Here's the quick run-down:
Athas is an enclosed environment. In other words, Athas does not connect to the standard (universal) Inner Planes; the Inner Planes of Athas are exclusive to Athas.
What happens on Athas, happen on the Inner Planes; what happens on the Inner Planes of Athas has an effect on Athas.
The Inner Planes of Athas are accessed by a few different ways, but there is no Ethereal Plane. The closest Athas has is the Gray, which doubles as kind of an Ethereal Plane/Negative Plane mix with a little bit of weirdness tossed in for good measure (it's a haven for undead spirits who have not been absorbed into the plane).
Inside of the Gray, is the Black, which is a cold, shadowy realm that's rarely described in any of the books. Exactly what a designer looks for: tubla rasa.
On Athas, with no gods, it is the elements that are top dog. Unfortunately for them, they are at war with the paraelements. The closest thing Athas has to gods is the Elemental (and Paraelemental) Lords. These are immensely powerful beings that may or may not have paraded as gods early in Athas' past.
Below is a quick description of each plane:
Air: Like the standard planes, there is no ground: just air.
Sun: (takes the place of Smoke) Sun is like Air: no ground. I'm thinking it would also have vaccuum nearer to the sun.
Fire: There is a ground, but it's mostly on fire. So not a real big change.
Magma: Lakes of molten rock in various states of cooling and burping fire.
Earth: Unlike standard Earth, this earth has a surface with a definite up and down. Get this: clouds of stone float through the air.
Silt: (takes the place of Ooze) Silt is a dangerous plane where the air chokes a person with pearly dust. The waves of fine, white dust are disturbingly similar to waves of water frozen in time.
Water: A weaker plane, the waters have receded a bit and sandy islands poke above the surface. Again, unlike the standard Inner Planes, there is a definite up and down and surface to the water. Still haven't decided if there's going to be pressure atmospheres or not. Probably not.
Rain: (takes the place of Ice) the weakest of the planes, Rain is pretty despressing. It's basically a huge swamp with swirling rainclouds blasting the ground below with lightning.
Basically just need feedback - "wouldn't it be cool if" ideas, as well as "did you think of this" feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Sun: (takes the place of Smoke) Sun is like Air: no ground. I'm thinking it would also have vaccuum nearer to the sun.
Perhaps kinda like the Quasiplane of Radiance?
Magma: Lakes of molten rock in various states of cooling and burping fire.
Here's Quasielemental Magma.
Earth: Unlike standard Earth, this earth has a surface with a definite up and down. Get this: clouds of stone float through the air.
This sounds like Ysgard, Ysgard. Is it zero-g then?
Silt: (takes the place of Ooze) Silt is a dangerous plane where the air chokes a person with pearly dust. The waves of fine, white dust are disturbingly similar to waves of water frozen in time.
Hmmm. Here's Quasielemental Ooze, but it doesn't sound much like Silt to me. Try Dust or Ash.
Rain: (takes the place of Ice) the weakest of the planes, Rain is pretty despressing. It's basically a huge swamp with swirling rainclouds blasting the ground below with lightning.
Here's Quasielemental Lightning, but for Rain, you'd probably need to ease up on the electricity and add some sort of concealment, perhaps the same amount that the Ethereal gets.
All the linked-to articles on planewalker.com were written by yours truly.
It sounds sorta like the inner planes of Athas are sorta "pocket planes", either within the "regular" inner planes, or spun off from the inner planes and now "closer" to Athas. Maybe they work based on the circular universe theory: walk far enough in one direction, and you end up where you started.
The Black - this may sound really stupid, but I wonder if its connected to the Brown Tide. Maybe the Brown Tide wasn't destroyed...it became the black. Just a random thought.
Weenie:
Perhaps kinda like the Quasiplane of Radiance?
You're close. Athas basically has the four Elemental realms that are standard: Air, Fire, Earth, and Water (with Water being the weakest and formerly the strongest); four Paraelemental realms: Sun (instead of Smoke), Magma (as normal), Silt (instead of Ooze - this is suspected to be a corruption due to the type of magic Dark Sun uses, draining life from living things), and Rain (instead of Ice - maybe it was a plane of Ice at one time, but the heat of Athas has since evaporated it into torrential storms).
The Quasiplanes still exist, but Athas lacks a Positive and Negative plane, so these planes are absorbed into their larger brethren who has the most influence over them. Athas' Inner Planes are at war with one another, mostly the Elements vs. the Paraelements. For this reason, the Quasielements are all over the place, depending on which parent realm has the most influence. Here's what they are and where they're attached: Radiance (Sun), Vacuum (Sun), Ash (Magma), Mineral (Earth), Dust (Silt), Steam (Water), Salt (Water), Lightning (Rain).
All of this, with the exception of the Quasiplanes, is established Athasian cosmology, straight from the books.
Well done on those write-ups, by the way. Athas is similar to the regular planes, but different in very fundamental ways, typically having to do with gravity and survivability: a lot of the Elements have had to band together to survive the onslaught of both the Defilers on the Prime and the Paraelements on the Planes, so you'll find plenty of Air on Earth, Extreme hot Springs on Water, Lakes of Coals on Fire, and huge "islands" in Air. Compared to the Inner Planes of PS, though, Athas is very young.
I was reading through the old GM's guide that came with the original boxed set. Is it just me, or does the Gray sound a lot like the Gray Wastes? Granted, there's significant differences: the Gray's a place of dreams and undead, the Gray's a place for mindscapes. But there is the Wasting, which is kind of what I see happening when a person goes to the Gray: they have a hard time leaving and if they get stuck, they get absorbed (they'd turn into nothing instead of a larvae, however).
Thinking out loud: Between the gray ~ gray wastes, the inner planes sorta ~ regular inner planes, it kinda sounds like some event in the distant past of PS caused part of the Gray Wastes to "break off" to surround Athas, same with inner planes. Is there rumors of a fourth gloom of the gray wastes somewhere in PS material, or at least part of the plane vanishing? I've heard of stuff like that in some places in the material. Maybe something to do with the Blood War caused these events, which in turn created Athas?
Something to consider.
four Paraelemental realms: Sun (instead of Smoke), Magma (as normal), Silt (instead of Ooze - this is suspected to be a corruption due to the type of magic Dark Sun uses, draining life from living things), and Rain (instead of Ice - maybe it was a plane of Ice at one time, but the heat of Athas has since evaporated it into torrential storms).
Oooh, I like this.
/me takes more notes
I am imagining each plane joining into one sphere. Each area would have its own Planar qualities and its own boundaries. Example: The plane of water would be much smaller than the plane of silt which would surround it.
This way all the elemental planes would be rolled into one.
How I see the Planes connecting: (Planes will be all caps, FIRE, EARTH, ect.)
EARTH can be walked upon: This area is very dusty with winds from the Plane of air blowing it about.> This would be the Plane of DUST. A touching point between EARTH and AIR . Mountains can be seen cutting their way through the sky ( remnants of battles won with the Plane of AIR).
EARTH can be moved within: This area is pure Earth with chunks of mineral within. Movement through this "pure" Elemental plane requires some spell, power, or Ability. Otherwise one can travel through the caves, tunnels and chasms, that riddle the upper layer of the plane ( these are remnants of battles lost to the Plane of AIR.)
MAGMA : This Plane can be reached by Walking on the surface of EARTH or moving deep within it. One cannot move through this Plane without using a spell, power, or ability, and not suffer the consequences.
FIRE: This Plane often rests upon MAGMA that is touching AIR (I.E. on the surface of EARTH, or in it’s chasms, caves and tunnels.) When one is on the surface of EARTH approaching an Ocean of MAGMA one can see FIRE swirling about, miles and miles wide, stretching up to hundreds of miles in to the sky. Tornadoes and vortices of pure fire jump off the MAGMA on to EARTH’s surface carried by the wind. This Plane has many different possible modes of travel. One is on the surface of EARTH where FIRE joins it. The other is on the surface of MAGMA. The other is flying through it in its conjunction with AIR.
AIR: This Plane constantly struggles with the surface of EARTH. Tornadoes, vortices and dust devils constantly wear at EARTH. Movement through AIR requires spells, powers, or abilities, often the ability to fly. This Plane also touches FIRE and WATER. A Ball of fire rests in AIR as the Plane of SUN.
WATER: It is rarely ever found upon the surface of EARTH. As the Oceans of SILT swallow it up. Most of it is found within EARTH as well in underground rivers or even pooled up in caves and tunnels.
SILT: Rests upon the surface of EARTH. Oceans and oceans of it dominate, the surface of EARTH being blown about by AIR.
That’s enough for now. I hope you can see where I was headed.
In the old PS guide to the Inner Planes it detailed that even though that an element may be the predominate element on their respective plane they were not totally devoid of the other three. Example being that fire is the dominant element on the Plane of Fire (duh), however, the other elements are present as well, as rare as they maybe. (i.e. there could be an Oasis of water of the plane of fire).
Something to consider.
I could work with that, but I'd think more likely a boiling lake with perpetual steam.. showing the fire's dominant influence.. pick some reason why the steam forms back into water, maybe there's earth nearby, and it forces the steam to coalesce back into water again, which drips down.. you get it :P
I could work with that, but I'd think more likely a boiling lake with perpetual steam.. showing the fire's dominant influence.. pick some reason why the steam forms back into water, maybe there's earth nearby, and it forces the steam to coalesce back into water again, which drips down.. you get it :P
I hear you. I just feel that it makes sense that there would be some of the other elements existing on the other elemental planes. Pockets of air on the Elemental Plane of Water or chunks of earth floating in the Plane of Air. As I said, an inner plane is occupied by a single predominate element, but not solely or only by one.
