I have the Grayhawk Gazetteer and the latest maps from Dungeon, but I'm by no means an expert on the setting. I'd like to hear how well you think this would fit in with the Grayhawk canon, and any other ideas from Grayhawk that would lend a little more depth to my "new world," especially to the settlers from the Flanaess.
Thanks
However, you can make of your Greyhawk as you wish (duh!). Don't mean for that to sound too trite.
Going with mapping the planet outside the Flanaess as you wish, having a continent settled by seafaring Suel barbarians is within canon. There have been hints that Snow barbarian explorers recently returned from a land east of the Flanaess. They described it differently that what you wish to do, but who is to say they explored the entire landmass, but only found a set of large islands off the coast of what you want a continent to be like.
There is enough in canon to back up your idea so that you could run with it.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
What did the Snow Barbarians say they found, if you don't mind me asking?
The 'Fireland' stuff sounds intriguing, as well as starting an eastern continent from scratch.
Any chance of sharing your developments?- I think I'd be a cool idea to develop this so that others can partake in the fun.
I know I'd like to develop some stuff, while knowing that I'm on the same track as others, etc.
Here's what I gathered so far:
- The Oerik continent represents only 14% of Oerth land mass. This means the planet is
huge. - Oerth has four continents. The Flanaess is the eastern tip of Oerik (the main continent in Oerth) and there are three other continents... somewhere.
- According to official maps, two of the three missing continents are Hyperboria and Polaria, which are the rough equivalent to our North and South Poles, respectively.
- Fireland is northwest of Oerik, but it's more of a big island than a true continent. The reasons to support this are:
a) - the fourth missing continent of Oerth must be the biggest in Oerth, in order to complete the full unaccounted land mass of the planet.
b) - Fireland is smaller than the Flanaess. - Like Fireland, Hepmonaland, which is south of the Flanaess, is just a big island, mostly covered by Jungle.
Chances are, when Gary Gygax created Greyhawk, he never planned that people would go into these details but, in order to accept the official published material as "fact", some assumptions are necessary.
Note that Greyhawk is heavily based on real life territories, and novels that Gary Gygax used to read, which is why you have places like Erypt (clearly based on Egypt), Nippon (probably Japan), and Zindia (probably India), while the northern continent, Hyperboria, sounds inspired by the "Conan" novels.
That said, I feel somewhat confortable to take ideas from real life Earth geography and apply them to Greyhawk because that's how the setting was built in the first place. I just wish I had a good mapping program so I could simulate a full Oerth map with some degree of accuracy.
East of Oerik is Aquaria and south of that lie Ana Keri and *thinks* Antaria. (While the first two are somewhat semi-canon, the last one is purely fan made.)
Of course, you're free to imagine whatever you want, but I think that for your purposes, Aquaria (freely available web document, just google) might serve very well.
East of Oerik is Aquaria and south of that lie Ana Keri and *thinks* Antaria. (While the first two are somewhat semi-canon, the last one is purely fan made.)
Ivid, for the sake of canon (or at least my canonical version of Greyhawk), where did you find that information? If it's "semi-canon" (whatever you mean by that) or "fan made", then it's probably not official and shouldn't be considered.
Of course, you're free to imagine whatever you want, but I think that for your purposes, Aquaria (freely available web document, just google) might serve very well.
The OP did show interest in being true to "canon" in his first post, so "Google" may not be the best option. If you can point out specific, official, sources, please do.
(Antaria is a Suel colony with a certain Ravenloft/Falkovnia touch, don't exactly remember where I got the material; Ana Keri is the mythical origin of the elder races, if I am not mistaken... Oerth Journal I, I believe...)
Aquaria is the most *official* of that settings, having been written by Frank Mentzer (ToEE co-author!) and rumours say that it would have been published as a supplement for WoG if Mr Gygax hadn't left TSR. It is available via different sources from the web, a complete .doc and with good maps.
That's almost all info I can give you... I am not so much of Greyhawk scholar... But will try to help if you've further questions... But looking for the data itself, best option is *google*... There you may find more material than I can provide you. (Although, if you can't find anything, just let me know and I'll send it to you. We Hawkers have to stick together!)
AFAIK I know, Ana Keri and Antaria are fan-made, but already well-established. Check Canonfire for more info...
Ahh... but Canonfire, despite its name, is not considered "canon". If Greyhawk were to return, I doubt WotC would use anything that is published there (specially without written authorization from the original authors which, most often, aren't identified by their real life names).
Aquaria is the most *official* of that settings, having been written by Frank Mentzer (ToEE co-author!) and rumours say that it would have been published as a supplement for WoG if Mr Gygax hadn't left TSR.
I see your point, but material which hasn't been officially published can't be considered as "canon", even if it came from the original creators of the setting. Otherwise, I'd have to take Gary Gygax word that Oerth isn't Geocentric, and that Wars and From the Ashes never happened.
That's almost all info I can give you... I am not so much of Greyhawk scholar... But will try to help if you've further questions... But looking for the data itself, best option is *google*... There you may find more material than I can provide you. (Although, if you can't find anything, just let me know and I'll send it to you. We Hawkers have to stick together!)
Very true. I don't consider myself a scholar either, but I'm a sucker for the underdog, so I dedicate myself almost exclusively to Greyhawk and Mystara these days.
I have searched Google for the names you gave me and I confirmed that I can't consider them as canon.
- Antaria is a downloadable PDF from a Geocities site which assumes that the Suel people fled to a lost continent which, assuming the measures are correct, it's too small to be considered a continent in the first place.
- Aquaria is a "what if" creation. It was assumed by the people in Canonfire that the land exists but there's no Greyhawk product supporting its existance (that I know of).
- Ana Keri... I still need to find more about this one. I found some forum posts which mention it briefly, but no useful information was found. Since my purpose is to find "canon" information, it's probably not worth the trouble.
Not bad for a "half-an-hour" search, though... ;)
If you were to go with something like this map--
http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif
--you can see where Fireland, Hyperboria and Polaria are placed, as well as at least one additional continent in the lower left/lower right portion of the map. (It could be two different continents, or it could be two parts of one continent whose joining is not shown.)
That's a pretty cool map, especially with the signature on the bottom (Dave Sutherland III) making it feel "canonic." But of course, even if it were canon, nobody is locked into it unless they want to be. At the very least, it's something to look at when drawing your own version of the world.
However, IMO, the point is, one can make whatever he wants about his campaign world, but there are already many things out there that, if not canon, can be considered common lore. I mean, honestly, I don't think whatever one comes up with would be considered equal to what has already been made...
http://members.aol.com/cathbhadhx/tsroerth.gif
That's the Dragon Annual map. It's the one I use as a base for my research.
Too bad that the search engine is down. Many details from Aquaria and the other lands of Oerth have been discussed here... For instance, did you know that the I series was originally planned to take place in Aquaria? -Including Ravenloft!
I didn't know that, but the fact that it never happened keeps it from being canon, I'm afraid. And I agree that the Search function is SO being missed
However, IMO, the point is, one can make whatever he wants about his campaign world
I agree, but I want to make one thing clear: It's NOT my intention to tell people what is the "right" way to play Greyhawk, but I would like to have an accurate version of the game so that people can refer to when/if needed. Or, at least, as close to "accurate" as humanly possible.
