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Higher Magic on the Planes

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
tebryn14
Mar 24, 2005 1:10:05 How did higher magic (ie. True Dweomers and Elven High Magic) function on the Planes?

As of now, IMC, I believe that because such magic requires a very pure Weave to cast (not aligned or one sided as the Planar "weave" is), True Dweomers require special feats to be able to cast, and entail a great deal of penalties, as per Secrets of the Magister (FR), as opposed to being a normal part of a wizards spell progression (ie., at 20th level they start being able to cast 10th level spells, etc), and High Magic cannot be cast at all, exept in specially attuned areas like the Seelie Court and Arvandor.

However, at least on the topic of True Dweomers, I'm not so much sure that makes sense. The Imaskari were believed to have garnered some of their ability from fiends, and how would those fiends react if their mortal "proteges" could cast such magic much more simply than they". I do, however, believe that true gods (not quasi-deities) should be able to cast such spells (if they have enough levels, and I do believe in deity stats, BTW) as normal spell progression.

Any thoughts?
#2
ripvanwormer
Mar 24, 2005 2:31:54 They work fine, but not in the first nine circles of the Outlands. The Weave is unimportant, except in the Forgotten Realms. For everyone else it's a clueless Prime idea.

Elven High Magic I don't know about. It makes sense that it might be restricted to elven realms.
#3
tebryn14
Mar 24, 2005 10:05:58
They work fine, but not in the first nine circles of the Outlands. The Weave is unimportant, except in the Forgotten Realms. For everyone else it's a clueless Prime idea.

Elven High Magic I don't know about. It makes sense that it might be restricted to elven realms.

The Weave as Torillians think of it may not exist on the Planes, but their is still as fundamental source of magic, and its aligned one way or another. On the inner planes, its an elemental alignment, and on the outer planes, its, well, alignment.

I'm sure they'll function, but I'd think that if they worked as easily as they did on Toril before Karsus's screwup, we'd have heard something in some Planescape source mentioning higher than 9th level spells. Incidently, wasn't the Last Word an 11th level spell (except for that whole thing where is killed any mortal who tried to cast it (or read it), which really would make it exceed that power level exponetially?).

My point is, there's an issue is spellcasters on the Planes are more powerful than those on the Prime, for balance issues (I hate balance, but is a legitimate point here). If you say that 10th+ level spells work as normal, than you have to add them to the spell progression of all wizards, and you get into this mess of "what if a 25th level Clueless mage arrives on the planes, does he suddenly find himself with tenth level spell slots?", or "what if this planar 30th level mage arrives on Toril? Does he suddenly find himself loosing a level and taking massive amounts of backlash damage everytime he casts a 10th level spell without a bunch of assistants?"
#4
sildatorak
Mar 24, 2005 11:18:51 On the planes, magic works in the same general way that it does on a Clueless berk's homeworld. Wizards from Krynn are still tied to their moons, and those from Faerun bring a little bit of the weave with them (or maybe they just believe they do). Who ever said that the planes were supposed to make sense?

I think that higher that 9th level spells have not generally been available (except to ancient wizards on Faerun) unless a wizard has conducted special studies. Faerun's power of magic (whatever form she may be at any time) has traditionally been exceedingly generous when it comes to handing out magic. Karsus really wrenched the hell out of things, though, and put an end to that gravy train even on Faerun.
#5
tebryn14
Mar 24, 2005 12:16:22 That's very much what I was thinking. I developed a special feat that allows a mage to cast tenth level+ spells, though it still entails a great deal of risk, unless of course he uses assistants to spread out the level draining effects, as per Secrets of the Magister. My idea was that it would apply equally everywhere, because, except for ancient Faerun, magic works in a basically equivalent fashion (even if the source is different).

My only issue now is powerful outsiders (high caste mondrons, demon lords, devilish nobility, etc.). I know that I allow gods to cast such spells as they were cast in ancient Faerun (normal part of wizard spell progression), but I wasn't sure about those near powers. I'm sure that they have the knowledge, but do they receive the same ease of use with it that gods do, or do they just use it as mortals, albeit with a much greater access to the necessary assistants?
#6
ripvanwormer
Mar 24, 2005 16:12:11
I'd think that if they worked as easily as they did on Toril before Karsus's screwup, we'd have heard something in some Planescape source mentioning higher than 9th level spells.