I don't quite like the idea of the elemental planes touching though, not in that fassion, I prefer the concept of sections or areas where a paraelement intrudes, like a volcano on EARTH, and if you could follow through the heart of that volcano, you'd find a natural Gate back to Magma.. that type of thing.. but putting them in the same geographical area makes these distinct planes like just some world with an ecology even more haywire than Athas...
All inner planes are connected, much like the multiverse at large. If you were walking on Earth towards the plane of Magma, you would notice it steadily getting hotter and hotter. The mountains would start to turn to volcanoes, and so on.
I was just trying to elaborate on this idea with all the Planes that touch the Dominant Element, Earth.
I prefer the concept of sections or areas where a paraelement intrudes, like a volcano on EARTH, and if you could follow through the heart of that volcano, you'd find a natural Gate back to Magma.. that type of thing..
I was trying to incorporate the intrusion of the paraelements and how they bridge into each elemental plane. I was also wanting to show the push and pull between the Elemental planes especially the dominant but “opposing” allied Elements like Air and Earth. With quasi elements thrown in, Dust. I was trying to display their connection visually right before entering one of these “portals”. Volcanoes! I forgot about those yeah those too on the surface of EARTH.
but putting them in the same geographical area makes these distinct planes like just some world with an ecology even more haywire than Athas...
I can see how this could be confusing with so many connections from one Elemental plane to the next. The deeper you go into the middle of these Elements, Paraelements, whatever, the closer you get to its pure form. It shouldn’t be that much different than what everyone has been talking about. Would it be like some crazy ecology crazier than Athas? Hell ya! It represents how out of whack the Elemental planes are!
Good, but it's a solid departure from Earth, Air, Water, and Fire.
I didn't think I was completely off. I was Just trying to describe the juncture points of the various Elements.
I went back and read Fire Air Earth and Water.
Element that doen't belong was explained as possibly resulting from magic by the whim of who ever. Like water in fire, or Chunks of earth floating in the sky.
One thing I completly changed, was how easy it was to traverse through the Elemental Planes. "Walking on clouds of steam."In the Plane of Air. "Swimming" through silt." on the Plane of Silt. I think only those that have the proper powers should be able to traverse these Planes. High level Clerics, Wizards, Psions and those with the power, traits, and ability to do so.
Forgive me for straying from the Canon.
I figure we can all learn from each other and with each new idea more ideas spring. I really liked your concept of caverns of air in the plane of earth representing a won battle by Air long ago That's an excellent concept it's been a long time since I've read earth air fire and water also, I think it's laying around here somewhere :P i've just always thought of the different planes as seperate.. I mean, I thought of them as all their own distinct reality.. not everything in one... mostly along the lines of a reality that completely is dominated by it's element... Earthquakes and gemstones and soil and salt and minerals all within the boundless reaches of Earth, etc.. however, I think someone came up with the idea previously of an elemental plane being represented by itself dominating athas... but modified to represent it's overral influence on that sphere.. Maybe I'm chopping the idea a bit but it makes me think of something else...What if each of the elemental planes, being tied to the results on Athas as it is, actually looks like Athas, but it resembles what Athas would look like if that element dominated.. mix in a little of other elements for cohesion... So an "Air" Athas would look like a desert, or lightly forested realm, good for birds and other air creatures, with high winds passing through canyons, whistling and free, few real obstructions to their passage, the canyons being much like a slide is for humans, we still go from the top to the bottom, the slide doesn't stop us, but the resistance, actually sliding.. is kinda fun
so we keep those.. Earth would be lush and green, and would extend deep beneath the surface, gems would well up through fissures with great pressures forming immense gemstones.. where in real athas there are rivers or oceans, on Earth there are depressions and valleys.. "Fire" would be an Athas with everything ablaze.. trees burning everywhere continually, smoke in the heavens, rocks cracked from the heat. There would be perhaps an increase in temperature or power in the locations where Athas has cities.. do to the paralel of Athas' city dwellers using fire often... Water Athas would be a hard one to do.. places where it used to dwell would be muddy or salt flats, sometimes exactly mirroring those on Athas itself.. Ancient Fossilized coral could be found in these areas.. travel on Water Athas would be much like it is on normal Athas.. moving from one body of water to another, the distances between being very hazardous and without much moisture... a far cry from the plenty it once held in ancient times..to reflect areas on Athas that have little of these elements, simply allow there to be an absence of that element, in an extreem.. make it very cold between hot spots on "fire" and make the bad earth on "earth" be like quicksand, (or silt if you must)...
That leaves the paraelements.. you could have Athas be it's own sun :P or you could have it be somewhat different.. same goes for magma and silt etc, you get the idea..
By using the Athas double for each plane.. that leaves room for the para-elements to encroach on the actual plane itself.. silt being intrusive where water once held sway.. and magma in those "cold" spots on fire.. it needs some work to make it doable.. but it's just a concept... I mostly like what happens when a formerly powerful element that dominates it's version of Athas, begins to loose sway, and you have the paraelement stuff left over in those empty spots :P.. or you could leave quasi instead.. just a thought.
So anyway, Joboo, keep those ideas coming
personally if you have more ideas on the effects of ancient wars I'd like to see it (perhaps the para elements got started when the cleansing wars began and defiler magic caused an imbalance, and the elements jumped for power, clashing heavily, creating the paraelements in their battles.. )Each of the eight elemental and paraelemntal planes resembles an area composed almost entirely of the raw material of that plane. Foreign elements often exist in these planes for several reasons. Some material has been left behind as a reasult of battles or captured elemental foes. Other deposits may have been created by magic, the whims of the creatures that live there, or may have washed over from a neighboring plane.
Between an element and the paraelements it borders, the composition of the land slowly changes from one to the other. Between magma and fire for instance, there are jutting pillars of earth that appear as if the very stones that comprise them are about to melt.
Each of the elemental and paraelemental planes is briefly described below, and the DM should use these as guides whenever a PC travels to the planes.
On Athas, the plane of earth is a vast desert ridged on all sides by majestic mountains and jagged outcroppings of rock. The land is dotted with tunnels and caverns, and strange rock islands float lazily in place of clouds.
The realm of fire is a reddish land awash in a labyrithine walls of flame. Great gouts of fire shoot randomly from the crimson earth, and the shimmering heat gives everything a hazy, hellish look. Far in the distance, the horizon seems to be made of impassible fires the size of mountains.
Water's plane is a series of sandy islands, drifting in from the plane of earth, and surrounded by muddy tides of murky brine. Most of the spirits live beneath the rippling surface, an one may venture anywhere without fear of drowning. Here, a traveler will see little but water and pillars of sand that form the islands.
The plane of air is a vast, seemingly endless expanse of nothing - except air. Dark clouds from the plane of steam sometimes float through here, and a traveler can leap from cloud to cloud without fear of falling. If he falls, he simply lands on another cloud. The creatures that live here float on fierce breezes, or dwell in secret that the very center of a floating cloud.
The realm of silt bears a striking resemblance to the Sea of Silt on Athas, and some wonder if the simularity is more ominous than anyone imagines.
A traveler in the realm of silt quickly sinks beneatht he surface and finds that he can move by swimming, as if he were on the plane of water. Visibility, however, is nonexistent, adn the creature that live here seem to sense visitors by other methods. Of all the ethereal planes [sic] silt is one of the most uncomfortable to visit.
The sun's realm is similar to that of air. It is a great sky lined with a carpet of clouds, though no wind dares disturb them. The glorious sun hangs forever in the sky, and is golden rays are actually visible as they shine down on the brilliant clouds below.
As inhospitable as the realms of sun and silt are, they are nothing compared to the terrible plane of magma. Giant volcanoes surround travelers here, spewing smoking streams of fiery magma over the glowing coals of earth that line this place. Dense clouds of smoke and ash fill the skies, and the spirits that live here dwell in the huge banks of molten earth that roll ponderously over the land.
The sphere of rain is a dreary place. Dark, funnel-shaped clouds cover the sky, pierced only by the jagged lightning bolts that blast the wet mud on the ground into crater size puddles of liquid.
It is these descriptions that Planes of Athas will be based on. Basically, my goal is to expand each of these paragraphs into roughly 10-12 pages of detailed information. Also included will be new rules, spells, classes, etc.
No offense intended, I was just stating that what you state is a departure from one of the few Dark Sun books that doesn't have any glaring inconsistencies. The page I'm talking about has one paragraph for each realm, and they're pretty sparse in description. What they do have, though, is fairly specific:
It is these descriptions that Planes of Athas will be based on. Basically, my goal is to expand each of these paragraphs into roughly 10-12 pages of detailed information. Also included will be new rules, spells, classes, etc.
works for me
I won't complain though I am curious.. if the realms are bordering each other.. and they can be physically walked to from one to the other.. how is Air mostly Air?? where does the ground go.. or is that a mist?? a layer of cloudstuff instead of ground?? And what's under all that water?? and is there ground still in Sun?? I'm just curious how far each element bleeds into another is all..though I am curious.. if the realms are bordering each other.. and they can be physically walked to from one to the other.. how is Air mostly Air?? where does the ground go.. or is that a mist?? a layer of cloudstuff instead of ground?? And what's under all that water?? and is there ground still in Sun?? I'm just curious how far each element bleeds into another is all..
I was also wanting a detailed description of this. This what I was trying to talk about earlier. I was trying to brain storm on the bleeding points between planes.
