Cam Banks wrote:
In my opinion, the Solamnic Knights do not really worship specific gods all that much but the Order as a whole. The Knights of The Rose may be "favored" by Paladine but ultimately, the gods of Light are who they serve in general rather than with specifics.
Sturm might have worshipped Paladine above all other gods before he became a Knight of The Crown. He wouldn't start worshipping Habbuluk just because he was a Crown knight.
Equally likely, a Fishing village Solamnic wouldn't lose his respect for Habbuluk just because he became a Rose Knight.
They're all the same family anyway.
In the case of the Sword Knights, they gained limited clerical powers from Kiri-Jolith even though they, like all Solamnic Knights, hold Paladine as highest of the True Gods. There's no reason to believe that this changed when the knight progressed into the Order of the Rose having acquired clerical spells earlier. Again, Paladine is held highest, and Kiri-Jolith provides the knight with his spells as mandated by their original triune compact at Whitestone Glade.
It does seem as if the best way to represent the spells of Sword Knights is to use paladin spell progression (i.e. even fewer spells than suggested by the War of the Lance sourcebook), and not provide the Rose Knights with any spells at all. This would solve a multitude of problems.
Cheers,
Cam
I think Tracy's original intent, which is admittedly wound up in the notion of only Sword Knights having clerical powers, was for Paladine to be the highest of gods revered by the Knights, with Kiri-Jolith and Habbakuk serving as twin pillars supporting their father. This divine patronage has nothing at all to do, centrally, with the granting of spells or abilities; rather, it was set up to give each of the three Orders an ideal to embody, a theme for each Measure which the knights uphold. The Measure of the Crown Knight embodies loyalty, good nature, etc. The Measure of the Sword Knight embodies piety and just warfare. The Measure of the Rose Knight embodies justice and wisdom.
Good way of phrasing that.
It does seem as if the best way to represent the spells of Sword Knights is to use paladin spell progression (i.e. even fewer spells than suggested by the War of the Lance sourcebook), and not provide the Rose Knights with any spells at all. This would solve a multitude of problems.
Yeah, no doubt. No more worrying about where a Rose Knight's spells come from, which god he got his spells from, etc.
Had it not been for mysticism, I would have thought that Sword Knights would have had a spell progression like the Blackguard, then gain cleric spells.
Thus far, the spellcasting variants from War of the Lance have been my faves. I think the Sword Knight variant works best with the old Tales of the Lance progression (don't remember if that's the same as DLA or not).
The Rose Knight...it's so overpowered anyway, it isn't funny. Half progression is much better and a good compromise. Lately, though, I wonder if dropping the Rose Knight's spell progression altogether would be better.
*shrugs*
Mostly I'm concerned about the Knighthood swallowing the Church of Kiri-Jolith, which is why I'm not too keen on that diety being the sole patron. I'd rather have Habbakuk, Kiri-Jolith, and Majere or Mishakal taking over patronage of the Rose Knights. I probably favour Majere more, since he has rose iconography already.
I think the blackguard spell progression would be much better, because it makes clerics of Kiri-Jolith much more relevant. Otherwise you simply grab a cleric as a Sword Knight to take advantage of the better +1 spell progression. With a blackguard spell progression you're encouraged to start out with a Fighter or Paladin.
Mostly I'm concerned about the Knighthood swallowing the Church of Kiri-Jolith, which is why I'm not too keen on that diety being the sole patron. I'd rather have Habbakuk, Kiri-Jolith, and Majere or Mishakal taking over patronage of the Rose Knights. I probably favour Majere more, since he has rose iconography already.
This is actually something that's very important to my character and now I'm seriously wondering what to do (and what Holy Order of Stars will say because I'm also afraid Branchala won't have clerics).
Basically, my Knight of the Rose worked his way up from being a Knight of the Crown to being trained by priests of Habbuluk (which was an odd twist from Kiri Jonilith or Paladin) into being a cleric before going on to become a Knight of the Sword. I suppose its possible he might be a Mystic who just happens to revere Habbuluk but that seems to seriously remove a great deal of his background.