I've been playing in Greyhawk just fine without that canon information, but recently I started to create a Mega-Campaign which is meant to take my players from the Pre-History of Oerth to the Common Years. I'm even creating specific Races, Classes and Prestige Classes for the different locations and timelines.
There's very little on the past of Oerth, but if I gather all the canon information and do a little "reverse engineering", I may come up with a believable timeline for the whole Oerth.
I know most of it will have to be my own creation, but I also want it to "feel" like Greyhawk. Is this making any sense?
I didn't know that, but the fact that it never happened keeps it from being canon, I'm afraid. And I agree that the Search function is SO being missed
...
I agree, but I want to make one thing clear: It's NOT my intention to tell people what is the "right" way to play Greyhawk, but I would like to have an accurate version of the game so that people can refer to when/if needed. Or, at least, as close to "accurate" as humanly possible.
Hope you didn't feel offended!
Everyone's home campaign it's his/her lookout, no question.
However, if one wants to publish something for us small game community, he got to know that there are already well-established *if not canon, then let's call it propositions* out there.
- I mean, doing a netbook or article that declared Aquaria elseworld would not be accepted any more, IMO, if it wasn't quite ingenious...
As I understood that the OP was up to that, I thought I had to point that out clearly... ;)
However, what one cooks out for his HC isn't bound by any canon...
http://www.darkholmekeep.net/downloads/
They have the complete downloads, which include history and maps
Maraudar
- Although most Hawkers tend to accept it, because it seems to have been approved by Gygax himself.
*I personally seriously wonder what would have become of WoG if TSR had given the credit to Aquaria and not to FR...*
That's the Dragon Annual map. It's the one I use as a base for my research.
It wasn't the one I was looking for, but it was all I could find. :embarrass The one I wanted to link to was hand-drawn, I think.
I can never find what I want anymore! :bewail: :bemoan:
*I personally seriously wonder what would have become of WoG if TSR had given the credit to Aquaria and not to FR...*
The computer game that saved computer RPGs would have been called Mordenkainens' Gate and not Baldurs' Gate. :D
Followed by *Tales of the Icy Coast*, *Tiger Nomad Dale* and *Blackmoor Nights*...
:raincloud
Why, oh why did they have to cancel Greyhawk...
Whatever, you know what? This'll be my first and last Greyhawk rant, I am going to go ahead and enjoy my favorite setting in peace and try and push it wherever I can.
So is Aquaria not included on the maps of Oerth that were linked above? And could someone summarize the story of the Oeridians being from/going back to Aquaria?
I said this:
The best source of Aquaria info appears in the module R4 Doc's Island, published by the RPGA in 1983. It's available from www.svgames.com and www.rpgnow.com IIRC.
There's a four page history of how Aquaria was founded by mixed Oerid-Flan Aerdy stock c. 522 OR, although that clause contains the most pertienent info for most Greyhawk games since the rest of the history details how the Aquarians ("Aquaerdians") survived and developed in the new lands, east across the Solnor.
at http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-84952.html back in 2003. I hope that helps :D
Funny, I've been in the process of "filling" the rest of Oerth for some time now, but I've been struggling with some canon issues.
Here's what I gathered so far:
- The Oerik continent represents only 14% of Oerth land mass. This means the planet is
- Oerth has four continents. The Flanaess is the eastern tip of Oerik (the main continent in Oerth) and there are three other continents... somewhere.
- According to official maps, two of the three missing continents are Hyperboria and Polaria, which are the rough equivalent to our North and South Poles, respectively.
- Fireland is northwest of Oerik, but it's more of a big island than a true continent. The reasons to support this are:
a) - the fourth missing continent of Oerth must be the biggest in Oerth, in order to complete the full unaccounted land mass of the planet.
b) - Fireland is smaller than the Flanaess.- Like Fireland, Hepmonaland, which is south of the Flanaess, is just a big island, mostly covered by Jungle.
FWIW, according to The Adventure Begins (p. 5), Oerth is said to have a circumference of 25,200 miles, a diameter of about 8,021.5 miles, and a surface area of 202,139,540 square miles; the latter two calculations are slightly off, however. It's diameter is actually 8,021.41 miles and it's surface area is 202,139,510.12 square miles (if hollow, however, the exterior surface area would be slightly less to allow for the polar entrances).
In any case, the northern continent is named High Boros/Hi-Boros/Hy-Bora/Hibore/Hybrea/Hyborre and even Telchuria, but the south polar region, Polaria, is composed only of several mountainous islands and an icecap in the winter.
Hepmonaland is the third continent, and the fourth one (which appears on the maps in the LGG and the Gazeteer) located southwest of Oerik isn't even named.
Fire-Land/Fireland appears to be an archipelago composed of one large island with at least 3-4 smaller ones.
Regardless of the source, there's still plenty of adventure to be had in the Flanaess without even travelling to any of the other continents...
Too bad that the search engine is down. Many details from Aquaria and the other lands of Oerth have been discussed here... For instance, did you know that the I series was originally planned to take place in Aquaria? -Including Ravenloft!
Tsk, tsk. Raf, my friend, we already debated this. There is ZERO proof that I6 was supposed to be part of Aquaria. Of those that were published (before the retcon bat hit them.. hard), the following would (probably) have fit in Aquaria: I2 to I5, I7 to I9, I11 to I12.
Unless you finally managed to get confirmation from Tracy or Laura Hickman?
Tsk, tsk. Raf, my friend, we already debated this. There is ZERO proof that I6 was supposed to be part of Aquaria. Of those that were published (before the retcon bat hit them.. hard), the following would (probably) have fit in Aquaria: I2 to I5, I7 to I9, I11 to I12.
Unless you finally managed to get confirmation from Tracy or Laura Hickman?
Indeed, from today's perspective, I would not write this any more. (I asked the mighty Mentzer himself, and he said that the I6 module in its published form and his setting hadn't be meant to be combined. -Mr Mentzer said that there was room for vampires in Aquaria, but that in his campaign simply there was no Strahd, nor was one meant to be. - As to Mr and Mrs Hickman, I didn't ask them any more after such definite answer.)The problem about this thread suddenly popping up from unlife, is that the thread is about a year old...
The unnamed one on the LGG map has been named in non-canon sources as Anakeris.
Nice to know. Many years back (long before anyone knew what was beyond the Flanaess), I had toyed with the idea of other continents and possible names. One I came up with, which I think really fits in with "Oerth" and "Oerik," is "Oerin"... however, with so much to do in the Flanaess (and with the occasional trips through time, to parallel universes and various planes), I don't know if I'll have a reason to develop anything there...
- Like Fireland, Hepmonaland, which is south of the Flanaess, is just a big island, mostly covered by Jungle.
Chances are, when Gary Gygax created Greyhawk, he never planned that people would go into these details but, in order to accept the official published material as "fact", some assumptions are necessary.
Actually there is some canon sources that say Hepmonaland is one of the continents of Oerth. Scarlet Brotherhood being one of them. It is too large to be an island by Earth standards.
According to official maps, two of the three missing continents are Hyperboria and Polaria, which are the rough equivalent to our North and South Poles, respectively.
This is probably not true. On earth the North Pole is definitely not a continent but a polar ice cap. It is debatable whether Polaria or Hyperboria is an ice cap or a continent.
