I looked on the Vaults for some info, but it actually raised more questions. One of them regards this statement,
Rathanos (Corona is in fact granting spells to these deranged Magians)
So, it appears Rathanos is not granting the spells, but rather it is Corona. WHO IS CORONA?
Bear in mind that is just one interpretation of things (about Rathanos not granting them their spells). It is not anything that comes directly from canon sources, so it could very well be Rathanos granting them their spells.
Aside from Gaz2, which is admittedly rather vague on the topic, the only other product that I know of that mentions the Magians is module M5: Talons of Night. That module introduces us to an NPC named Ejiptus Kenaton Ka, who is a Chaotic 20th level "cleric of Rathanos, a lesser immortal of the Magian Fireworshipper pantheon." That's how he is described, and it also mentions that his chaotic alignment is not due to evil, but rather his opposition to the lawful mysticism of Thothia.
Thus, contrary to the "evil" seeming approach of Gaz2, this particular Magian is not evil by design/faith.
Anyway, to bring things together, my interpretation of the Magians is thus:
1) They are a pantheon of fire-oriented immortals- probably primarily Ixion and Rathanos. They became (at some point) the official "state" religion of Nithia (according to Gaz2), likely supplanting the other Nithian immortals (like all those non-fire guys from the Hollow World supplement). Their ascendancy may or may not have been connected to the rise of Entropic worship among the Nithians as well- and thus may have some sinister connections.
2) They seem to be a mixture of clerics and necromancers- I'd suggest some of the higher order Magians may even have some kind of prestige class combining the two abilities.
3) They appear to be evil in the Emirates, but (as noted) at least one in Thothia is not evil. They were outlawed by the edicts of the Eternal Truth in Ylaruam- which may be the reason they are viewed as evil there (an outlook that is probably not helped by the fact that there are some who are evil). Their usage of necromantic magics is probably key to this view as well.
As an aside, I think it would be pretty cool to see some kind of fire-templated zombie creature that these Magians created through their magics.
Unfortunately the Ylary and Nithian Pantheon you were looking at is not updated Hugin, since I have changed MANY things after I've done other researches on the topic.
Anyway, let's just say that my idea is that at the time of the Nithian Empire, the Magians were devout followers of Rathanos, Ixion and Corona (in this order). With time, the increasing influence of Corona over them turned them evil and this also contributed to cause the collapse of the Nithian Empire.
Corona is the Nithian identity of Zugzul from Blackmoorian times, god of fire, war and death.
Indeed, this seems very much the case if you look at how the Magians are portrayed in GAZ2: they're evil fire elementalists AND necromancers! Rathanos has no interest in necromancy, and the only deity that fits this role is really Zugzul, so that's him.
Corona is Thanatos's secret ally according to GAZ2 because nobody among the immortals knew the great influence that Thanatos has always had on Zugzul (who's an immortal of Energy). That's about it. [I suspect I will have to upload Zugzul's bio shortly thereafter... :p]
One final mention on Egyptus Kenaton Ka from M5. He's one of the last surviving Magian Fire Worshippers who are still devout to Rathanos, but that is hardly difficult to explain. He's been raised in Thothia, and we all know that Thothia was spared from Nithia's destruction only because it was still faithful to Rathanos and the old ways. That's why the Thothian Magians worship Rathanos
---------------- Possible campaign spoiler ------------------------
Hmm... interesting thread. It made me ponder a few things that I never really thought about before.
Somehow I always imagined the Fire Magians in Ylaruam to be related to the Cypri (the original Alphatian fire worshippers who, AFAIK later became the Flaems).
I can't precisely say why, but I had the impression that the Honor Island Fire Wizards were decendants of Nithian colonists but also somehow related to the Flaems.
This text:
http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/html/glanrclt.html
suggests that the Flaems follow Razud, not Rathanos. I haven't read anywhere who the Honor Island Fire Wizards follow (if any).
I haven't had a chance to re-read Gaz 2 recently, so I don't know much about how long Fire Magians have been around. But since Ylaruam was once a colony of the Alphatian Empire it could make sense perhaps, that this was one of the places where outlawed Alphatian followers of fire took to hiding out and causing trouble. (but that doesn't fit with Honor Island wizards being of Nithian descent, I know
)To answer you original question, Hugin, about whether the Fire Magians are wizards or clerics: I suppose they are both, much as Flaems are sorcerers with a few priests of Razud and Alphatians are primarily sorcerers but also follow Palartakan and Alphatia (the female patron immortal) and has many clerics among them.
:-) Jesper
Somehow I always imagined the Fire Magians in Ylaruam to be related to the Cypri (the original Alphatian fire worshippers who, AFAIK later became the Flaems).
BEEEP!! Wrong, try again! :D
The Cypri were simply a very widespread race that got conquered by the Alphatians. They were not "fire-worshippers" of any kind! From what we know, they only had coppery skin tone, but this doesn't necessarily mean they are fire worshippers, don't you think? ;)
And besides, the Cypri weren't exactly famous for their "talent" in the magic arts...
I can't precisely say why, but I had the impression that the Honor Island Fire Wizards were decendants of Nithian colonists but also somehow related to the Flaems.
Whoa, so many things in one place!
A bit of order: the NITHIAN descendants are the druids of White Isle.
The mages of Fire Island are a mix of Glantrian Flaems, Alphatian expatriates and wizards from other nations. the Flaems WERE followers of Razud (who is in NO WAY associated to fire) but later dropped their faith when Glantri passed the Light of Rad. It is likely the Flaems living in Ierendi were not so closed on religion and may in fact worship some deity related to fire.
The Alphatian fire mages (supposedly related to Flaems) likewise should follow or pay homage (if not worship) a deity associated with Fire.
My take on the faith of these fire-worshippers living in Fire Island is that they revere either Rathanos or Zugzul or (more likely) the Fire Elemaster. Why I am in favour of the Elemaster?
1. the plenipotentiary of Fire Island is Gherynid, a FEMALE wizard. If Rathanos was worshipped by these mages, they could have never allowed a female to come into a position of such power. So Rathanos is out.
2. Zugzul is a way bit too evil to be associated with these wizards, who are more likely scholars than conquerors (Zugzul is also associated with war and death in every culture he appears).
3. It is likely that in Old Alphatia the Alphatians following the Elemental Philosophy didn't worship immortals, but pay homage and respected the embodiment of the different elements, that is to say the Elemasters. This philosophy may have turned into a real faith in Mystara.
That's it for me
When I read the section in Gaz2 about the Magians, I get a whole different impression. Let me quote it
"Third, the official religeon of the Empire, the Magian Fire Worshippers, revered powerful beings from the Elemental Plane of Fire. Conflicts between these fire beings and beings from the Elemental Plane of Water resulted in an imbalance in the availability of these elements in this region, intensifying the effects of the increasingly arid climate. Further, these beings, treacherous and unfaithful to their followers, ultimately abandoned them when the empire had begun to fall."
Clearly these are not immortals but powerful elementals (thats not to say one of them didn't become an immortal later). The only mention of an actual Immortal patron is Thanatos.
How this "religion" survived immortal intervention is beyond me. The base for any Magians would have to be in Nithia. Getting within 24 miles of Surra-Man-Raa will forget any and all information regarding Ancient Nithia. Not to mention they were "abandoned" by these elementals. It was this very state religion that caused them to be wiped out in the first place. All of a sudden the immortals turn a blind eye to it?
Let's make an assumption that it did survive, that immortals don't care about it and that the followers have forgiven the abandonment. Having clerics among them would seem at first to be a good idea. Then we are confused as to who grants them spells. If we go with the original form of this practice there is only one immortal available to grant spells to clerics, Thanatos. The wizard followers would almost certainly be fire elementalists or necromancers and the clerics would probably follow this line. You could bring these two groups together, though, and allow wizards to take cleric spells in lieu of mage spells. Its been done before and this is how Rad's followers function.