I was thinking with the Earth plane first (perhaps due to the Earth cleric that is presenting the info) mostly because it is the Dominant element.
I would like to see the planes have a definite up and down. But when one travels through the pure elemental planes one has the chance of getting lost easily (try moving through the pure element of earth without tremorsense).
Where Air and Earth meet it is a definite dividing boundary, with dust swirling about making it hard to see. Since the two are no longer at “war” (uneasy allies at best, if you can call them that) perhaps the bleeding point or “surface of earth” can be traveled. I was thinking gravity dominant toward the plane of Earth. To leave that plane just go up into the sky through the dust. However one would have to fly to leave that realm. I figured past the dust, Earths pull would not be so great and falling wouldn’t be so hazardous. When one gets into the pure element of air I think side to side there are no boundaries, you will eventually come back where you left. At some point you could hit say the plane of rain (perhaps this is a massive storm cloud similar to the cerulean storm, its mirror image perhaps or cerulean has a duel planed nature?). Travel upwards could take years before one notices any sort of planar boundary. This is where I get weirder
, the boundary of air at its highest point reaches the Astral plane, the bleeding point looks like the sky of Athas at night. With the exact same constallations! (Departure? I think so ) From a certain perspective. Contemplate this. If you have a Shaper in your party who knows True Creation, then making items of any substance is not a problem. It justs costs a little XP. To save a little XP initially, you can just create the base item and enchant or empower it later. But through use of this power, exotic raw materials are readily available.
That's a good point. I would say that there is something about Athas that prevents it from happening (shaping draws on elemental power, maybe?), otherwise, someone would have done it. There are spells and psionic powers that are capable of doing the same thing at higher levels. I won't be covering it in the Planes of Athas, but it's a good point.
If you wanted to include it in the planes of Athas....perhaps the Astral plane is closer to the elemental plane then we originally thought. (Just trying to get the whole picture, and make sense of it all.)
I kind of see the inner planes along the lines of the great ring concept in PS, but on a smaller scale. The paraelemental planes exist on the fringes of the other elemental planes and are sort of a transitional plane leading to the others. Example, the Paraelemental Plane of Magma is in between the Planes of fire and earth, the Plane of Sun lies between the Planes of Fire and Air. Those plane can be reached by crossing thru the paraelemental plane.
Furthermore, I’d even say there are some virtually unknown planes due to their rarity on Athas. A plane of Ice or Snow would be an interesting concept. That being a demiplane of sorts that exists between the plane of Air and Water where the Grey or Black over lapse in some way perhaps.
As an element gains more dominance on Athas its plane could increase in size causing the others to shrink as that elements encroaches or swallows up a portion of their realm.
Just some random thoughts I’d throw it the mix. More than likely they’ve already been addressed.
I was thinking gravity dominant toward the plane of Earth. To leave that plane just go up into the sky through the dust. However one would have to fly to leave that realm. When one gets into the pure element of air I think side to side there are no boundaries, you will eventually come back where you left. Travel upwards could take years before one notices any sort of planar boundary. This is where I get weirder
If you wanted to include it in the planes of Athas....perhaps the Astral plane is closer to the elemental plane then we originally thought.
Here's a few additional thoughts if the Astral Plane is connected to the Air Plane theory is well accepted.
The plane of Sun could actually exist within the Astral plane ( instead of being surrounded by its enemy AIR). The Astral plane would be surround Sun.
Within the Astral Plane all elements can be found floating about in peices or chunks. Balls of fire, pockets of air, chunks of Earth, shards of Ice.
These floating elements could potentally lead a character to the Depth of the Inner Elemental Plane. A large chunk of Ice could have a gateway to the plane of water for example.
As far as I can remember, Psionics rely on the Astral Plane for its power. Perhaps, the conection of the Astral plane to the elemental planes would help explain the dificulties that Psions have in creating metals with their powers.
I was also playing with the idea that Psionics can only create Elements in the exact ratio that they exist on the Elemental planes. Creating water would be more difficult than creating silt. This way Psionic use never affects the balance or unbalance of the Elements. In a way Psionics always respected the Elemental planes balance in power without interference. The Astral (when used by psions ) instead reflected the existing conditions of the planes.
Perhaps Arcane magic would instead steal from the plane when using spells that create elemental effects?A Psion creating water would copy fire with Astral stuff. A mage would instead steal the fire from the Plane of fire. Just a thought. Perhaps even preservers don't realize what they are doing.
Anyways, I was thinking the Astral plane would resemble and take the place of outer space. One cool way to get to the Astral plane from Darksun would be to simply Fly there (provided that you don't run out of time on your spell and you don't get tired.). Oh yeah the next thing I am about to mention, once you get to the Astral plane you have to worry about suffocation.
Vaccum. I though it would make more sense if Vacuum co-existed in the whole Astral Plane. That way physical travel would require the problems dealing with the lack of Air. The condition of Suffocation would be prevalent.
Would it connect to the Grey? Would it Connect to the Black?
Perhaps none of this makes any sense. Sorry had to get this stuff out of my head. ;)
Within the Astral Plane all elements can be found floating about in peices or chunks. Balls of fire, pockets of air, chunks of Earth, shards of Ice.
Sounds similar to Limbo.
Instead, I think they may well be alternate versions of Athas itself - including the Black and the Gray. They're ways the world could have been, if things had gone differently. They split off from Athas Prime as a result of the changes and choices made there, and they continue to respond to the decisions the Athasians make - and vice versa.
I speculate that the terrain in each of these other worlds mimics Athas exactly, but with an elemental twist. The same mountains in the same places (for those planes that have mountains), the same lakebeds (which may contain magma or earth), the same forests or remnants of forests (the Plane of Rain has a mangrove clump where once Athas had trees, thousands of years ago), maybe even the same settlements, populated by elementals and ruvoka instead of humans and mul.
It has a paraelemental plane of Ooze, too - it's the border between Water and Silt. The border between Water and Rain is also going to be very oozing.
Athas must have an Astral Plane, since that's where the githyanki and psurlons come from.
Sounds similar to Limbo.
I was kind of going for that but not as chaotic. It would be a bit of a mix of the two planes in description.
I figured If Athas is "closed" it could have its own Astral plane as well. Maybe the Grey surrounds the Astral boarders preventing (hindering) anyone from leaving the Athasian cosmology.
What about psionic powers that use Astral stuff and the Astral constructs? With no Astral Plane these powers will have to be re-explained or omitted.
IMO making the Astral plane so Athasians can see it at night would be very interesting. It would also give the Stars and sky of Athas a more supernatural feel and meaning. What better explanation could you have of Athas's constallation and starry sky?
Since Psionics are usually attached to the Astral in other settings, this would provide Athas with a unique look at it. Also, in real world civilizations of the Ancient past, the stars played a very important part of their world and mythology.
I personally would like to have most things explained instead of the simple but frustrating awnser "no one knows how it works it just does". But If this is the only way to prevent a riot from the Cannonites ,then so be it! <
The Grey replaces almost every extraplanar energy source that isn't Shadow or Elemental in nature. Astral simply is not present. It's one of the unique things about Athas. By the very nature of the Astral, it isn't so much a realm as the place BETWEEN the Prime and the Outer Planes. No outer planes = no space in which the Astral is present. If you want to know what planes ARE present, check out Preservers and Defilers, and Earth, Air, Fire and Water. And once again, I have to cite the difference between RULES MECHANICS and FLAVOR TEXT. The ExPSiHB was not designed with alternate cosmologies in mind, but if you look in the DMG, it states ways to alter the text of spells and powers to suit places where certain planes are present.
Speaking of which, wasn't the Astral also supposed to be the "Plane Of Thought" with ties to psionicists. This is going to be handled with "Grey Constructs", instead of "Astral Constructs"? "Black Constructs?
Flavor seems a little off IMHO. I'd like an 'Astral Plane' to remain, but localized mostly to the minds of Psionicists, and to a lesser extent, other thinking beings.
Psionics still makes use of the Astral and Etheral, but it requires effort to push aside the disolved Grey to access the Astral. Psychoportation also requires travel through the Etheral, but requires forming a tunnel the Grey. Psionics is thus separating the Astral, Etheral and dissolved souls on a very local scale. When the Psionicist no longer exerts his will, these combine to form the Grey again.
Athas doesn't have an Astral or an Ethereal Plane according to many canon sources, unfortunately. While I wouldn't deny that I have used them on occasion, nor would I deny your right to use them, in the Planes of Athas, neither plane will be included in the Athasian cosmology.
Do you intend to explain why athas is severed from the rest of the mulitverse or treat the world as a stand-alone setting?
I'm pretty sure we're going with the Grey as the inhibitor to planar travel, with a miniscule posssibility of escape, and if you make it, you can get to the multiverse at large. , but I'll confer with the team.
In that case: The grey could be a distortion of astral silvery grey. It could be a sort of a cancer inside the astral, trapping that portion of the Shadow Plane inside it (The Black). The Black could then function as a Darkplace as described in the Manual of the Planes (MotP).
This way you would keep the cosmology close to the mechanics of the MotP and thus stay partially true to cannon.
The reason for this astral distortion? Many possibilites, here's one:
Maybe someone in athas' past tampered with astral counduits in the athas region, and turned one of them inside-out, effectively "wrapping" it around the world, barring any new conduits access. Conduits are known for their strength and I've never seen mention of anyone managing to teleport within one or even destroy one.
The one that tempered with it would have to be close to a diety, (don't know if the cosmology has any in its past) but maybe he/she tried to do something weird with the belief system of D&D or something like that and barred the world from the rest of the multiverse.
