My guess is they would be born as 21st level dragon, fully self-aware and containing mental and physical traits similar to their parents.
Could a 30th level male dragon and a 30th female dragon mate and produce dragon off-spring?
I don't see why not, since several of the SMs already do mate with the commoners and others and have produced offspring that way.
Me personally I plan to create some sort of template for these offspring which gives them a few inherent racial abilities.
A cool theroy would be that the spawn created from the mating of two Dragons would actually spawn a Athasian half-dragon.
As for 30/30 dragons mating?? Well.. decide.. is the female dragon sterile?? or if she can have kids, odds are they would have the powers of a dragon similar to that of other worlds, with wizardly magic progression as a natural thing, perhaps even psionics also.. but they would be slowly increased as the creature grew.. would they be immortal? that's a question.. a 30th level Dragon is immortal, yet they absorb life energy to complete the transformation to 30th.. but starting at level 21 they are immortal... I'd say the children would be like a red dragon in many ways.. as time goes by, they gain in size and strength, magic and wisdom...
Could a 30th level male dragon and a 30th female dragon mate and produce dragon off-spring?
My guess is they would be born as 21st level dragon, fully self-aware and containing mental and physical traits similar to their parents.
Honestly, I generally make dragons sterile to each other (ie: two dragons can't have any offspring together) - mainly as a side-effect of the magics & psionics that have twisted them into what they are. And, in my games, it's the offspring of the Dragons with non-dragons that gave rise to Sorcerers existing (people where arcane magic is an innate "gift") in the world. Any direct offspring of a Dragon is at least Half-Human (as all the Dragons originally were Human). The problem with Sorcerers is they are frequently not trained, and are rapidly shunned.
I do have Sorcerers divided between Defiling & Preserving like Wizards. Most quickly take up defiling practices long before any Preserver could teach them how to Preserve. They also are usually distrusted by Wizards, as they can perform the same things Wizards do, without the same rigorous studying. I even have it written up that no matter how thinned the blood gets (the number of generations between Dragon and Progeny) they all could have the potential of becoming a Sorcerer. As some Dragons are more...promiscuous than others (*cough* Abalach-Re *cough*), and all the Dragons are over 2,000 years old, this does tend to mean that virtually anyone of any race could potentially be a Sorcerer.
Beyond that, there are the Dray that Dregoth had made, which are draconian in nature.
That's my take at any rate.
Greyorm's reasoning is my kind of reasoning. I think like that and usually end up agreeing with the conclusion (but darn I can't write eloquently for 2 Cps). Sure, I see the attraction in having found a reason to bring the sorcerer class to DS, but I wouldn't allow it in my game. Still, I don't think others are crazy for wanting that; amongst the "out there" ideas, dragon-spawned sorcerers is in the top best.
Well, there's important things I have in place that makes the Sorcerer less likely to be recognized as such:
1. Sorcerers, as Arcane spellcasters on Athas, are divided between Defilers & Preservers, just like Wizards - and have exactly the same pitfalls.
2. Honestly, only a Wizard or a Sorcerer could really understand the difference between the two - for most people, it would seem like splitting hairs over the subject.
3. Vast mistrust and a gulf of envy and no small amount of loathing between Wizards and Sorcerers frequently results in many Sorcerers steering clear of Wizards - as a result of this, most Sorcerers are Defilers (since they usually avoid the Veiled Alliance). As a result of that, most Wizards aren't even all that aware of the existence of Sorcerers either.
4. Those Sorcerers who do somehow end up within the Veiled Alliance, call themselves Preservers just like the Wizards within it.
So... in the end, the net effect that my adding Sorcerers to the campaign setting was not much. It just provides another option for my players.
On another note, can avangions reproduce? Could Oronis produce offspring with a human, or maybe even with another Avangion?If they could, perhaps the offspring would inherit the ability to power their own spells like an Avangion and be exactly like PHB sorcerors. Automatically born as preservers in the purest sense!
I've also been toying with the idea of Warlocks as dragon-spawn. Perhaps the Draconic heritage gives them just the right type of raw connection to magic they need to do those things that Warlocks do.
On another note, can avangions reproduce? Could Oronis produce offspring with a human, or maybe even with another Avangion?If they could, perhaps the offspring would inherit the ability to power their own spells and be exactly like PHB sorcerors. Automatically born as preservers in the purest sense!