We can go back and place immortals in place of the powerful elementals but why would any non-entropic immortal want to be connected to a religion the immortals wiped out centuries ago. And for that matter why would anyone?
When I read more on this I find myself gravitating not to a religion. I see high level mages making pacts with powerful elemental lords. This would go largely more unnoticed than resurrecting a forbidden religion that was wiped out. If there is need for clerics among them I would go back to Thanatos. No where does it state there was a "pantheon" for this religion and this was not the traditional faith of the previous rulers. This was a seperate entity, a cult if you will that rose to power.
I dragged out the Hollow World Nithia book and there is less information there. They do add Ranivorus to the list as another instigator of the downfall (this is also supported in WotI but in that product he is claimed to be the "cheif agent responsible for corrupting the Nithians"), but again Thanatos and Ranivorus are the only 2. The followers are known as "magians" after all and to me that denotes mages. I am all for giving them access to some cleric spells (mostly anything to do with necromancy, fire, and summoning) and these are most certainly granted by Thanatos (if you need a divine power instead of magical versions of clerical spells).
Unfortunately, PC4 is the only product I didn't get a hardcopy of so I have little knowledge of what's in there. I don't put alot of stock in the PC series anyways. This is largely due to the blandness of the product. The world is filled with nations who are based off of RW cultures and this has always been the great "flavour" of Mystara. The PC series are mainly bereft of any flavour. I realize that the subjects themselves and the wide sweep of the product lends to this. Thats why for a fairy campaign I added alot of Irish history and legends to "spice" it up with flavour. They had to cram alot of info in those books and probably got very little chance to cross reference them. Wasn't the first time or the last that discrepencies got through.
I'm now thinking of this more as a philosophy that is based on a long-lost religion/philosophy. However, some Immortals may be manipulating this cult for their own purposes, which may not be any at the moment but they still have the followers set-up once they are needed.
They seem to be a mixture of clerics and necromancers- I'd suggest some of the higher order Magians may even have some kind of prestige class combining the two abilities.
Wouldn't that be interesting...
They appear to be evil in the Emirates...
Could this not be a situation similar to the way the Shadow Elves were described in the Alfheim gaz? The magians may be just diametrically opposed in ideology to the Ylari. Not necessarily evil, but not good either, depending on how naive the individual is.
As an aside, I think it would be pretty cool to see some kind of fire-templated zombie creature that these Magians created through their magics.
Oh, now you're just sweet-talking me!
:evillaugh (If I come up with anything, I'll post it)[I suspect I will have to upload Zugzul's bio shortly thereafter... :p]
Elementary, dear Watson!
My take on the faith of these fire-worshippers living in Fire Island is that they revere either Rathanos or Zugzul or (more likely) the Fire Elemaster.
I wonder if the original incarnation of the fire-worshipping philosophy wasn't the basis on which the Fire Island mages formed their philosophy. I find it hard to believe that they are not somehow connected, even if only remotely. It may be that both the Flaems and the Nithian fire-worshippers both revered the same beings, although in a slightly different manner.
Not all worshipers of an immortal has to be a cleric. In fact, they dont even have to have a character class. The majority of followers in any religion is the peasants and the serfs. Anyone who learns and believes in the teachings of that immortal is a follower. A strong warrior can be the follower of an immortal patron of wizards if he honestly believes in the doctrine of that immortal.
Very true, but I was concentrating on the leaders and "spititual guides" ;) .
The impression you stated is what I have in mind too, as an origin to the religion. They were followers of powerful beings from the Elemental Plane of Fire, but certain Immortals begin to influence and "grab a piece of the pie" which resulted in the elementals abandoning these people (hence the "treacherous and unfaithful to their followers" blurb).
How this "religion" survived immortal intervention is beyond me
I think it survived, as a philosophy, in it's original pre-corruption (and sans Immortal) state. Any Immortal-touched aspect of the religion was wiped-out.
So I think I'll have a mainly wizard-type heirarchy, with perhaps some clerics of an Immortal with a love of fire and necromancy working very subtlely and carefully within the cult. This Immortal may be Corona/Zugzul, but if it is, he'd best be VERY careful lest he attract the attention of Immortals who remember the Nithian catastraphy.
I wish I had more time to develop this material more!
How this "religion" survived immortal intervention is beyond me. The base for any Magians would have to be in Nithia.
I just had a thought about this - What if devout, high-level followers often made pilgrimages to the Elemental Plane of Fire? Both them and their knowledge would have remained intact while the Immortals on the Prime Plane were having their way with the Nithian civilization.
And for what it's worth, there are clerics in Fire Island, so it's not just a "philosophy", as much as it wasn't just a philosophy in Nithia. It WAS a philosophy in Old Alphatia, and it is certainly more likely that they struck pacts with the Elemasters (seen as powerful beings and not considered deities) more often than the Nithians did.
BEEEP!! Wrong, try again! :D
I need to do some serious re-reading of the gaz series :whatsthis
The Cypri were simply a very widespread race that got conquered by the Alphatians. They were not "fire-worshippers" of any kind!
the Flaems WERE followers of Razud (who is in NO WAY associated to fire)
So when Kit Navarro wrote this at the Vault:
"The Immortal Razud was a Patron of the Cypri people of Old Alphatia, the ancestors of the Flaemish race, but his worship has spread throughout the other cultures of the Glantrian highlands and known in the rest of Mystara. Razud is second only to the Immortal Rad in popularity among Glantrians, and two distinct cults of Razud are in existence in Glantri.
The Cult of the Flame (sometimes called "The Cult of the Flaem") is an ancient Flaemish cult dedicated to "The Blazing One" and committed to "keeping aflame the blazing spirit of the Flaemish people." The cult has no true organisation and its objectives are often intertwined with the political agendas of the Flaemish nobles, particularly if it involves the preservation and propagation of Flaemish traditions. There are no true clerics of Razud in the cult, but occasionally, some of the cultists display mystical powers, much like the Shepherds of Rad"...
he was just plain wrong??
And besides, the Cypri weren't exactly famous for their "talent" in the magic arts...
So, are the Cypri from Old Alphatia (the original Followers of the Flame that lost the Civil War under Alphaks against the Followers of Air) ?? Or are they one of the civilizations that the Alphatians conquered when they arrived on Mystara??
A bit of order: the NITHIAN descendants are the druids of White Isle.
Yes, I see that now (gaz 4, page 50-51)
The mages of Fire Island are a mix of Glantrian Flaems, Alphatian expatriates and wizards from other nations. It is likely the Flaems living in Ierendi were not so closed on religion and may in fact worship some deity related to fire.
Actually, re-reading gaz 4, it says that: "Their origins are rumoured variously as Alphatian, Glantrian and Nithian; however, no evidence or report confirms any of these theories" and later: "The Honor Island mages are refugees from an Alphatian subject nation on an island southeast of the Isle of Dawn. Many of the oldest magical reference texts found in the mages' Citadel are written in Alphatian, though the language is spoken only by a handful of high level spellcasters". (gaz 4, page 60).
So, that would mean that the Honor Islanders are origianlly from the Alatian Islands souteast of Isle of Dawn? Honor Island warfleets helped defeat the Thyatians in 644 AC, so the magehold must have been established by then. But the Alatian Islands were not transformed into amusement parks etc. until a couple of centuries back (PGtA, page 10-11). So what made the Honor Islands leave the Alatian Islands? The DM's guide to Alphatia doesn't say much about the Alatian Islands other than an attempt in 730 AC to turn the four islands into "beautification projects" - two of which succeeded and two which failed.
