I dont like so and so or I dont like some game accessory or someones perspective so it must not be canon is a theme that pops up all the time.
Really, what does it matter in the long run? Will the endless debates over this issue ever solve one thing? Does anyone even care? Sheesh I cant stand 3e or 3.5 but I bet that wont change the fact they are now the default system for our beloveded game and world.
So in the end why do we all worry over a word when for each of us it means something different and each of our campaigns are different. Its an implied kind of silliness isnt it.
Maraudar
Canon is usually (to my knowledge) defined as - material published for, and intended for use in or in connection with, a campaign setting by the holder of the Intellectual Property rights, in a medium that is widely available to consumers.
Individual Campaigns: Canon is irrelevant in individual campaigns, except to the extent the DM or players may deem it relevant.
Discussions Between Fans: Canon is relevant to discussions between fans because it is a “baseline” for discussion, a “lingua franca” or common language, or point of reference common to everyone familiar with the setting as published. So saying, canon is not supremely relevant because, while one may speak in terms of canon, one is not bound to do so nor bound by any expression of canon.
Development of Setting Material By the IP Holder: Canon is relevant to the development of new setting material by the IP holder to the extent that new material is better if it is consistent with prior material to the extent that (1) the prior material has performed well in the marketplace (2) such that consumer expectations would be defeated by a lack of consistency (3) resulting in lessened sales. If prior material has not performed well, ::cough:: ::Greyhawk:: ::cough::, consistency with canon is less important in the development of new material, but remains of some importance such that those customers loyal to the setting do not have their expectations defeated without good reason and will continue to form the base of support for the setting. With good enough reason, however, such expectations may be defeated by material that is inconsistent with canon, but which may garner greater sales.
Development of Setting Material By Fans: See Individual Campaigns above.
The difficulty, IMO, with discussions of canon online comes from two sources.
First, every fan to one degree or another (1) fancies himself or herself a creator of material fit to be canon or (2) at least they fancy themself reasonably knowledgeable about the setting sufficient to speak to it - in both cases, often demonstrating their creativity or knowledge by how much they can refer to or recite “canon.” Taken to an unhealthy extreme, such invocations of canon may trump creativity, ingenuity and enjoyment of setting material. It is this later phenomenon that I greatly dislike.
Second, various persons employed professionally or semi-professionally to create setting material have frequented and continue to frequent and will continue to frequent online discussions of setting material. They influence discussions. This leads to two impacts on the discussion - (1) necessarily, they are approaching the setting material from the IP holder’s standpoint or are at least in such way influenced, whereas the casual or not so casual fan may or may not be approaching it that way; and (2) the natural inclination of some to defer to authority figures casts much discussion in terms of what it is believed the perceived authority figure wants to hear, or just the opposite, or may simply result from a desire not to be embarrassed when an authority figure invokes the authority (either directly by posting or passively/aggressively by posting in response to some posts but studiously ignoring others or indirectly by utilizing a network of informal communications) of their position, which may be expressed in terms of “canon.”
Because “canon” is the definition of a setting to one degree or another and is to one degree or another a common point of reference, it will inevitably be invoked. The rest is an elaboration or exploitation of the definitional and commonality features of canon, influenced at times by who is doing the talking or the listening.
Turning specifically to Greyhawk, the unique aspects of canon discussion may, I believe, be traced to a single demonstrable event. While canon discussions doubtless preceded this “genesis” event, discussions of canon with respect to Greyhawk became “formalized” in a predictable pattern with the publication of Eric Mona’s editorial in Oerth Journal No. 5. Therein, he invoked Roger Moore’s comparison (made on the old AOL Greyhawk folder) of AOL Greyhawk posters to Talmudic scholars, searching for truth or meaning within the opus or “canon” of Greyhawk material. What was fan enthusiasm or obsession became cloaked in a pseudo-intellectualism and pseudo-academica. By itself, the editorial would not likely have influenced any greater discussions but Mr. Mona then went on to the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, Dungeon Magazine, Dragon Magazine and now the portended limited licensing of Greyhawk material, at least to the extent of the publication of Paizo compilation products that have a more than tangential connection to Greyhawk. Mr. Mona, through no fault of his own (as he is entitled to his personal preferences), made a fashion statement in favor of “canon” as the sine qua non of “Greyness” or even of “Greyhawk” by some measure. Now in a position to determine what gets published and by who, there is a consequence to being out of step with Mr. Mona’s tastes or fashions.