So depending on your view there is two or three continents that could be developed. My own unconcrete view would be to have a continent that has a western empire of displaced Aerdians (similar to Aquaria but without those place names). And a southern continent (Anakeris, seems like a good name) that could be attached to Polaria. Something similar to Australia that is large enough to encompass Antarctica.
I recently read Erik's article on the Sagard books and how they might fit into western Oerth and think some good ideas could be culled from that as well. I don't like the name Gondoria much (a little too Tolkien for me) but some of the ideas for cultures and continents seem promising.
Oerth from the Ground Up, by Roger Moore from Oerth Journal 3
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~monax002/Council/OJ3/go1.html
Measuring up Oerth, by Gary Holian from Oerth Journal 4
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~monax002/Council/OJ4/measure.html
Also the following discussion thread about the Migrations of the Oerid goes into the Westerns Oerik-Chainmail setting connection and beyond. (Also contains some very nice mapwork by Rip)
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1630&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
(copy/paste the link or you'll be reffered to the main page only)
We have the Dragon Annual Map, which purports to be a world map. We have the RPGA modules R1-4 that feature "Aquaria." We have the Chainmail minis game that goes into detail on Ravallia and its neighbors. Unfortunately, not one takes any account of the others (where this was possible). The picture is "unsettled."
It is not possible to say with any certainty what shape things take beyond the Flanaess. The entire globe is pretty much open for whatever you want without fear of running afoul of "canon," because there is no definitive canon.
But you can start welding the various pieces together - as that Canonfire thread (and esp. Rasgon's great composite map) showed. I don't know a lot about Chainmail, but it seems it can be fitted into western Oerik and the Aquaria myth quite well.
Then there's Erik Mona's Bounds of the Oerth post, where he tries to stick realms from Sagard into the west. This works as a traveller's tale - that's accurate to a point (and that point is about as far west as the Celestial Imperium/Sufhang - after that the geography goes well off whack - as you might expect from a traveller without good maps).
Then there's the Mahasarpa setting that can be ported into a part of Zahind (Chomar) with a few tweaks here and there. And finally, there's the DA 1 map - which if you take out the silly earth names (Erypt? Why for god's sake?) and assume it's dates from over 1,000 years ago to account for the differences with the Chainmail map - you have a good braod template to start detailing the areas of the west not covered in the other sources (like Lynn and the rest of South Eastern Oerik).
P.
You _can_ make the attempt to reconcile/incorporate all of the disparite sources but "can" is the operative term.
There is nothing wrong either with creating your new continent and plopping it down in the Solnor someplace (note how the edges of the DA map are ragged - the map is incomplete!). One should not feel restricted by canon or even "quasi-canon" - neither really exists much beyond its various adherants.
Just to allay some fears, it seems pretty obvious that the Sagard novels are meant to be set on Oerth. If this is not the case, and they take place on Yarth, as mentioned by Gygax himself in Polyhedron, that world has at least a dozen countries that are almost exact matches, and calls itself Oerth, as well. I have no doubts that Gygax _meant_ to set his books there. He also _meant_ to publish the City of Greyhawk, Castle Greyhawk, Shadowrealm, and about a hundred other projects. Oh well.
Erik Mona's "Bounds of the Oerth" what could be interpreted as clear parallels to, for example, the Empire of Lynn and the Chainmail setting. And yeah, that ties into the "can" qualifier that GV was talking about.
I agree with the rest of GV Dammerung's post (and, really, the part I quoted is true as well as far as that goes).
There is canon on the continental arrangement of the Oerth though - the inset map of The Oerth on the LGG map - which shows Fireland and Anakeris being the only major land masses in the Solnor.
P.
CJ the Enchantress: "What the hells is that?"
Mordy the Mapmaker: "That's where you've been living all these years."
:D Kwint
--Erik
Well there goes my free time!
I'm kinda satisfied to see that most of my guesses for locations east of Sufheng were largely correct.
Another fantastic job, Rip!
P.
Kwint
As I am totally unfamiliar with the Bounds of the Oerth article/post, I take it is s'posed to completely toss out the Dragon Annual Map...
Not exactly. It preceded the Dragon Annual Map by several years (it's dated June 1996). You should be able to find a copy by googling "GH LOG 14 - Bounds of Oerik" - it's hosted on Canonfire!
But part of the point of this was to show that they're not entirely incompatible. I just hadn't gotten around to that part yet. Here's a brief key:
Gonduria = Western Oerik.
Gondorians = A race of highly technological aliens allegedly responsible for the creation of humans on Oerth. They lived in the region called the Red Kingdom, north of the Wuga Jungle.
Agitoric Ocean = Implied to be a vast Pacific-sized body in the article, but Suhfang is said to possibly be on the other side of it (which it is, in part), and Vulzar is on its eastern shore.
Tsing-Chu = A former colony of Suhfang, now a militant theocracy. Said to be located "south of the great bay that intersects southwest Oerik." Note that there are supposed to be a number of nations in this region.
The Tsongs = Pirates exiled from their homelands, tolerated by the Tsing-Chuans in order to harass their enemies. I placed them somewhat arbitrarily, so that they could easily pester the people of Suhfang.
Vulzar = A land ruled by sorcerous albinos, rivals of the Tsing-Chuans (thus neighboring it). The long central mountain range it abuts (which also divides Zahind from Suhfang) is called the Slate Mountains. The capital, which I didn't place, is called Wii Shangazza, the Home of the Gods.
Davann = The Davanians are a barbaric people dwelling in the Slate Mountains themselves. They ride giant bats and dinosaurs.
Gargian Bay = This is the body of water called the "Sea of Nippon" in the Dragon Annual map. A chain of islands, the Hydrianians, defines its southern border.
The Isle of Slith = This is the easternmost of the Hydrianian archipelago. It's populated by reptilian humans, perhaps related to pureblood yuan-ti.
Skull Islands = These are pirate-infested waters south of the Hydrianian Islands. St. Koal is a legendary island revered by pirates.
Vanian Confederation = Directly southeast of Vulzar, a collection of seven city-states that once ruled the Hydrianian and Skull archipelagos. The cities include Yate, Talea, Ecomia and Drakosia.
Hitaxia = This is a vast empire to the south of the Vanian Confederation. The article implies that the peninsula (called the "Nippon Dominion" in Dragon Annual #1) is an isthmus leading to another continental mass, but we know this isn't the case. Thus, Hitaxia must be based in Western Oerik/Gonduria, extending from the southern coasts of the islands Tsing Chu is on to the border of the southern jungles, where it can dominate Vanian society and be the most influential power of the south, as the article requires.
The Wuga Jungle = Called the "Barbarian Seameast" in Dragon Annual #1, the most prominent savages of this region are the Kodokii, who are exiles from Fex. The Rabak Armor from Dragon Annual #1 might be popular here.
The Putuma Straights = This is the body of water connecting what the Dragon Annual calls the Gulf of Ishtar and the Sea of Thunder. Called the "Putuma River" in "Bounds," I've put the jungles of Zymbia on a different continent for a variety of reasons. There may be a giant stone causeway connecting Oerik with "AnaKeri," which would be interesting.
Fex = Fex is a desert region, the same as what the Chainmail map calls the Southlands. Drazen's Horde and Ahmut's Legion mark its northern portion. The empire of Hetaxia uses it as its dumping ground for criminals.
