Second:What statistics would you give Mortal Takhisis? I was thinking 2nd level rogue, maybe 2nd level rogue/1st level noble. Low-level, but what would you think would recreate the feel right?
Third:I know she's dead, so don't tell me.
First:If you are ultamitely perfectly canon... This is not the thread for you.
Second:What statistics would you give Mortal Takhisis? I was thinking 2nd level rogue, maybe 2nd level rogue/1st level noble. Low-level, but what would you think would recreate the feel right?
Third:I know she's dead, so don't tell me.
Like Fizban, I just use Tiamat's nondivine stats.
She's the Five Headed dragon, just in human form. Had she survived she'd be a menace to all of Krynn.
20th level Blackguard, 20th level Wizard, and 20th level Cleric.
I know we disagree on just how much the gods lost but I thought I'd state this. I don't believe the gods are strating from "scratch" with their knowledge.
Also, I want a party of below 30th level to be able to beat her. It's not important that it's challenging, just that it's possible.
I kinda have to side more with Thrune on this matter. Being stripped of godly powers and title doesn't mean you automagically become a demigod or super uber mortal either. Your mortal. Dragons aren't typically lumped into the category of mortal races either, even though they are mortal (albeit VERY long lived though)...
I don't think they are super mortals either. This merely reflects the immensity of their knowledge in my opinion.
Besides, Takhasis wouldn't be that formidable to begin with. Her main advantages would be her five heads.
Nuitari wouldn't grant her magic nor any of the gods clerical spells.
I don't think they are super mortals either. This merely reflects the immensity of their knowledge in my opinion.
Besides, Takhasis wouldn't be that formidable to begin with. Her main advantages would be her five heads.
Nuitari wouldn't grant her magic nor any of the gods clerical spells.
Except that dragons are innately magical, so as a dragon, she wouldn't need powers granted from the arcane or divine gods. I guess I see a 60th odd level character as being nigh unto a demi-god at that point in terms of experience, and physical ability, if not in title. 60th level is just waaaay to high IMHO. As for their knowledge, as Cam pointed out, the majority of their knowledge and cosmic awareness was stripped from them along with their place in the pantheons. They don't have anywhere near the level of knowledge they used to possess.
I don't think they are super mortals either. This merely reflects the immensity of their knowledge in my opinion.
Well, unfortunately it also makes them immensely powerful epic-level characters who can conquer nations, and while that might be a specific design goal I think it's best to make them truly mortal and not tiny gods with uber-stats.
Nobody on Krynn has 60 levels in classes. I would be very, very surprised to know of anybody with more than 30 in the history of the setting.
Cheers,
Cam
Well, unfortunately it also makes them immensely powerful epic-level characters who can conquer nations, and while that might be a specific design goal I think it's best to make them truly mortal and not tiny gods with uber-stats.
Nobody on Krynn has 60 levels in classes. I would be very, very surprised to know of anybody with more than 30 in the history of the setting.
Cheers,
Cam
I understand Cam, I do note though that Paladine I think SHOULD be able to conquer nations if he was so inclined....thus the death of Takhasis was necessary to save Krynn.
that is their true forms, not the tiny ones they take.
Largely, I just want to think of Takhasis as the Five Headed Dragon and Paladine as the Platnium Dragon.
that is their true forms, not the tiny ones they take.
I think that is the problem though. When they became mortal, they weren't given a choice, or the ability to change forms, or were granted a egregious amount of exp levels. It was a punishment for an unforgivable crime against the pantheon and the world of Krynn, not a slap on the wrist with a mere reduction in power. The fact that Paladine is mortal is a testament to his nobility. He accepted the nature of the balance, and knew that Takhisis needed to be punished severely, so he agreed to lose his status as a god as well, knowing he would be stripped of his immortality, his power, knowledge, followers, wife (Mishakal), basically almost everything he ever knew and did, all for the sake of the balance.
How about a low level character class with "above average" points in things like knowledge religion, diplomacy and a few others. Perhaps boost individual skills rather than make the mortal gods super powerful. This way, you can still have them be extremely knowledgable, but not over the top powerful.
Thanks. I like that idea a good bit. I think I'll use it.
Would it be possible for her to return to godhood?
There are several situations brought up elsewhere, I don't think any of them are possible but they might be. Some of them are pretty wild.
-The High God restores her to godhood. I don't see why, but he might.
