Dragon Drain - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Dragon Drain

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Mar 27, 2005 6:58:30 Has anyone ever dealt with level drained dragons or avangions? What would happen?
Normally if the save is failed you lose a level, but the advance being is a physical metamorphosis.

Would you lose class levels and the physical changes, just the levels or what?

Our party is about to get hammered by undead and one of them is an avangion.
#2
jon_oracle_of_athas
Mar 27, 2005 9:14:54 They would lose character levels as per the standard negative energy level rules.
#3
zombiegleemax
Mar 27, 2005 22:10:32 I understand the loss of character levels, but how would this affect the physical changes?

Immortality, spell like abilities, etc...
#4
pringles
Mar 27, 2005 22:27:07 In my campaign, it happened two time. One timewith Kalak and his transformation and one time when the PC were in the Dragon levy of Nibenay. I use Constitution and strengh lost
#5
Pennarin
Mar 28, 2005 3:08:17 I'm not sure what happens to a character with full progression in a 10th level transformational PrC - such as alienist, acolyte of the skin, and dragon disciple - that loses levels from level drain.

One could argue the change in the character's type, and associated abilities, is directly linked with the level in question.
The case can also be made that such a change is permanent and that after being trusted upon the character, ceases to be linked to the level in question, and thus cannot be removed through level drain.
#6
jon_oracle_of_athas
Mar 28, 2005 7:19:04 In the case of Dragons, the *physical* metamorphosis is the result of 10 epic level spells, so that would not be affected by level drain.
#7
objulen
Mar 28, 2005 12:18:50
In the case of Dragons, the *physical* metamorphosis is the result of 10 epic level spells, so that would not be affected by level drain.

The question, to me, is whether or not the Dragon/Avangion abilities are core parts of the creature in question or learned abilties. Level drain affects the latter, but not the former -- if you level a drain a wizard, we all know what happens, but Illithid don't lose mind blast when you Energy Drain them for four levels and they fail their saving throws.

However, on further analysis, this becomes a non-issue, since under Savage Species rules, that ECL 15 Mind Flayer PC would simply be Energy Drained down its Savage Progression to ECL 11. So even if the epic 10 level Dragon/Avangion transformation is treated like a monster class, it would still follow the same rules. There wouldn't be a physical change, but there would be a marked reduction in power until the character in question could heal the damage. Simple, conscise, and to the point.
#8
seker
Mar 28, 2005 13:01:22 I cannot give you full details as we have not released the dragon metamorphosis yet from Athas.org. But as several of us in the epic bureau have let people know already in various posts. The Dragon metamorphosis is going to be in 2 parts.... the physical changes are a series of 10 spells and would not be affected at all by level drain. However if the character has levels in the dragon prestige class then yes those levels could concievably be lost through level drain. (prestige class controls psionic enchantments, caster/manifester level, and such)
#9
lyric
Mar 29, 2005 15:09:23 I say they have horded so much life energy that a simple little energy drain won't affect them as easily as other creatures.. I like the idea that it attacks their Con instead, doing temporary or permenent damage until healed... I'd go with that.. Otherwise, a low level undead with a quiet shuffle could cause serious havok to AB's... not in my campaign buddy :P
#10
Pennarin
Mar 29, 2005 15:31:31 I think Xlorep's old Champion of Rajaat template had them immune to energy drain.

Oh yes, here you are:
Immunities (Su): A Champion of Rajaat has the following immunities. Unless otherwise indicated, these immunities do not apply if the attacker is another Champion of Rajaat, or Rajaat himself.
o Transmutation: A Champion is immune to polymorphing, petrification or any other attack that alters his form. Any shape-altering powers the Champion might have work normally on himself.
o Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage: A Champion is nut subject to energy drain, ability drain or ability damage. This includes the draining effects of Dragon Magic (unless the individual using the Dragon Magic and targetting the Champion is also a Champion).
o Champions of Rajaat are immune to disease and poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis and death effects, disintegration, and effects that imprison or banish them.