Planescape hardly even mentions psionics, let alone anything from the High Level Handbook or whatever it was called, which was released several years after Planescape began. As an optional system that wasn't around when Planescape started, I wouldn't expect any mention of it in any Planescape books, none of which were designed for very high-level characters.

The core issue, as I see it, is that if you let your PCs play around with True Dweomers then lots of NPCs - including celestials and fiends - have them as well.

Incidently, wasn't the Last Word an 11th level spell

No, the True Words aren't spells. They're far more fundamental elements of primal magic than that, and beyond game statistics. They're not something spellcasters write or prepare; they were already cast at the beginning of time, and still haven't gone away. They've never been assigned anything like levels.

If you say that 10th+ level spells work as normal, than you have to add them to the spell progression of all wizards, and you get into this mess of "what if a 25th level Clueless mage arrives on the planes, does he suddenly find himself with tenth level spell slots?", or "what if this planar 30th level mage arrives on Toril? Does he suddenly find himself loosing a level and taking massive amounts of backlash damage everytime he casts a 10th level spell without a bunch of assistants?"

Adding new rules to a campaign in progress are always a problem, but I wouldn't want to see the planes reduced in power just for the sake of Toril. Yeah, Toril has a limitation on high-level spells and this is built into the history of the setting, but there's no similar rule or explanation for such a rule anywhere else.

I guess my ruling would be that if the Torillian spell cap is an important part of your campaign, you might want to keep it in some form throughout the multiverse (and just say that all gods, everywhere, agreed with it). If your campaign isn't particularly concerned with things that happen on Toril, I'd ignore it and just use epic magic as outlined in the Epic Level Handbook (or Arcana Evolved, or whatever system you use).

But ordinarily, yes, a mage that comes from a world with unusual magic limitations would be able to cast spells she formally couldn't after leaving that world, and a foreign mage would take on those limitations while visiting that world. I don't see that as a mess at all - wild mages lose power while in Mechanus. All spellcasters lose power as they go toward the Spire. It isn't possible to cast spells above 1st level in the Violet (from Beyond Countless Doorways). That's something that experienced planewalkers should be used to.
#7
tebryn14
Mar 24, 2005 16:21:24 I think the guideline that makes the most sense to me is one of the other limitations that came around after Karsus: damage caps. Because the planes do have these caps (I think), then I am going to assume that the True Dweomers (I don't use epic spellcasting in my game, too 3e) function as on Toril, ie they are dangerous and cause wild magic (which I guess wouldn't make too much of a difference in some places). Since most powerful outsider who would have access to the spells would also have hit points to spare as well as plenty of servants to reduce to the risk, I think that makes sense.
#8
ripvanwormer
Mar 28, 2005 0:16:06
The Imaskari were believed to have garnered some of their ability from fiends

Were they fiends, or did the Clueless of Toril just assume that anything vaguely sinister and extraplanar was fiendish?

If you download the Horde boxed set (it's free from WotC's Previous Edition Downloads website), you'll see that at least some of the Imaskari were Dustmen, or something very close. Maybe they learned their magic in Sigil! Of course, the fact that the Horde boxed set was written by David "Zeb" Cook might have something to do with this.

Incidently, from what I've seen of it I think the Horde box may be an almost perfect game supplement.
#9
soel_griffin
Apr 06, 2005 20:09:37 Might want to take a look at 2e's Tome of Magic, specifically, Quest Spells. These were powerful spells that a faithful priest could ask his/her god in prayer for, if conditions were met. I would imagine that, in a planar setting, these would be more prevalent since priests had some weaknesses when traveling on the planes.