-She somehow changes her shape and persuades one of the other gods to try to promote her to godhood. I don't see how she can fool them, but it's possible.
-She takes over the body of a dragon and becomes the next best thing to a god:A Dragon Overlord. Didn't Malys almost become a God when she was a Dragon Overlord?
-There is some situation that only she can solve among the Gods.
Thanks. I like that idea a good bit. I think I'll use it.
Would it be possible for her to return to godhood?
Well, overlooking the being dead thing (which we are as per your request at the start of the thread
) It's possible, though not quite plausible. If an extreme chain of events were to happen in her favor, it might work. The problem is, even if it did, the pantheon could just decide "hey, your not supposed to be back here!" and bam, she's mortal again.There are several situations brought up elsewhere, I don't think any of them are possible but they might be. Some of them are pretty wild.
-The High God restores her to godhood. I don't see why, but he might.
-She somehow changes her shape and persuades one of the other gods to try to promote her to godhood. I don't see how she can fool them, but it's possible.
-She takes over the body of a dragon and becomes the next best thing to a god:A Dragon Overlord. Didn't Malys almost become a God when she was a Dragon Overlord?
-There is some situation that only she can solve among the Gods.
I think the 3rd occasion has the best chance of those listed. It's possible for her to take over the body of a dragon with ALOT of prep and materials. Then, she might be able to conduct the ritual that Malys was attempting in order to ascend to godhood again. Trick is keeping all that low key so as not to attract the 'do-gooders' that would try to foil her, not to mention the gods taking her power away again even if she was successful.
It could happen...
Of course the hard part would be that you'ed have to find the essence of Takhisis, that has likely long passed into the Gray. Much like what Kitaria, she's lost within the infiniate multiverse. The only way I see her comming back, is if some really powerful allies use powerful spells to search the planes and find her, which likey won't happen. Takasis is hated by everyone now, and no one in their right mind would want her to come back. The Dark Knights hate her abandoning them, turning inward with Mystism. Mina has sold her soul to Chemosh, and is now a Vampire, and dosen't care for her old queen, with the new lord that she serves. So basically I don't see Takasis comming back, she's dead, end of story.
I think Thrune was asking us to look past that though. Sort of a 'what if' she didn't die, do you think she could ascend to godhood again. Of course, the fact that she's dead does kind of put a rather largish crimp in any plans.
That, and the gods declared at some point (IIRC) that anyone who desecrates the final resting place of Tak would provoke the gods into creating the final cataclysm to utterly destroy Krynn. Quite an effective deterrant. Of course the hard part would be that you'ed have to find the essence of Takhisis, that has likely long passed into the Gray. Much like what Kitaria, she's lost within the infiniate multiverse. The only way I see her comming back, is if some really powerful allies use powerful spells to search the planes and find her, which likey won't happen. Takasis is hated by everyone now, and no one in their right mind would want her to come back. The Dark Knights hate her abandoning them, turning inward with Mystism. Mina has sold her soul to Chemosh, and is now a Vampire, and dosen't care for her old queen, with the new lord that she serves. So basically I don't see Takasis comming back, she's dead, end of story.
Um... True Ressurection isn't canon? Where has that been written?
That, and the gods declared at some point (IIRC) that anyone who desecrates the final resting place of Tak would provoke the gods into creating the final cataclysm to utterly destroy Krynn. Quite an effective deterrant.
My campaign isn't perfectly canon, so no 'final cataclysm' going to happen if someone desecrates her tomb. She is a mortal, so she is a mortal. However, the traps are roughly CR 16-18.
Somewhere out there Takhisis is alive and well, plotting not only her return to power and glory, but her revenge as well. Mina I believe would be first on the list to be blasted to the abyss. Paladine would be next and then all hell would break loose. Though she may be hated, I am quite sure she'd have no problems gaining followers again over a period of time.
And if you want her to be alive why didnt she have a plan B and now shes ready to be reborn, as a Dracolich using tiamat non divine stats !
Why do you want to make her a human, she was a dragon in the first place, so if shes alive she should be a dragon, a five headed dragon.
And if you want her to be alive why didnt she have a plan B and now shes ready to be reborn, as a Dracolich using tiamat non divine stats !
The 5 headed dragon was one of her avatar forms, and the one she used most often. She also had the forms of the seductress, and the dark warrior, so nothing is set in stone as far as the 5 headed dragon. She is most commonly associated with that form, but it is not her only form, so IMHO she shouldn't be pidgeon holed to that one form.