To be clear, this is not an “attack” on Erik Mona. I do not believe him to be malicious in any way.
His influence is, however, both unavoidable and undeniable. But as Spiderman is want to note - with great power comes great responsibility. The power is Mr. Mona’s, so too then the responsibility. If I have an argument with him, it is that he acts too much like the canon obsessed fan, tickled to have been compared to a Talmudic scholar, and too little like the agent of the IP holder. See above. But that is my opinion and my prerogative. On a personal level, I like Erik a great deal. 
Canon, then, is inevitably going to be discussed. With respect to Greyhawk, it is the fashion. That is not a bad thing, IMO, so long as canon does not trump creativity, ingenuity and enjoyment of setting material. Canon does not necessarily equal creativity, ingenuity or enjoyable material. At the same time, a complete disregard for canon can be as bad as a slavish devotion to it. If the setting has a future, it is in the middle, IMO. Not strictly canon, but not an abandonment of canon either.
This will doubtless "offend" some for whom "canon" is a code word for - "Don't change anything!!! Greyhawk achieved perfection in 1980/1986etc."
They will be personally "offended" or will be "offended" on behalf of someone else. 
Taking "offense" is part of any canon debate it seems - the last resort of (1) those who can sustain no reasoned argument of their own, (2) those who can offer no other refutation to the position of others or (3) those who simply cannot abide a difference of opinion. 
Eh. Crocodile tears. ;)
Maraudar
Isn't this covered in the FAQ? If it's not, it seems like it should be.
Canon is usually (to my knowledge) defined as - material published for, and intended for use in or in connection with, a campaign setting by the holder of the Intellectual Property rights, in a medium that is widely available to consumers.
Individual Campaigns: Canon is irrelevant in individual campaigns, except to the extent the DM or players may deem it relevant.
Discussions Between Fans: Canon is relevant to discussions between fans because it is a “baseline” for discussion, a “lingua franca” or common language, or point of reference common to everyone familiar with the setting as published. So saying, canon is not supremely relevant because, while one may speak in terms of canon, one is not bound to do so nor bound by any expression of canon.
agreement with this.
Development of Setting Material By the IP Holder: Canon is relevant to the development of new setting material by the IP holder to the extent that new material is better if it is consistent with prior material to the extent that (1) the prior material has performed well in the marketplace (2) such that consumer expectations would be defeated by a lack of consistency (3) resulting in lessened sales.
pretty much agree with this to...
If prior material has not performed well, ::cough:: ::Greyhawk:: ::cough::, consistency with canon is less important in the development of new material, but remains of some importance such that those customers loyal to the setting do not have their expectations defeated without good reason and will continue to form the base of support for the setting. With good enough reason, however, such expectations may be defeated by material that is inconsistent with canon, but which may garner greater sales.
I do not realy agree with this... for a couple of reasons... first the assertion that Greyhawk did not preform well... while the sales may have been lower the Forgotten Realms, there were a lot of reasons beside sales figures that TSR did not support the greyhawk line as well as they could have, and had greyhawk gotten the support in the past that FR, or other campaign settings got, then it WOULD have done pretty well for itself. The very fact that despite a distict lack of real support, even while TSR was producing greyhawk products, Greyhawk still has a bigger following then some campaign settings better supported by TSR at the time (Spelljammer, Darksun, etc.) seems to prove that had it been given the support, advertising, cross media opportunities etc. of FR, DL or Ravenloft it would still be a viable line today.
The second reason I do not agree with this assertion is because it is this line of thinking inevetavbly leads to a clash, retconing, and a jumbled morrase of what is canonical and what isn't... which inturn leads to someting like Crisses on Infinite Earths which devistated DC comics for years afterwards and ended thier dominance of the comic book field, allowing Marvel to take over the #1 spot in the comic book industry... (sorry if my examples may seem to come out of left field, but I talk about subject that I know).
