On Sorcerers and Bards - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

On Sorcerers and Bards

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Mar 25, 2005 10:09:50 Ok, now there has definately been a lot of ambiguity with the status of Sorcerers and Bards in current DL.

So is there any way I can get a current official answer on there status in relation to the Orders of High Sorcery?

I know alot of people have there own ideas for there games, which is cool. I, for instance, rule that Sorcerers are straight out renegades with out any question in the eyes of the Orders. I also have decided that PHB Bards do not exist on Krynn, and are replaced by the Master class and Chorister prestige class in WoTL. For the record, I REALLY like the Chorister Prc, as it fits perfectly with the image I had in my head for a DL bard. Though I think they lose too many caster levels and will probably amend it so that they lose only two, MAYBE three at most.

So does anyone know exactly and for certain how PHB BArds and Sorcerers are treated by WoHS?
#2
Dragonhelm
Mar 25, 2005 11:04:33 Well, there's a bit of a two-fold answer here.

The novel Wizards' Conclave makes it pretty clear that wizards consider sorcerers to be "blasphemers", and that the magic of sorcery is dangerous.

Towers of High Sorcery has a slightly different outlook, which I'm assuming comes into effect after the events in Wizards' Conclave.

ToHS states that each order has a different view of sorcerers.

Black Robes are to study sorcerers in order to gain what power they can, then destroy them when they are of no more use.

White Robes are to try to persuade sorcerers to become wizards and join the Orders. If they can't, they are to keep a watchful eye on them, interceding only if sorcerers become a danger.

Red Robes are the odd duck out, as Lunitari is fascinated with sorcery. They are the ones who are to study this new magic and learn what they can.

The Orders are agreed that sorcerers are forbidden to gather into a group. If they do so, then there will be conflict. The Thorn Knights would be a prime target.

No matter what, sorcerers and bards are considered renegades. It's just a matter of how each order views them.
#3
raistlinrox
Mar 25, 2005 12:02:32 I agree that sorcerers should be renegades, but bards? It's not like bards are going to go destroying cities with their magic or anything...
#4
Dragonhelm
Mar 25, 2005 12:07:31
I agree that sorcerers should be renegades, but bards? It's not like bards are going to go destroying cities with their magic or anything...

They get up to 6th level spells, which is a higher power level than those who come to take the Test. At lower spell levels, the WoHS are probably not all that worried about them. As they progress, though, they will surely gain the attention of the Conclave, who will treat them as any sorcerer of the same power level.
#5
cam_banks
Mar 25, 2005 12:15:21 One easy fix for bards is to have them cast divine spells, not arcane spells, and attribute their magic to mysticism. Most of it's mysticism anyway, if you look at it - spells which affect the mind or alter/boost/support the party. Give them back their healing spells, and you're good to go. Bards aren't affected by arcane spell failure if they're only wearing light armor, so it's not as if they're particularly unbalanced with a shift to divine spellcasting. Make sure they always require a verbal component, an instrument, etc and it shouldn't pose a significant problem.

Cheers,
Cam
#6
ferratus
Mar 25, 2005 14:26:06 Another option might be to bring back the 1e bard, which was more like a divine spellcaster if I remember correctly. A bard could work similarly a paladin or ranger for the more chaotic dieties.
#7
zombiegleemax
Mar 25, 2005 14:38:53
The novel Wizards' Conclave makes it pretty clear that wizards consider sorcerers to be "blasphemers", and that the magic of sorcery is dangerous.

Towers of High Sorcery has a slightly different outlook, which I'm assuming comes into effect after the events in Wizards' Conclave.

So the official word is that Towers of High Sorcery trumps The Wizards Conclave?
#8
ferratus
Mar 25, 2005 14:45:44 The novel department of WotC (who own the rights) might disagree. Sovereign Press stands behind its work, and the fans like this interpretation of events much better.
#9
Dragonhelm
Mar 25, 2005 15:01:19
Another option might be to bring back the 1e bard, which was more like a divine spellcaster if I remember correctly. A bard could work similarly a paladin or ranger for the more chaotic dieties.

I believe you took some levels of fighter, then thief, then druid, and then you'd be a bard.

Cam, do you remember how the 1e progression worked exactly?

The cool part is that this concept has seen new light in a prestige class called the Fochlucan Lyrist, from Complete Adventurer. I believe you have to have levels of druid, bard, and rogue to get into the class, which has a fighter's BAB.

It's a variant mystic theurge for bard/druids for the most part, but with the history behind it, it's pretty cool.

So the official word is that Towers of High Sorcery trumps The Wizards Conclave?

There's really not an official word on which one is more correct. However, I do not think the two points of view are mutually exclusive.

