavour, and with the 3.5 work in general. Starting a campaign soon, going to be using Athas.org stuff as a jumping off point (with minor modifications, aint we all?)
But, yeah.. the Thri-Kreen Bodyguard is just bad, mmkay?
It seems to me that for its chosen role (Being tough, protecting friends) the PRC is inferior to simply taking fighter, and going for board control feats. Whatever its intended purpose, the PRC nets you two free (really bad) feats, 10 hit points (on average) over fighter, and the ability to jump in front of a strike aimed at someone standing next to you (how many party members can you stand next to at once, without turning the whole party into fireball bait?)
That's my analysis as well. I agree completely.
Better to get a reach weapon and go for being a tar-baby.
Curiously, an early version of that PrC done by Brax gave the Tik-Tik large size and reach over the course of 10 levels.
Curiously, an early version of that PrC done by Brax gave the Tik-Tik large size and reach over the course of 10 levels.
Does it also give them an abdomen?
Does it also give them an abdomen?
I think you mean Thorax;)
Concerning the feat requirements, Weapon Focus may be a better choice, except if you go for one of the other exotic weapons (ko, kyorkcha, lajav, or zerka), you would have to spend two feats to get into the class. Requirements are also part of the balance package. Getting into the class is fairly easy as it is now, which helps to explain why the class doesn´t have superpowerful abilities.
I agree that the Tik-tik isn´t the most powerful class, but it fills a niché and a part of kreen culture.
I’m not complaining about its flavour. From the requirements down to the bonus feats, nearly every feature fits the flavour. The class is generally flavourful.
Also, the Tik-Tik was a cool kit from one of the coolest 2E books about one of the most distinctively Athasian races in the setting, so I’m certainly not disputing that a Tik-Tik PrC is a must.
What bothers me is that the class, as it is, is most ineffective at filling its assigned niche.
There are many prestige classes that do not scream "gotta have it" in D&D mechanically speaking, and this is one of them. I think you are overlooking the fact that it has d12 hd and 4+ int mod skill points per level. You should be comparing it to a barbarian, not a fighter. Is a barbarian that much better off?
From level 7 through 17 the Barbarian nets: two extra Rages/day, Damage Reduction 4/-, +3 Trap Sense, Greater Rage (extra +2 to Str and Con, and +1 to Will), Indomitable Will (+4 vs. Enchantments) and Tireless Rage (no fatigue after Rage). These are good class features which complement the previous 6 levels of the class nicely by offseting the vulnerabilities of the Barbarian, such as bad AC or low Will and Ref saves, and by making him better at what he’s good at: dealing lots of melee damage quickly.
From level 1 through 10 the Tik-Tik nets: two flavorful but fairly weak feats, +3 natural armor, and Guardian 3/round. The natural AC bonus is nice, but by itself it’s far from enough to sustain the class. The fireball problem aside, I rather like the Guardian feature since I figure it’s good for protecting spellcasters until they do their thing, and for other similar uses. However, repeated use of it will lead to certain death, which severely limits the Guardian feature’s effectiveness. Armour usage (which the kreen didn’t do in 2E, but since it’s 3.5 maybe now they do) helps, but not enough.
It’s not a terrible class. But it barely offsets the kreen’s combat vulnerabilities, namely the HP loss and the low AC (without armor). It does not improve in any way (other than the BAB progression) the character’s damage-dealing capabilities, which kind of goes against the “hunter-of-hunters” theme. And it’s ability to protect other party members either isn’t significantly enhanced or will get him killed quickly.
It frustrates me that a character who becomes a Tik-Tik would be better off sticking to his own class, and would possibly do his job better if he did.
Concerning the feat requirements, Weapon Focus may be a better choice, except if you go for one of the other exotic weapons (ko, kyorkcha, lajav, or zerka), you would have to spend two feats to get into the class.
Conversely, the Exotic Weapon feat requirement isn’t optimal for those that wish to focus on the gythka and the chaktcha, which are the primary thri-kreen weapons anyway. Since a character that goes full Tik-Tik will probably be feat-starved and focused on melee (and hence on the gythka), Weapon Focus probably hurts him less.
Actually, as long as the class is balanced I don’t really mind it either way. I was just commenting that the exotic weapon list was (AFAIK) incorrect.
Requirements are also part of the balance package.
Quite. The Exotic Weapon/Weapon Focus thing apart, Toughness is a *very* weak feat. Being forced to take one (possibly two, depending on the build) weak/unhelpful feat(s) to qualify for the Tik-Tik further weakens the PrC.
Getting into the class is fairly easy as it is now, which helps to explain why the class doesn´t have superpowerful abilities.
Not really true. +5 BAB is a straightforward requirement, and all it takes to qualify for it as early as possible is taking levels in fighting classes only.
However, the thri-kreen has +1LA. It takes ECL 6 to qualify for this PrC, which means that the requirements are steeper than most.
Tik-tik are usually barbarians or rangers. Rangers are natural candidates, with their extensive knowledge of the wastes and its creatures, while barbarians possess a ferocious battle fever that makes the tik-tik an even stronger and more enduring combatant.
But the TKoA description of the kit states that:
Character Class: This kit is open to a fighter or fighter/psionicist. Rangers are barred. Tik-Tik must have a starting Strength of no less than 16 and an adjusted starting Dexterity of no more than 18.
Role: The Tik-Tik is an indifferent hunter, but acts as a guardian for those less able to fend for themselves.
I presume that this was unintentional. If not, I must say that while I’m not necessarily against changes from canon in general, I do question this particular one.
Also, from the thri-kreen entry in ds3_r6:
Likewise, despite their wild nature, thri-kreen are rarely barbarians, since their innate memories allow them to gain more specialized classes such as ranger and psychic warrior without training.
Of course, those that become Tik-Tik could be the exception. However, Rage and the Guardian class ability don’t really mesh well – the combination is truly suicidal.
IMHO, the main choice for Tik-Tik builds should be the Fighter, both from the flavour perspective and for the gaming one.
Am I missing something?
Talking about PrCs; is there any point in taking Black Cassock? The fluff implies it is extant after Kalaks death.
Am I missing something?
Kalak may be no more, but the Tyrian templarate still lives. King Tithian was a templar and, even after his death, Rikus and Sadira weren't able to terminate the templarate, I believe.
The spellcasting abilities gone, though.
The npc is now King of Tyr and the pcs are in a very uneasy alliance with him - PCs are good, npc (after a helm of alignment changing) lawfull evil.
So it the Black Cassock actually did our campaign a great deal of good.
IMHO, the main choice for Tik-Tik builds should be the Fighter, both from the flavour perspective and for the gaming one.
It was certainly not the intention to contradict material elsewhere. You may be right that the fighter path should be empasized and the others toned down.