In any setting, whether it be a comic book universe, or a fantasy role playing game campaign contiunity is one of the biggest factors in suspension of disbelief and saleability to your target audience... if you go about rewriting history every other source book you will quickly loose both your hard core fans, and your new readers who will not know what think, and will be afraid to use any new information simply because they think it could be invalidated the next time a book comes out.
GVD seems to have the idea that Greyhawks success, or lack there of in the past was determined by the quality of the products, and that by changing a bunch of stuff to make the products "better" they will benifit from increased saleability... while I will not argue with the fact that some greyhawk products were incredibly bad (Gargoyles, Puppets), I maintain that the main reasons for greyhawks lack of success was not the quality or viability of thier products, but instead lack of support on the part of IP holders.
As such I feel that most of the current canon for the setting is fine, and that altering it is simply asking for uneeded trouble...
GVD seems to have the idea that Greyhawks success, or lack there of in the past was determined by the quality of the products, and that by changing a bunch of stuff to make the products "better" they will benifit from increased saleability... while I will not argue with the fact that some greyhawk products were incredibly bad (Gargoyles, Puppets), I maintain that the main reasons for greyhawks lack of success was not the quality or viability of thier products, but instead lack of support on the part of IP holders.
As such I feel that most of the current canon for the setting is fine, and that altering it is simply asking for uneeded trouble...
Hi CW,
I'm sure a combination of factors were at work.
I think, however, that the two main thrusts of Greyhawk postGygax - the Greyhawk Wars storyline and (what I will call) the "recovery" or "aftermath" storyline of the LGG - were not innately compelling of adoption by gamers and, while not promoted as much as they might have been, would not have garnered a sustainable consumer base in any event. Marketing is not a cure-all, even if lack of marketing can be deadly.
Adherence to the main points of this "canon" is, I believe, advisable for the reasons you point out. I totally agree.
I think in finer detail, there is less of a need. I cannot easily give specifics as I think the degree of adherence to canon is case specific. Sometimes, it is not even a question of adherence but a willingness to break with what has been. This, I can give an example of. If I release a new edition of Greyhawk wherein Iuz is vanished from Oerth because he has ascended to full godhood, some will nearly faint, but I see no reason why this could or should not be - particularly if I simultaneously release an adventure - IUZ ASCENDANT - which lets players play through the ascension.
The point is that Greyhawk, IMO, has to be amenable to change, even significant change, that will provide a setting that will be more innately compelling of adoption by those exposed to it. This does not mean GH becomes FR or GH loses its sense of unique identity. It does mean some change, however.
Not all change equates with a loss of identity. While I think the Greyhawk Wars were poorly handled, I think the basic idea was sound and flowed from canon, such that the "change" was "natural" at least in outline, even if the details beyond the outline proved problematic at times. Rather than now retrench, I would see Greyhawk move forward.
An example:
(1) A war of unification in the former Great Kingdom that sees Aerdi restored - for good or ill.
(2) The Brotherhood's thinly stretched empire collapses and the Brotherhood retrenches on the Tilvot Peninsula becoming a mystical, pariah state with an agenda and an spy network second to none.
(3) Iuz ascends, leaving a power vacume that i) remnants of the Horned Society; ii) Bandit Kinglets; iii) Furyondy; iv) resurgent Shieldlanders; v) emboldened Rovers; and vi) aggressive Nomads all seek to claim.
(4) Celene and its Ulek States allies prosecute The Second Hateful War in the Pomarj and Wild Coast. Keoland must then contend with a rising demi-human power on its border as must Greyhawk.
(5) The Duchy of Ulek goes to war with Rary and expands to claim (even if in name only) the Bright Desert.
(6) Tenh is restored, the Hold taken and the Pale threatened by the return of the Ur-Flan.
(7) Zief makes a nearly successful play for empire - annexing Tusmit, waging a war of attrition in Ekbir and conquering Ket - only to have to quickly regroup as a new threat emerges out of the Far West, threatening the Western Baklunish states and potentially all of the Flanaess.
(7) Slerotin awakes in Valadis and begins raising a slumbering power in the Sea of Dust that threatens a new Suel Imperium.