Possibly, but I think that if they go too far into the Avangion transformation they'd essentially become genderless. Which doesn't mean they couldn't polymorph into something with a gender, but it may just kill the desire to mate. Not to mention, if they transform into something female, they'd be stuck polymorphed for the next 9 months or so.
And how about those randy elementals. You know those air elementals always play hard-to-get. ;)
Speaking about elementals, I've briefly toyed with the idea of ritual or perhaps artifact that could transform people into elementals. The catch would be, they'd be reduced to effectively 1 HD. Not sure whether or not the idea is too cheesy.
I've also been toying with the idea of Warlocks as dragon-spawn. Perhaps the Draconic heritage gives them just the right type of raw connection to magic they need to do those things that Warlocks do.
On another note, can avangions reproduce? Could Oronis produce offspring with a human, or maybe even with another Avangion?If they could, perhaps the offspring would inherit the ability to power their own spells and be exactly like PHB sorcerors. Automatically born as preservers in the purest sense!
Considering there is basically 1 surviving Avangion, and he's really not planning on telling anyone else how to undergo the procedure (believing that his teaching the others the process was the most direct cause of them dying at the hands of the Dragons), I haven't even bothered with it. I leave Oronis as a unique individual, and pretty much bar any character in any of my campaigns to even really being able to get Oronis to teach them the process (or anyone else for that matter). Hell, I genuinely get irritated whenever any of my players use any knowledge they have as to what Oronis is, or even, for the most part, that he exists at all (Kurn is one of the "Lost Cities" after all).
However, if I was to consider it, I'd most likely place the same kind of limitations on Avangions as I do Dragons in this regard - they are sterile to each other (and for that matter, to Dragons - like that possibility would ever come up), and any offspring from them with other creatures would be considered half-human (as the only Avangion alive is a human, but it would really be half-whatever the original species the Avangion in question was).
I do tend to agree strongly with Greyorm on this - the Dragon, Avangion, Spirit of the Land & Elemental metamorphosi are magical and psionic in nature - they do not truly rewrite the individual's DNA - they merely make magical or psuonic modifications to the being. Much like how cosmetic surgery in real life doesn't modify the DNA. It's a permanent effect, and they are the new being, but deep down, in their core, the DNA is still whatever their species of origin was, and that's what they pass onto their offspring. I allow for the Sorcerer ability to exist because the magic infused into the advanced beings is so great, that it does infuse everything of thier bodies - including their reproductive systems. The effect isn't that great in the new child, but it is enough to grant them an innate understanding of how Arcane Magic works.
I'm also totally against the idea of any "automatic Preservers" - that's just not working for my own idea as to how Athas works. No automatic "good guys" - Arcane magic has a price, and a temptation with it. I'm not about to allow anything else.
Ih, for the record - I also usually play along the lines that anyone whoever has Arcane magic from another world, and comes to Athas, finds themselves completely inept, and inable to use their magic - basically, they lose all their arcane spellcaster levels. They then have to multiclass into an Athasian arcane spellcaster class in order to relearn, from the ground up, how to cast spells. In a similar fashion, my Divine spellcasters from other worlds who somehow arrive on Athas suffer like that as well. Only the Psionic manifesters from other worlds retain their abilities.
Here are my feelings:
the child of 2 FULLY evolved dragons would create a dragonlike creature. (possibly the sand dragon from the sandstorm book could be the best stats for it.) This would NOT be the same as a metamorphosised Athasian dragon but would be extremely tough in its own right. HOWEVER as this has never happened in the entire recorded history of Athas, it would be extremely rare occurance. (note also that given Athasian dragon personalities, this would not be a likely occurance to ever happen.)
I do however feel there should be a half dragon template for the athasian dragons...... though unlike normal half dragons, it should NOT have as many obviously outwards signs of what they are. I would make it a naturally psionic race, and changes favored class to sorcerer and increases several of the physical stats. Note ANY child where at least one of the parents is a dragon (of any stage of the metamorphosis) but both parents are notcomplete dragons would get this template. (so a fully evolved dragon and a dragon in any other stages child would be a half dragon, with the other part being the dragon who is only partially evolved species.
And I feel the same should happen for other advanced beings on the half template. Avangions, by the way they are created, however really would not be able to breed physically after a certain point in the metamorphosis..... that is just from the fact that they become basically a giant butterfly/moth.
I agree with xlor that only the descendants of advanced beings (or other magical experiments) should be able to become sorcerers.
And then there was the time I ran a campain where the PCs were the sorcerer kings, but that one will just make you all angry...