See also Power Keys from 2e Planescape, which allowed for normal use (and sometimes heightened use) of divine spells on differing planes. Spell Keys were the arcane type. 7th and 9th level spells heightened this way would be considerably powerful, and unique to the eyes of another caster.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tebryn14 Mar 24, 2005 1:10:05	How did higher magic (ie. True Dweomers and Elven High Magic) function on the Planes? As of now, IMC, I believe that because such magic requires a very pure Weave to cast (not aligned or one sided as the Planar "weave" is), True Dweomers require special feats to be able to cast, and entail a great deal of penalties, as per Secrets of the Magister (FR), as opposed to being a normal part of a wizards spell progression (ie., at 20th level they start being able to cast 10th level spells, etc), and High Magic cannot be cast at all, exept in specially attuned areas like the Seelie Court and Arvandor. However, at least on the topic of True Dweomers, I'm not so much sure that makes sense. The Imaskari were believed to have garnered some of their ability from fiends, and how would those fiends react if their mortal "proteges" could cast such magic much more simply than they". I do, however, believe that true gods (not quasi-deities) should be able to cast such spells (if they have enough levels, and I do believe in deity stats, BTW) as normal spell progression. Any thoughts?
#2 ripvanwormer Mar 24, 2005 2:31:54	They work fine, but not in the first nine circles of the Outlands. The Weave is unimportant, except in the Forgotten Realms. For everyone else it's a clueless Prime idea. Elven High Magic I don't know about. It makes sense that it might be restricted to elven realms.
#3 tebryn14 Mar 24, 2005 10:05:58	They work fine, but not in the first nine circles of the Outlands. The Weave is unimportant, except in the Forgotten Realms. For everyone else it's a clueless Prime idea. Elven High Magic I don't know about. It makes sense that it might be restricted to elven realms. The Weave as Torillians think of it may not exist on the Planes, but their is still as fundamental source of magic, and its aligned one way or another. On the inner planes, its an elemental alignment, and on the outer planes, its, well, alignment. I'm sure they'll function, but I'd think that if they worked as easily as they did on Toril before Karsus's screwup, we'd have heard something in some Planescape source mentioning higher than 9th level spells. Incidently, wasn't the Last Word an 11th level spell (except for that whole thing where is killed any mortal who tried to cast it (or read it), which really would make it exceed that power level exponetially?). My point is, there's an issue is spellcasters on the Planes are more powerful than those on the Prime, for balance issues (I hate balance, but is a legitimate point here). If you say that 10th+ level spells work as normal, than you have to add them to the spell progression of all wizards, and you get into this mess of "what if a 25th level Clueless mage arrives on the planes, does he suddenly find himself with tenth level spell slots?", or "what if this planar 30th level mage arrives on Toril? Does he suddenly find himself loosing a level and taking massive amounts of backlash damage everytime he casts a 10th level spell without a bunch of assistants?"
#4 sildatorak Mar 24, 2005 11:18:51	On the planes, magic works in the same general way that it does on a Clueless berk's homeworld. Wizards from Krynn are still tied to their moons, and those from Faerun bring a little bit of the weave with them (or maybe they just believe they do). Who ever said that the planes were supposed to make sense? I think that higher that 9th level spells have not generally been available (except to ancient wizards on Faerun) unless a wizard has conducted special studies. Faerun's power of magic (whatever form she may be at any time) has traditionally been exceedingly generous when it comes to handing out magic. Karsus really wrenched the hell out of things, though, and put an end to that gravy train even on Faerun.
#5 tebryn14 Mar 24, 2005 12:16:22	That's very much what I was thinking. I developed a special feat that allows a mage to cast tenth level+ spells, though it still entails a great deal of risk, unless of course he uses assistants to spread out the level draining effects, as per Secrets of the Magister. My idea was that it would apply equally everywhere, because, except for ancient Faerun, magic works in a basically equivalent fashion (even if the source is different). My only issue now is powerful outsiders (high caste mondrons, demon lords, devilish nobility, etc.). I know that I allow gods to cast such spells as they were cast in ancient Faerun (normal part of wizard spell progression), but I wasn't sure about those near powers. I'm sure that they have the knowledge, but do they receive the same ease of use with it that gods do, or do they just use it as mortals, albeit with a much greater access to the necessary assistants?
