Valthonis and Taladas - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Valthonis and Taladas

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Mar 22, 2005 0:59:16 I've been reading a few discussions on various boards about the people on Ansalon either not knowing about other lands (eg. Taladas) or else presuming them to be a myth. Wasn't Astinus supposed to be ignorant of Taladas? Basically there was no mortal who knows the map of all of Krynn with one new exception: Valthonis. Being a former god he would presumably know what other lands are like, probably having visited most of them as an avatar at some point in time, assuming he's managed to keep most of his memories. I don't remember the exact statement of what Valthonis is up to but I think it was something like just wandering and occasionally lending a hand to good causes in a small way. Perhaps his trips could lead him to other lands, accompanied by his retinue of loyal followers. They could then pass on the knowledge, leading to at least an acceptance of other lands, if not some expeditions. Thoughts?
The most knowledge any previous mortals may have had was some of the minotaurs mentioned in The Minotaurs who came from Taladas and decided not to stay, presumably going on to find another place to settle. Assuming they survived they'd probably know the most geography of anyone, except possibly the gnomes who originally chased the greygem (but who knows what kind of contraption could have destroyed their maps in some failed experiment).
Also, wasn't there some passage in Dragons of a Winter Night about Tarsis having been a place for mages to have bought spell components from distant lands? Could this be interpreted as other continents or merely islands within reach of Ansalon?
#2
darthsylver
Mar 22, 2005 6:38:12 Now I may be wrong, but it seems that you are assuming he took form on Ansalon (which is not a bad assumption given DL past ignorance of Other lands), and I do not remember if War of Souls states that he indeed appeared on Ansalon. But just imagine if he actually appeared on Taladas or one of the other lands. I mean Ansalon actually took part in the War of Souls and to our knowledge Taladas was not involved. So word would get around on Ansalon that Paladine was not human and everyone who ever wanted a piece of him, for good or ill, would be looking for him. If he is actually on Taladas then he avoid most of these "hunters" fairly easy.
#3
zombiegleemax
Mar 22, 2005 6:53:06 This thread got me thinking. Wouldn't there have been clerics of Paladine on Taladas before the world was stolen? Wouldn't they notice something fishy when all of the other gods came back and they still didn't have their powers?

Would the clerics of Mishakal tell them what happened? Would they come up with their own stories about why Paladine is absent?
#4
zombiegleemax
Mar 22, 2005 8:52:48 As much as I love DL the whole Ansalon centric view of DL writing is it's greatest flaw. Inconsistentsies can be explained away as errors in retelling and embellishing of tales verbally handed down, but the fact that everything seems to happen on Ansalon is a liitle disturbing. What happens with the gods and the major events on Ansalon and how it affects the rest of Krynn is almost an afterthought with people scambling for answers. That's the one advantage that FR (a setting I have truly grown to dislike) has, it's so large and many pantheons that a nation or god could be wiped out and it wouldn't really effect anywhere else. I've tried running a game on Ansalon but with the setting changing after every novel I gave up and switched to an unknown land. This way I don't have to put up with what happens on Ansalon.
#5
iltharanos
Mar 22, 2005 10:37:09
Basically there was no mortal who knows the map of all of Krynn with one new exception: Valthonis.

There was a short story in one of the Fifth Age anthologies that ended with a kender having a fully detailed map of the entire world of Krynn, whose details we weren't given (of course).

This thread got me thinking. Wouldn't there have been clerics of Paladine on Taladas before the world was stolen? Wouldn't they notice something fishy when all of the other gods came back and they still didn't have their powers?

Would the clerics of Mishakal tell them what happened? Would they come up with their own stories about why Paladine is absent?

Paladine was never worshipped in Taladas, so his fall from godhood would have gone mostly unnoticed there.
#6
zombiegleemax
Mar 22, 2005 13:28:22 Valthonis walked into the temple in Sanction in Dragons of a Vanished Moon so I'm fairly sure he started on Ansalon.

iltharanos: do you remember which anthology that was in?

The reason I brought this thread up was it gave me an idea for a game to run where Ansalon characters could have someone who could tell them where other lands are. I have been tempted many times to run campaigns on Taladas or Chorane for a change of pace and as a DM it'd be fun to have the characters in a setting where what they though was normal wasn't, ie. on Adlatum (a fan made new continent) they could run into minotaurs who were really monks etc.
#7
true_blue
Mar 22, 2005 14:05:25 Personally I never saw a point in playing in a Campaign Setting, but in a "distant unknown land". Not trying to diss anyone's campaign, I just dont see the use. You could transfer the races to that land, and still retain some of the flavor. Draconians, medium minotaurs, gnome tinkers, kender etc... but I find half(if not more) of the culture comes from the organizations. Things like the WoHS, Knights of Solamnia, etc. If you lose out on that, its not much Dragonlance.. at least in my personal opinion.