But what would cause the Honor Island mages to leave before 644 AC?
Have to ponder this some more
:-) Jesper
"The Immortal Razud was a Patron of the Cypri people of Old Alphatia, the ancestors of the Flaemish race, but his worship has spread throughout the other cultures of the Glantrian highlands and known in the rest of Mystara. Razud is second only to the Immortal Rad in popularity among Glantrians, and two distinct cults of Razud are in existence in Glantri.
It's wrong. The Cypris was conquered by the Alphatians in the world of Old Alphatia, "but eventually absorbed their culture and the race became more Cypric than Alphatian. The Alphatian who exhibit traits of the original pale skinned race are now few and far between." (Player's Guide to Alphatia). The Cypri-Alphatian are the ancestors both of the Flaemish race and of the Alphatian race. There isnt any other relation between the Cypris and the Flaems.
Razud was a Cypri Immortal, and next a patron of the Alphatians.
It was he who guided the Alphatians (Followers of Air) fleeing the destruction of their world. Maybe he helped the Followers of Fire pure of Alphaks' taint (the Flaems) too.
So, are the Cypri from Old Alphatia (the original Followers of the Flame that lost the Civil War under Alphaks against the Followers of Air) ??
Right.
In the beginning the Nithians would have worshipped their regular pantheon of gods including Rathanos. Then the Rath cult started scheming with elementals (elemasters if you want). Ranivorous and Thanatos see an opportunity and corrupt the cult into their own following. Later they corrupt and convince a pharoah to place the cult as the state religion. By this time Rathanos is ticked, the state religeon is corrupt and the empire is visciously evil. Enter immortal intervention. If you want a RW version of this look into the religeon of Aten in egyptology(or Akhenaten the pharoah)
Remember the reason Thothia survived is because they stayed true to Rathanos. Also note Rathanos is not entropic, he is from the sphere of energy. If I were going to use them IMC I would call them Magians but give Rath's cult on Thothia another name to avoid confusion. Or they could be a "inner circle" cult. A corrupt elite within the ranks of Rath's main following. But it is clear that they are not one and the same.
So when Kit Navarro wrote this at the Vault:
"The Immortal Razud was a Patron of the Cypri people of Old Alphatia, the ancestors of the Flaemish race, but his worship has spread throughout the other cultures of the Glantrian highlands and known in the rest of Mystara. Razud is second only to the Immortal Rad in popularity among Glantrians, and two distinct cults of Razud are in existence in Glantri.
Well, I'm sorry for Kit but this is just HIS OWN IDEA, and it's blatantly in contrast with the canon sources (GAZ3 and DotE).
As Verro already pointed out, the Cypri were the first interstellar civilization the Alphatians conquered and absorbed, but they later got "cypricized" because the Cypri were much more.
Razud was patron of the Cypri and later of the Alphatians, but he was NEVER and has NEVER been associated with Fire! Read his bio in WotI and you'll be convinced.
Also, according to DotE and Mark of Amber, it was RAzud who helped the Alphatians flee their dying homeworld, but he put a "curse" on the followers of the Flame (held responsible for the disaster): they would have not been able to settle down until the last of the fire-mages that had lived during the reign of Alphaks wasn't dead. that's why it took the Flaems (descendants of the Followers of the Flame) around 1300 years to come to Mystara and settle in Glantri (they came 1300 years AFTER the Followers of Air had already settled in the new Alphatian continent).
The Cult of the Flame (sometimes called "The Cult of the Flaem") is an ancient Flaemish cult dedicated to "The Blazing One" and committed to "keeping aflame the blazing spirit of the Flaemish people." The cult has no true organisation and its objectives are often intertwined with the political agendas of the Flaemish nobles, particularly if it involves the preservation and propagation of Flaemish traditions. There are no true clerics of Razud in the cult, but occasionally, some of the cultists display mystical powers, much like the Shepherds of Rad"...
And again, this is plainly wrong, or at least not in line with what we know of the Flaems, their history, Razud and the Glantrian situation.
Actually, re-reading gaz 4, it says that: "Their origins are rumoured variously as Alphatian, Glantrian and Nithian; however, no evidence or report confirms any of these theories" and later: "The Honor Island mages are refugees from an Alphatian subject nation on an island southeast of the Isle of Dawn. Many of the oldest magical reference texts found in the mages' Citadel are written in Alphatian, though the language is spoken only by a handful of high level spellcasters". (gaz 4, page 60).
So, that would mean that the Honor Islanders are origianlly from the Alatian Islands souteast of Isle of Dawn?
Yes they were,apparently. The explanation is easy: the Alatians were under Thothia after the destruction of Nithia (there is a theory among us Italian fans which holds the Alatian isles as the homeland of the Alasyian tribes.. never noticed the similarity between the two names? AlaSyian and AlaTian? :D), and prolly many Thothians or Alatians were followers of Rathanos or fire elementalists in general. They may have discovered Fire Island after talking to creatures on the Plane of FIre or after omens sent by Rathanos himself and left secretly to move there (not many mind you, but some did).
Hope that clears out something, Jesper. ;)
I understand what you all are saying about Rathanos and such, but i dont have m5. Besides I put as much stock in the info in the modules as i do for the PC series. The modules were even worse for confusion because alot of them were actually wrote before the gazetteers.
M5 made perfect sense, so I'm using it as base of assumptions. It has TONS of great info on Thothia and on history of Alphatia and Thyatis and the IoD in general.
Also, what are the modules which are difficult to place inside Mystaran timeline? can you name some, because I don't recall any? I try to use all existing material to develop Mystara, so there's no point in dismissing the adventures "in full" because of a general preconception.
In the beginning the Nithians would have worshipped their regular pantheon of gods including Rathanos. Then the Rath cult started scheming with elementals (elemasters if you want). Ranivorous and Thanatos see an opportunity and corrupt the cult into their own following. Later they corrupt and convince a pharoah to place the cult as the state religion.
Sorry, I don't get it. The Magian Fire Worshippers were already the state religion... and also, the cultists may scheme with elementals as much as they want, but this doesn't mean the elementals get their worship (or ask for it..) It's a deity's intervention that we are talking about, the elementals are out of the game. And the covert intervention was on the part of "Thanatos & his secret ally Corona" (Zugzul) to quote GAZ2, and on the more open part Ranivorus used his gnolls to cause even more mischief.
The mere fact that the Nithians turned to worship Thanatos wouldn't have justified the annihilation of a whole culture. Something else was implied... and it was not something associated with fire ;)
By this time Rathanos is ticked, the state religeon is corrupt and the empire is visciously evil. Enter immortal intervention. If you want a RW version of this look into the religeon of Aten in egyptology(or Akhenaten the pharoah)
I will repeat myself: if some immortal ticks you off and steals your followers, you are not excused to go down on Mystara and burn everything down. The immortals judged that the Nithians had become too dangerous for Mystara as a whole, so they erased their civilization. There's more behind it than a screwed Rathanos, don't you think? Or else, why haven't Ixion and Ka done the same with Azcans? Why are the Huleans allowed to live? etc etc..
Indeed, the current perverted Magians are both fire elementalists and necromancers (both wizards and clerics exist according to GAZ2)...
If I were going to use them IMC I would call them Magians but give Rath's cult on Thothia another name to avoid confusion. Or they could be a "inner circle" cult. A corrupt elite within the ranks of Rath's main following. But it is clear that they are not one and the same.
That's a possible choice, but it's merely a question of terms used. They're still Magians for both of the parties involved.
If all the books and all the modules were made by the same 3 people after the Gazetteers I would feel alot differently about this. But with so many authors in it it is easy to miss an important cross reference and write something in that doesn't fit with the "core" books. Sometimes those books even contradict themselves.