Tanzula = The Tanzulan grasslands make up the whole of the "Gulf of Ishtar" coast. Its inhabitants are said to be refugees from the jungles of Zymbia to the south; they fled centuries ago.
Zymbia = These are savage jungle lands, wilder since the exodus of the Tanzulans. They take up the northern half of AnaKeri, ending in the Sala-Nus foothills. The southeast of the continent is controlled by the remnants of the inhuman Moboddo Empire. Some of the exotic, organic armors described in the Dragon Annual #1 would be perfect here, especially the Armor of the Ventadari.
Gyptic and Nuxes = The people of these nations were taught culture and technology by the Moboddo. The article actually says they're south of Tanzula, so it might be better to put them there and have the entire continent of AnaKeri dominated by Moboddo and the Zymbian rainforest. Shrug. Yeah, I'm going to go back and fix that.
Chadan and Gundan = These are said to be the oldest peoples on Oerth, so I've associated them with the Tarquis Dominions and Ishtarland.
Thalos = The northwesternmost kingdom of Oerik, also known as the Empire of Lynn.
There are a few other ways I could have configured this. Zymbia could be part of the Barbarian Seameast, and AnaKeri could be the Island of Batmos, or the location of Chadan and Gundan. Actually, that might work better.
And where is Komal btw?...
It's not in the article, so it was beyond the scope of this particular map. It should be up in the Baklunish lands, on the other side of the Drawmij.
I think the Flanaess is a more accurate depiction of typical sized nations with the environs of the Great Kingdom probably being one of the largest former empires on Oerik....[In other words I think some of those countries are way too big.]
But it certainly makes one think about how little Greyhawk has been developed.
Kwint
Rip, thanks for the synopsis...I guess what I meant was that all the names are different...Frex, one has Tsing-Chu, the othe Erypt...This would also suggest that the cultures of the two are quite different, one pseudo-east asian, the other pseudo-egyptian...Are the two s'posed to be different interpretations of the non-Flanaess Oerik at the same time (late 6th cent. CY) or of two different time periods?...
Kwint
I assume Tsing-Chu and Erypt are exactly the same thing, but only because "Erypt" is a terrible name - also note that although Tsing-Chu was originally a colony of Suhfang, it isn't necessarily extremely Chinese at this stage in its development. It's possible that it was an Egyptian-type region colonized by a Chinese-type region, which then won its independence. Another possibility is that Tsing-Chu and Erypt are two different states next to each other on the same coast, though "Erypt" is still a terrible excuse for a name.
Nightdruid: I deleted the file for a minute or so in order to upload a smaller version. You must have looked at the thread at precisely the wrong time.
Nightdruid: I deleted the file for a minute or so in order to upload a smaller version. You must have looked at the thread at precisely the wrong time.
Oh I figured that, just couldn't resist the jest
Nice map, btw.I assume Tsing-Chu and Erypt are exactly the same thing, but only because "Erypt" is a terrible name - also note that although Tsing-Chu was originally a colony of Suhfang, it isn't necessarily extremely Chinese at this stage in its development.
I always figured Gyptic and Erypt were the same thing, at least in flavor. I think both are horrible names but I think Gary was trying to inspire a northeast African flavor.
I have a problem with jungles in south-west Oerik though. The main one being it's entirely the wrong latitude and situation for steamy jungles (which tend to be equitorial or tropical) They lie in the southern temperate zone on the shores of a cold southern sea recieving prevailing winds from the pole and/ot the dessicated heart of the western Oerik.
Now you could say - oh but weather on the Oerth is all magical, but this is stretching it a bit too far for my liking.
My answer for this discontinuity is to treat it as a travellers' tale (like Prestor John or El Dorado) and work to find the nugget of truth embedded in the myth. For example, it's possible there might we a temperate rain forest down there (like Seattle or parts of New Zealand) rather than steamy equitorial jungle. There's inventive ways to work around it.
P.
For example, it's possible there might we a temperate rain forest down there (like Seattle or parts of New Zealand) rather than steamy equitorial jungle. There's inventive ways to work around it.
Good idea. I think the jungles of the Barbarian Seameast might well be temperate rain forests.
First - jungles won't work on Anakeris for much the same reason as they don't in nearby south-western Oerik. If you look at the latitude, currents and likely prevailing winds - the north of Anakeris is likely to be desert, while the southern parts are far enough south to have tundra. In between you'll have temperate lands - especially in the eastern/south eastern and south western ends.
Second - integrating this with the Dragon Annual map - I think it's best to assume that the DA1 map is ancient (since it shows both the Suel Imperium and the Baklunish Empire). So the nations shown there may or may not be still around in the present day (and the Bounds of the Oerth "dates" from before the Greyhawk Wars IIRC.
So - for example - the Empire of Lynn might be Thalos or it might have been destroyed by the rise of Hitaxa or the olven war detailed in Chainmail. Or given that different people will call different nations different things, Hitaxa might even be Lynn.
Good idea. I think the jungles of the Barbarian Seameast might well be temperate rain forests.
So the "savages" there might be similar to the Maoris of New Zealand or the Amerindians of the Pacific Northwest?
The Celestial Imperium of Suhfang was founded about five to thousand years before present. It was formed by the unification of the Seven Kingdoms (mentioned in the old Oerid tales of Johydee) that occupied the tropical lands north of the Agitoric Sea by the warlord emperor of the kingdom of Suhfang. It was bound together by the draconian legalistic laws of an ancient Suhfangi philosopher, whose teachings where used by the mandarins of the first emperor to organise the new state.
About 3,500 years before present, the Suhfangi began to spread north, driven by population pressures to occupy more and more of the subtropical and steppe lands that had traditionally been the home of the nomadic Bakluni and Oeridian peoples. The inevitable wars that followed led to the defeat of the Bakluni and Oerid nomads, sending many thousands fleeing east and west to escape the Suhfangi armies. In Bakluni lore, this is known as the Hegira, when the first Padishah fled across the mountains into the Near West where he forged the disparate Bakluni tribes into an Empire – conquering the Oerids who had long wandered the eastern steppes and plains.
However, the Suhfang could not long maintain their grasp over the trackless steppes of the north and the wild roaming nomad barbarians that inhabited them. The Khans of the western Bakluni proved a persistent thorn in the side of the Suhfang emperors as did the numerous orcs and other goblinkin who, driven north by the encroaching Suhfang, made their homes in the plains, hills and mountains of the north. Eventually, one emperor drew a line in the sand and built a vast wall to define the northern borders of the empire and shut out the roving maurauders (this is the wall shown on the DA 1 map cordoning off “Orcreich” and the Khanates.
To the east, the Suhfang made contact with the Suel – peacefully at first – trading goods, lore and ideas. However, as the Suel grew haughtier, the relationship between the two empires was marked by bloody wars, which frequently devastated the border provinces of both states. After the fall of the Suel Imperium, Suel refugees poured into eastern Suhfang, where they became a downtrodden servant and slave caste – a situation most remain in to this day.
