Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 spellweaver Mar 22, 2005 17:25:52	Just had a thought: Which major Known World rivers freeze over in the winter? If they can be crossed on foot it makes a lot of difference to e.g. military campaigns. We know that the river south of Glantri City freeze over in winter, so they raise the walls in that season. But what about other rivers? :-) Jesper
#2 zombiegleemax Mar 23, 2005 9:14:59	I would hazard a guess and say the rivers in Ethengar would freeze. I think any fairly wide,deep, slow moving rivers are more apt to freeze over. This would be the case in Ethengar. I have to wonder whether this would extend back into Pockhome, the rivers there would be smaller and faster although the altitude would make it alot colder. I would even say the lakes might freeze over at that heighth. Wendars rivers probably freeze (unless counteracted by the elves) and anything north of Wendar is definately going to have to deal with frozen rivers.
#3 zombiegleemax Mar 23, 2005 9:21:53	I was also thinking about Ethengar (tough life for them...), and also of the rivers of Vestland, Ostland and Soderfjord. It would be interesting if the rivers of the Broken Lands froze... I would guess that Alfheim's river would NOT freeze - due to the magic - but there is a chance that those of Northern Darokin would. I believe that the rivers of the Southern kingdoms won't freeze: Southern Darokin, The Shires, Karameikos and Thyatis. Just guessing, though.
#4 zombiegleemax Mar 23, 2005 12:30:21	I was thinking northern Darokin as well. Corunglain kept popping into my head but I wasn't sure about it. I also wondered about the Northern Reaches. My only problem with that is I am not sure if the fjords would freeze over. Being as how they are deep valleys wouldn't the wind blow above them and keep the little valleys sheltered from the more violent weather? And is there any backflow from the sea? A high salinity would help prevent freezing. I really don't know but if any of our friends from Scandinavia or Iceland would like to chime in here....
#5 Hugin Mar 23, 2005 17:44:49	Don't forget that many rivers do not freeze through completely. They may freeze over on the surface, but they otherwise are still flowing underneath. All it takes with a slow-moving river is a cold snap with little or no wind and it could freeze over in days. Crossing frozen rivers is a very dangerous thing; ice thickness can vary greatly! For example, a river in Rockhome could have thick ice, thin ice, and open water, all in just a length of a hundred feet of the river. I'm interested in hearing about fjords as well. The PCs IMC spent the winter in Vestland and I had the Fjord freeze over. I lived in Newfoundland through the 90's and our "arm" (a long, narrow bay) often froze to a thickness of 3 feet. However, the arm was only 15' to 25' deep, but even the ocean freezes over to various thicknesses.
#6 dave_l Mar 23, 2005 18:25:02	Frozen rivers would be fine for small skirmishes, but no military commander would want his supply lines dependant on a frozen river. A sharp thaw or a few fireballs, and his troops could be stranded. In the real world, campaigns very rarely occurred in winter because of the tremendous obstacles - although magic could probably overcome some of those. I would see a frozen river as more useful for small hit and run raids (involving a group of mercenary adventurers, perhaps) rather than a full-fledged invasion.
#7 kheldren Mar 24, 2005 2:30:55	For the freezing of the sea around the Northern Reaches I'd say no for a couple of reaons... 1) They are nothing like as far north as Scandanavia is, OK there does not seem to be the warm current that keeps Norway ice-free all year, but we are talking open ocean unlike the Baltic. Norwold is the country that gets frozen sea in a big way. 2) The Northern Reaches are modelled on the Vikings. When the Viking were the terror of western Europe (and beyond) Europe was undergoing a "climatic optimum" - i.e. it was a lot warmer than it is now, global climatic change not withstanding. The upshot of this was that northern Europe was a lot more fertile, and Scandanavia was fertile enough that they were not subsistence farming and could afford to go viking. Greenland was named at this time for two reasons, one was advertising, but it's coast (eastern I think) was green and fertile! As such the temperature patterns in modern Scandanavia are too cold to base viking countries on... I'd give all of the known world ice-free coasts, but have it start building up as you travel up the coast of Norwold until you reach the permanently ice-bound lands ruled by frost giants in the north of Norwold.
#8 zombiegleemax Mar 24, 2005 7:48:07	Actually the biggest reasons they went A-viking is because of an overpopulated homeland. It is true that the climate was better back then but the Vikings were rapidly outgrowing what the farmlands would provide for. There are other reasons as well, but now is not the time for a history lesson. IIRC somewhere in the almanacs it lists the date for the start of shipping season in Thyatis. I always wondered about this because I always felt Thyatis was too far south to worry about ice and cold weather. Would they really have to stop shipping just because alot of more northerly climates might be frozen? Sure shipping to Norwold and points north would not take place but would all trade really come to a stop?
#9 spellweaver Mar 24, 2005 8:13:36	Frozen rivers would be fine for small skirmishes, but no military commander would want his supply lines dependant on a frozen river. A sharp thaw or a few fireballs, and his troops could be stranded. In the real world, campaigns very rarely occurred in winter because of the tremendous obstacles - although magic could probably overcome some of those. I would see a frozen river as more useful for small hit and run raids (involving a group of mercenary adventurers, perhaps) rather than a full-fledged invasion. Actually, in the 16th or 17th century the winter was so hard that when the Swedish king invaded Denmark in one of our many wars, he landed in Jutland, marched south, crossed Fynen and then marched his entire army 20 km across the frozen ocean (something like several tens of thousands of men, horses and canons) to invade Zealand and besiege Copenhagen. Just a bit of useless history :D IIRC somewhere in the almanacs it lists the date for the start of shipping season in Thyatis. I always wondered about this because I always felt Thyatis was too far south to worry about ice and cold weather. Would they really have to stop shipping just because alot of more northerly climates might be frozen? Sure shipping to Norwold and points north would not take place but would all trade really come to a stop? Wouldn't the end of/start of shipping season dates have more to do with dangerous seasonal storms than with ice? IIRC, Ierendi also has two such dates and they have a near-tropical climate! :-) Jesper
#10 zombiegleemax Mar 24, 2005 13:15:41	Yes it is more to do with seasonal storms I agree. But given the fantasy setting and the tempestuous nature of the Sea of Dread wouldn't that be anytime your on the water? I tried to relate this to the Carribean but the tropical storms are more frequent in spring and summer than winter. Does anyone know of a tropical/sub-tropical place that has seasonal storms in winter? I don't know, it just seems like somethings missing here as to why there is a shipping season in a subtropical nation.
#11 Hugin Mar 28, 2005 19:00:12	I got curious about the extants of winter sea-ice on Earth (so it could be compared to mystara) and found this picture on the internet. Not much ice coverage as far as open ocean goes, but the more sheltered coastal areas could still be covered.