I won't argue there was alot more to the destruction. The conflict between the fire and water elements is one. They were destroying the environment. Those elements in the region became rarer and the climate became more arid. Although, I still wouldn't argue there may be more to it.
I quote from HW DM's Sourcebook:
"BC 700: Thanatos, Immortal of the Sphere of Entropy, helped by the Immortal Ranivorus, corrupts the pharoah of the Nithians. The pharoah turns the Nithian empire towards worship of Entropy."
"The Nithian colonists in Thothia turn away from the Entropic faith of their homeland and increasingly turn to a new form of mysticism"
"BC 500:...The Nithian Empire, having incurred Immortal dislike, abruptly ends.......The colonies are systematically destroyed-except for Thothia, which had already turned away from the Entropic faith which led to the destruction..."
So I might concede that the fire worshippers had little to do with it. It is very clear the destruction WAS because of an empire that follows Thanatos. Make no mistake, While immortals, the Entropes are evil and are an enemy to the other four spheres. That war is as old as the immortals themselves (see PC1).
I might argue , though, that given the way Entropes work I highly doubt they would just convert a whole population over to an open evil faith. More likely, they perverted whatever state religeon was already present (ie. Magians) and it took the immortals some time to figure out what happened. and by then the damage was done.
As for elementals getting worship I do not agree. There are alot of other immortals that aren't human (or humanoid). Maybe Thanatos granted the clerics the spells anyways to make them think the elementals were immortals and corrupt the whole thing. This is very much inline with other Entropic plots.
I must be honest here until the other day I hadn't given Magians more than a few seconds thought as a dead religeon of a long obliterated empire. I am researching as I go. I would like to ask though where did this whole Magian thing become a modern development (maybe what product?)
"The elemasters achieved Immortality long ago, and now protect their exalted positions by preventing any other true Elementals from reaching Immortal status. They are vain and selfcentered, but extremely powerful and superb at their tasks."
They are Immortal sponsor and protector of the elemental and elemental-kin races.
"He [Thanatos] attempted to personally intervene in the events which were eroding the power of the Nithian Empire-to encourage the Pharoahs...to establish an Empire of Undeath...As a result, other immortals banded together to destroy this errant Immortal, and set about expunging the Nithian culture from memory...."
The second he attempted a "personal" intervention gave the other immortals every right to come down and do exactly what they did.
Now, we know that Magians were the state religeon (whatever its original concept). We know that they were fire mages and necromancers. We know they consorted with elemental beings from elsewhere. We know that treacherous elementals were partly responsible for the downfall. And we know that Thanatos tried to convince the Pharoahs into making an undead empire. AFAIK 1+1=2. They may not come out and say it but it's there nonetheless.
I still am leaning towards the idea of two factions in the Magians. The original faith vs. the corrupted faith. Or just as likely The fire mages vs the necromancers.
Also, what are the modules which are difficult to place inside Mystaran timeline? can you name some, because I don't recall any?
X2, X4, X5, X6, X9 and X10, for starters.
I will repeat myself: if some immortal ticks you off and steals your followers, you are not excused to go down on Mystara and burn everything down. The immortals judged that the Nithians had become too dangerous for Mystara as a whole, so they erased their civilization. There's more behind it than a screwed Rathanos, don't you think? Or else, why haven't Ixion and Ka done the same with Azcans? Why are the Huleans allowed to live? etc etc..
Cause they're in the Hollow World and the Immortals decided they'd been too harsh on the Nithians, respectively.
Check out Nithia gazetteer and M5
I don't have M5, but I did just read the history in The Kingdom of Nithia! THAT clears up things alot!
I don't think the religion/philosophy of the Magians was in and of itself evil; I do think the power these followers gained brought any evil in them out (the old "power corrupts..." line). As it says, "The use of unearthly powers created a class seperate from the ranks of lesser Nithians. In time, these powerful mages declared themselves as feudal lords... from benign dictatorships to the desoptic Southern duchies."
Faced with lossing the Empire piece by piece to these Magian fire-worshippers, the Pharaoh turned to the power offered by Entropy. Thanatos and Ranivorus guilded him into secrets of Nithian and Alphatian magics. He used the most "powerful and destructive" magics to create a spell "so devastating" that the war between his followers and the followers of fire destroyed most of the Empire.
It was because of the threat that the Pharaoh's magical knowledge and his insane devotion to Entropy presented to the world, and Thanatos' attempted personal intervention to help his greatest work to-date, that caused the other Immortals to act and use the Spell of Oblivion. If this was not done, the pharaoh and his Empire of Undead would spread across the face of Mystara.
The Immortals went throught great effort to wipe the arcane knowledge that the Pharaoh gained.
Back to the Magian Fire-Worshippers, I'm going with the notion that the original philosophy itself was not evil, but as one can become very powerful through devoted practice, it has the capability to produce powerful and evil people. Furthermore, its present form has combined it with lesser forms of the necromancy the Nithians learned long ago, increasing its tendencies toward evil. It is a corrupted religion easily manipulated by an Immortal of Entropy.
I have one problem, however. The Nithian gaz claims that ancient Nithian scrolls suggest the Alphatians were invited to Mystara by Magians. This was likely in a time when the Magian religion was benign (I am loath to say "good") and was not corrupted. Why would the FIRE-Worshippers side with the followers of AIR AGAINST other followers of FIRE????
I think that they sided with the Followers of Fire and were likely a contributing factor in the extended debate on Alphatia. I think the Nithians told the Flaems of Mystara and invited them, but the Fleams didn't want to just give up their homeland to the Followers of Air. A civil war requires two groups passionate about what they believe and fight for.
I'd say the Followers of Air were able to learn of Mystara from the Fleams, use the portal (or whichever means you wish) to go to Mystara, and also block the Fleams from following OR misdirect them elsewhere.
Some last thoughts.
If you read the DM's timeline at the beginning of the book it lists "treacherous elemental beings" as one of the causes of the destruction.
I think that they were one of the causes of the Empire's decline, leading to destruction as an Empire, not one of the causes of the Immortals judgement. Same goes for point one, the slave revolts, and point two, the climate change (aided by the Elves creating Alfheim).
I see the elementals being called "treacherous and unfaithful" because they placed more importance on their own conflicts than on the saftey and protection of their followers; their conflicts actually did damage to the enviroment their followers had to live in.
I still am leaning towards the idea of two factions in the Magians. The original faith vs. the corrupted faith. Or just as likely The fire mages vs the necromancers.
I think this is very likely as well. At present, it is easy to say the corrupted faction won because they absorbed the fire mage aspect.
"The elemasters achieved Immortality long ago, and now protect their exalted positions by preventing any other true Elementals from reaching Immortal status. They are vain and selfcentered, but extremely powerful and superb at their tasks."
These are a good choice for who the fire-worshippers directed their reverence. Also, the "vain and selfcentered" description supports my theory on why they were considered "treacherous and unfaithful".
Each nome (district) of Egypt had its own deity and/or pantheon of deities, which often crossed with and included the deities of other nomes. Whenever various dynasties of the Egyptian lands arose to rule the Empire, their local cult befcame the "official" religion of the Empire. Thus was it also with the dynasties of the Nithians...