With the threat of the Suel snuffed out, the Suhfang also expanded southwards, invading the lands on the southern shores of the Agitoric Sea – driving the native populace into the desert or onto the high seas (these were the first forefathers of the Tsongs) and destroying the ancient civilisation that had flourished there. The Sufhang colonies flourished – but they also brought unrest to the heart of the empire, as new cults and religions spread and gained power under a series of decadent and weak emperors. Foremost among these alien cults was the faith of Khuzkan, the chief god of the conquered desert people of the south.
The result was a revolution and dynastic civil war that sundered the Empire for a time, until at last a new dynasty was founded. The new emperor had mastery over the mental disciplines and was said to be able to control matter with his mind and read the thoughts of others as easily as other men read books. He restablished the old laws of ancient Suhfeng and reformed the imperial bureaucracy, filling it with men trained in the same disciplines of mind. All religions were banned, saved for the secular Tao of mental mastery amd meditation promulgated by the new Emperor and the ancient Arcane Lore of the Five Imperial Dragons – the foundation of the elemental magic of the mighty wu jen. Some priests were slain in the reforms. Most though were exiled to the colonies – where they were tolerated and where in time, they came to rule – as in the land of Tsing Chu.
Khuzkan, by the way, sounds less like Pelor and more like Pholtus. I posit that he’s was the main god of the people of the desert coasts south of the Agitoric Sea (similar to Ra for the Egyptians). He represented the burning light of the Sun – who judges good men from evil doers. The “Eryptians” (need a better name) used to judge cases by exposing to the concentrated rays of the sun inside hewn polished stone bowls. If they were innocent, Khuzkan would protect them. If they were guilty, Khuzkan consumed them.
The sorcerous albinos of Vulzar sound suspiciously Suel. It’s possible, given their location that they are the descendents of either Suel exiles or settlers. Given we know that the Suel and the Suhfang warred in the past, its possible that the Suel conquered and settled the lands on the eastern shores of the Agitoric. Alternatively, they broke away from the Suel Imperium and settled the lands there independently of the writ of the Suel Imperators. The fact that they resisted the attentions of three empires in antiquity (presumably Suhfang, the Vanian Confederation and Chomur/Mahasarpa) suggests that Vulzar is an ancient foundation – and more probably Suel outcasts than Suel settlers.
Behow and Sa’han sound like they should be just west or in the Slate Mountains bordering on Chomur and the Sea of Dust, rather than farther south.
From Bounds of the Oerth by Erik Mona:
“West of Chomur, in a small valley, the Suhfang outpost of Behow stands as a gate to the wonders of the Far West.”
This sounds like a kind of Oerthly Nepal or Tibet and might be the same as the land of Naga mentioned in the Mahasarpa (if we place old Mahasarpa in Chomur).
From Bounds of the Oerth by Erik Mona:
“Due north of Behow, the legendary land of Sa'han claims the title of easternmost holding of the Suhfang Kingdom.”
If Behow is west of Chomur, then Sa’han must lie west of the Sea of Dust – which would explain the references to cultural and military exchanges with the Suel. It also provides a point of contact between Suhfangi mental disciplines and elemental philosophies and similar faiths and lore in the Baklunish lands.
The Vanian Confederation. Bounds of the Oerth tells us that Gargus Rex forged his short lived but extensive empire:
“Long ago, after the magical chaos of the wars to the north ceased much of their activity,”
Which suggests it happened after the Suel-Baklunish War. Gargus Rex seems to have conquered the Hydranian Isles – which the DA1 map says was the home of “Nippon”, which had Dominions to the east of the Slate Mountains. If we accept that DA1 showed the state of play before the Twin Cataclysms – then “Nippon” was conquered by Gargus and was (perhaps briefly) part of the Vanian Confederation. Bounds also says that the lands corresponding to the Dominions:
“supports at least a handful of small nations, though nothing is currently known of the region.”
It also mentions nothing about the Hydranian Isles. Which is curious. Why would these lands be so secretive and unknown, when everywhere else on Oerik, pretty much, is described? Might it be that after the Vanians were driven out the people of the Hydranians became xenophobic and shut their borders to outsiders (not unlike the way that the Japanese did between the 1600’s and the late 1800s?).
St Koal and the Skull Islands – these sound like the perfect places for some of Samwise’s fleeing Toli Suel (see canonfire for details) to have fetched up. The presence of pirate also suggests that there’s active seatrade going on between the lands around the Gargian Gulf/Hydranian Sea/Sea of the Dragon King and points west – Vulzar, Hitaxa and Suhfang.
Slith as a homeland (or at least central base) for Yan-ti seems a good bet, given the presence of Yuan-ti all around the shores of the Pearl Sea.
Now I am tired, so I’ll stop.
But the next thing I’ll be looking at is the south-west of Oerik. Whatever happened to the Empire of Lynn. Did it fall to the hordes of Hitaxa, the olves of Ravilla or does it live on in the empire of Thalos?
P.
But the next thing I’ll be looking at is the south-west of Oerik. Whatever happened to the Empire of Lynn. Did it fall to the hordes of Hitaxa, the olves of Ravilla or does it live on in the empire of Thalos?
Rob Kuntz indicated Lynn was still extant in one of his recent "Castle Maure" adventures. I'm thinking it's an alternate name for somewhere (probably Thalos). Perhaps Lynn is the name of a capital city there.
The Torhoon were the oldest civilization on Oerth. Eight millennia ago their empire, based in fertile river valleys to the south. dominated the continent of Hepmonaland. They were a short-statured, dark-skinned people, much like the modern Touv in appearance. Their colonies extended into the southern Flanaess and the Hydrianian Islands. They invited paper, writing, magic, and a science based on the transmutation of elements. Their architecture included tall, steep ziggurats and many-columned temples. They rose to great heights and, less than a millennium later, they had descended into barbarism. They forgot the meaning of the serpentine letters their ancestors had formulated; they believed the ruins to be the creation of giants and gods. The civilization of the Torhoon was all but forgotten.
The Kersi
The Kersi came on outriggers from the continent of Anakeri, colonizing both Hepmonaland and the southernmost peninsula of Oerik. A tall, handsome people with blue-black skin and hair, the Kersi fled the inhuman Momboddo in great numbers, determined to find a new life for themselves. An intellectual people whose intellect was enhanced by necessity, the Kersi deciphered much of Torhoon science from its ruins, and as they blended with the natives, the region underwent a renaissance of sorts. The Kersi continued to spread, establishing a colony in the Hydrianian Islands, where they first came into contact with colonies of the Suel.
Relations between the Kersi and Suel were peaceful at first, trading goods and knowledge. However, two years before the beginning of the Suloise calendar, the First Protector of the Suel, Aliandor b'Hurn, invaded and conquered much the Kersi colonies, enslaving its people to Suel whims. The Kersi retreated from the expanding Suel empire, having learned to fear the pale-skinned conquerors to the north.
The Olman
The Olman are the native people of Oerik south of the lands of the Suel. They worshipped many gods, but the greatest of their gods in ancient times was the serpent-queen Nagini, called Shekinester by the nagas. In the north of their lands they were to a large part dominated by the Suel, while in the south of their lands they were dominated first by the Torhoon and then by the Kersi, from whom they learned the building impressive ziggurats and other secrets of science and magic. And in between, the nagas and couatls taught them much.