I can understand someone liking the Taladas culture, etc..and wanting to play in it. Thats cool. But basically if you just make up a whole new land and culture, might as well make a homebrew world. Its pretty much the same thing. Its not very similar to Dragonlance when you get down to it.

I do agree that Ansalon is having way too many things occur. Time needs to slow down and the people need to find some kind of stability. So I can understand the aversion to not want to play along the same lines as the novels and worry about conflict. Basically I've given up on novels. I try to incorporate major things as best as I can into my campaign, but I've started to grow a big dislike for how things are written in the novels and the things that happen, so its becoming easier and easier to ignore them. I do this because some of the things I see I actually don't agree are "Dragonlance-y" and actually take away from the setting.

I've always found it *very* weird that the "laws" that were put in place by gods, organizations, etc... never ever had to extend to other parts of the world. I find it as a big inconsistancy that basically can't be fixed. While SP or someone else could come up with reasons why certain things don't affect Taladas, I think they would ring false and just not make much sense. But again, thats my opinion and others may not ever have a problem with it. And if they did change Taladas in order to conform to certain "rules", hardcore fans of Taladas would make an outcry against it(which is totally understandable).

Again, none of the opinions were to knock on someone's world.
#8
ferratus
Mar 23, 2005 15:54:52 Well there are many reasons to play in Taladas rather than Ansalon.

1) Less novels blowing the place up.

2) It is true that you lose the flavour of the organizations (namely the WoHS, KoS, KoT, LoS, etc). However, it also an opportunity to apply "dragonlance themes" to an entirely new creation.

For example, in Taladas there is no WoHS. However, there must be a tradition of wizardry that is controlled. I thus assumed that there was a conception of "relational" order of High Sorcery, in which a master was responsible if his student went rogue. If the master was dead, a fellow pupil had the job. If there was no other pupil, the master's fellow pupil or friend had the responsibility for taking the renegade out.

3) You also lose the flavour of nations. However, you can also create new nations with those dragonlance themes. For example, the Taladas minotaur empire (which is much cooler than Richard A. Knaak's Silvanesti empire IMO). Taladas some amazing cultures such as the Glass Sailors, Thenol, etc.

4) You can experiment with rules and alternate views much more freely. It has been suggested for example that Taladas might be an excellent place for mysticism and sorcery to be the default rather than the option (along with Thinker Gnomes and Afflicted Kender). The religious ideas are sort of fun, with ways of worshipping the gods which are more syncretistic and less formal than the congregationalist "Holy Orders of the Stars". Mystery cults, Monotheism based on the High God (though no clerics) and seeing cults dedicated to dieties which are a mix of "Zeboim-Takhisis" (the Shark Men) or Hiddukel-Chemosh (Hiteh).

Frankly, with the 5th Age and the War of Souls, Taladas is increasingly fitting with Ansalon. If we ever do an Atlas, I hope Taladas and Ansalon finally contact each other. I want the option of going to Taladas as a gamer.
#9
ivid
Mar 25, 2005 2:37:32 As to the original idea, it would be a nice experiment to see what happened if Valthonis would have been reborn in Taladas:
Surely the technocratic elves from Armach would have imprisoned him, former god or no, because he intereferred with their plans... Surely, he would have had that kind of *great inquisitor* conversation with the voice...

I think Paladine would have been more happy on the Rainward Isles, far away from the intrigues of the people; also I think the concept of the multicultural society there favours him more than anything else found on Krynn after the return of the gods...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to the discussion *Is Taladas worth looking for?*, definitely yes.

Although I found the traditional approach via the modules very weak, the setting, especially after the revision by Mr O'Rance, offers countless of intriguing adventures with a DL flavour, but far from the unstable and far-too-well known campaign settings from Ansalon.

If you always liked the more exotic cultures of DL, like the gnomes, the Irda, the mer-elves, then Taladas and its environs are axactly what you've been looking for.
Now, T has only few parts that are *mainstream high fantasy* (and those were unfortunately presented in the modules) and so involves A LOT of mapping, creating and inventing work.
With Old Aurim, the Gnome Empire, the Hithekel and the Black Forests, you've marvellous gaming opportunities.
Also, Savanaech, the great dragon is major villain of endless possibilities...

I've been running my current T campaign for over a year now, and although my players can be best described as CE (the players, not their characters!), this campaign seems to be my best venture in RPG until now.