You can find out more on the dynasties of the Nithians as I developed them here:
http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/html/nthadyna.html
But here is a basic run-down of the dynasties and the then-official religions:
Early Kingdoms Period
First Dynasty (Nithian) 1700-1570 BC (Horon/Ixion)
Second Dynasty (Nithian) 1570-1392 BC (Ausar)
Early Imperial Period
Third Dynasty (Ustarian) 1392-1323 BC (Ra/Rathanos)
Fourth Dynasty (Munakite) 1323-1257 BC (Munes/Asterius)
Fifth Dynasty (Urtani) 1257-1146 BC (Pflarr)
Middle Imperial Period
Sixth Dynasty (Thothite) 1146-1009 BC (Thoth)
Seventh Dynasty (Amonite) 1009-895 BC (Amon/Odin) (This is the dynasty that invited in the Alphatians)
Latter Imperial Period
Eighth Dynasty (Ranite) 895-849 BC (Ra/Rathanos)
Ninth Dynasty (Nithian) 849-834 BC (none)
Tenth Dynasty (Nuari) 834-776 BC (Ausar)
Later Kingdoms Period
Eleventh Dynasty (Nithian) 776-750 BC (Horon)
Twelfth Dynasty (Nithian) 750-700 BC (Thanatos)
Thirteenth Dynasty (Thanite) 700-500 BC (Thanatos)
You will note that the Ra/Rathanos faith was the official Nithian religion at the time when the Eighth, or Ranite Dynasty was in power. Ranak, where now stands the town of Surra-Man-Raa, was the center of Ra/Rathanos worship in old Nithia, and thus was the official religion of the nome (or district, about equal to the modern Emirate of Nithia). At the end of the Empire, it was of course the strongest-held portion of the Imperial mainland that kept to Ra/Rathanos worship and denied the Thanatos-worship of the then-Imperial 13th Dynasty (it was also strong in the west, in the region of modern Makistan).
When the Immortals decided to destroy the remnants of the Nithian Empire, Rathanos was able to get a portion of the people spared from destruction (or consignment to the Hollow World) by allowing the placement of the Bead of Oblivion in his remaining city: Ranak, today Surra-Man-Ra. Thus, today a population of Nithians remain, with vague memories of greatness...
As to exactly what the Magian Fire-Worshippers are, well...
1) The Magian Fire Worshippers worship Rathanos, known to them as Ra. He is the Lord of Flames, the Cleansing Fire, the Purifying Light. Through his fire and flames are the souls of the Chosen purified, to accept his truth and blessings. He has also, to the Magians, absorbed the elements of sun-worship formerly accorded to Horon, along with the symbol of the hawk, plus the arcane magical prowess of Pflarr (who abandoned the outer-world Nithians entirely). His worshippers are chaotic neutral in outlook, which alone would make them opposite in nature to the lawful neutral outlook supported by al Kalim. Then, too, the worship of a fire-based Immortal flies in the face of the central place of the Old Man of the Sea and the Dream of the desert Garden in the precepts of the Eternal Truth.
2) The Magian Fire Worshippers have an open and friendly relationship with the elemental beings of Fire (though they find the orderly culture of the Efreet to be stifling at best). This is opposed, again, by the Dream of the Desert Garden.
3) The Magian Fire Worshippers readily use all forms of necromantic magic, a thing that was common to most, if not all faiths of the old Nithian Empire, but became taboo to even the pre-Al Kalim Alasiyani, due to the plethora of ancient graves and Nitrhian undead which remained to haunt their land... funny that, the Immortals picked up all the living but seemed to leave a lot of the dead around, no? Maybe it was as a warning... but I digress. The Magian Fire Worshippers see no problems with maintaining the use of necromantic magic, to create undead and do nasty things to people who get in their way. After all it is simply another form of magic, which falls under their Immortal's purview, and maintains the traditions of the ancestors.
4) The Magian Fire Worshippers are an ethnocentric faith. They allow only other Nithians to join, and reveal nothing of their mysteries to others, especially the Alasiyani... whom they regard as being no better than the slaves from which they descend. So naturally, the Magians will be opposed by the Alasiyani Eternal Truth.
5) Among their own, the Magian Fire Worshippers are actually not unpleasant. Though they are fairly strict in maintaining the "old ways," in honor of their ancestors, they are actually quite liberal thinking in other ways, especially adopting magic that might seem morally reprehensible to a follower of al Kalim. Of course, one thing they hold in common with Alasiyani is the belief that women are inferior and must be "kept in their place." Their organization is on tribal lines, which makes for chaotic meetings as each tribal cleric, sorcerer, and cleric/sorcerer schemes for greater theocratic and tribal power among the faithful.
6) Worship is held in secret, away from prying eyes of followers of the Eternal Truth. This was true even before the time of al Kalim, as, again, the Magian's do not proselytize.
7) The Magian Fire Worshippers readily mix arcane and divine magic, a concept abolutely anathema to the Eternal Truth, where arcane magic is to be controlled, regulated, and used only separately from divine magic. In pre-al Kalim Ylaruam, sorcery was positively abhorred, especially as it was the work mostly of Alphatian invaders or the mysterious Magians; it was onloy the the judicious use of arcane magic by allied spellcasters and their bravery, humility, and downright usefullness against the occupiers that al Kalim got his people to not slay wizards every time they stepped into the streets... and, of course, fire magic and necromancy never were allowed in any case.
So the Magian Fire Worshippers... evil or not? No, not really. Just opposed to everything the Eternal Truth stands for, more or less. Which, of course, in the Emirates makes them evil-by-default, even if they are not truly evil...
One thing that has not been here discussed is the fact that as the Nithians follow the traditions of the RW Egyptians
The Nithians don't follow the traditions of the RW Egyptians. The Nithians are modeled on ancient Egyptians, but their traditions, as explained in the manuals, are different.
Necromancy, in and of itself is not necessarily "evil". Take a quick look at the school designations for clerical healing and ressurection. They are necromantic. Admittedly, there are more nefarious uses of the knowledge, as there are with any magic.
We also should take a close look of how necromancy got such a large following among the empire. If we assume the Magians were the state religeon for the most part (as no others were listed before or after) then we know that it is through their beliefs that necromancy is instituted. How? let me explain.
Rathanos is generally agreed upon to be the chief deity of the original faith. He spread the belief that he intends for the Nithians to be reborn at a later date into a world of pure energy as energy beings. This becomes corrupted into "being ressurected into this new world." The Nithians (through Thanatos) come up with the process of mummification to preserve their bodies for the ressurection. At first this is harmless, but after a few grave robberies, the populace (maybe just the pharoahs at first) are convinced that guardians are needed. So they kill servants to be mummified with their master and cursed so that if the crypt is disturbed they "come alive" to protect the body. At this point Rathanos probably stopped granting spells, but Thanatos is quick to fill in the gap. After a few mummies come back to life the people figured this must be proof of the "ressurection". Many people ask to be mummified and blessed (cursed) so they may serve their pharoah forever. Mummification (in the undead sense) flourishes, and the study of necromancy in its nefarious incarnation becomes wide spread. This is Thanatos' Entropic Faith. A perverted form of Rathanos' faith.
Remember this is exactly how Entropes operate. In WotI it even states that Thanatos wont do anything without his own personal brand of subtlety. I believe it would be at this point the other immortals finally take notice and begin working against Nithia indirectly. This is what causes the socio-economic breakdown of the empire. Diverting the river, slave revolts, massive geographical upheaval; these are all signs of the immortals doing what they can do to thwart Thanatos. It must have been working because it forces Thanatos' hand and he attempts a personal intervention. At which point all bets are off and the other immortals are allowed a swift retribution.
I would like to mention too that Pflarr didn't turn his back on Nithia until after the fall (probably because of Nithians making gnolls).
Seeing as how I generally subscribe to two factions in the Magians it is important to me to know where they become a modern group. I really dont see how the original faith could have survived outside HW. There is a Rathanos cult in Thothia but they turned "to a new form of mysticism." This infers that the original faith is not intact here but could call themselves Magians I suppose. Though it is hard to reconcile the continued use of necromancy.