The same reason Paladine took an elven form when he became mortal. Not the platinum dragon, not the holy warrior, not even Fizban.
The other thing to consider is that dragons can wreak alotta havoc, and a former god, albeit an EXTREMELY irate one, even in a dragon form, means ALOT of trouble. Takhisis' being stripped of her place in the pantheon, was a punishment. Giving her the use of a dragon body wouldn't quite push the point that she was being punished all that severely IMHO. I think the decision to put her in a human form was right on. Course that's my opinion.
My ideas:
- Maybe they could have like 15-20 levels (depends how powerful god/goddess - so both Takhisis and Paladin are about 20th level)
- No clerical levels. They probably don't like to workship any other god and definitely can't give themselfs any powers.
- As Cleric, probably Druid or Bard levels won't do either (in Krynn those must serve gods to gain spells).
- Paladin and Ranger with spells maybe suitable. Say they have enough inner-power to produce they spells (on the other hand, then you can argue above things also).
- Sorcerer and Mystic works VERY well.
- Wizard. Well, they wont workship other gods, so would they be bold enough to become renegades?
- Marines, Master, Barbarians and Fighters do fine.
- Noble. I think all gods should have some degree of Noble levels.
Takhisis: Maybe Noble5/Fighter5/Mystic5/Sorcerer5
The warrior and the seductress are avatar forms, she Is a dragon, she is the dragon of all colors and of none Pag.197 DLCS
Then Paladine should be a platinum dragon (not an elf or even Fizban), Zeboim should be a giant sea turtle, Sargonnas should be a giant vulture (etc) all the time since those are their only forms since that IS what they are? My point is, she has several forms, she can be in any one of them. All of that is irrelevant though, since I seriously doubt the pantheon would want to give her a powerful dragon body to go rampaging around the countryside in. A 5 headed dragon with all the powers of each respective chromatic dragon in one body? Giving Tak access to that form would be kinda like a slap on the wrist after the stuff Tak did to screw over the Pantheon and the world at large. Forcing her into a human form? THAT's punishment. Mortal, short lifespan, and no overwhelming innate strength or power to draw from.
Remember, she was punished, not given options, nor a mere reduction in power by being put in a greater dragon form or given the stats of a demi-god.
Also, on the prime material plane, the gods are hard pressed to assume their 'true' forms (unless it was an effigy of some sort, like a sign) without some kind of ritual or what not. That's why Tak was only ever to take her 5 headed dragon form on the face of Krynn once- when Huma nearly killed her (she was in 'quasi' dragon form at the height of the war of lance, since she was incorporeal and not able to enter the world fully at that point IIRC).
I think mortal gods should have high levels just because the knowledge of things (They have lived LONG). BUT because they are no longer gods, they should be stripped from levels also (no 60th level mortal characters).
My ideas:
- Maybe they could have like 15-20 levels (depends how powerful god/goddess - so both Takhisis and Paladin are about 20th level)
- No clerical levels. They probably don't like to workship any other god and definitely can't give themselfs any powers.
- As Cleric, probably Druid or Bard levels won't do either (in Krynn those must serve gods to gain spells).
- Paladin and Ranger with spells maybe suitable. Say they have enough inner-power to produce they spells (on the other hand, then you can argue above things also).
- Sorcerer and Mystic works VERY well.
- Wizard. Well, they wont workship other gods, so would they be bold enough to become renegades?
- Marines, Master, Barbarians and Fighters do fine.
- Noble. I think all gods should have some degree of Noble levels.
Takhisis: Maybe Noble5/Fighter5/Mystic5/Sorcerer5
I like it. The only exception might be in the sorcerer levels, since Tak would have to draw on the magic of chaos in the world, which as her past as a god fighting that same force, might be anathema to her. Maybe bump up her mystic and/or fighter levels?
She wasnt punished, it was an agreement to make her mortal and by that kill her, and if you are about to leave an ex-god trapped in the world i think that i'll be good idea to give them good lvls, if you want your players to beat down an important figure with lvls in noble and comoner give them the blacksmith not taki, she deserves some respect, after all it was her the one who helped the one god to create the world :P .
Well the thing is that she Is a dragons and paladine Is a dragon too, and the others arent specified as dragons in the DLCS, you should be explaining why they are humanoids now, i think paladine will do that to fit in the world.