In short, if you haven't already, give it a try now!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Mar 22, 2005 0:59:16	I've been reading a few discussions on various boards about the people on Ansalon either not knowing about other lands (eg. Taladas) or else presuming them to be a myth. Wasn't Astinus supposed to be ignorant of Taladas? Basically there was no mortal who knows the map of all of Krynn with one new exception: Valthonis. Being a former god he would presumably know what other lands are like, probably having visited most of them as an avatar at some point in time, assuming he's managed to keep most of his memories. I don't remember the exact statement of what Valthonis is up to but I think it was something like just wandering and occasionally lending a hand to good causes in a small way. Perhaps his trips could lead him to other lands, accompanied by his retinue of loyal followers. They could then pass on the knowledge, leading to at least an acceptance of other lands, if not some expeditions. Thoughts? The most knowledge any previous mortals may have had was some of the minotaurs mentioned in The Minotaurs who came from Taladas and decided not to stay, presumably going on to find another place to settle. Assuming they survived they'd probably know the most geography of anyone, except possibly the gnomes who originally chased the greygem (but who knows what kind of contraption could have destroyed their maps in some failed experiment). Also, wasn't there some passage in Dragons of a Winter Night about Tarsis having been a place for mages to have bought spell components from distant lands? Could this be interpreted as other continents or merely islands within reach of Ansalon?
#2 darthsylver Mar 22, 2005 6:38:12	Now I may be wrong, but it seems that you are assuming he took form on Ansalon (which is not a bad assumption given DL past ignorance of Other lands), and I do not remember if War of Souls states that he indeed appeared on Ansalon. But just imagine if he actually appeared on Taladas or one of the other lands. I mean Ansalon actually took part in the War of Souls and to our knowledge Taladas was not involved. So word would get around on Ansalon that Paladine was not human and everyone who ever wanted a piece of him, for good or ill, would be looking for him. If he is actually on Taladas then he avoid most of these "hunters" fairly easy.
#3 zombiegleemax Mar 22, 2005 6:53:06	This thread got me thinking. Wouldn't there have been clerics of Paladine on Taladas before the world was stolen? Wouldn't they notice something fishy when all of the other gods came back and they still didn't have their powers? Would the clerics of Mishakal tell them what happened? Would they come up with their own stories about why Paladine is absent?
#4 zombiegleemax Mar 22, 2005 8:52:48	As much as I love DL the whole Ansalon centric view of DL writing is it's greatest flaw. Inconsistentsies can be explained away as errors in retelling and embellishing of tales verbally handed down, but the fact that everything seems to happen on Ansalon is a liitle disturbing. What happens with the gods and the major events on Ansalon and how it affects the rest of Krynn is almost an afterthought with people scambling for answers. That's the one advantage that FR (a setting I have truly grown to dislike) has, it's so large and many pantheons that a nation or god could be wiped out and it wouldn't really effect anywhere else. I've tried running a game on Ansalon but with the setting changing after every novel I gave up and switched to an unknown land. This way I don't have to put up with what happens on Ansalon.
#5 iltharanos Mar 22, 2005 10:37:09	Basically there was no mortal who knows the map of all of Krynn with one new exception: Valthonis. There was a short story in one of the Fifth Age anthologies that ended with a kender having a fully detailed map of the entire world of Krynn, whose details we weren't given (of course). This thread got me thinking. Wouldn't there have been clerics of Paladine on Taladas before the world was stolen? Wouldn't they notice something fishy when all of the other gods came back and they still didn't have their powers? Would the clerics of Mishakal tell them what happened? Would they come up with their own stories about why Paladine is absent? Paladine was never worshipped in Taladas, so his fall from godhood would have gone mostly unnoticed there.
#6 zombiegleemax Mar 22, 2005 13:28:22	Valthonis walked into the temple in Sanction in Dragons of a Vanished Moon so I'm fairly sure he started on Ansalon. iltharanos: do you remember which anthology that was in? The reason I brought this thread up was it gave me an idea for a game to run where Ansalon characters could have someone who could tell them where other lands are. I have been tempted many times to run campaigns on Taladas or Chorane for a change of pace and as a DM it'd be fun to have the characters in a setting where what they though was normal wasn't, ie. on Adlatum (a fan made new continent) they could run into minotaurs who were really monks etc.
