No wonder it was such an earth shattering plot twist to have Kitiara as a Highlord;
Tanis: "But you can't be evil...you're so hot!"
Kitiara: "Search your feelings, you know it to be true, now come with me, it is the only way..."
Tanis: "NOOOOoooooo!"
That's one thing that I really liked about the War of Souls. Gerard was ugly, Odilla didn't cause men to throw food in their faces and fall out of their chairs in order to impress her, Mina was attractive (even with the shaved head), I never really got the impression that the heroes should be wearing one piece red bathing suits and chasing marauding draconians in slow motion. It was almost comical how every woman the Companions came across who had any significance was somehow more beautiful than the last (and the last was usually the most beautiful woman they had *ever* seen).
Dragonlance is awesome, but don't you think we need a Krynnish version of what the Drow used to be in 1st Edition AD&D? Something beautiful, but deadly, a "BBD" if you will. Not spider worshipping Irda, but I'd like to see a similar play on the established evil races. Takhisis was beautiful, wouldn't it have made more sense for her to curse the ogres that turned away from her with ugliness? What if the Irda were evil, and the notion that their pretty blue skinned forms are their natural bodies is a lie?
But that doesn't help Sovereign Press much since I don't see them retconning two major races. Any ideas for a good Krynn-specific attractive evil race that could be added? An evil elven empire that wasn't drow-like? Evil Irda? Something else?
What do you think physical beauty represents in Dragonlance? Do you think its given too much importance?
Cheers,
Cam
Heroes are always better than everyone else. Also people are routinely likely to want ugly people because they have some issue with fantasy filled with characters like such that they'll search all over for them. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Nevertheless, its an ancient fantasy truth that your soul reflects your outer appearence and beauty can be misleading. True Beauty is also deeper than the outer side.
The Ogres and Orcs are ugly because their culture and ways destroy their good looks.
Same in Tolkien, same in Dragonlance.
But as a refutation, certainly Gully Dwarves aren't evil but are ugly. The Queen of Darkness was always beautiful. It's largely your imagination.
You want beautiful evil? How about Ogre Titans? How about the Tarmak
Ever notice how so many of the elements in Dragonlance can be judged by how attractive it is to mortal eyes?
You mean human eyes right? A goblin might see humans as ugly.
All the pretty races are good, all the ugly ones are bad.
Gully dwarves aren't bad, evil elves are still elves (Dalamar isn't ugly), Ogre Titans aren't good, Draconians aren't ugly, dragons (whether good or evil) aren't ugly, High Ogres weren't ugly, evil dwarves look much the same as good ones, Tarmak aren't ugly, evil humans aren't all portrayed as ugly (Verminaard, Kitiara, Mina, Steel),...
If a pretty person turns bad he gets ugly (Raistlin)...
All he had were hourglass eyes and golden skin. Not ugly, just unusual.
...or if a pretty race goes bad it does the same (Irda -> Ogres).
The Irda went good. Not the other way around. And their looks didn't change much in either...umm...direction because of it. The High Ogres were bad already, so the ogres didn't go bad either.
What do you think physical beauty represents in Dragonlance? Do you think its given too much importance?
I think you're looking at this much too hard. Beauty is still relative.
The Chronicles *did* make a point to convey how beautiful almost all the good guys (particularly the girls) were and how unpleasant to look at the villains were. A number of the recent novels have moved away from that (quite dramatically in War of Souls and now it sounds even moreso in The Dark Disciple trilogy.) And yes, I am of course referring to beauty through the eyes of a human. Last I checked, goblins and minotaurs don't actually read these books. ;)
The Lord of the Rings featured some attractive characters, but it wasn't given near the attention as DL, and the primary evil was still something that *looked* like a pretty gold ring.
Evil being attractive and seductive is a staple of almost all fantasy and even most religions. You don't really see that in the Chronicles. Kitiara was seduced by power but she was content with the prospect of ruling over a world of goblins, draconians, and bloodthirsty humans. Not really a relatable temptation; unlike the lure of the evil in the One Ring, where good characters were tempted to use the ring to protect things that *were* worth fighting for and preserving.
I think its just a by-product of the "Days of Our Lives" approach to the LOTR story taken by Weis and Hickman. Don't get me wrong, I loved what they did with it, but I think I like even more the fact that the setting is "growing up" a bit with elements such as the Knights of Takhisis and heroes that don't always end up the prom queen of the Degrassi Elven High.
Name one attractive character in the Lord of the Rings who was evil.
Also, I've never seen Kitiara as overwhelmingly beautiful. She was sexy but many women have that quality.
Alhanna and Laurana were the ones with the unearthly beauty but that's because they were princesses. Tika was just Buxom. Goldmoon admittedly....was.
This really isn't that huge of a difference in fantasy than with others.
Name one attractive character in the Lord of the Rings who was evil.
I'd say Sauron the Fair, but Tolkien made a point that that wasn't his true form.
I'd say Sauron the Fair, but Tolkien made a point that that wasn't his true form.
Sauron also had lost his ability to take a pleasing shape for many years before he became the villain of the Trilogy.
And I will confess, Aragorn is described as quite Ugly.
Right now I'm leaning toward ripping off the Umbragen drow from Eberron.
I'd still like to see a slick, attractive, evil race or sub-race on Krynn. An evil sub-race or Irda, elves (not dark elves such as Dalamar but an actual sub-race), or something new.
Why not use the Nzunta then?
Why not use the Nzunta then?