Do you intend to explain why athas is severed from the rest of the mulitverse or treat the world as a stand-alone setting?
Yes. I think it's mentioned in this thread, earlier, but it might have been in the other related thread. Essentially, Athas is isolated, but not separate, from the Great Wheel. It exists in the same universe, but cannot get out.
The Gray, in my opinion, is both a corruption of the Astral and the Negative Planes, as the undead of Athas come from the Gray.
The Gray, in my opinion, is both a corruption of the Astral and the Negative Planes, as the undead of Athas come from the Gray.
I thought similar, but you seemed to contradict me earlier in the thread. I thought the Grey was a corruption of the Astral, Etheral, and Athasian Souls, all mashed together. Were you responding to someone else? Or is this just personal opinion that won't become official?
I was once of the opinion, that the planes were the same for everyone, and that there were alternate prime materials, (like jumping from sphere to sphere in spelljammer almost). but that the planes were basically the same.. are there alternate other planes too?? With Athas' crazy makeup, it would seem so.. I don't remmber there being outter planes mentioned before, but maybe they were, but if they aren't.. what if the elemental planes on athas, which grant powers to mortals.. are really the abused remnants of the outer planes, after some sort of cosmological catastraphy created the grey, and sealed off Athas.. maybe the grey is the polution left after that separation.
Lyric, check your email, and send your opinion of what we came up with to the team. What we came up with may bring some clarity to the Elementals being able to grant spells, and we want your vote.
Back to what I was saying earlier (sorry Term). I was looking for a place to put the Planes of Sun and Vaccum. Earlier I was saying that the sky of Athas could be part of the Astral.
If the the Grey was in fact a layering of planes or a corruption of planes, Etheral, Astral, and Negative energy.
What if the Athasian sky is actually a pocket of Astral within the Grey. The only reason that this pocket would exist would be because the plane of Vaccum exists in that part, a place that keeps the Grey frome covering the Area (except above the Obsidion plains where the sky could always be grey because it is the Grey). The Plane of Sun could exist in or Near the vaccum. This way Sun would Appear to be in the Cosmos. Also its Enemy, Air wouldn't be surrounding it.
The Grey is still the Grey, the Astral plane exist within it, And the night sky of Athas is really a section of exposed Astral caused by the Plane of Vaccum sucking away the Grey that normally covers it.
Sorry, guys I know this stuff is not part of the holy documents. I just have to share my Ideas. ( If I don't I could permanantly GO INSANE!)
The Inner Planes of Athas are accessed by a few different ways, but there is no Ethereal Plane. The closest Athas has is the Gray, which doubles as kind of an Ethereal Plane/Negative Plane mix with a little bit of weirdness tossed in for good measure (it's a haven for undead spirits who have not been absorbed into the plane).... Athas doesn't have an Astral or an Ethereal Plane according to many canon sources, unfortunately.
That's not really true. The Gray is not really a transitive plane since it blocks planar travel instead of being a planar highway. And Athas has an ethereal plane distinct from the Gray. The Gray is a planar buffer/blockage between the Prime and the Ethereal/Astral.
From Defilers & Preservers (D&P, pp.9-11): "The Gray is a dreary, endless space, the place Athasians go when they die... In the Gray, the dead exist in a sort of limbo, floating aimlessly... Eventually, the spirits of the dead are dissolved and absorbed into the Gray... The Gray surrounds the portion of the prime that contains Athas. It separates Athas from the Astral and Ethereal, making planar travel difficult."
Inside of the Gray, is the Black, which is a cold, shadowy realm that's rarely described in any of the books.
I don't think the Black is inside the Gray. I doubt they are coterminous at all. The Black is "a realm of chill darkness similar to the Demiplane of Shadow". (D&P, p.9) It separates everything that exists (prime material) from everything that doesn't (the Hollow). Game-wise, I think it compatible enough to identify it with the plane of shadow. In fact, wizards who use the Black are called shadow wizards.
As for the Hollow, we know it's "beneath" the Black (whatever that means). Being everything that doesn't exist, I usually associate it with the Negative Energy Plane (minus all the undead there) since negative energy tends to drain a body to death, disintegration and nothingness.
On Athas, with no gods, it is the elements that are top dog... These are immensely powerful beings that may or may not have paraded as gods early in Athas' past.
I recall a Dragon magazine article providing a Dark Sun option for elemental summoning gone wild. The reason behind it is because the elemental lords are not true gods...
I agree with Weenie that rain should have some kind of concealment. Go easy on the lightning and add more water for the plane of lightning. And yes, I think Sun is closer to Radiance.
Also, IIRC, Draegoth (sp?) made a pact with the baatezu and in the City By The Silt Sea adventure module, the planar gate was focused on one of the layers of Hell (Cania, I think). So Hell should exist in Dark Sun too...
My 2 cp.
And so, since the function of the Grey we are most likely using in Planes of Athas is as Dawnstealer and myself have described, the Grey is indeed a transitive plane, because it is the way to the Athasian Inner Planes as well as being the medium for rapid travel along the Prime.
That's not really true. The Gray is not really a transitive plane since it blocks planar travel instead of being a planar highway. And Athas has an ethereal plane distinct from the Gray. The Gray is a planar buffer/blockage between the Prime and the Ethereal/Astral.
Correct, the Ethereal Planes and the Astral Planes still exist, but Athas does not have access to them, thanks to the Gray.
The Gray is a transitive plane for Athas. Teleport spells touch on the Gray and move through it in order to go from one place to another (they do not travel through the "Prime." Athas does not have an Ethereal Plane as it is beyond the Gray and inaccessible. I interpreted that same line from Defilers and Preservers to mean that the Ethereal and Astral Planes are not used by Athas because Athas cannot use them; they are blocked by the Gray.
I don't think the Black is inside the Gray. I doubt they are coterminous at all. The Black is "a realm of chill darkness similar to the Demiplane of Shadow". (D&P, p.9) It separates everything that exists (prime material) from everything that doesn't (the Hollow). Game-wise, I think it compatible enough to identify it with the plane of shadow. In fact, wizards who use the Black are called shadow wizards.
Semantics. Very few people could reach the Black directly (shadow wizards, shadow giants, shadow...whatevers), so the only other way to get there is to approach it through the Gray which, again in my opinion, surrounds everything about Athas in the same manner in which the Astral and Ethereal do for other worlds. In other words, if you were on Faerun, for example, how would you reach the demiplane of Shadow? You would go through the Astral, which Athas does not have, so I said the Gray. I still feel the Black is accessible to the Gray. Maybe not "inside," but "right beside."
As for the Hollow, we know it's "beneath" the Black (whatever that means). Being everything that doesn't exist, I usually associate it with the Negative Energy Plane (minus all the undead there) since negative energy tends to drain a body to death, disintegration and nothingness.
The Hollow was created by the Champions to imprison Rajaat. If you want to believe Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, then it was Nibenay who created it. Yes, it has some relation to the Black (either beneath, inside, or whatever) as Rajaat's ex-halfling followers are now shadow giants.
I recall a Dragon magazine article providing a Dark Sun option for elemental summoning gone wild. The reason behind it is because the elemental lords are not true gods...
Exactly. Paraded does not mean they are gods, so I agree with you totally. The Elemental Lords are certainly extremely powerful, and are certainly immortal, but they are not gods.
I agree with Weenie that rain should have some kind of concealment. Go easy on the lightning and add more water for the plane of lightning. And yes, I think Sun is closer to Radiance.
Totally agree here, as well. Quasiplanes are much weaker than either Elemental or Paraelemental planes, so will be represented, but not heavily so. That description of lightning is straight from Earth, Air, Fire, and Water, however, so I'd be derelict if I were not to include some of it.
Also, IIRC, Draegoth (sp?) made a pact with the baatezu and in the City By The Silt Sea adventure module, the planar gate was focused on one of the layers of Hell (Cania, I think). So Hell should exist in Dark Sun too...
In principle, I agree with what you're saying: Hell should exist. But not on Athas. Dregoth can breach the Gray with his planar gate and can thus reach out to the true Ethereal and Astral Planes. From there, he can reach the realms of the Nine Hells, the Abyss, and whatever else he wishes. So, in a sense, the Nine Hells have access to Athas, but only through Dregoth's Gate and whatever other artifacts are out there. Maybe this is another semantic argument, but I don't see the Nine Hells actually existing, physically, anywhere on Athas.
It's in line with the special way of the elemantal planes of Athas, as written in the Earth, Air, Fire and Water.
Now travelling (walking) on the elemental plane means a movement into the similar direction on Athas, like in the Shadow Walk spell. But with simple travelling you can't reach the other (para)elemental planes. You have to use plane shifting spell again, and you can go only to the neighbouring (para)elements. So if you are on the plane of fire first you have to go to the magma plane than you can go to the earth plane. The environment around you changes as written above, as if you shift from Athas to the plane. Of course the easiest way is to go back to Athas, as from there you can reach any (para)elemental plane with one plane shift.
On a bit of a tangent, the two wizard kits from 2nd edition, the Necromancer and Shadow Mage, which creates several problems for the setting not only in the form of removing the Preserver/Defiler dynamic but also raising questions about what would happen if one became an Avangion/Dragon, would be best handled as the setting's Warlocks. They draw energies from the respective planes, and gain spell-like abilities doing so.
Correct, the Ethereal Planes and the Astral Planes still exist, but Athas does not have access to them, thanks to the Gray.
But Athasians do have access to them. It's just that the access is hindered. The Gray does not block the Astral/Ethereal out completely. There is a % chance that you could get by the Gray to the Astral/Ethereal with a standard planeshift spell. Cast a few times and you are through.