In any case, Amber and Ashes has a Priest of Kiri-Jonilith and he's definitely not a Knight of Solamnia so good for us.
I'd also like to say I personally don't mind the huge ass spell list for knights of Solamnia. Knights of Solamnia have to fulfill an incredible number of prestige class requirements and more or less have to follow a Paladin's code of honor with the Honorbound requirements in order to get abilities that are largely gotten by a Paladin very early.
Giving them a Cleric spell list seems not to be that harmful. Especially when they lose 2 HP from their Hit dice.
My two cents.....when a future knight is a squire and is "indoctrinated" at the High Clerists Tower, as was tradition before the Cataclysm, such a Knight would dedicate themselves to Paladine at that time. ANd while I am sure the Measure demands a Knight of Solamnia honor the followers of Mishakall, Majere, and the other gods of light (probably not Solinari as much) and there is also no doubt provisions demanding respect Reorx, Gilean, and others.
As a Knight advances thru the Knighthood, at different times, a Crown Knight probably opens his prayers with something to Paladine but ends them with Paladine. ANd so on as they advance. BUt at all times, yes, I don't think they 'look down' on those deity's ,I gaurantee you that.
The Knights of Solamnia revere the Solamnic Triumvirate, each one representing an order of the knighthood. They don't revere just one, they revere all three.
And, as evidenced by Amber and Ashes, the church of Kiri-Jolith and the Sword Knights are not one and the same, although I'm sure they work closely together, especially in the spiritual training of the Knights of Solamnia.
So it seems to me that a cleric of Paladine would advance through the orders, and become a Knight of the Rose. Yes, he serves in the Sword Knights, but that's okay because that's part of his spiritual progression, and that's the way of the universe.
Clerics of Kiri-Jolith are drawn to be Knights of the Sword, the order that exemplifies the ideals of their patron deity. Some may advance beyond that, but generally they don't since they too know their place in the universe. This changes in the Age of Mortals, where Paladine no longer is a deity. At that time, the clerics of Kiri-Jolith will work to fill the role of Sword Knight as well.
Clerics of Habbakuk are more rare in the orders since they're more nature focused. Yes, Habbakuk is a patron of the Crown Knights, but that's about as far as his support goes. One could advance to the level of Sword Knight, and while he may not be following Kiri-Jolith, that's okay since he, too, reveres the Solamnic Triumvirate as a whole. It would be rarer still for him to advance to Rose Knight, but it could be done, especially if he's a noble.
I think the big stumbling block is the idea that each order reveres one god, and that's all there is to it. Well, that's actually incorrect. They revere the entire Solamnic Triumvirate. They all know that each god gave inspiration to each of the orders, but that doesn't prohibit them from worshipping any of the three.
I hope that makes sense.
The Holy Orders only contain clerics. They don't contain paladins or druids or rangers or blackguards or any other divine spellcasting class. What does need to be emphasized is that not all characters who gain divine power from the gods are clerics, and clerics are not the only individuals who can worship the gods (obviously).
Cheers,
Cam
The Cleric level really throws me.
I'm starting to understand to a certain degree.
The Cleric level really throws me.
It's purely a game mechanics conceit, designed to get around the problem of multiple eras of Solamnic knights, and whether the knight is using mysticism or the power of the gods. It shouldn't have been seen as an actual indicator that the knight-to-be is a cleric in the Holy Orders. This is why having built-in spell progression would be better, as it eliminates the need for a cleric level and avoids confusion.
Cheers,
Cam
I do believe it is 100% appropriate for a Cleric to be drawn into an order of the KNightHood. Whether they are actual "knights" or just there as spiritual advisors, I am not sure. But a True Cleric of Paladine, or Kiri Jolith or Habakkuk, I am certain all knights will give them A LOT of respect and admiration if they are true clerics.