(8) Then all hell breaks loose as the next edition's McGuffin is revealed in the heart of the City of Greyhawk.
I'm riffing but you get the idea.
IMO, stagnation means death.
To be clear, this is not an “attack” on Erik Mona.
Maybe you should just make that your sig file? ;)
--Erik
Maybe you should just make that your sig file? ;)
--Erik
Hey, Spiderman. ;) Some people don't recognize that with great power comes great responsibility, even inevitability in the case of some discussions of Greyhawk as it is presently, and want to treat you like Aunt May. They have an innate urge to "protect you." :D
Now, if you can just get that mojo working for you with the MJ's of Greyhawk (assuming those aren't mythical
), you'll be set. ;) But I'm guessing from that "superunicorn" label, and we all know about unicorns, that they too may see you as Aunt May. :D Oh-oh. ;) Anyway, Wallcrawler. I've got a newspaper to run. ;)
This will doubtless "offend" some for whom "canon" is a code word for - "Don't change anything!!! Greyhawk achieved perfection in 1980/1986etc."
.. or (4) those who genuinely believe the "old" GH was the only real GH.
No, I am not part of those but dismissing them as people who can't abide a different opinion isn't fair to them either.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Sometimes, though, you just hate/love someone/something at first sight without being able to translate "why" into words. It's a gut feeling. I can respect that. However, if the same person tried to disparage a more recent edition of the setting, then I would certainly expect her to bring arguments to the discussion.
(1) A war of unification in the former Great Kingdom that sees Aerdi restored - for good or ill.
Agreed.
(2) The Brotherhood's thinly stretched empire collapses and the Brotherhood retrenches on the Tilvot Peninsula becoming a mystical, pariah state with an agenda and an spy network second to none.
Agreed with qualifications. The Hold and Onnwal are all but lost. The Lords have too much to gain from the monopoly on the spice trade to anger the Brothers too much. That said - if their ties to the SB made them unwelcome in even those few ports that they can trade in currently, then things might happen if the SB can't keep the Lords in the style to which they're accustomed.
The only powers that can really challenge their naval dominance is (an resurgent Imperial?) Keoland (with help from P. of Ulek) and Ahlissa (once it gets its fleets in Prymp and Naerie and eventually Pontylver built).
That said, the SB must foresee that they can't hold the Azure as they have since 585. They'd be stupid not to have a contingency plan.
(3) Iuz ascends, leaving a power vacume that i) remnants of the Horned Society; ii) Bandit Kinglets; iii) Furyondy; iv) resurgent Shieldlanders; v) emboldened Rovers; and vi) aggressive Nomads all seek to claim.
Or at least Goes Away for a while. It's discovered that Iuz hasn't been running the show for the last several years and has gone Elsewhere.
Throw Iggwilv and various personages of the Boneheart into the mix. Also - lots of intriguing in Furyondy when Belvor dies without issue. The kingdom is poised on the edge of civil strife - whn miracle of miracles, the long lost Thrommel returns - but why is he never seen in daylight? Faced with the choice of a vampire king or a devastating civil war and chaos on the northern borders - what would you do.
(4) Celene and its Ulek States allies prosecute The Second Hateful War in the Pomarj and Wild Coast. Keoland must then contend with a rising demi-human power on its border as must Greyhawk.
Add a edge of the olve having had enough of things. Ties with Lendor and a sense that if the Olve don't act, then they're doomed. Of course this means acting in the same way they acted against the gogglers - total war and woe bedide any who dare to stand against them.
(5) The Duchy of Ulek goes to war with Rary and expands to claim (even if in name only) the Bright Desert.
Urnst.
Of course Rary must have some plans up his sleeves. I won't say what my thoughts are, but keep an eye on the LG Blight on Bright Sands Core series for further developments.
(6) Tenh is restored, the Hold taken and the Pale threatened by the return of the Ur-Flan.
The Tenhas will eventually repel the Palish in their land grabbing efforts alright. The Hold could face a Colten rebellion, encouraged by the Cruski and the Rovers. Perhaps there might be a move towards some sort of solidarity between the Coltens, Tenhas and Rovers - a rekindling of ancient bonds of kinship. The Tenhas cast off their pride and rediscover parts of their heritage. etc.