Around two and a half millennia ago, an Olman ruler known as Abrahsarpa fell into the worship of Merrshaulk, a corrupt aspect of the serpent goddess. A strange blessing - most would later call it a curse - was visited upon his lands, as Merrshaulk transformed his people into the serpentine yuan-ti. The neighboring Olman were slaughtered in large numbers by the snake-men, whose god hungered endlessly for blood and souls. In desperation, they looked to other gods to save them. Not to their own gods, who seemed so much like their brother Merrshaulk to be almost collaborators. Not to the gods of the Suel, who after fighting a guerilla war with the yuan-ti for over a decade elected to abandon their Olman subjects to their fate. Instead they called out to the starry heavens to any gods who would hear, using all the magical knowledge at their disposal to make their voices heard.
On another world, the prayers of the Olman met the ears of a race of gods alien to the Oerth, but eager to expand their worshipper base. From across many planes they came: Camazotz, Huhueteotl, Mictlantecuhtli, Tezcatlipoca, Quetzalcoatl, Hurakon, Tlaloc, and others besides. They taught the Olman their strange foreign ways. Some of them proved to be as hungry for blood as Merrshaulk, but the Olman welcomed this, eager to battle the yuan-ti on their own terms.
Yet the yuan-ti, brilliant and crafty as they were, slowly pushed the Olman toward the north. At last, around -1200 CY, the Olman fled across the southern Hellfurnaces into the Amedio Jungle en masse, daring to hope that the volcanic mountains would protect them from the serpentine menace. For a time they were right, and Olman civilization got a chance to recover and grow.
The Zahindi
In the lands the Olman had abandoned, the yuan-ti sneered at the retreating Olman and elected to, for the time being, concentrate on their other human neighbors: the Kersi and Torhoon-descended peoples of the great southern peninsula. They had always been a threat to these folk, but now they concentrated all of their formidable minds on their extermination.
Perhaps they would have succeeded, if not for the intervention of Nagini and her brood. Though the Olman had abandoned them, not the other way around, they regretted that they had allowed Merrshaulk to grow so strong. Nagini, her son Parrafaire, and her consort Jazirian conspire to bind Merrshaulk to his realm in the Abyss and force him into a torpor from which he might never awake. The god Jazirian creates a good-aligned, feathered variant subspecies of yuan-ti who help the humans defend against their evil kin. In gratitude, the southern humans take to worshipping the gods abandoned by the Olman; they become known, collectively, as the Zahindi.
The Rise of the Olman
When the Olman arrived in the Amedio Jungle, there were no populous races in the region. The last race to dominate the area, the Da'hon, had largely vanished shortly after the time of Kyuss. The Olmans, then, were free to build wherever they wished. Most of the great cities in the Amedio were founded during the first great era of the Olman: Tamoachan, Xamaclan, Chetanicatla, Hucanuea, Telaneteculi, Elatalhuihle. In Elatalhuihle, a great observatory was built so that they could study the heavens. Physicians studied herbs and medicines, and sages studied the way of gods and men. The Olman built a network of limestone roads to expediate travel, creating a highway all the way from Tamoachan to Xamaclan. They formalized their system of writing, and poems and epics were composed. They sent great trading canoes into the Azure Sea, colonizing the Olman Islands, the Tilvanot Peninsula, and Hepmonaland. In Hepmonaland, the shy people of the northern forests gave way before the Olman colonists, and great cities were founded on that continent as well: Xuxulieto, Alocotla, Xapatlato, Ichamamna, Cuchuetla, Xanoxetlan, Azatl, Zokil, Tezat, and Xolopeqa.
While the Amedio Olman were reaching heights of trade and prosperity, the Olmans of Hepmonaland walked a different path, developing a civilization honoring the gods of war above all others. When there were no others to fight, they fought one another, honing the art of war against rival clans. At first, the native people of the northern Hepmonaland forest gave easily before them, but eventually they met a people they could not easily defeat: the Kingdom of Kunda.
The people of Kunda were revolted by the bloodthirsty Olman gods, believing them to be aspects of their own hated serpent-god Mayanok. They entered the war with the zeal of fanatics, overwhelming the southern Olman cities. The Olmans fought back, sacrificing men of Kunda on their bloodstained altars.
Approximately -1100 CY, demons from Smaragd, Merrshaulk's lair in the Abyss, managed to infiltrate the priesthood of Tlaloc in the Olman city-states of Alocotla and Xapatlapo, corrupting it into a cult of Merrshaulk. With the ceremonial sacrifice and consumption of a thousand human infants, the pact was sealed, and once again large numbers of Olman people were transformed into yuan-ti.
At around the same time, a plague struck the people of the Amedio, and they began dying out. When, in -1000 CY, Olman of Hepmonaland began fleeing the wrath of the Touv and the yuan-ti brought on by their own folly back to the Amedio Jungle, they found the land almost abandoned, the people an echo of what they had been. They recolonized Tamoachan and the other cities (although they avoided Elatalhuihle by Matreyus Lake, which they believed was cursed), scribing new stories on to the walls.
Vanian influence over Kalaraj would have been relatively brief. As the empire was divided into warring factions, the Kalarajans would have rebelled, throwing off the shackles of the southern invaders. Their culture became insular and xenophobic. They armed themselves against outiders and shut up their homeland from them, trading the spices for which the isles were famed only at strictly controlled ports. Given that the old Kalarajan dominions are unknown, it's possible that they might have reconquered them also - or alternatively that some other fate befell them (I kind of like the Kalarajans trying to restore their lost empire though...).
* Hence the name of the Sea of the Dragon King from the DA1 map.
Reading through the Olman history above - are you positing that the inhabitants of "Mahasarpa" were Olmans or that the Zahindi took over worship of the Olman serpent gods and that they raised the city of Mahasarpa (only to see it destroyed - perhaps by the Suel)?
I must post my take on Zahind where I worked in the Mahasarpa history (though I assumed the Olmans were native to Hepmonaland and/or the Amedio - and attributed less of the history to the actions of gods).
So in this framework, "Nippon" (perhaps Hydrania would be a better name - though that sounds like what the Vanians would have called the isles - so I might default back to my name for it - Kalaraj) would have been peopled by folk descended from Kersi/Torhoon stock.
I don't know how much we are taking from Gygax here (I personally think most of the names need to be changed if not for I.P. then just because they are bunk) the Hydranians I thought were named after the massive Hydra that was kept on the islands drugged. Not sure if I am remembering that correctly or not.
Reading through the Olman history above - are you positing that the inhabitants of "Mahasarpa" were Olmans or that the Zahindi took over worship of the Olman serpent gods and that they raised the city of Mahasarpa (only to see it destroyed - perhaps by the Suel)?
I like the way Rip changed the history of the Olman, although I think it would make the most sense for them to have developed as an island hopping culture that eventually expanded from the isles in between the Amedio and Hepmonaland. Moving to the east they eventually encounter the Torhoon/Touv in Hepmonaland and moving to the west they encounter the Suel/Kersi/Zahindi.
I see the yuan-ti as the primary reason for their fall.
Reading through the Olman history above - are you positing that the inhabitants of "Mahasarpa" were Olmans or that the Zahindi took over worship of the Olman serpent gods and that they raised the city of Mahasarpa (only to see it destroyed - perhaps by the Suel)?
The Mahasarpans were Olman, although their lands were later taken over by the dark-skinned people who dwell in the region today.