While I don't believe necromancy to be an evil school , there are certain spells that are "evil" just by their use. This includes any spell which creates undead. I state again, Rathanos is not an entrope. He is of the sphere of energy. Undead are an anethema to the four spheres of life. Fire zombies are still zombies and therefore would not be granted by Rathanos. The spell to make them could have come from his following while they continue to find a way to transcend but would have been thrown out the minute the undead factor was known.
I still liike the Magians as chiefly wizards (with access to clerical spells or a few clerics thrown in). This would more readily explain why Rathanos' cult adhered to a doctrine of a future ressurection. If there had been alot of high-level priests among his followers the study of necromancy probably would not have gotten out of hand and there would be more concrete evidence of a ressurection. The basic idea of Rath's cult is for his followers to study magic until they find a way to transcend into beings of pure energy. This to me notes a more wizardly study of magic vs a clerical one. And if there had been alot of clerics among his following, the corruption wouldn't have gone unnoticed as long as it did. Wizards are usually godless beings and are more apt to allow a faith to be perverted. Clerics have the benefit of being in relative close contact to the immortal in question and are harder to corrupt.
Now, as for the Alphatian-Nithian connection, I must have missed that reference. No matter though this is easy to see. Magians travelling in the plane of fire meets some Flaems. They have a relatively similar base of studies but to different ends. Both being mainly a "wizardly" group shared many ideas and research. Now AFAIR Flaems have always had a bit of a superiority complex. Now they have been confirmed by an empire of fire followers (in which they also see the superiority of mages over clerics). The Flaems are invited to travel to Mystara to leave their overpopulated world. An "air-ian" (never did find a name for them) finds this out and goes public with news of a refuge from their dying world (dying from the civil war that has raged forever). The Flaems dont want them coming to Mystara and their world is destroyed in the ensuing conflict. The rest is history. I would like to note at this point Rathanos is the first immortal to side with Rad and represents Rad's highest level ally in WotI. The connection is definately there. It might also be said that since Alphaks was responsible for the destruction there may be a hint of yet another corrupted faith that leads to ultimate destruction. This could be another reason for the basis of Flaems not liking clerics. They have already witnessed two destructions at the hands of religeous zealots.
Again, I would like to ask the question "in which product do the Magians become a contemporary group?"
Gaz 2 in the Campaigning in Ylaruam section. They are given under Selecting an Ultimate Evil and Monsters, Men, and Marvelous Being. Both instances clearly show them as a present-day society.
Necromancy, in and of itself is not necessarily "evil".
No arguement from me :angelhide . It looks like most people veiw the Magians in this light. However, I do believe the higher leaders are evil because they "desire to reestablish their moribund kingdom - perfect credentials for a typical Ultimate Evil".
We also should take a close look of how necromancy got such a large following among the empire.
I like it. It's a logical evolution of beleifs.
Diverting the river, slave revolts, massive geographical upheaval; these are all signs of the immortals doing what they can do to thwart Thanatos. It must have been working because it forces Thanatos' hand and he attempts a personal intervention. At which point all bets are off and the other immortals are allowed a swift retribution.
I'm not convinced that these events were caused by the Immortals (though it is possible). I'm also inclined to say Thanatos didn't attempt his personal intervention until well into the War between the Pharaoh/leaders and the Magian lords. Of course, it's just speculation because the timelines do not give us this level of detail. I don't see the Immortals doing things to bring the Empire into decline just because of the Magian's corruption. They'd strive to restore the Empire. Not until the massive destruction and corruption of the Pharaoh and Magian War, would the other Immortals begin planning the Spell of Oblivion.
I really dont see how the original faith could have survived outside HW.
The Ylaruam gaz definately states they survived, "Magian Fire Worshippers: These descendants of the ancient Nithian elemental worshipping culture...". Several possibilities are alluded to in the gazetteers. One is that plane travelling resulted in some members of the Magians being away from Nithia. Another is that some were/are "long-lived sorcerers and liches". It is also interesting that they DO have memory of the Nithian Empire as it says they have a "desire to reestablish their moribund kingdom".
I still like the Magians as chiefly wizards (with access to clerical spells or a few clerics thrown in).
This is my veiw of the Magians as well. The more I read things though, I really think they worshipped the Elemasters and Fire Elementals in general. They had a few true clerics, but the majority were wizards.
Interesting take on the Alphatian conection as well, Malteen.
I liked your Dynasties write-up, Mystaros. All the cults co-existed but the "official" religion changed on the whim of the Pharaoh.
I'm not convinced that these events were caused by the Immortals (though it is possible).
According to the Hollow World DM's Sourcebook, page 15 shows that these actions were direct Immortal actions. They may have been signs sanctioned by the Hierarchs which were unwittengly orchistrated by Thanatos to interact, destroying the environment.
I'm also inclined to say Thanatos didn't attempt his personal intervention until well into the War between the Pharaoh/leaders and the Magian lords.
HW DM sourcebook, page 75: Thanatos started his campaign of corruption in 700 BC with the corrupting of the Pharaoh's sons (making them his clerics, and having one murder the Pharaoh so that another would become Pharaoh). The rest of the Hollow World "outer-world history" of the Nithians reads as blatant disregard for the "No direct action against mortals" rule. There are exceptions to the rule, however: the aformentioned "signs" (which aren't really actions _against_ anyone), also when an Immortal is punishing his clerics (Rathanos could have punished the Pharaoh's sons who converted to Thanatos), and finally, when a Council of Hierarchs orders an Immortal to take action. I have a distinct feeling that Thanatos was the swing vote in such a Council. He wanted the Nithian culture destroyed, and the Spell of Oblivion was better than his "idea" of an Undead Empire. Nyx is interested in Undead Armies; Thanatos in complete obliteration of all life.
Few of the self-anointed gods of that realm would be seen that grim day. For on the world far below an empire had fallen — not in the last, storied days of decadence, no, but in the fulsome might of its power, shattered by needless civil war and wrought to ruin in but a single foolish moment. Even the least human of the Immortals could not shake the inhuman terrors that ripped apart the lives of millions of mortals below, whether crushed in an earthquake, drowned in great waves, or torn asunder by maddened beasts of night and horror.
Taymor died, and the Immortals grieved.
Few were about the streets of that great city. Many sought solace with Immortal and Exalted friends, or counseled with allies, or grieved in their own ways. One, cloaked in gray and astride a horse-drawn chariot of gold, stood before a great ziggurat, built of basalt black as pitch and shod in silver filagree. With the merest thought from the gray-cloaked one, the silvered gong rang a third time.
There would be, he knew, no answer.
The Immortal whose home this was would be busy, very busy indeed, and leave not so much as a single avatar when it could be put to much better use in her lost empire far below. Immortals were not allowed to directly take action in the mortal world, but the proper nudge here, the slightest push in another direction, through dream and happenstance — such was the way of the Immortals. And even then, if an Immortal under such circumstances was to push the boundaries of the First Law, perhaps even cross them ever so slightly, who could blame her?
Ixion knew he would not. For like most Immortals in Pandius that day, he knew where to place the blame for this debacle, for the cataclysm being wrought below. Squarely in the grasping claws of Thanatos.
Thanatos. For centuries, he had watched as the Grim Reaper’s influence spread throughout the Empire below. Turning the starry endless nights of the Necromancer-Kings into the eternal bloody horrors of the Vampire-Lords. For decades he had watched the growing conflict between Night’s own nosferatu and Death’s champions, the vampires. At first, he was not displeased — for confusion among the ranks of the Lords of Entropy was always welcome, even when he might call one of them friend, or even more.
He, too, had sought an end to the much-storied Empire of Taymor. But not like this. Not in such horror, such overarching disaster. The rise and fall of empires in their rightful times — this was the proper way of things, as the star signs of the night sky pass through their houses, as planets revolve around a star, yeah, even as stars are born, grow, shine brightly, and fade — such was the way the energies of empire were to wax and in time wane.