I would say that the point of view presented in ToHS would follow the events in WC. After Coryn uses wild magic to save the day, I think this would turn some heads within the Conclave and make them think that there could be benefits to sorcery.

At that point there's much debate, at which time they come to the conclusion they do in ToHS.

So that's my way of looking at it in a continuity-friendly manner.

Hope that helps.
#10
cam_banks
Mar 25, 2005 15:11:31
I believe you took some levels of fighter, then thief, then druid, and then you'd be a bard.

Cam, do you remember how the 1e progression worked exactly?

That's pretty much how it worked. Bards were universally powerful characters because of it, and that's without the really powerful magic instruments in the DMG that took advantage of it. The 1st edition bard was awkward, but it was also the "original" prestige class, which in turn led to the thief-acrobat "split-class" and later the Knight of Solamnia and Wizard of High Sorcery in DLA.

There's no real indication of why the 2nd edition bard ended up being a rogue subclass that picked up wizard spells on his travels, but that was the beginning of problems for bards in Dragonlance.

Cheers,
Cam
#11
zombiegleemax
Mar 25, 2005 16:22:13 Dragonhelm and Cam,

Yeah you guys are right. It was Fgt up to 5th, Thief up to 7th, then Druid up to uhh.. I don't remember, then you changed class again to Bard.
#12
Dragonhelm
Mar 25, 2005 16:41:36
There's no real indication of why the 2nd edition bard ended up being a rogue subclass that picked up wizard spells on his travels, but that was the beginning of problems for bards in Dragonlance.

My guess is that they wanted a "jack-of-all-trades", and so that's what they came up with.

*shrugs*
#13
zombiegleemax
Mar 26, 2005 6:42:54 If the prestige bard option from Unearthed Arcana is used, bards could be focussed as well as ambient arcane spellcasters, and so be acceptable to the Orders of High Sorcery.
#14
cam_banks
Mar 26, 2005 8:18:09
If the prestige bard option from Unearthed Arcana is used, bards could be focussed as well as ambient arcane spellcasters, and so be acceptable to the Orders of High Sorcery.

The prestige bard only partially solves the problem of bards by making it possible for wizards to choose the PrC. That would mean they have to take the Test and effectively become wizards of High Sorcery, with the PrC replacing the WoHS class, and taking on the same limitations and restrictions. Not entirely how one imagines bards behaving. Interestingly, the PrC asks the wizard to know a spell from one of each of three schools, each one belonging to a different Order (divination, enchantment and illusion!) Definitely playing it close to the line, but workable I suppose.