Kwint
ps-It is truly sad when a standard latin word (see-you-em) needs to be starred out by the Forums' program!...
Is there a source for the Torhoon other than the adventure "Ex Keraptis *** Amore" in Dungeon 77?...
Not that I'm aware of. Maybe Andy Miller has more ideas, if he's reading this thread.
The only reference you will find to the Torhoon is in "Ex Keraptis Kum Amore" (the misspelling is intentional - lets see if it flies).
I originally put the reference into the adventure and was happy when it got left in. I fully expected it to get edited out as it had no previous canon basis.
The Torhoon were an vague idea from my campaign. I originally pictured them as a race of alien creatures that mated with Hepmonoland folk to create a hybrid race that could survive on Oerth. I envisioned that their offspring sacrificed whatever form they originally held when they bred with mankind. The hybrid Torhoon looked human for the most part but were tall and slim with very long fingers. They had extended canines and long, thin heads (the illustration of the crypt thing in "Ex Keraptis" gives you a very good idea of how gangly they were). They worshipped long-dead or forgotten gods (C’thulhu, Nyarlothotep, Tsathoggua, and the like) and practiced alchemy, forbidden magic, and psionics.
The Torhoon were completely wiped out in -1971 Suloise Dating, almost 2,000 years before the establishment of the Suel Empire. The only listing for that date on my own extensive Greyhawk Timeline is “Devastation of Torhoon.” I never specified much more about the race or their Empire in my campaign though I did place Lovecraftian worship of ancient and forgotten gods in the Bandit Kingdoms near Groskopf, Nyrond near Nessermouth, and in “Ex Keraptis Kum Amore,” as well as a few other scattered locations. I’ve always assumed the Torhoon had colonies or at least established temples in those areas.
I never went into great detail on the race. I never determined how long the Torhoon existed, where they governed (save for the Hepmonland reference), where they originally came from, or what their original form was. Their empire was extensive, though spread very thin, very decadent and bizarre (think Melniborian) and somehow, mysteriously, wiped out overnight. I never decided what kind of devastation wiped them out either.
At least, I haven't yet. Since Chronomancers are a given in my home campaign and have meddled with my PCs before, there's a decent chance I might have more detail on the race someday.
Andy
Similarly, did the Torhoon have anything to do with what ever it is that's scribed on those hills of southern Hepmonaland that scared the hell out of the SB that fetched up there?
P.
I don't know how much we are taking from Gygax here (I personally think most of the names need to be changed if not for I.P. then just because they are bunk) the Hydranians I thought were named after the massive Hydra that was kept on the islands drugged. Not sure if I am remembering that correctly or not.
Yes, the DA1 names are bunk.
And I'm not exactly wild about the drugged Hydra story either - though it could be a distortion by Vanian conquerers who came across a shrine to a slumbering many headed god and started a story that by Suhfangi whispers was transformed into the one above.
I like the way Rip changed the history of the Olman, although I think it would make the most sense for them to have developed as an island hopping culture that eventually expanded from the isles in between the Amedio and Hepmonaland. Moving to the east they eventually encounter the Torhoon/Touv in Hepmonaland and moving to the west they encounter the Suel/Kersi/Zahindi.
I kinda favour the Hepmonaland first option too, but the scheme above is a good way to get around the awkward question of how the Olman got to Hepmonaland in the first place.
And it is strictly in keeping with the written Canon - since 2,000 years is more than enough time for the Olman to set up their civilisation in the Amedio, wander over the Hepmonaland, do the same there and then suffer defeat at the hands of Kunda and retreat back to the Amedio.
Or you could even have them flee all the way to Hepmonaland from the get go, where they'd have had outposts in any case. Or better yet - have the Olman ranging across the entire reach from Zahind to Hepmonaland (as coast huggers at first - hence no mention or evidence of serious Olman activity in the Amedio during D'kana rule) and have Hepmonaland be the point where they start to civilise.
The only thing I might tweak is that the Olman worshipped their gods from the get go (or at least from a get go 3000 before present). Or perhaps the Olman gods despoiled the Olman's original snake goddess when they "discovered" them.
I'm thinking though that it might be better to the Kersi/Zahindi to drive the Olman out of Zahind, rather than Yuan ti. Then the fall of Mahasarpa might have been an Olman curse (the revenge of Tlaloc) or the result of a war against the Suel Imperium (which would get around the whole "not another jungle city brought low by a serpentine curse" factor). That said, if Mahasarpa were Olman, then the Yuan Ti and the Olman may be linked in some sort of way - fated to war eternally.
P.
It was bound together by the draconian legalistic laws of an ancient Suhfangi philosopher, whose teachings where used by the mandarins of the first emperor to organise the new state.
"You, Master Gord, and the little hairy fellow for that matter, are correct in stating that Western metaphysical perceptions are the only conceivable expressions of truth. Five elements there are and always shall be. This was long ago proven by Scholar Thu Kin Boh." - Gary Gygax, "The Five Dragon Bowl."
Perhaps this Thu Kin Boh was your ancient philosopher, too.
About 3,500 years before present, the Suhfangi began to spread north, driven by population pressures to occupy more and more of the subtropical and steppe lands that had traditionally been the home of the nomadic Bakluni and Oeridian peoples. The inevitable wars that followed led to the defeat of the Bakluni and Oerid nomads, sending many thousands fleeing east and west to escape the Suhfangi armies. In Bakluni lore, this is known as the Hegira, when the first Padishah fled across the mountains into the Near West where he forged the disparate Bakluni tribes into an Empire – conquering the Oerids who had long wandered the eastern steppes and plains.
I'm not sure, however, if conflict with the empire of Suhfang really fits the description of Mouqol in the LGG:
"Like Istus, he was neutral in the war between Light and Darkness that precipitated the mythic Hegira; like Geshtai he provided necessities to both sides of the struggle."
That makes it sound like the war between Light and Darkness was a civil war among Bakluni and Bakluni only.
The description of Azor'alq in the LGJ #3 says, "He is first mentioned in the mythic tale of the Hegira, in which he defended the royal family from the minions of Darkness that assailed them in the flight from their defiled homeland across the desolate western mountains. Poets still sing of his courage and strength in battle, naming him the Banisher of Darkness. Philosophers and mystics esteem his purity and call him the Son of Light.... His few remaining paladins seek to emulate the legendary Thousand Immortals by destroying creatures of Darkness (typically fiends and undead)."
Dungeon #104 lists the creatures of darkness as fiends, undead, and evil genies.
Of course, it's very possible that a morally ambiguous civil war became translated into an epic war between Good and Evil as the tale was told and retold over 3000 years, but it sounds like it was a battle between the worshippers of Tharoth the Reaper and the worshippers of Al'Asran (the name of the being who granted the Cup and Talisman, according to Dungeon #104), or between the followers of the elemental princes of good and evil (or both).
The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 85, says, "Dervishes speak of the Prophecy of the Phoenix, the rekindling of war between Good and Evil." Which means that at least the dervishes believe that the war that precipated the Hegira could begin again.
Anyway, it seems clear that the Baklunish had a nation of sorts on the other side of the mountain chain that now marks the western edge of their territory. The land became defiled by war and evil forces and the side loyal to the royal family fled to the east, where they founded the First Dynasty of the Baklunish Empire.