In principle, I agree with what you're saying: Hell should exist. But not on Athas. Dregoth can breach the Gray with his planar gate and can thus reach out to the true Ethereal and Astral Planes. From there, he can reach the realms of the Nine Hells, the Abyss, and whatever else he wishes. So, in a sense, the Nine Hells have access to Athas, but only through Dregoth's Gate and whatever other artifacts are out there. Maybe this is another semantic argument, but I don't see the Nine Hells actually existing, physically, anywhere on Athas.
I think I'm confused. Inaccessibility is not the same as non-existence. Do you mean...
1. Hell exists in Dark Sun cosmology, but is very inaccessible from Athas due to the Gray; or...
2. Hell exists only in another cosmology, but not in the Dark Sun cosmos (just like Sigil doesn't exist in the FR Tree but you can try using shadow plane to get to other cosmology)?
And uuh... You mean Hell doesn't exist anywhere in Dark Sun cosmology or in Athas (as in the prime world)?
Perhaps, it would be clearer if you guys can map them out, or at least list which planes are coexistent/coterminous with which other planes...
No other planes besides the Grey and the Athasian Inner Planes and the Black( with the hollow somewhere in it's vastness) directly touch Athas. NONE. The Outer Planes and the major Inner Planes of the Great Wheel are ONLY accessible through Dregoth's Planar Gate.
Would I be right to take that to mean that you are essentially using the Great Wheel (plus the Gray) as Dark Sun cosmology? Or are you guys trying to redesign the whole cosmology like what they did to FR?
The Black is a little more ambiguous. We haven't even really tried to get a solid set of parameters for it, but I am going to push for it being used as an alternate transitive plane, like it is used in the d20 Modern RPG, whereas once in a blue moon you can use it to get from one plane on the Prime to another. Very slim chance, and ONLY successful at the DM's discretion. No percentages give, just an alternate route for the DM to use if he wants you to leave Athas, and getting to the Gate isn't feasable. I can't stress enough that no matter what kind of plane shifting spells or psionics you try to use, you will NOT get through unless the DM wants you to.
Hope this helps clear some stuff up.
Or are you guys trying to redesign the whole cosmology like what they did to FR?
They really didn't redesign the cosmology for FR, they just added an adjacent dimension (The Fugue Plane)and have portals lead directly to certain layers of the Planes, maybe with different names. It's almost like a linguistic thing. We call Spain Spain, but the Spaniards call it Espana,and the Romans called that whole region Gaul. Different names for the same place, only the last one includes a bit more adjacent territory. Hope this helps clarify that a bit!
Jon already made Necromant, Shadow Mage and Cerulean prestige classes for 3.5E. Check em out!
Nice PDF. Very good work. I did notice a typo on the Shadow Wizard PrC, however -- the first 3 levels on the level chart were cut off.
More to the point, this doesn't address the issues of the classes. There are certain inconsistancies with this, and, more importantly, it can trivialize the preserver/defiler conflict if not handled properly -- a Black Wizard Defiler, for example, can theoretically use all defiling feats with black energies instead of defiling feats, the ultimate "having your cake and eating too" situation.
The Black wizard can't do that, because it's not stated in the class that he can. Also, people keep either confusing or ignoring facts on the alternate caster issue.
While it's indirectly stated in the rules that a Black Wizard can't use defiling feats when not defiling, it stretches suspension of disbelief via the setting in my opinion. Defiling is essentially absorbing energy quickly, life energy specifically. The problem with Cerulians, Necromants, and Black Wizards is that they draw on alternate power sources, which might be explained as being limited due to the specific mechanics of the metaphysical connection, or the destructive nature of these energies (absorbing them quickly harms the user, but this doesn't work for an undead necromant or black creature black wizard). Further, there is no garuntee that such technics wouldn't be developed (which feats, ironically, simulate perfectly) for alternate spell energy sources, and then one must wonder why anyone uses life energies instead of alternate energies.
The common people would jump a preserver just as quick as a defiler, and they wouldn't even understand that a Necromant or Shadow Mage was anything but an especially spooky preserver or defiler.
Indeed they would; I do not dispute this.
The game mechanics are sound, because it makes the Wizard as viable a class as a wizard in any other setting. If you look at it from a strict rulebook perspective, a preserver and a specially caster are essentially no different. The differences are mainly fluff, and the game mechanics are almost exactly the same.
I am not exactly certain what you mean by this. Preservers are essentially PHB wizards -- this is true. Defilers were a seperate class in 2e, but were instead given additional feats in 3e due to constraints on the developing team. There should be PrCs open to preservers and defilers, as with any other class options; it only make sense.
However, Dark Sun is harmed, IMO, as a setting, when alternative energy sources are allowed for Wizards. There are many questions that just don't add up with these facts. The Sorcerer Kings are immortal, and obviously know of at least necromants and black wizards, due to their telepathic abilities. It stands to reason that, since most want power, they would have adapted use of gray or black energies as alternative sources of spell energy -- black and gray energies are abundant, unlike life energies, in the Table Lands. One also wonders why they wouldn't adapt gray or black energies into the metamorphasis process, allowing them to become dragons sooner, with less carnage. There is also the question of the Vield Alliance. It is difficult to believe they haven't run across these mages at one time or another, and using these alternative energy sources would fit well with their beliefs. Further, defilers would stand to gain much, being able to basically abstain from defiling whenever they desire to blend in and avoid detection while still having access to a measure of magic power, especially in desolate places where defiling causes power loss. Part of the drawback of defiling is you can't preserve, but that drawback is neatly removed by alternative power sources.
In Dark Sun, wizards draw on life energy; it's part of the setting. For this reason, necromants, black wizards, and cerulians should NOT be wizards, since they don't draw on life energy. They are arcane casters, true, but they are distinct from true wizards -- the preservers and defilers -- and as such, they can't become ascendant beings. Commoners don't know the difference, and to them they are all the same, and all equal fodder for a pitch fork. However, designing necromants, black wizards, and cerulians as the Sorcerers and/or Warlocks of Athas explains, neatly and nicely, using game mechanics, why the Sorcerer Kings, Veiled Alliance, etc, haven't turned to these alternate sources of power. It's arcane, but it's simply not wizard magic, secret fonts of lore held by shadowy groups that doens't interest larger organizations to a great degree.
As for Black Wizards, Necromants, and Ceruleans.. it makes sense that they won't be able to transform into Dragons or Avangions with their alternate source of energy, the spells involved require vast amounts of life energy, and Black Wizards don't use that, nor do Necromants.. they use a shadow or an echo of that energy residing in the grey, not pure enough for the transformation, though abundant enough for lesser spells.. Ceruleans however, draw on the life force of Tithian and Rajaat through the Cerulean Storm.. however, their art is so new, and so chaotic in nature, that the same spells wouldn't likely support them either..
If those types do reach an enhanced state of being, it's not likely to be a Dragon or Avangion, but something else.. with entirely different rules..
However, if you did wish to mix those powers that's fine, it's your campaign, I'm sure there are those who wouldn't mind turning Dregoth into a Necromant or in adding Sadira's sun wizard powers to someone like Hamanu without loosing their normal capabilties. Perhaps the SK's do use those alternate methods, however, the paths to Dragonhood are strict enough that those energies won't fuel their metamorphosis.
Maybe if the product line had been continued, we would have seen Shadow Dragons and Grey Avangions and such (shudders at mental image of Grey Avangion.) The simple fact is this. Dragon Kings came out a good length of time before Preservers and Defilers, and the product line was cancelled within a year or so after that. Quite simply, not enough time passed for the concepts to be blended and assessed, then put into new forms.
A valid point. It is all speculation at this point.
Also, even from a 3E perspective, it's not that big a deal. Just treat the character as normal, as if they had picked up any other prestige class on the way to a state of Advanced Being, it really doesn't conflict with anything or make any unresolvable issues.
Unresolvable, no. They are "holes" in the setting, however.
For the sake of simplicity, unless you're really good at making new game mechanics that are balanced, I wouldn't accentuate the abilities gained by the Prestige Classes and work enhancements above and beyond them into the prestige class, but it really creats no big issues to let an alternate caster advance.
That depends on what exactly is simple. Is it simplier to come up with a reasonable explination for why the things I listed aren't in the setting, and then design mechancis to support it beyond a cosmetic level (which, IMO, simply leaving the PrC with no impact on the ascension process would be, since incorperating new energy sources would radically alter it), or come up with a few new classes?
Personally, I don't find that it would be that difficult. Ceruleans could be straight sorcerers, with the lens and other material added instead of a familir. Black wizards and necromants could also be specific types of sorcerers, with adjusted spell lists, streamlined and much more limited for added abilities, perhaps a few more powerful than the average 20 level class, but no more powerful than the average PrC (these casters are so rare that they would be like PrCs anyway). It wouldn't take much, and as long as the understanding that they are a standard class and a PrC rolled into one, it would be very easy to balance. Designing any of these classes based on the Warlock class would require much more work and testing from the ground up, which I would personally love to do, though I lack the resources for fine-tunning.
Once again, I cite the distinction between GAME MECHANICS and FLUFF.