The Hold itself could fall into bloody chaos if Sevvord Redbeard were to die...
Palish and Ur-Flan - possibly.
(7) Zief makes a nearly successful play for empire - annexing Tusmit, waging a war of attrition in Ekbir and conquering Ket - only to have to quickly regroup as a new threat emerges out of the Far West, threatening the Western Baklunish states and potentially all of the Flanaess.
Don't forget the Mahdi of the Steppes. Perhaps he unites the Paynims against the warring northern states?
The Tiger Nomads go to war against the Wolf Nomads at Iuz (or perhaps Iggwilv's behest). Perhaps they even strike south into Perrenland once more?
(7) Slerotin awakes in Valadis and begins raising a slumbering power in the Sea of Dust that threatens a new Suel Imperium.
I'd let sleeping/dead Mages of Power lie. But it might be interesting to know whatever happened to Zellif Ad-Zol. Perhaps he went on a quest to free Vatun? What might happen if he or a decendant of his born on the planes or in Rhiza/Fireland did?
Even without this, SB control over Ratik and the Frunzii could lead to a an alliance that could dominate Rhizia and threaten the southern lands.
(8) Then all hell breaks loose as the next edition's McGuffin is revealed in the heart of the City of Greyhawk.
Oh, but of course. The Elder Elemental God of Marketing demands it
P.
(1) A war of unification in the former Great Kingdom that sees Aerdi restored - for good or ill.
(2) The Brotherhood's thinly stretched empire collapses and the Brotherhood retrenches on the Tilvot Peninsula becoming a mystical, pariah state with an agenda and an spy network second to none.
(3) Iuz ascends, leaving a power vacume that i) remnants of the Horned Society; ii) Bandit Kinglets; iii) Furyondy; iv) resurgent Shieldlanders; v) emboldened Rovers; and vi) aggressive Nomads all seek to claim.
(4) Celene and its Ulek States allies prosecute The Second Hateful War in the Pomarj and Wild Coast. Keoland must then contend with a rising demi-human power on its border as must Greyhawk.
(5) The Duchy of Ulek goes to war with Rary and expands to claim (even if in name only) the Bright Desert.
(6) Tenh is restored, the Hold taken and the Pale threatened by the return of the Ur-Flan.
(7) Zief makes a nearly successful play for empire - annexing Tusmit, waging a war of attrition in Ekbir and conquering Ket - only to have to quickly regroup as a new threat emerges out of the Far West, threatening the Western Baklunish states and potentially all of the Flanaess.
(7) Slerotin awakes in Valadis and begins raising a slumbering power in the Sea of Dust that threatens a new Suel Imperium.
(8) Then all hell breaks loose as the next edition's McGuffin is revealed in the heart of the City of Greyhawk.
uhmm... none of these actually violate canon, they build on existing canon, mostly in interesting ways... in order to violate canon, for good or ill, you have to change what has already been printed about it... future changes do not violate canon, but contribute to the growing body of canon... and would all be viable ideas of a future suplement or suplements, if and when they ever come out.
Honestly I think the reason that Erik is hesitant to make changes as drastic as the ones above in anything that he publishes in Dragon or Dungeon is simply because he thinks that it will quickly be Vetoed by WotC, who still have the final say over all greyhawk content, and have been expressing some concern over the amount of GH content he is putting in the magazines already, even when none of the stuff printed is realy all that radical.
An example:
(1) A war of unification in the former Great Kingdom that sees Aerdi restored - for good or ill.
Agreed but how, Ahlissa is slowly getting its house in order and making gains with its "kinder, gentler approach" but little is heard from the Northern Kingdom, ItU gives a picture of a kingdom rife with conflict, splits among nobles, regional powerblocks forming, humanoid threats.
If Ahlissa secretly funded dissent and offered border nobles economic opportunities, It could easily cause popular revolts ala the fall of communism as the nobles and commoners, see the increased prosperity enjoyed within Ahlissa and Grenell increasing iron fisted efforts too control dissent.
The unification could even be peaceful or Ahlissa intervenes to "liberate" their oppressed bethren.