As for the Oeridians, the Seven Kingdoms were contempory with Johydee. If they weren't, as I had assumed, seven Oeridian kingdoms, they might have been seven kingdoms of Suhfang. Johydee was a queen, according to Ivid the Undying, so presumedly the nomadic Oerids had kingdoms.
The Living Greyhawk Journal #3 says, "Before the Oeridians began their migrations into the Flanaess, their race was scattered throughout much of Western Oerik. In the timelost centuries before the Suel and Baklunish empires initiated their terrible conflict, the servants of evil deities held sway over the most prominent Oeridian nation." The question is, were these descendents of the same servants of evil deities who drove the Baklunish east?
The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (page 22) says, "This tale begins more than twelve centuries ago, when Oeridian tribes wandering the central plains of Oerik beyond the Flanaess in the West ewere driven to the east by a series of conflicts that cumulated in the infamous Twin Cataclysms of prehistory... So, 1,235 years ago, began the Great Migrations to which the modern reckoning of the Oeridians is dated."
In OR 1, the Oeridians left the plains of Central Oerik, crossed the Baklunish lands, and settled in the vicinity of Ull until approximately OR 187, when the humanoid mercenaries of the Suel and Baklunish drove most of them into the Flanaess. Queen Johydee lived "in the timelost centuries before the Suel and Baklunish empires initiated their terrible conflict [in OR 160]," but centuries before OR 160 probably isn't millennia before OR 160, especially if the lineage of House Cranden is unbroken from her time to this.
So it seems that the Seven Kingdoms existed, still ununified, within a century or so before OR 1.
It's very possible that the easternmost province of Suhfang was the land that the ancestors of the Baklunish had come from, still corrupted by evil. They had enslaved the most prominent Oeridian nation until Johydee overthrew them. It's equally possible that the "servants of evil deities" had nothing to do with any other people, and were simply a popular evil religion among the Oeridians who Johydee discredited. It's possible they were the Cult of Ebon Flame described in the Book of Artifacts, since Ivid the Undying says the Crystal of Ebon Flame was in Oeridian hands at the time of the Migrations, and implies that the artifact was of Oeridian origins.
"Once the cult was powerful and influential, but so vile were its practices that popular outrage led to the persecution of its followers." - Book of Artifacts, 29.
If you want the Seven Kingdoms to be Suhfangese, there were Seven Kingdoms in the ancient history of Tianguo, the "Heavenly Kingdom" from the Dragonfist RPG that used to be available as a free PDF at wizards.com before Chris Pramas bought the rights to it. Tianguo fits into the geography of Western Oerik only with a lot of effort, though. The story, though, is that Tianguo disintegrated into seven kingdoms after the death of the last of the legendary emperors, warred for "countless generations" before consolidating into three kingdoms about 300 years later, and were finally reunited into a single empire by the crafty King of Ren about 300 years after that.
Khuzkan, by the way, sounds less like Pelor and more like Pholtus.
I agree, but I think I'd rather Khuzkan was a completely seperate deity from either. Personally, I mean. Possibly the same as the monotheistic goddess Taiia from 3rd edition Deities & Demigods.
The sorcerous albinos of Vulzar sound suspiciously Suel.
Oh, definitely.
Behow and Sa’han sound like they should be just west or in the Slate Mountains bordering on Chomur and the Sea of Dust, rather than farther south.
That's what I had assumed from reading Sea of Death, which I believe said those two nations were both west of the Sea of Dust, and I thought it was weird for Behow to be on the wrong side of the mountains, but I thought Erik Mona was saying that Behow was southwest of Chomur, and I decided to try to illustrate Erik's article rather than adding my own impressions. Your interpretation makes a lot more sense, and I like identifying Behow with "Naga."
For what it's worth, here's the quote in Sea of Death, page 133:
"Possibly, folk from the other borders of this waste likewise penetrated at least a little way into the Ashen Desert; the legendary peoples of such fabled states as Changol, Jahind, and Mulwar to the south, and the folk of Sa'han, Behow, and Chomur to the west, were the sort who would dare such activity."
So, really, it should look like this:
This doesn't represent any period in particular. The Suhfang names are from the Dragonfist game, just because I wanted to show some of the early kingdoms and didn't have any other names available.
The "Yi Barbarians" and Oeridians are probably more or less the same people at this period in history, like the Celts and Germanic tribes. The "Ur-Baklun" are a different people, a civilized kingdom in approximately the same area as modern Sa'han.
One Oeridian nation - not the one Johydee liberated - might have been oppressed by a wizard named Virtos, if we're to believe the entry for the Invulnerable Coat of Arnd. The pre-migrations era may also have been called the Age of Veth, if we can trust the entry for Kuroth's Quill. I'm assuming Kuroth was pre-migrations, if only because his quill would have made it so much easier to find all the other artifacts the Oeridians ended up with. Maybe Johydee, Kuroth, and Arnd were an adventuring party.
It's equally possible that the "servants of evil deities" had nothing to do with any other people, and were simply a popular evil religion among the Oeridians who Johydee discredited. It's possible they were the Cult of Ebon Flame described in the Book of Artifacts, since Ivid the Undying says the Crystal of Ebon Flame was in Oeridian hands at the time of the Migrations, and implies that the artifact was of Oeridian origins.
This has always made the most sense to me from the various sources that we have on Johydee and her spawn. Of course then you are dealing with the a very unrealistic pattern of migration from an area so far to the west of the Flanaess or you are assuming that they are talking about a tiny area like Ull before the Twin Cataclysms. Neither of which feels satisfying to me.
One thought that I had about the Olman in Hepmonaland was with respect to the rise of the yuan-ti. Hepmonaland as Oerth's smallest continent suddenly becomes very crowded with racial origins. You have the Torhoon, the Touv (who could just be transplants from Anakeri), the Olman and finally the yuan-ti all springing up here.
I like to think the Touv are simply transplants from somewhere else that arrived long before the Olmans made it off their islands to Hepmonaland. The Olmans burgeoning Empire spread rapidly outward and they settled from the north eventually encountering the Touv. One of their main reasons stated for abandoning Hepmonaland is the rise of the yuan-ti which is supposed to have stemmed from a curse from Tlaloc. I think it makes a lot more sense for this curse (if it did come from their god Tlaloc) to take the form of the creation of the first Ophidians. This solves a couple of problems, firstly it gives a realistic reason for why the 'yuan-ti' spread so fast (it is spread by a bite) and also feels more like a curse from a nonyuan-ti deity. [In fact there would be every reason to believe if this is the case that the high priest of Tlaloc could have simply been the first person cursed in the beginning and it wasn't a mass sacrifice that started it but simply him biting a large group of Olman who were meant to be a sacrifice to Tlaloc but ended up being a large group of Ophidians.]
This also frees up the reasoning for why the yuan-ti show up in both the Amedio and Hepmonaland and gives some diversity to "if it's jungle then there must be yuan-ti" reasoning that is so often used.
I don't suppose they have anything to do with the Tall Walkers sighted on ship[s by southern Hepmonaland? Or are they the Momboddo? Or something else entirely?
Similarly, did the Torhoon have anything to do with what ever it is that's scribed on those hills of southern Hepmonaland that scared the hell out of the SB that fetched up there?
I made no Torhoon connections with any of these. That doesn't mean there couldn't be any though.