#11
lyric
Mar 29, 2005 17:27:34 which makes sense, since they seemed to be immune to the mutational qualities of the area around the pristine tower.. unless that effect didn't exist at that time..
#12
objulen
Mar 29, 2005 18:03:14 There's also the option of running the alternative version of a natural 1 and natural 20 from Unearthed Arcana, where a natrual 1 = -10 and a natural 20 = 30. The rule only really matters when you have very high characters (basically, epics) facing off against a horde of very low characters, but it keeps a zergling rush of lowbies from doing something like giving a Sorcerer King 35 negative levels from lucky 20s.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Mar 27, 2005 6:58:30	Has anyone ever dealt with level drained dragons or avangions? What would happen? Normally if the save is failed you lose a level, but the advance being is a physical metamorphosis. Would you lose class levels and the physical changes, just the levels or what? Our party is about to get hammered by undead and one of them is an avangion.
#2 jon_oracle_of_athas Mar 27, 2005 9:14:54	They would lose character levels as per the standard negative energy level rules.
#3 zombiegleemax Mar 27, 2005 22:10:32	I understand the loss of character levels, but how would this affect the physical changes? Immortality, spell like abilities, etc...
#4 pringles Mar 27, 2005 22:27:07	In my campaign, it happened two time. One timewith Kalak and his transformation and one time when the PC were in the Dragon levy of Nibenay. I use Constitution and strengh lost
#5 Pennarin Mar 28, 2005 3:08:17	I'm not sure what happens to a character with full progression in a 10th level transformational PrC - such as alienist, acolyte of the skin, and dragon disciple - that loses levels from level drain. One could argue the change in the character's type, and associated abilities, is directly linked with the level in question. The case can also be made that such a change is permanent and that after being trusted upon the character, ceases to be linked to the level in question, and thus cannot be removed through level drain.
#6 jon_oracle_of_athas Mar 28, 2005 7:19:04	In the case of Dragons, the physical metamorphosis is the result of 10 epic level spells, so that would not be affected by level drain.
#7 objulen Mar 28, 2005 12:18:50	In the case of Dragons, the physical metamorphosis is the result of 10 epic level spells, so that would not be affected by level drain. The question, to me, is whether or not the Dragon/Avangion abilities are core parts of the creature in question or learned abilties. Level drain affects the latter, but not the former -- if you level a drain a wizard, we all know what happens, but Illithid don't lose mind blast when you Energy Drain them for four levels and they fail their saving throws. However, on further analysis, this becomes a non-issue, since under Savage Species rules, that ECL 15 Mind Flayer PC would simply be Energy Drained down its Savage Progression to ECL 11. So even if the epic 10 level Dragon/Avangion transformation is treated like a monster class, it would still follow the same rules. There wouldn't be a physical change, but there would be a marked reduction in power until the character in question could heal the damage. Simple, conscise, and to the point.
#8 seker Mar 28, 2005 13:01:22	I cannot give you full details as we have not released the dragon metamorphosis yet from Athas.org. But as several of us in the epic bureau have let people know already in various posts. The Dragon metamorphosis is going to be in 2 parts.... the physical changes are a series of 10 spells and would not be affected at all by level drain. However if the character has levels in the dragon prestige class then yes those levels could concievably be lost through level drain. (prestige class controls psionic enchantments, caster/manifester level, and such)
#9 lyric Mar 29, 2005 15:09:23	I say they have horded so much life energy that a simple little energy drain won't affect them as easily as other creatures.. I like the idea that it attacks their Con instead, doing temporary or permenent damage until healed... I'd go with that.. Otherwise, a low level undead with a quiet shuffle could cause serious havok to AB's... not in my campaign buddy :P
#10 Pennarin Mar 29, 2005 15:31:31	I think Xlorep's old Champion of Rajaat template had them immune to energy drain. Oh yes, here you are: Immunities (Su): A Champion of Rajaat has the following immunities. Unless otherwise indicated, these immunities do not apply if the attacker is another Champion of Rajaat, or Rajaat himself. o Transmutation: A Champion is immune to polymorphing, petrification or any other attack that alters his form. Any shape-altering powers the Champion might have work normally on himself. o Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage: A Champion is nut subject to energy drain, ability drain or ability damage. This includes the draining effects of Dragon Magic (unless the individual using the Dragon Magic and targetting the Champion is also a Champion). o Champions of Rajaat are immune to disease and poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis and death effects, disintegration, and effects that imprison or banish them.
#11 lyric Mar 29, 2005 17:27:34	which makes sense, since they seemed to be immune to the mutational qualities of the area around the pristine tower.. unless that effect didn't exist at that time..
#12 objulen Mar 29, 2005 18:03:14	There's also the option of running the alternative version of a natural 1 and natural 20 from Unearthed Arcana, where a natrual 1 = -10 and a natural 20 = 30. The rule only really matters when you have very high characters (basically, epics) facing off against a horde of very low characters, but it keeps a zergling rush of lowbies from doing something like giving a Sorcerer King 35 negative levels from lucky 20s.