Hmm, that doesn't immediately ring a bell. Is that a race of evil sea elves? Or at least ill tempered? Do they have laser beams? Throw me a frickin' bone here... ;)
Hmm, that doesn't immediately ring a bell. Is that a race of evil sea elves? Or at least ill tempered? Do they have laser beams? Throw me a frickin' bone here... ;)
Nzunta are evil-Irda that are not ugly like ogres. They live on Taladas.
Hmm, that doesn't immediately ring a bell. Is that a race of evil sea elves? Or at least ill tempered? Do they have laser beams? Throw me a frickin' bone here... ;)
Nzunta are a sect of the High Ogre who managed to avoid the the uglification and debrainment the ogres experienced. So basically, evil Irda.
Uglification and debrainment. There really should be words like that. :D
Okay, that sounds like what I'm looking for (though I'll still probably use the Umbragen from the new Dragon). How are their abilities different from good Irda? Or are they the same except for alignment?
Go here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads and get Otherlands.
Will someone explain how Ogre Magi fit into the Ogre mythology. They're intelligent, magical, and blue and no one has tried tying them to the Irda in canon?
They're hardly even mentioned.
I've got to ask personally.
Will someone explain how Ogre Magi fit into the Ogre mythology. They're intelligent, magical, and blue and no one has tried tying them to the Irda in canon?
They're hardly even mentioned.
Ogre Magi, as well as hags and the occasional mutant hill giant (frost giants, fire giants, stone giants, etc.) are "throwbacks" to the old High Ogre race. They have magic abilities just like the High Ogres did, but not quite like the ones of the Irda. It seems as though the curse put on them wasn't quite complete, since you get some blue ogres with magic powers every now and then.
Well, I can accept the ogre magi (as long as he not presented in an asian style) and maybe also the hill-giant.
But the other giants and hags are too different IMO from ogres - or irda.
Leave them away.
Where is this "mutant"-thing from? DLCS?
Strange. Mutant ogres?
Well, I can accept the ogre magi (as long as he not presented in an asian style) and maybe also the hill-giant.
But the other giants and hags are too different IMO from ogres - or irda.
Leave them away.
Where is this "mutant"-thing from? DLCS?
All of the origins of the ogre races such as hags and giants are given in the Dragonlance DM Screen companion booklet.
I'm not sure if I would use the other types of Giant myself.
Like others, I believe much of this was the original Dragonlance team following Tolkien's model to a degree--but there were exceptions in the beginning and the new storylines throw this line of thinking right out the window. (The Beloved of Chemosh are very attractive and reeeeeeeally scary.)
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Emporer Arikas wasn't described as ugly.
Many other evil characters are not ugly although I can see your reasoning in thinking that evil is ugly and good is not.
If you think Raistlin was meant to be considered "ugly," then you should re-read Dragonlance Legends.
Probably, but I think if you took Brad Pitt and gave him gold skin, white hair, and hourglass pupils, girls wouldn't exactly swoon. He might get away with the skin and hair, but those eyes would be *freaky*. I had a friend girls generally considered to be attractive who would sport contact lenses that looked like cat's eyes on occassion. *Very* unsettling to look at. I wouldn't consider a visage that makes one uncomfortable or wanting to look away "handsome," but as you say perhaps Legends paints a different picture.
My tongue in cheek first post was mostly to poke fun at the Chronicles however, and was a direct result of reading about Eberron's Umbragen drow elves and thinking "cool, what bad guys on Krynn could fill that role?" and then realizing, "Crap, all the evil races in Dragonlance are scary and ugly looking."
He's certainly not seen that way in the eyes of most female readers--or even Margaret herself, for that matter. An important part of Tasslehoff's journey in Legends was to discover that evil isn't "cool" or interesting, but dark and hurtful.
Or that even though some evil *is* pretty "cool", underneath the cool is the darkness and danger.
My tongue in cheek first post was mostly to poke fun at the Chronicles however, and was a direct result of reading about Eberron's Umbragen drow elves and thinking "cool, what bad guys on Krynn could fill that role?" and then realizing, "Crap, all the evil races in Dragonlance are scary and ugly looking."
Why do you need all the different D&D Worlds to be the same?
Dragonlance is Dragonlance let it be Dragonlance don't try to make it simular to Eberron, or Forgotten Realms, or a Greyhawk. All those worlds are different for a reason. Besides I like Draconians, Minotaurs, Ogres, Kobolds, and Goblinoids to be ugly. Who need pretty pantzy dark elves running around weilding dual simitars?
Dragonlance is Dragonlance let it be Dragonlance don't try to make it simular to Eberron, or Forgotten Realms, or a Greyhawk.
My group throws all kinds of cool things from other mediums and settings into Dragonlance (we just got off a big Inuyasha kick most recently, and had all kinds of fun incorporating some nasties from that show into the Silvanesti Nightmare). And we will continue to do so thankyouverymuch.
In Tolkien's works, the elves are beautiful, the orcs and trolls are ugly. Steadfast characters are plain (hobbits and dwarves), dark-skinned men of the South are evil (Haradrim), etc.
Tolkien made the dark skinned races evil because he was a bit of a racist...
-Angus
Tolkien made the dark skinned races evil because he was a bit of a racist...
Patently untrue.
However in the 1930s, he did receive a letter from Nazis congratulating him on having written a work containing "****" heroes.
He wrote back (in typical academic style) bluntly saying, "There is no Indo-**** characters in my work? What are you talking about?"