#6 ripvanwormer Mar 24, 2005 16:12:11	I'd think that if they worked as easily as they did on Toril before Karsus's screwup, we'd have heard something in some Planescape source mentioning higher than 9th level spells. Planescape hardly even mentions psionics, let alone anything from the High Level Handbook or whatever it was called, which was released several years after Planescape began. As an optional system that wasn't around when Planescape started, I wouldn't expect any mention of it in any Planescape books, none of which were designed for very high-level characters. The core issue, as I see it, is that if you let your PCs play around with True Dweomers then lots of NPCs - including celestials and fiends - have them as well. Incidently, wasn't the Last Word an 11th level spell No, the True Words aren't spells. They're far more fundamental elements of primal magic than that, and beyond game statistics. They're not something spellcasters write or prepare; they were already cast at the beginning of time, and still haven't gone away. They've never been assigned anything like levels. If you say that 10th+ level spells work as normal, than you have to add them to the spell progression of all wizards, and you get into this mess of "what if a 25th level Clueless mage arrives on the planes, does he suddenly find himself with tenth level spell slots?", or "what if this planar 30th level mage arrives on Toril? Does he suddenly find himself loosing a level and taking massive amounts of backlash damage everytime he casts a 10th level spell without a bunch of assistants?" Adding new rules to a campaign in progress are always a problem, but I wouldn't want to see the planes reduced in power just for the sake of Toril. Yeah, Toril has a limitation on high-level spells and this is built into the history of the setting, but there's no similar rule or explanation for such a rule anywhere else. I guess my ruling would be that if the Torillian spell cap is an important part of your campaign, you might want to keep it in some form throughout the multiverse (and just say that all gods, everywhere, agreed with it). If your campaign isn't particularly concerned with things that happen on Toril, I'd ignore it and just use epic magic as outlined in the Epic Level Handbook (or Arcana Evolved, or whatever system you use). But ordinarily, yes, a mage that comes from a world with unusual magic limitations would be able to cast spells she formally couldn't after leaving that world, and a foreign mage would take on those limitations while visiting that world. I don't see that as a mess at all - wild mages lose power while in Mechanus. All spellcasters lose power as they go toward the Spire. It isn't possible to cast spells above 1st level in the Violet (from Beyond Countless Doorways). That's something that experienced planewalkers should be used to.
#7 tebryn14 Mar 24, 2005 16:21:24	I think the guideline that makes the most sense to me is one of the other limitations that came around after Karsus: damage caps. Because the planes do have these caps (I think), then I am going to assume that the True Dweomers (I don't use epic spellcasting in my game, too 3e) function as on Toril, ie they are dangerous and cause wild magic (which I guess wouldn't make too much of a difference in some places). Since most powerful outsider who would have access to the spells would also have hit points to spare as well as plenty of servants to reduce to the risk, I think that makes sense.
#8 ripvanwormer Mar 28, 2005 0:16:06	The Imaskari were believed to have garnered some of their ability from fiends Were they fiends, or did the Clueless of Toril just assume that anything vaguely sinister and extraplanar was fiendish? If you download the Horde boxed set (it's free from WotC's Previous Edition Downloads website), you'll see that at least some of the Imaskari were Dustmen, or something very close. Maybe they learned their magic in Sigil! Of course, the fact that the Horde boxed set was written by David "Zeb" Cook might have something to do with this. Incidently, from what I've seen of it I think the Horde box may be an almost perfect game supplement.
#9 soel_griffin Apr 06, 2005 20:09:37	Might want to take a look at 2e's Tome of Magic, specifically, Quest Spells. These were powerful spells that a faithful priest could ask his/her god in prayer for, if conditions were met. I would imagine that, in a planar setting, these would be more prevalent since priests had some weaknesses when traveling on the planes. See also Power Keys from 2e Planescape, which allowed for normal use (and sometimes heightened use) of divine spells on differing planes. Spell Keys were the arcane type. 7th and 9th level spells heightened this way would be considerably powerful, and unique to the eyes of another caster.