(2) The Brotherhood's thinly stretched empire collapses and the Brotherhood retrenches on the Tilvot Peninsula becoming a mystical, pariah state with an agenda and an spy network second to none.
The SB accessory provides the SB back up plan, abandon Hold and Onnwall, except Scant, Pomarj orc mercenaries plunder the interior as a diversion so an assault on scant isn't a priority, Lordship of the Isles are given more independence publicly although privately relations are very good so the Lords can maintain foriegn trade and SB efforts are intensified within Hepmonaland, Amedio Jungle and spy networks.
Seems well reasoned to me.
(3) Iuz ascends, leaving a power vacume that i) remnants of the Horned Society; ii) Bandit Kinglets; iii) Furyondy; iv) resurgent Shieldlanders; v) emboldened Rovers; and vi) aggressive Nomads all seek to claim.
Personally I like Iuz, why not have him simply recall his troops from the Bandit lands, Barrens and Tenh, to return once Furyondy is conquered, ofcourse.
Tenh was a means too an end, divert attention, his true goals always were Furyondy and Vesve with Horned Lands as another border to attack.
The Shield Lands, Bandit Lands, Barrens and Tenh were bonuses and given the scarity of resources and distance the only one worth holding is the Shield Lands (Farmland).
(4) Celene and its Ulek States allies prosecute The Second Hateful War in the Pomarj and Wild Coast. Keoland must then contend with a rising demi-human power on its border as must Greyhawk.
I always felt the demi-humans where made too "cute and cuddly", I also would love too see the demi-human, nations and individuals, protrayed as more aggressive demanding respect (demi-human civil rights movement) rather than as an "appendage" of the human nations.
(5) The Duchy of Ulek goes to war with Rary and expands to claim (even if in name only) the Bright Desert.
Rary is definitely up too something, but why always war, low grade spying and freelance agents aka PCs give the development a real film noir spy feel for those players that like espionage.
(6) Tenh is restored, the Hold taken and the Pale threatened by the return of the Ur-Flan.
Love the Ur-Flan, read GVD excellent canonfire article, throws quite a monkey wrench into the divine social order and its about time the Flan got up off their knees and staked a claim to some pride again.
(7) Zief makes a nearly successful play for empire - annexing Tusmit, waging a war of attrition in Ekbir and conquering Ket - only to have to quickly regroup as a new threat emerges out of the Far West, threatening the Western Baklunish states and potentially all of the Flanaess.
Have too throw my support behind the Mahdi of the Steppes rather then another foreign horde unless it means another Gazatteer detailing the 'Far Western" nations.
(7) Slerotin awakes in Valadis and begins raising a slumbering power in the Sea of Dust that threatens a new Suel Imperium.
Not another ancient evil, done to death, perhaps an exploration of the Underdark perhaps like Nell is doing could explore the ruins of the old Suel Imperium rather then another doomsday scenario.
Just my thoughts, greyhawk market value, 2 coppers.
I was giving "for-instances." Just riffing. I'm not sure I'm ready to cut an album.
I appreciate the thoughtful responses, however. :D
If someone died and made me "Design-King for a Day," I would probably not go with the list I ticked off, although I'd probably use some of those ideas.
My personal theory for a GH relaunch is this:
(1) The "coverage area" for the relaunch would include the Flanaess plus an area at least equal in size to the Flanaess that has not been described before (Maybe part of Hyperborea to the north, Fireland to the East, the Tyurzi Mountains and outer dependencies of the Celestial Imperium to the West and part of the Pearl Sea islands to the south? Just riffing here. ;) )
(2) The "changes" to the Flanaess would most definately be there and visible be there but the changes overall would not be all encompassing but rather more moderate, so that the setting was clearly "recognizable" as Greyhawk - change with continuity;
(3) Obviously the all new material would be, well, all new!
(4) There would be strands of linkage between the new areas and the Flanaess. Not solid links but linkages like strands of a web, letting DMs decide how strong to make any individual strand in their game. Thus, the new areas would be gradually brought into Greyhawk, not rammed down anybodies throat;
(5) Subsequent development would evolve this basic concept - change with continuity, linkages not links.
But nobody listens to me.
Glenn ;)