But this horror, this instant consignment to oblivion, was unnatural. It stank of Thanatos, of Death — the entropy released in the Final Death of the Undead. Such a reaping he had gotten for his machinations. Such a reaping he had not had for a thousand years and more.
Again with but a thought, Ixion willed the horses on, toward his own glittering gold tower. In honor of his friend’s grief, he allowed them not to cast fiery streams from their hooves, nor to leave a glittering aurora from their manes. Even their silvery-gold hides were subdued, like the moon filtered behind the clouds, shadowed now and again in the streets and alleys of Pandius. The Exalted steeds strained against their reins, wishing to burst free from the constraints of the streets and fly through the air of the city, to bring joy to their mournful lord, but he held them in check, out of respect.
His own silence was not merely respectful, however. The utterly ancient Immortal had realized that he had made a mistake — a dreadful, costly mistake, as it turned out. While he had remained vigilant against the growth of the Taymoran Empire, it was ever at a distance — he had never involved himself in its inner workings, had never offered the people of Taymor a choice other than between shades of black. He had never been able to bring himself to go head to head with Night in her own lands. And now they, and she, and he, all had paid for his indecision.
Decided on his own course, his gaze lifted from the streets to the world above, framed in the swirling colors of the towers of Pandius.
His Immortal sight bore witness to countless tragedies in the southern lands, as city after city was cast down in ruin and flames, only to be inundated by the waters from the south, the hungry seas closing in like wolves on a wounded stag. There was no future there, he could see; such as survived in the ruined lands that would remain would be cast into savagery for centuries.
His eyes turned to the north and west, to the great Western Valley. There things were little better — great plantations of primitive slaves, even now rising against their weakened masters. But Ixion knew well those peoples, for they had turned from him in the past, forgotten the old ways, and even today cursed the name they had until recently known him by — Otzitiotl. No, there he would not tread again.
Then to the east his eyes passed, and there he saw promise. For in the great Eastern Valley cities stood still. Yes, the great quakes struck here too, and most lay in ruins, but in some life stirred still — true life, not un-life, and life burning strongly at that. One city most especially — Herusat, it was called. There he could see that the people had risen up against their dark masters — nosferatu and vampire alike — and sought their own freedom. But they were hard-pressed. Hope was in short supply, as were the magics needed to struggle against their mighty, if weakened dark lords.
He closed his eyes for but a moment, and brought his will to bear upon the material of the mortal world. A great hawk formed from the stuff of light itself, from the earth-born fires of the sun. In its claws it bore a sword, long and curved like the scythes wielded by the peasants far below. Wrapped about the hilt, a medallion, of gold and gems, in the form of a hawk and a sun-disk.
The giant hawk, buoyed by wind and light, dove down toward the massed peasants in the noonday sun. Many fled the strange apparition, but others remained steadfast. One stood forth, a woman of mixed heritage — he could see running in her veins the blood of Taymoran and Oltec, Azcan and Neathar, not a drop of it tainted by the darkness of Night or Death.
She stepped forward, as the great hawk landed. The hawk leaned forward toward her, and fearlessly she petted it upon its feathered brow, rubbed it upon it’s golden beak — she kissed it between the eyes, and thanked it for its gifts, and thanked whatever Immortal saw fit to aid them in their time of need.
“Horon,” he whispered in her mind. “Thou shalt know me as Horon. And if thou art victorious, and remain pure of the taint of Death and Undeath, thee and thy people shalt know further of my blessings.”
With that the hawk rose into the skies upon silent wings, and disappeared into the sun. Far below, the people shouted in joy as the woman dropped the golden chain of the medallion upon her neck, and handed the great golden blade to her brother, the greatest warrior of the rebels. At first she whispered in awe the name of the Immortal to her people, but as they took the name upon their own lips they began to cry out, louder and louder, “Horon! Horon! HORON!”
And so it begins, as but a small thing, thought the Immortal to himself, as his attention once again turned to the city around him.
But then, he ruminated as he entered the golden gates of his great tower, even the smallest light in eternal darkness brings one hope...
According to the Hollow World DM's Sourcebook, page 15 shows that these actions were direct Immortal actions. They may have been signs sanctioned by the Hierarchs which were unwittengly orchistrated by Thanatos to interact, destroying the environment.
Ah. Missed that. Immortal action it is then.
I have a distinct feeling that Thanatos was the swing vote in such a Council. He wanted the Nithian culture destroyed, and the Spell of Oblivion was better than his "idea" of an Undead Empire. Nyx is interested in Undead Armies; Thanatos in complete obliteration of all life.
The Thanatos intervention that I refering to was the "personal" one (which must have been other than one of the three exceptions you quoted), not the two hundred year corruption process. Nice insight on the Council Voting.
Mystaros, I really enjoyed your story of the introduction of "Horon". Thanks!
I found it really hard to believe Thanatos would care enough about anything to try and "save" it, but there it is in black and white.
As for the other causes of the downfall, there are many listed. Most can be attributed to immortal plots. I think people are mistaking the earlier causes as part of the intervention. This is not so. The earlier causes would simply have been immortal responses to an empire that was becoming increasingly entropic. As immortals of the 4 spheres of Life they have a need to oppose entropy. Once the corrupted pharoah took office and his disposition known, civil unrest is the first chance to dethrone him and put a more amiable pharoah on the throne. It doesn't state this anywhere that I know, but I do believe they did attempt to save it. But the corruption was too ingrained and all that was left was to expunge it from the world.Then the "signs" come, diverted river, geological upheaval, etc. And I do believe this was working too, as this is what causes Thanatos to attempt a personal intervention to save his empire.
I'd like to state here as well that there is most assuredly an extremely thin line as to what regards personal intervention. I mean after all, Rad is the head of the great school of magic and head of Parliament in Glantri. He has his hands in mortal affairs all the time and yet remains unpunished. It seems to me that an immortal is free to do whatever he wants, even in avatar form, so long as no immortal level magic is used on/in the planet. This seems to be the only real security system to the no intervention rule. Although, I'd like to know how the radiance fits into all that as well. The brotherhood seems to be a direct violation of this rule as Etienne (Rad) is the head of an order in which they use an artifact to enact immortal level magics. Some other secret crafts which lead to immortality could also be considered "immortal level", especially at the high end. You can simply say it doesnt mimic immortal level magic but then I ask is it an artifact?
Thanx for the info on the modern reference. I was pulling my hair out trying to find it. As I suspected this is not Rathanos' cult but the corrupted Thanatosian Faith. I have a bit of a problem, though, with them stating there are ruins all over for Magians to pop out of. It is stated many times that the immortals removed all traces of the Nithian culture. This would include any ruins. I also know it is stated about ruins and archeological digs too. I go with the wiped out all traces view which is why I cannot get my mind around the Magians survival.
It seems the devs never did make up their minds whether Nithia was to be used or not. I mean they go to all the trouble of coming up with a more traditional ancient empire (as opposed to Blackmoor) to attribute to the powerful relics and magic items that float around Mystara. It was beautiful in its concept. Then they decide not only to wipe it out but to obliterate all traces of it. Then how would any scholar know this is a Nithian relic if he never knew about Nithia? You can't go back and learn it through study or archeology, the ruins aren't there. And right smack in the most important town in the region there is an artifact to make you forget whatever you may have learned. How can you forget that which you don't know and can't be learned? Through other planar contacts you might find something out but this would be your only source of info with nothing to back it up or cross reference. Just how much do you trust your contact?