You can't seperate them that easily. The game mechanics support the fluff, but also explain and give it credence. There's a reason that each person who plays Dark Suns plays the game, and it's for the fluff; mechanics make it so it doesn't degerate into "I shot you first!" "No you didn't!" from the playground, but they are also the rules that govern the setting -- things work the way they do in fluff for a reason. A Fireball from a lvl 6 caster is weaker than one from a lvl 10 caster, and we know this from the mechanics, even though in fluff it burns hotter and more explosivly. You know that a cleric who can cast True Ressurection is more powerful than one who can't, because of the spell's levels, and that Finger of Death is more powerful for a Wizard than Slay Living is for a cleric (all things being equal) for the same reason.
When a PrC is compatible with a class, especially in the case of casting classes, where it so obviously builds on the casting abilities of the class with the "+1 to existing caster level", it translates into direct compatibility with that base class. Thus, with the cerulian, necromant, and black wizard, the mechanics translate certain notions into the fluff. Alternative energy sources are perfectly compatible with preserver and defiling magic; the fact that these sources stack for spell advanacement, as opposed to, say, a wizard and sorcerer, means that they are ultimately the same thing drawing on alternative eneriges. With this being the the case, it raises issues in the fluff, the reason why you are playing Dark Sun, issues that don't add up with the state of the setting. Arcane magic in Dark Sun is built on the conflict between defiling and preserving, and offering "outs" to anyone who takes a level in a PrC hurts the setting. What else can be expected when any power gaming defiler can side-step one of the key drawbacks of her/his class' power by taking a single level in a PrC?
Don't forget that even as a preserver, using that alternate energy source causes the random spells per day as a defiler.. so you may get more or less than you wished.. some may not like that.. it puts some commonality in play.
Not according to the Prestige Class Appendix Vol. 1. It simply states that using the alternate energy does not impact the environment -- even if one assumes that defilers still have the random spells per day, there is no reason to conclude that it also affects preservers. Further, even infering this for defilers is a rather large stretch -- the reason why this occurs is that the defilers are not careful or practiced in gathering energy, so they suffer in areas with scarce life energies, but gain in areas of high energies. There is no such lack of black, cerulian, or gray energies, and one could say that they are abundant. It is far more reasonable that such a defiler would always receive the spell bonus, not that all wizards recieve random spells per day.
You mention taking one level in a PrC to gain the alternate energy source? in the original your energy type was chosen on creation, and it wasn't that easy to switch around. perhaps a way to modify those PrC is to make it grant the ability to draw on that alternate source to power spells of up to a certain level depending on your PrC level.. Otherwise, everyone will take one level in Black Mage, one in Cerulean, one in Grey wizard, etc, and simply run around grabbing all the energy they need.. ("what? not enough energy in the black today? ok, I'll pull from the grey instead.. and if I still need more, I'll tap the ground... if I have too..")
Designing any of these classes based on the Warlock class would require much more work and testing from the ground up, which I would personally love to do, though I lack the resources for fine-tunning.
The Cerulean, IMO, is the best candidate for basing on the Warlock.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
The Cerulean, IMO, is the best candidate for basing on the Warlock.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
I would disagree for setting reasons. Ceruleans should be easily confusable with wizards, since they are linked to Tithian, and his possible future emancipation, in sinister ways. Sorcerers are close enough to wizards that no one is really going to notice except for actual wizards, and Ceruleans would be new enough that no one is really going to be questioning it very much. Then you throw in Tithian's subtle manipuations of his "followers", and you have a very nice plot device right.
Actually, the Warlocks make an excellent class in their own right for DS, but they should be said to draw their powers from Grey and the Black, because their powers are mostly based on spooky shadowy effects and raw bursts of power. The Warlock doesn't necessarily have to replace a pre-existing class or kit, because campaign worlds evolve and the rules for D&D have been updated twice since the official publication ended. If there's a new class you want to throw into your world, just do it. No need to shoehorn it in. Just make up a little backstory, like "This warrior guy got lost on the Obsidian Plains and through constant contact with and exposure to the energies of the Undead learned how to tap into the raw power of the Grey and the Black, thus developing abilities unlike any other seen on Athas to date" or "The Warlock class was developed by the Undead in the Dead Lands as while they were working on tapping the Grey for spell energy after the Disaster. The Warlock is a far less refined , raw type of arcane energy manipulation, representing the first steps in the Undead's development of Grey-based spells. Though less refined, however, the Warlock is no less potent, for the source of their energies never runs dry, and they have no limit to the times per day they can make use of their awesome Eldritch Blasts and Invocations"
Take the example of adding the soulknife. You just act like it was always there, and add a little flavor to give people ideas on how they can become one. You can just pop new classes in where you see fit, and yourr players will get it if outside the game you just say " I have some new stuff I'm throwing into the mix, just bear with me". You can even go further than the usual candidates, and include stuff like the Paladins of Slaughter and of Tyranny from Unearthed Arcana. They would make great elite warrior Templars, and match the alignments of the SKs.
The point I'm trying to make is that just because something wasn't there before doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be. Just make it fit.
Does this help at all?
I would disagree for setting reasons. Ceruleans should be easily confusable with wizards, since they are linked to Tithian, and his possible future emancipation, in sinister ways.
Why does being linked to Tithian make them confusable with wizards? Frankly, the blue aura that tinges everything they cast, including illusions, gives them away as what they are. A Cerulean.
IMO, the flavor aspect of warlocks... "Many warlocks are champions of darks and chaotic powers. Long Ago, they ... forged grim pacts with dangerous extraplanar powers... ." Indeed, it says for the cerulean that "(o)thers have been lured to the power by Tithian, ..." Also, Tithian is able to talk directly with a cerulean to plant subliminal urges that can alter a cerulean's alignment further evil. Afterall, the cerulean isn't tapping into the power of the storm to fuel their spells, they are tapping into the life spark of Tithian and Rajaat.
Flavor wise, the eldritch blast is easy to associate with the connection to the Cerulean Storm and Tyr Storms. Other than some flavor text cleaning, it seems the most ideal if you are going to associate a previous existing Athasian spellcaster type with a 3.5 class.
Why does being linked to Tithian make them confusable with wizards? Frankly, the blue aura that tinges everything they cast, including illusions, gives them away as what they are. A Cerulean.
It doesn't. That's why I would make Cerulean's sorcerers, since sorcerers are closer to wizards than wizards are to warlocks.
As for the blue aura, there are going to be obvious signs that they are different, but I would personally make those low key and somewhat subtle. Cerulians are new, and Athas never had sorcerers of any kind before; their magic would be similar, yet different, so most wouldn't know the difference, even some like druids and clerics, but those who would, like wizards, would be curious and explore the new means of casting, possibly as a replacement or supplement for wizard magic, since sorcerer magic can achieve the exact same spell effects. For example, a plot device could be that the VA decides to teach Cerulean casting to members, which starts placing them under the control of Tithian. This doesn't work nearly as well with warlocks, since they can't achieve the same spell results.
IMO, the flavor aspect of warlocks... "Many warlocks are champions of darks and chaotic powers. Long Ago, they ... forged grim pacts with dangerous extraplanar powers... ." Indeed, it says for the cerulean that "(o)thers have been lured to the power by Tithian, ..." Also, Tithian is able to talk directly with a cerulean to plant subliminal urges that can alter a cerulean's alignment further evil. Afterall, the cerulean isn't tapping into the power of the storm to fuel their spells, they are tapping into the life spark of Tithian and Rajaat.
It doesn't really work like that. Tithian's influence over Ceruleans is subtle, and often subconcious. Ceruleans don't forge the apocryphal "deal with the devil" that Warlocks did.
However, there seems to be some miscommunication. I didn't mean directly importing the Warlock into the setting, I meant that some of these classes should be designed around the spell-like abilities of the Warlock instead of having the more open-ended casting of wizards and sorcerers.
Ceruleans ARE wizards, just with an alternative energy source. They still know how to preserve or defile, and have spellbooks and such.
Actually, the Warlocks make an excellent class in their own right for DS, but they should be said to draw their powers from Grey and the Black, because their powers are mostly based on spooky shadowy effects and raw bursts of power. The Warlock doesn't necessarily have to replace a pre-existing class or kit, because campaign worlds evolve and the rules for D&D have been updated twice since the official publication ended. If there's a new class you want to throw into your world, just do it. No need to shoehorn it in. Just make up a little backstory, like "This warrior guy got lost on the Obsidian Plains and through constant contact with and exposure to the energies of the Undead learned how to tap into the raw power of the Grey and the Black, thus developing abilities unlike any other seen on Athas to date" or "The Warlock class was developed by the Undead in the Dead Lands as while they were working on tapping the Grey for spell energy after the Disaster. The Warlock is a far less refined , raw type of arcane energy manipulation, representing the first steps in the Undead's development of Grey-based spells. Though less refined, however, the Warlock is no less potent, for the source of their energies never runs dry, and they have no limit to the times per day they can make use of their awesome Eldritch Blasts and Invocations"
Take the example of adding the soulknife. You just act like it was always there, and add a little flavor to give people ideas on how they can become one. You can just pop new classes in where you see fit, and yourr players will get it if outside the game you just say " I have some new stuff I'm throwing into the mix, just bear with me". You can even go further than the usual candidates, and include stuff like the Paladins of Slaughter and of Tyranny from Unearthed Arcana. They would make great elite warrior Templars, and match the alignments of the SKs.
The point I'm trying to make is that just because something wasn't there before doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be. Just make it fit.
That's essentially what I'm trying to do. My problem with the Shadow Wizard and Necromant, and to a lesser extent (because they are so new), the Cerulean, is that it trivializes the Preserver/Defiler dynamic to an extent. Why would any defiler bother eating plants for your magic when you can take one level in a PrC and eat gray or black instead? It would certainly get those pesky druids off of you back, and Shadow Wizards and Necromants have been around long enough that the Sorcerer Kings would know their secrets, opening up a whole slew of setting problems.