Cheers,
Cam

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Mar 25, 2005 10:09:50	Ok, now there has definately been a lot of ambiguity with the status of Sorcerers and Bards in current DL. So is there any way I can get a current official answer on there status in relation to the Orders of High Sorcery? I know alot of people have there own ideas for there games, which is cool. I, for instance, rule that Sorcerers are straight out renegades with out any question in the eyes of the Orders. I also have decided that PHB Bards do not exist on Krynn, and are replaced by the Master class and Chorister prestige class in WoTL. For the record, I REALLY like the Chorister Prc, as it fits perfectly with the image I had in my head for a DL bard. Though I think they lose too many caster levels and will probably amend it so that they lose only two, MAYBE three at most. So does anyone know exactly and for certain how PHB BArds and Sorcerers are treated by WoHS?
#2 Dragonhelm Mar 25, 2005 11:04:33	Well, there's a bit of a two-fold answer here. The novel Wizards' Conclave makes it pretty clear that wizards consider sorcerers to be "blasphemers", and that the magic of sorcery is dangerous. Towers of High Sorcery has a slightly different outlook, which I'm assuming comes into effect after the events in Wizards' Conclave. ToHS states that each order has a different view of sorcerers. Black Robes are to study sorcerers in order to gain what power they can, then destroy them when they are of no more use. White Robes are to try to persuade sorcerers to become wizards and join the Orders. If they can't, they are to keep a watchful eye on them, interceding only if sorcerers become a danger. Red Robes are the odd duck out, as Lunitari is fascinated with sorcery. They are the ones who are to study this new magic and learn what they can. The Orders are agreed that sorcerers are forbidden to gather into a group. If they do so, then there will be conflict. The Thorn Knights would be a prime target. No matter what, sorcerers and bards are considered renegades. It's just a matter of how each order views them.
#3 raistlinrox Mar 25, 2005 12:02:32	I agree that sorcerers should be renegades, but bards? It's not like bards are going to go destroying cities with their magic or anything...
#4 Dragonhelm Mar 25, 2005 12:07:31	I agree that sorcerers should be renegades, but bards? It's not like bards are going to go destroying cities with their magic or anything... They get up to 6th level spells, which is a higher power level than those who come to take the Test. At lower spell levels, the WoHS are probably not all that worried about them. As they progress, though, they will surely gain the attention of the Conclave, who will treat them as any sorcerer of the same power level.
#5 cam_banks Mar 25, 2005 12:15:21	One easy fix for bards is to have them cast divine spells, not arcane spells, and attribute their magic to mysticism. Most of it's mysticism anyway, if you look at it - spells which affect the mind or alter/boost/support the party. Give them back their healing spells, and you're good to go. Bards aren't affected by arcane spell failure if they're only wearing light armor, so it's not as if they're particularly unbalanced with a shift to divine spellcasting. Make sure they always require a verbal component, an instrument, etc and it shouldn't pose a significant problem. Cheers, Cam
#6 ferratus Mar 25, 2005 14:26:06	Another option might be to bring back the 1e bard, which was more like a divine spellcaster if I remember correctly. A bard could work similarly a paladin or ranger for the more chaotic dieties.
#7 zombiegleemax Mar 25, 2005 14:38:53	The novel Wizards' Conclave makes it pretty clear that wizards consider sorcerers to be "blasphemers", and that the magic of sorcery is dangerous. Towers of High Sorcery has a slightly different outlook, which I'm assuming comes into effect after the events in Wizards' Conclave. So the official word is that Towers of High Sorcery trumps The Wizards Conclave?
#8 ferratus Mar 25, 2005 14:45:44	The novel department of WotC (who own the rights) might disagree. Sovereign Press stands behind its work, and the fans like this interpretation of events much better.
#9 Dragonhelm Mar 25, 2005 15:01:19	Another option might be to bring back the 1e bard, which was more like a divine spellcaster if I remember correctly. A bard could work similarly a paladin or ranger for the more chaotic dieties. I believe you took some levels of fighter, then thief, then druid, and then you'd be a bard. Cam, do you remember how the 1e progression worked exactly? The cool part is that this concept has seen new light in a prestige class called the Fochlucan Lyrist, from Complete Adventurer. I believe you have to have levels of druid, bard, and rogue to get into the class, which has a fighter's BAB. It's a variant mystic theurge for bard/druids for the most part, but with the history behind it, it's pretty cool. So the official word is that Towers of High Sorcery trumps The Wizards Conclave? There's really not an official word on which one is more correct. However, I do not think the two points of view are mutually exclusive. I would say that the point of view presented in ToHS would follow the events in WC. After Coryn uses wild magic to save the day, I think this would turn some heads within the Conclave and make them think that there could be benefits to sorcery. At that point there's much debate, at which time they come to the conclusion they do in ToHS. So that's my way of looking at it in a continuity-friendly manner. Hope that helps.
#10 cam_banks Mar 25, 2005 15:11:31	I believe you took some levels of fighter, then thief, then druid, and then you'd be a bard. Cam, do you remember how the 1e progression worked exactly? That's pretty much how it worked. Bards were universally powerful characters because of it, and that's without the really powerful magic instruments in the DMG that took advantage of it. The 1st edition bard was awkward, but it was also the "original" prestige class, which in turn led to the thief-acrobat "split-class" and later the Knight of Solamnia and Wizard of High Sorcery in DLA. There's no real indication of why the 2nd edition bard ended up being a rogue subclass that picked up wizard spells on his travels, but that was the beginning of problems for bards in Dragonlance. Cheers, Cam
#11 zombiegleemax Mar 25, 2005 16:22:13	Dragonhelm and Cam, Yeah you guys are right. It was Fgt up to 5th, Thief up to 7th, then Druid up to uhh.. I don't remember, then you changed class again to Bard.
#12 Dragonhelm Mar 25, 2005 16:41:36	There's no real indication of why the 2nd edition bard ended up being a rogue subclass that picked up wizard spells on his travels, but that was the beginning of problems for bards in Dragonlance. My guess is that they wanted a "jack-of-all-trades", and so that's what they came up with. shrugs
#13 zombiegleemax Mar 26, 2005 6:42:54	If the prestige bard option from Unearthed Arcana is used, bards could be focussed as well as ambient arcane spellcasters, and so be acceptable to the Orders of High Sorcery.
#14 cam_banks Mar 26, 2005 8:18:09	If the prestige bard option from Unearthed Arcana is used, bards could be focussed as well as ambient arcane spellcasters, and so be acceptable to the Orders of High Sorcery. The prestige bard only partially solves the problem of bards by making it possible for wizards to choose the PrC. That would mean they have to take the Test and effectively become wizards of High Sorcery, with the PrC replacing the WoHS class, and taking on the same limitations and restrictions. Not entirely how one imagines bards behaving. Interestingly, the PrC asks the wizard to know a spell from one of each of three schools, each one belonging to a different Order (divination, enchantment and illusion!) Definitely playing it close to the line, but workable I suppose. Cheers, Cam