On the other hand, it talks alot about ruins. The fact that there IS an artifact to make you forget implies that there is something to learn; and therefore, a source to learn from. It also implies that there is knowledge to be had which the immortals do not want mortals to know. This to me is more important an aspect of this whole thing than the personal intervention of all the immortals. I think it would be safe to assume that the Pharoah (for sure), and others (more than likely the Magians), had this knowledge. It goes slightly beyond the scope of just wanting to do away with a corrupt empire and thrash an entrope for overstepping the bounds. They wanted to obliterate it not just destroy it. But things, once alive, strive to survive.
I believe the immortals would take a vested interest in any group calling themselves Magians, and anything that remotely smacked of that corrupted faith. Not that they could do anything directly but a good eye would be kept on them and followers could be set against them. Although if any hint of this forbidden knowledge shows itself I can forsee the rules of no interference heavily bent. After all, it is only a rule. Rules are meant to be broken.
It seems to me that an immortal is free to do whatever he wants, even in avatar form, so long as no immortal level magic is used on/in the planet. This seems to be the only real security system to the no intervention rule. Although, I'd like to know how the radiance fits into all that as well. The brotherhood seems to be a direct violation of this rule as Etienne (Rad) is the head of an order in which they use an artifact to enact immortal level magics. Some other secret crafts which lead to immortality could also be considered "immortal level", especially at the high end. You can simply say it doesnt mimic immortal level magic but then I ask is it an artifact?
I think artifacts are another exception to the rule - if you put your Immortal magic into a physical artifact with rules and limitations, you can let your followers use it. When they put the rules together, they probably didn't foresee people making artifacts for the specific purpose of helping people gain Immortality, so the Nucleus of the Spheres is sort of obeying the letter of the rules, but not the spirit. (According to GAZ8, the Crucibles of Blackflame have a similar purpose.)
That means that Rad's actions in Glantri are basically using two loopholes:he's taken a mortal form, so he's allowed to use the artifact, and the artifact is more powerful than it really should be, but since it's technically in the letter of the law he's getting away with it... for now.
X2, X4, X5, X6, X9 and X10, for starters.
Well, what do you find difficult ? They've already been set in the appropriate timeline by official sources!
X2 is set in X century AC (980 IIRC...)
X6 is set way back in time (don't remember the exact date, must be around V century AC)
X9 is obviously set before the arrival of the Ispans in the Savage Coast (so it's before AC900).
with X4, X5 and X10 you have two choices: either use them in the WotI campaign (1004-1009) or use them as the gaz report (AC1200).
No big deal, really..
Cause they're in the Hollow World and the Immortals decided they'd been too harsh on the Nithians, respectively.
So what if they're in the HW?? I remind you that the Azcans transplanted in the HW worshipped Otzitiotl and Kalaktatla, and yet Atzanteotl intervened way after to change this feature and cause a civil war! This could have been punished, but they didn't!
Also, the Immortals didn't think "they had been too harsh" and later brought some Nithians in the HW, as you put it. ALL The immortals agreed to wipe the Nithians OUT of Mystara's surface, except for a few communities of people deemed "pure and worthy", and these were transplanted in the HW prolly after the advice of Ixion and Ka. All the others were killed by indirect immortal intervention (if sending a plague can be considered "indirect action", among other things) and their memory erased. Even the Thothians (who were spared because they were not so "corrupted" as the rest of the Nithians) had their memory altered, as well as thousands of Manscorpions, Elves and tortles living in the Savage Coast.
That's clearly a COVER UP action brought forth not by one or two or a small group of Immortals, but by MANY POWERFUL HIERARCHS (I suspect that at that time Nyx or Hel were prolly High Hierarch of Entropy and backed the decision of the other spheres)! and they must have obviously agreed that this was the only good thing to do to prevent things to go bananas! (they haven't got 90+ points of Intelligence and Wisdom for nothing, uh? ;) )
That's the only certainty we have.
WHY were the Nithians considered so dangerous lies in the realm of speculation, so this is everyone's call. But the Magians, Thanatos, Ranivorus and Corona must have played a fairly MAJOR part in that series of events.
Too many times we try to seperate Mystara's immortals from the physical realm. This is a mistake. Thay are supposed to represent the physical manifestation of basic ideas and primordial forces. They are tied to it, they interact with it. It is through artificial (not natural) laws that they choose to be governed by. They try to set themselves apart from it. To protect the natural course of things. Yet each and every immortal wants more than all things to expand their influence in the world. Basically what this comes down to is "don't get caught". Remember they may have all this great knowledge and wisdom but each one thinks their way is the best way. Yes creating a plague is an indirect action as the direct action would be to wave your hand and engulf them all in a ball of fire or squish them beneath a titanic boot. This is a body of immortals governing themselves.
The immortals created famine in Thyatis leading up to the war. Several immortals like to run around as mortals to get things going in the direction they want. Again the only way an immortal knows if there is a violation of the law is if immortal level magics are used. Theres still alot of levels of magic use between an apprentice and a master (no matter the rules sets) which could create some very devastating plagues.
On the note of not seperating the immortals from the world it came to my attention that the whole thing could have been all about the immortals themselves and Nithia was only a part of that. After all, this is what WotI is really about; the repercussions of an immortal conflict. The followers are used in an elaborate game that only mimics what the immortals are doing. And Alphatia is "destroyed" in that conflict! Obviously Nithia played a larger role in its own era's conflict but it does show a pattern.
I thought it kinda funny too when thinking about Thanatos' involvement after the fall. Wouldn't it be ironic if he was sentenced to make (or help make) the artifact in Surra-Man-Ra, obliterating all traces of the empire he tried to save after having corrupted it in the first place so he could destroy it? Maybe this is what he wanted all along. Who really won that conflict?
Well, what do you find difficult ? They've already been set in the appropriate timeline by official sources!
X2 is set in X century AC (980 IIRC...)
X6 is set way back in time (don't remember the exact date, must be around V century AC)
X9 is obviously set before the arrival of the Ispans in the Savage Coast (so it's before AC900).
with X4, X5 and X10 you have two choices: either use them in the WotI campaign (1004-1009) or use them as the gaz report (AC1200).
No big deal, really..
This isn't about "setting them in the timeline" - now that I read the thread again, Malteen said basically, "I don't take the modules at face value for information because so many of them were written before the Gazeteers [and got contradicted]". Then you asked, "What modules are hard to place in the timeline?" I don't see the point of the question - nobody was even discussing when modules occur until you asked it.
The point is that many of the modules - those I listed, for instance - say specific things about the country's they're set in, and the Gazeteers then say something different. It's easy to resolve the discrepancy (except in the case of X10) by just setting the module at a different point in time, but that's not the point. The point is that there is a discrepancy so you can't just read the module and assume it gives you valid information about the world today - you have to read the Gazeteers and other sources to find out if the module's still considered valid or has to be adjusted.
it states in Gaz2 that Thanatos attempted a personal intervention to save his followers. While I do agree Thanatos wants nothing less than the destruction of all things he has a subtlety that he puts into every endeavor...
I found it really hard to believe Thanatos would care enough about anything to try and "save" it, but there it is in black and white.
My belief is that Thanatos needed to "personally intervene" with the signs to keep his Pharaoh from falling in line with the other Immortals. His intervention might have prompted a council of Hierarchs (only 5 Hierarchs are needed for such a council, 1 from each sphere), to which Thanatos somehow got himself assigned (no doubt through some deciet, perhaps invited by the two Immortals who were against the SoO, since Thanatos would have been the only Entropic besides Nyx who would vote to save Nithia). The vote was probably split 2-2 between:
Matter & Time (the two spheres most against change) against ;
Thought & Energy (The two proponents for change) for
The Matter and Time Hierarchs were then betrayed by Thanatos, since the SoO was probably his idea from the start. He suffered several Strokes in the Plot, but won the biggest Stroke.