By designing Shadow Wizards, Ceruleans, and Necromants as seperate classes, they are given a proper niche in Athas, without hurting the Preserver/Defiler dynamic. I'm not looking to simply import the Warlock into Dark Sun, I'm looking to use it's mechanics to make a real Athas "Warlock", based on existing content, and fix this problem at the same time. Ceruleans should be Sorcerers for the reasons stated above. For Black Wizards, I'm leaning towards a modified Sorcerer with more class abilties and a shorter spell list, since the Black is supposed to be a well of primordeal creation and destruction, but strange, etherial, and somewhat alien. Necromants would probably be Warlocks, since the gray is a rather limited in what it can do, but still powerful, so Necromants would have a small selection of abilities relating to various necromancy effects.
It doesn't really work like that. Tithian's influence over Ceruleans is subtle, and often subconcious. Ceruleans don't forge the apocryphal "deal with the devil" that Warlocks did.
Easily dealt with the hand-wave of flavor customization. Under background for the warlock: "The exact nature of a warlock's origin is up to the player to decide; just as a sorcerer is not beholden to the magic-wielding ancestor that bequeathed his bloodline with arcane power, a warlock is not bound to follow the source that gifted him with magic.'
In other words, do with the warlock what you will. The dark-power-pact is flavor to tease with as one wills, not written in blood contracts. It doesn't say anywhere that warlocks ever have to speak, see, or hear... ever... the entity giving them their powers. Here is a brainstorm to adjust the flavor text to getting the Warlock to fit for Ceruleans...
Maybe there were people who once made pacts with extraplanar dark entities (when Athas had links to those planes), and then passed this on to their ancestors. The link is still there today, but no entities with which to draw power from due to the barrier of Gray... until the Cerulean Storm showed up. Now those folks with past ancestors who made those pacts are able to use that innate, unexploited link, to draw upon Tithian's and Rajaat's lifespark in the Cerulean Storm.
I didn't mean directly importing the Warlock into the setting, I meant that some of these classes should be designed around the spell-like abilities of the Warlock instead of having the more open-ended casting of wizards and sorcerers.
I never assumed you meant direct import. I was going upon the idea of taking the class as written and using it as a template for some new designed "class" to use as an Athasian version.
Ceruleans confusability or interchangability to defiling/preserving wizards isn't a sacred cow to me. Their link to Tithian and the Cerulean Storm is... *shrug*
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Defiler magic will always have its place as the way to boost your spells at no cost to yourself, especially if you use the Dragon Magazine version of the defiler. Another key issue is that the DS line was discontinued when the whole campaign world was at an apex of change. Who knows what could have happened if the line continued? But one thing is for sure. Only a Defiler can do things like cast Wish without losing XP, as well as create items and such at no personal XP cost. They will always have their place.
That was never a core part of the rules. Such an option would be an a viable alternative, but since it has no real place in the current official conversion rules, it can't be considered official. Further, speculation is ultimately pointless, since we already have the official conversion.
Defilers can't cast Wish or make items without a personal XP cost, because it's not in the official conversion's rules -- it's a house rule, much like mine. If it suits your games, then use it. Personally, I the differences between preservers and defilers are already subtle enough in the official conversion that further muddying the waters ruins the entire point.
And, as a final point, you can have a place for something and still ruin it. Sure, defilers might get xp free Wishes, but that doesn't mean it won't be marginalized -- a smart defiler can just hide this aspect of her/his abilities with a level in necromant, for example, and then eat some plants for a fast inherent +5 bonus to intellect at level 20. Simply put, letting wizards side step life energies like this, defilers in particular, marginlizes them. Part of what identified defilers was that they always ate part of the enviroment when they cast spells, not that they could eat parts when they wanted.
With this sort of set up, then it would quite easy to have a good defiler -- a preserve until you get one level in necromant, fall to defiler, then plant groves of Tree of Life, and use those for spell xp, being careful not to kill any. In the end, it would be no different than harvesting grain. Defilers are supposed to be a dark class that sacrifices the enviroment for personal power. Being able to pick and choose when to do so eliminates the morally objectionable aspects of the class.
Easily dealt with the hand-wave of flavor customization. Under background for the warlock: "The exact nature of a warlock's origin is up to the player to decide; just as a sorcerer is not beholden to the magic-wielding ancestor that bequeathed his bloodline with arcane power, a warlock is not bound to follow the source that gifted him with magic.'
In other words, do with the warlock what you will. The dark-power-pact is flavor to tease with as one wills, not written in blood contracts. It doesn't say anywhere that warlocks ever have to speak, see, or hear... ever... the entity giving them their powers. Here is a brainstorm to adjust the flavor text to getting the Warlock to fit for Ceruleans...
Maybe there were people who once made pacts with extraplanar dark entities (when Athas had links to those planes), and then passed this on to their ancestors. The link is still there today, but no entities with which to draw power from due to the barrier of Gray... until the Cerulean Storm showed up. Now those folks with past ancestors who made those pacts are able to use that innate, unexploited link, to draw upon Tithian's and Rajaat's lifespark in the Cerulean Storm.
This is true, but the problem is that Ceruleans don't have this sort of free will. In 2e, there was a chance that Tithian could subtly influence a Cerulean's actions when he/she leveled -- if I remember correctly, it was built into the rules. It was a very real part of the class, and for plot reasons, Ceruleans should be as close to wizards as possible so their influence will spread, and a plot can be developed where Tithian influences the events in the Table Lands as he gets closer to his inevitable goal of freeing himself. It is simply a question of goals and views of the class. I personally believe that making Ceruleans Sorcerers serves the setting and the plot more than making them Warlocks.
Of course, if one is looking for a simple way to incorperate Warlocks as Ceruleans in the setting, that would work well. I am thinking of more comprehensive alterations.
I never assumed you meant direct import. I was going upon the idea of taking the class as written and using it as a template for some new designed "class" to use as an Athasian version.Ceruleans confusability or interchangability to defiling/preserving wizards isn't a sacred cow to me. Their link to Tithian and the Cerulean Storm is... *shrug*
Defiling/Preserving was a large part of the setting, and preserving that is important to me; confusion with Ceruleans isn't that large of an issue to me, since it could serve the plot. Ceruleans are new, so the development of Ceruleans methods as a replacement for life draining magics would be plausible and an interesting plot element for Tithian's return. The much older Necromants and Shadow Wizards, on the other hand, cause problems for the setting, since their existance would probably lead to the situation I described above. Of the three, I would have the least problem with Cerulean remaining a Wizard PrC -- Preservers and Defilers learn the Cerulean lore, and Tithian's influence grows, a shadow conspiricy that, if not stopped, would lead to Tithian's freedom. In a way, it would be even worse than Defiling.
Dude, the defiler rules I was citing were printed in Dragon Magazine # 315. It's just as official as anything from Athas.org., ask anyone on the board. Some might not prefer it, but it is official. Read it, and you'll understand.
Well, I don't have a copy; as for it being official, that is possible, but it is not official to the Dark Sun conversion, just as, say Libris Mortis is official but not official to Forgotten Realms. You can use the magazine system with the official conversion, but it's no more direct canon than Libris Mortis is direct canon for Forgotten Realms.
Their defiling system is awesome.
Also, defiling to replace XP and GP costs for spells are in the Dragon Magazine defiler.Just read it. Dragon #315.
I will have to take your word on this, since I don't have access to the issue in question.
And yes, the whole planting a tree of life thing works perfectly well. If it works in the rules, it works period. It's what Trees of Life are for. To give defilers an alternative.
I believe you missed my point. Trees of Life give defilers and alternative to leaving a wake of destruction in their residences, true. However, the restriction of this that Trees of Life aren't mobile, and they are limited in the amount of life force they can give -- inherent caps on their power.
If you introduce a PrC that strips the restriction of defiler radius in a portable, unlimited way, it kills the setting, even with free xp only for life-draining defiling. Defilier X can use gray or black energies for day-to-day spells, then draw on the Trees of Life specifically for item creation and xp spells in the comfort of her/his lair.
And nothing I post on these boards that I state as fact is ever speculation.
You mean, like where Dark Sun would have gone if it had not been dropped by Wizard?
I do my research. Do yours.
With specific issues of a magazine that I don't get and that doesn't have anything directly to do with Dark Sun outside of a few articles? While it would be nice if I could look into a magic 8-ball and get "Read Dragon Magazine #315", I don't have the time to hunt down more or less obscure rules articles I don't know about when a fully function offical conversion I can download is at my finger tips.
And just because a concept that WORKS WITHIN THE RULES perfectly well doesn't agree with yourt opinion of the moral implications of defiling, doesn't mean it doesn't and shouldn't work. I keep being forced to repeat this. When FLUFF and GAME MECHANICS come into conflict, GAME MECHANICS WINS.
I'm sorry, but if you think that game mechanics should win over "fluff", then you really don't have a good grasp on role playing or how the two effect each other.
Each RPG --Dark Sun, Vampire: the Masquerade, Call of Cthulu, etc -- exist to create a specific setting. The entire point in playing an RPG is to create a character in a world where you can do things you normally can't, experiance, in your mind, things that you will never see anywhere else, and do it with friends. There's absolutly nothing else I can't get out of any computer or table top strategy game or FPS that RPG's have.