Now there are exceptions. Obviously, before Caramon's son's joined the order, there were not supposed to be Non-Solamnic Knights, and women were rare. But I do believe the Brother and Sisterhood of Paladine are viewed with respect and honor from the KNights.
ANd I am sure all Knights have a tremendous admiration for the followers of Mishakall, I remember once a player of mine whom was a Knight was always making sure he had the Triumverate's position within their house established with his new wife, whom was a fanatical worshipper of Mishakall. While they are all on the same side, I am sure both wanted their patrons in different positions, and it was a husband/wife thing there.
ANd I am sure all Knights have a tremendous admiration for the followers of Mishakall,
Not only are healers respected, but Mishakal is also the wife and advisor to Paladine. Lord of the Rose even states that the Knights of Solamnia begin worshipping her more.
- the order a knight belongs to is based on his deeds and human judgement (his sponsor, a council etc.)
- whether a knight is able to use god-granted powers depends on the god - as well as on the knight: that is, some (or rather, most *) knights, even if they belong to the order of the Sword, don't have any clerical powers: e.g. some don't want them, some don't have the ability to "channel" divine power, some don't have/don't take the training you need for casting spells (that is, they don't learn the prayers), and some aren't granted any cause the Kiri-Jolith sees e. g. a fault in the knight ... and so on..
Only very few and very spiritual knights are granted any clerical powers in my games. There's no automatism like "you've become a Sword Knight and now you can cast spells". E. g. the knight must petition the god for it, fullfill a special quest and must also have a more "clerical" mindset than the average knight.
The High Clerist, IMO, should be a very pious knight and thus should have access to more than the "normal" powers granted to knights, that is, he should have access to spells more like a single-class cleric (of course, only during those times when the gods are around).
- the Sword - Rose transition: IMO, why should Kiri-Jolith take back what he granted before, if he views the knight as still worthy of his special favor? Thus, like in the order of the Sword, some Rose knights in my game have clerical powers.
I'm using the AD&D rules, and I prefer the way they limit "spell-casting" knights in comparision to clerics ... Of course, a god can anytime say "well, I should grant this knight somewhat more 'spell-power'" ...
Also, which god grants the spells is somewhat irrelevant, IMO. The knights honor a triumvirate: maybe all three grant the spells? Or one knight is favoured by Habakuk, the other by Kiri, and another one finds the favor of Paladine?
Since IMO it's in the gods' judgement who gets powers, it's also possible that a very pious Crown knight might be able to cast spells.
But generally, IMO and in my game, the "spell-casting" knight is very, very, rare.
* I tend to view the knights more as they've been established in the novels which means, they're not known as "spell-casting knights/clerics".
The occasional knight might have the ability, but those knights are very, very rare in my games.
The High Clerist, IMO, should be a very pious knight and thus should have access to more than the "normal" powers granted to knights, that is, he should have access to spells more like a single-class cleric (of course, only during those times when the gods are around).
Personally, I just prefer him to be more powerful by being higher level than the rest of the Sword Knights
- the Sword - Rose transition: IMO, why should Kiri-Jolith take back what he granted before, if he views the knight as still worthy of his special favor? Thus, like in the order of the Sword, some Rose knights in my game have clerical powers.
I dislike spell casting Knights of the Rose myself. I have the conception of the Knights of the Sword being fairly monastic, and once you make your vows to a particular order, you keep them. So you can train in war under the knights of the Crown, and you can train in spiritual discipline under the knights of the Sword... but you don't become a member of those Orders before you become a Knight of the Rose.
* I tend to view the knights more as they've been established in the novels which means, they're not known as "spell-casting knights/clerics".
The occasional knight might have the ability, but those knights are very, very rare in my games.
Well, if the Knights of the Sword are not presented as clerical/paladin spellcasters in the novels (except for one breif scene in DoSF), are we going to chuck this concept of spellcasting knights?