The maps available online that show the Chainmail countries taking up most or all of Western Oerik do not, I believe, match the written descriptions of the metes and bounds of the Chainmail states. Looking at the written descriptions of the Chainmail states (and referring to the Dragon Annual Map), the whole of the region described in the Chainmail game is north of the Empire of Lynn. Ravallia is approximately where the Elvanian Forest is located (fitting for elves) but stretches from the coast to the mountains. The maps available online are incorrect.
If this reading holds up under further scrutiny (which it may or may not):
From north of the Empire of Lynn, Chainmail would be canon.
From the Empire of Lynn south, the Dragon Annual Map would be canon.
The Dragon Annual Map would also be canon east of the triple mountain range that separates the High Khanate and Celestial Imperium from the Kingdoms of the Marches (ie many of the Chainmail states), the Elvanian Forest (Ravallia) and the expansive Empire of Lynn. In other words, the Khanates and Celestial Imperium east on the Dragon Annual Map until you reach the Flanaess would be canon.
I think this reading will reasonably reconcile the Chainmail setting and the Dragon Annual Map, references to both of which appear in "canon" sources to this point. They can both be right.
Thoughts?
Respectfully submitted
Glenn Vincent Dammerung
I believe that the dragon annual maps are outdated, seeing as they list the suel and baklunish empires don't they? in my game I see nothing wrong with using both... the DA maps are the way wester Oerik was at about the time of the twin cataclysms, while the chainmail map is more of what it is like today.
It is hard to say whether the DA map is outdated in a grand sense. The references to Suel and Baklunish "Empires" suggests the map is old. That does not mean that equally radical changes have engulfed the rest of Western Oerik, however. Radical change could have been largely confined to the Empires of the Suel and Baklunish.
Whether one can use both maps depends on _which_ Chainmail map you are looking at, I suppose.
It is my thought that any Chainmail Map that shows Ravallia taking up most of Western Oerik is in error because the description of the "Sundered Empire" states has Ravallia in a forested area (Elvanian Forest?) _north_ of a desert (which is how the Empire of Lynn is described). Thus, the Chainmail or Sundered Empire states would take up only the northwestern portion of Far Western Oerik. I think.
Officially seen, Chainmail should certainly be regarded canon... It was an offically product, after all.
Although, indeed, it would be very hard to patch some relations between the Flanaess and the God Kingdoms (IIRC) together...
As a miniature game, I found Chainmail quite interesting, while I think that an indepth look to that setting is not worth the effort you have while trying to collect the material which is oop and expensive.
Most adventures set in the Flanaess have no ties to the other regions of the world, set aside the old Suloise kingdoms.
However, I think we REALLY could use an updated world map of Oerth, with Aquaria, Antaria (anyone remembers?), Chainmail, and maybe the oriental adventures on it... Too sad that I am such a bad cartographer... Volunteers?
AFAIC, the active Greyhawk community has ignored the possibilities of Chainmail a bit too long, in a time when some of the older Hawkers are unhappy with the current developments (LG) and when we have a lack of new material... Chainmail could have become something like the Zakhara or the Taladas of Greyhawk...
*No offense to anyone, of course*
The names alone from the Dragon Annual are pretty pathetic, if western Oerik ever does get developed, canon or otherwise, I hope they can do better than what we have been given so far.
What I thought was most interesting (weirdest) about the Chainmail map was that the six empires it had were HUGE. If the scale from the Dragon annual map was accurate, some of those empires would have rivaled or even dwarved the Aerdy empire at its height. :O The whole map seemed...off.
Absolutely!
When you read the descriptions, the Chainmail states are seen to lie in the far Northwest. They do not take up all of western Oerik. The maps are well done but wrong in their details - the extent of the Chainmail nations.
It was my understanding that the developers of Chainmail with a few exceptions could have cared less about Greyhawk canon, and basically did whatever they wanted. I have no problems ignoring the maps and background development wholesale.
The names alone from the Dragon Annual are pretty pathetic, if western Oerik ever does get developed, canon or otherwise, I hope they can do better than what we have been given so far.
If I had been given the decision, I would have opted not to do Chainmail the way it was done. It is what it is, however, and appears to be canon.
I can understand wanting to ignore Chainmail but I think a risk is thereby run. By most definations, Chainmail qualifies as "technically" canon. Of course, other "canon" material has been "de-canonized." The Rose Estes novels have been completely "de-canonozed," while "funny Castle Greyhawk" has been "de-canonized," except for those parts that are GH specific without being "funny." Chainmail is much better in all respects than either the Estes novels or "funny Castle Greyhawk." Why then should it be "de-canonized?"
If Chainmail conflicts with the Dragon Annual Map and the two are mutually exclusive, one can reasonably be chosen over the other. If, as I suggest, Chainmail and the DA map can be harmonized by correctly understanding the limited extent of the Chainmail nations, that is another way to proceed.
To simply discard Chainmail wholesale, however, for no other reason than that we dislike it and would have preferred better, IMO makes "canon" an nonesuch term, with no real meaning. Canon becomes what we say it is -just because. Canon is then a term whose defination is variable depending upon who gets to do the choosing, whose taste rules. The notion of "Greyhawk scholarship" then becomes a complete joke.
Some don't like SKR's Hepmonaland - so its not "canon?" Some dislike From the Ashes - so its not "canon?" Some dislike Chainmail - so its not "canon?" Once that door is opened, there is no easy way to shut it. Personal preference, even when shared, should not determine canon, unless like the Rose Estes novels, there is a more than mere personal preference reason to do so.
I think Chainmail must be considered canon unless it is found in absolute conflict with the DA map.
GV, there is no current official WotC World of Greyhawk canon, only a Living Greyhawk canon. I suppose you can theorize a current WotC canon, but it consists of the thought experiment 'What would be deemed valid if and when the next World of Greyhawk sourcebook comes out?' Which no one knows, though there are likelihoods.
Interesting take on the "canon" question.
I never thought of it quite that way. I guess it is half "thought experiment," as you describe, and half LG/Paizo. Of the likelihood, I think it is all but assured that GH will eventually be revisited; I'd say in 4E in all likelihood.Absolutely!
When you read the descriptions, the Chainmail states are seen to lie in the far Northwest. They do not take up all of western Oerik. The maps are well done but wrong in their details - the extent of the Chainmail nations.
Heh, didn't mean to imply Chainmail took up the whole of Western Oerik. The map I saw took up the space from the big chain of N-S mountains west of the Celestial Imperium and north of the "Tribes of Enallaves", an area a bit bigger than the detailed area of the Flanases (especially when you cut out the area for the seas cutting into it). Even divided seven or eight ways, some of the empires were massive, a side-effect of the map being so undetailed.
Heh, didn't mean to imply Chainmail took up the whole of Western Oerik. The map I saw took up the space from the big chain of N-S mountains west of the Celestial Imperium and north of the "Tribes of Enallaves", an area a bit bigger than the detailed area of the Flanases (especially when you cut out the area for the seas cutting into it). Even divided seven or eight ways, some of the empires were massive, a side-effect of the map being so undetailed.
Not to worry.
There are several "maps" floating around the internet. All wrong. :D See Discussion of this Thread on Canonfire.Not to worry.
Have you seen the official Chainmail map from the ESD?
Halber