In Dark Sun, a large part of the setting, and one of the reasons I, and other people, love it so much, is the nature of the magic system. Magic draws on life, and some used that to reduce Athas to what it is. Defilers are wizards who harm everyone with every spell they cast, and at best are nieve or clueless about what they do. Preservers take a higher path, sacrificing power to save the dying world. Anything that harms that dynamic harms the very fabric of the setting -- the harsh world, physically and spiritually -- by removing the very reason that Athas is a harsh world.
Mechanics have their place -- multiple people weaving a story together must have a way to decided what happens in a consistant manner that doesn't degenerate into a shouting match. But the rules ALWAYS take second fiddle. For quite simply, if I want a game based on tacticle combat in a grid with little plastic figures, I'll pull out Mech Warrior or Axis and Allies or Chess or Stratego -- they were specifically designed for it, and generally take alot less time and effort to set up. But I want to make a character and play Dark Sun, develop that character and that character's personality, and achieve things in the world and shape its future. That's the "fluff", which you dismiss, but in doing so you remove any real reason to play an RPG do begin with.
I said that I state as FACT. not as clear speculation, like the "where would Athas be".
Unless the development team for Dark Sun posted an interview on where they were taking the setting that I don't know about, where Dark Sun would have gone is complete speculation. Now, certain lines of speculation are arguably more valid than others, but it's all still speculation.
But no other comments?
Well, I don't have a copy; as for it being official, that is possible, but it is not official to the Dark Sun conversion, just as, say Libris Mortis is official but not official to Forgotten Realms. You can use the magazine system with the official conversion, but it's no more direct canon than Libris Mortis is direct canon for Forgotten Realms..
Ok, anybody in the know want to set this guy straight? ABout the Dragon Mag conversion, though much reviled, and not preferable to the work of Athas.org, still being JUST as official as far as canon and such? That it is considered Dark Sun FACT, albeit an alternative version? Jon? Nyt? Dawnstealer? Elonarc? Pennarin? Gab? Lukasz? Lyric? Flip? Sysane? Xlorep? Back me up on this, guys! Be the devil's advocate!
Officiality FAQ:
Q: I have heard about an official Dark Sun 3rd edition conversion produced by athas.org. Is this true, and if so, when will it be released?
A: Yes, it’s true. Even better, it has already been released. You can find it in the Releases section on the athas.org website available as a FREE download, along with a number of other official Dark Sun products produced by athas.org.
Q: I thought there were official Dark Sun 3rd edition rules in Dungeon/ Dragon magazines. Which conversion is “more” official – the athas.org one or the Dragon/Dungeon one?
A: Both are equally official. Athas.org has a mandate from Wizards of the Coast to produce new Dark Sun material, including a Dark Sun 3rd edition conversion. Seeing content in Dungeon and Dragon magazines are considered official, we have two official conversions. In other words, the fans have more options and can pick and mix elements from the two conversions if they please.
Q: Why doesn’t athas.org use the Dark Sun 3rd edition conversion from Dungeon/Dragon?
A: There are several reasons. The athas.org conversion is a fan-based conversion. It has the general support of the fan community and we have received feedback that it is more true to the setting flavor and previous material than the Dragon/Dungeon articles. Furthermore, the magazine issues with the Dragon/Dungeon conversions exist in limited print, and over the years fewer people are likely to have access to them than our conversion, which will remain free and available on the internet. Lastly, we see no reason to discard all the years of hard work put into our conversion.
I said the Where would Athas would Be response on my part was speculation.
The only part I was refering to as speculation was where Athas would have gone if it wasn't dropped by Wizard. To this you responded that you don't speculate; what we have here is a case of communication inversion.
you want some Tabasco to go with that CROW, Objulen?
I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong. You were correct on that issue.
That still leaves the rest of my post that you have not adressed. So why should I be eating crow?
Or do you only use Straw Men to support your views? The official status of Dragon Magazine articles was a tertiary argument.
But one thing is for sure. Only a Defiler can do things like cast Wish without losing XP, as well as create items and such at no personal XP cost.
And you got this from what source again?
I don't remember it being in the Paizo DS rules, but I really only paid attention to the initial Noonan defiler rules and ignored the rest of the Paizo conversion once I saw that they were going to almost totally ignore the fluff that makes Dark Sun what we all know and love.
When FLUFF and GAME MECHANICS come into conflict, GAME MECHANICS WINS.
I'm going to have to agree with Objulen and totally disagree with this.
What's the point of playing a tabletop RPG if we make mechanics take front seat? Might as well just play FF and all the other game console RPGers out there if you are going to do this.
And you got this from what source again?
I don't remember it being in the Paizo DS rules, but I really only paid attention to the initial Noonan defiler rules and ignored the rest of the Paizo conversion once I saw that they were going to almost totally ignore the fluff that makes Dark Sun what we all know and love.
The Wish part is because you can defile to pay XP costs, it's in the main defiler table where you you see how many points you get for what.
The defiling to pay item creation XP and GP costs is a logical extension of being able to defile for spell XP. When you create a magic item, the XP costs are essentially to pay for the spells involved, and it's easy to do the math and figure out how much land you need to defile for the XP involved, divided into segments for the number of days involved in the process.
The defiling for spell XP part is right from the magazine, and the Xp for items part is , at least to me, implied by this.
The item creation thing is , I'll admit, something I felt was logical and staring me in the face in the Defiler rules, though not implicitly stated, heavily implied.
And, to clarify, I was only asking to be backed up on the "officialness" of the Dragon Mag conversion.
So maybe a little crow for me too on the Item Creation thing, but the Defiling for Spell XP is official.
And, to clarify, I was only asking to be backed up on the "officialness" of the Dragon Mag conversion.
Yeah, I would have chimed in (most know how I am about this topic) if Jon hadn't beaten me to the punch.
If all else fails read my sig, I didn't put it there for the hell of it. :P
Anyway, I've said my piece.
Wasn't this thread supposed to be about Planes of Athas feedback? We're trying to develop this quickly, so I'm going to try to bring this thread back to that subject, though I am at least 50% responsible for derailing it.
So maybe a little crow for me too on the Item Creation thing, but the Defiling for Spell XP is official.
Its official if you use the Dragon/Dungeon conversion only.
Do realize that both conversions are incompatible in the domain of officialness. By that I mean that the Dragon/Dungeon conversion could not reference the athas.org conversion, and vice versa, due to legal issues, so athas.org can't say "Use the defiler rules in Dragon magazine".
Concerning defiling to replace XP or Cp costs of spells or items is a mistake IMO.
Defiling, at least in athas.org's conversion, has game applications (actual penalties are inflicted upon living creatures in its radius of effect), and as such any mechanic that replaces a component or cost of the spell with an increase in defiling radius opens a door for PCs playing defilers to cast such spells so as to increase his defiling radius and affect more creatures with it.
The PC has a choice to cast a higher level spell to increase the radius of his defiling, and at least one feat increases the radius also. Those two ways of increasing the radius are legal and balanced (a wizard has fewer higher level spells, and spending a feat is a permanent thing) while the method you described above is not.
Me and Methvezem designed this artifact that confers a lot of defiling abilities, including the Leech's life-draining radius ability. Meth came up with the idea the artifact could replace material component cost of spells with increased defiling radius. We discussed this and came to the conclusion its broken. The penalties inflicted by the defiling radius of a wizard with this artifact is so severe that its considered a weapon in its own right, so a character in possession of this artifact could intentionnaly cast costly spells for the express purpose of inflicting penalties on more targets than would normally be possible with even a 9th-level spell.
The same is true on a lesser, and less powerful, scale with ordinary wizards and the method of defiling you described.
I recall the info Jon gave me, or was it posted on the boards?, was that WotC prefered to go with a conversion of its own instead of using material from the athas.org website; something about Paizo unable to use material that has already appeared somewhere else.
My memory on this is vague. Ask upward.
In the end of my part of certain aspects of this debate, every DM has a different style. My game has always been based first in the rules, with flavor and fluff as secondary concerns....
That sounds more like a lack of trust of the DM on the part of the players and/or consistant application of the DM's rules. While rules take second fiddle is necessary that the DM remain consistant in her/his rulings and the reasoning provided -- what's good for the goose must be good for the gander, or there's no reliable way to determine what's going to happen. As for player trust, that has many factors that I can't really comment on without knowing specifics, but suffice it to say that any game where the players have little trust for the DM or lose trust in the DM, house rules, even when consistant, can cause problems, since someone will view them as being unfair.
And then there are people who are just inflexible on such matters, and those who want to get what they want, to hell with game integrity.
That sounds more like a lack of trust of the DM on the part of the players and/or consistant application of the DM's rules. While rules take second fiddle is necessary that the DM remain consistant in her/his rulings and the reasoning provided -- what's good for the goose must be good for the gander, or there's no reliable way to determine what's going to happen. As for player trust, that has many factors that I can't really comment on without knowing specifics, but suffice it to say that any game where the players have little trust for the DM or lose trust in the DM, house rules, even when consistant, can cause problems, since someone will view them as being unfair.
And then there are people who are just inflexible on such matters, and those who want to get what they want, to hell with game integrity.
There's no lack of trust. They trust me completely as the DM because if they think I'm wrong, they can crack open the books and prove it, without an argument from me if they are right. These is the primary reason my campaign has lasted so long. Over ten years. I must be doing something right
There's no lack of trust. They trust me completely as the DM because if they think I'm wrong, they can crack open the books and prove it, without an argument from me if they are right. These is the primary reason my campaign has lasted so long. Over ten years. I must be doing something right
I was refering to the games you mentioned that broke up.
It doesn't look like the Planescape folks wanted to participate, anyways. No matter, I've been GMing that realm for over a decade; think I can figure out whatever's missing.