#7 true_blue Mar 22, 2005 14:05:25	Personally I never saw a point in playing in a Campaign Setting, but in a "distant unknown land". Not trying to diss anyone's campaign, I just dont see the use. You could transfer the races to that land, and still retain some of the flavor. Draconians, medium minotaurs, gnome tinkers, kender etc... but I find half(if not more) of the culture comes from the organizations. Things like the WoHS, Knights of Solamnia, etc. If you lose out on that, its not much Dragonlance.. at least in my personal opinion. I can understand someone liking the Taladas culture, etc..and wanting to play in it. Thats cool. But basically if you just make up a whole new land and culture, might as well make a homebrew world. Its pretty much the same thing. Its not very similar to Dragonlance when you get down to it. I do agree that Ansalon is having way too many things occur. Time needs to slow down and the people need to find some kind of stability. So I can understand the aversion to not want to play along the same lines as the novels and worry about conflict. Basically I've given up on novels. I try to incorporate major things as best as I can into my campaign, but I've started to grow a big dislike for how things are written in the novels and the things that happen, so its becoming easier and easier to ignore them. I do this because some of the things I see I actually don't agree are "Dragonlance-y" and actually take away from the setting. I've always found it very weird that the "laws" that were put in place by gods, organizations, etc... never ever had to extend to other parts of the world. I find it as a big inconsistancy that basically can't be fixed. While SP or someone else could come up with reasons why certain things don't affect Taladas, I think they would ring false and just not make much sense. But again, thats my opinion and others may not ever have a problem with it. And if they did change Taladas in order to conform to certain "rules", hardcore fans of Taladas would make an outcry against it(which is totally understandable). Again, none of the opinions were to knock on someone's world.
#8 ferratus Mar 23, 2005 15:54:52	Well there are many reasons to play in Taladas rather than Ansalon. 1) Less novels blowing the place up. 2) It is true that you lose the flavour of the organizations (namely the WoHS, KoS, KoT, LoS, etc). However, it also an opportunity to apply "dragonlance themes" to an entirely new creation. For example, in Taladas there is no WoHS. However, there must be a tradition of wizardry that is controlled. I thus assumed that there was a conception of "relational" order of High Sorcery, in which a master was responsible if his student went rogue. If the master was dead, a fellow pupil had the job. If there was no other pupil, the master's fellow pupil or friend had the responsibility for taking the renegade out. 3) You also lose the flavour of nations. However, you can also create new nations with those dragonlance themes. For example, the Taladas minotaur empire (which is much cooler than Richard A. Knaak's Silvanesti empire IMO). Taladas some amazing cultures such as the Glass Sailors, Thenol, etc. 4) You can experiment with rules and alternate views much more freely. It has been suggested for example that Taladas might be an excellent place for mysticism and sorcery to be the default rather than the option (along with Thinker Gnomes and Afflicted Kender). The religious ideas are sort of fun, with ways of worshipping the gods which are more syncretistic and less formal than the congregationalist "Holy Orders of the Stars". Mystery cults, Monotheism based on the High God (though no clerics) and seeing cults dedicated to dieties which are a mix of "Zeboim-Takhisis" (the Shark Men) or Hiddukel-Chemosh (Hiteh). Frankly, with the 5th Age and the War of Souls, Taladas is increasingly fitting with Ansalon. If we ever do an Atlas, I hope Taladas and Ansalon finally contact each other. I want the option of going to Taladas as a gamer.
#9 ivid Mar 25, 2005 2:37:32	As to the original idea, it would be a nice experiment to see what happened if Valthonis would have been reborn in Taladas: Surely the technocratic elves from Armach would have imprisoned him, former god or no, because he intereferred with their plans... Surely, he would have had that kind of great inquisitor conversation with the voice... I think Paladine would have been more happy on the Rainward Isles, far away from the intrigues of the people; also I think the concept of the multicultural society there favours him more than anything else found on Krynn after the return of the gods... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- As to the discussion Is Taladas worth looking for?, definitely yes. Although I found the traditional approach via the modules very weak, the setting, especially after the revision by Mr O'Rance, offers countless of intriguing adventures with a DL flavour, but far from the unstable and far-too-well known campaign settings from Ansalon. If you always liked the more exotic cultures of DL, like the gnomes, the Irda, the mer-elves, then Taladas and its environs are axactly what you've been looking for. Now, T has only few parts that are mainstream high fantasy (and those were unfortunately presented in the modules) and so involves A LOT of mapping, creating and inventing work. With Old Aurim, the Gnome Empire, the Hithekel and the Black Forests, you've marvellous gaming opportunities. Also, Savanaech, the great dragon is major villain of endless possibilities... I've been running my current T campaign for over a year now, and although my players can be best described as CE (the players, not their characters!), this campaign seems to be my best venture in RPG until now. In short, if you haven't already, give it a try now!