Paladine and Takhisis aren't dragons. They're gods. One of their chosen forms in iconography and in manifestations is a dragon, in each case, but they aren't super-powerful godlike dragons like Bahamut and Tiamat are.
Cheers,
Cam
Paladine and Takhisis aren't dragons. They're gods. One of their chosen forms in iconography and in manifestations is a dragon, in each case, but they aren't super-powerful godlike dragons like Bahamut and Tiamat are.
Cheers,
Cam
Ok im confused now Cam, dragonlance, a world of dragons, with dragon gods , the first sons of gods, dragons, corrupted by takhisis in her own image, takhisis killed by a dragonlance, how could she get killed by a dragonlance if shes not a dragon in the first place, why corrupt them as her dragon image if shes not a dragon himself, why to have a constellation in the form of a dragon if you are not a dragon, why to be called the king or the queen of wyrms if you are not a dragon, why to be something else than a dragon if the other races were created after your arrival to the show, and at last, why not to be a dragon if you are called the queen of wyrms takhisis the dragon of all colors and none in the DLCS?
:OMG!
Look at it this way. Do you think the Judeo-Christian god is a big human living in the sky?
Cheers,
Cam
Her dragon form, the form of the five-headed dragon is, to me, an embodiment of her corruption. She took the dragons and twisted them into something evil. Now, she flaunts that by taking the form of a five-headed dragon, a symbol of great physical power, magical power, and corruption.
She is not the Queen of Wyrms because she actually is one, but because she stole them and corrupted them and now they fear and respect her as their lord. Paladine is the King of Wyrms because he created them, and they respect him as their lord.
Though I wouldn't presume to speak for Cam
Hey, you nailed it anyway. So thanks.
Cheers,
Cam
My question is why do you say shes not a dragon?, with all this "clues" im very confused because you are the guy whos writing the AoM campaign and im just a dude that read the novels and the campaing setting, i mean you cant be wrong about something like this, but why not?, or where can i find that part of the history, they are gods but they have forms as long as i know, they are not the nirvana or anything like that, they are epic fantasy icons and they are too many thing pointing to her being a dragon, and there is the fact that this is D&D and she must have a especific form:
-Killed by a dragonlance, this is the most confusing fact, she got killed by a dragonlance wielded by a noble, if it wasnt the dragonlance...?
-Called the queen of wyrms, the dragon of all colors and none in the setting
-She corrupting the first dragons at her image, as chromatic dragons.
-She materializing as a 5 headed dragon in the novels when the bad guys were trying to get her into the world.
-Being marked in the sky by a dragon constellation.
-Her religion having a holy simbol of a star with the five colors of the dragons.
-Why not to be a dragon if the other races were created after.
-She must have a physic form in order to be killed, an especific form, and if she got killed by a dragonlance, forged with dragon metal, with dragon bane stats, with divine instruction to be the doom of evil dragons, i cant figure her out as a snail, a panda or something else, better than figure, where does it says that she is Not a dragon, because the whole thing points her as one, the big one.
Though I wouldn't presume to speak for Cam, I think the point here is that one of their many chosen forms is that of a dragon. Takhisis showed up in the novels in a variety of forms, the five-headed dragon, the dark seductress, the dark warrior. Paladine was often shown in the guise of Fizban, a bumbling old mage. Though the page you cite from the DLCS calls her the Dragon of All Colors and of None, page 260 calls her the Queen of Darkness. Instead of being referred to as the queen of dragons, she is called the embodiment of all that is evil. The only reference to dragons in her entire description is that they are the only creatures on Krynn that she respects.
Her dragon form, the form of the five-headed dragon is, to me, an embodiment of her corruption. She took the dragons and twisted them into something evil. Now, she flaunts that by taking the form of a five-headed dragon, a symbol of great physical power, magical power, and corruption.
She is not the Queen of Wyrms because she actually is one, but because she stole them and corrupted them and now they fear and respect her as their lord. Paladine is the King of Wyrms because he created them, and they respect him as their lord.
I dont think that she had many forms as you point it, i think that the human forms were representations because human were created by her and the other gods before her appareance as a human, and you cant be taken as a misterious sorcerer if you have 5 dragons heads inside your cloak, as a very kind creature looking as a dragon in the age where dragons were feared without looking at their colors, or as a very sexy woman if you have a tail and you are full of scales, she must have an original form, and if she got killed by a dragonlance she cant be a troll.
The campaing setting says "corrupts this five dragons, tarnishing their metals and creating five chromatic dragons in her own image", and yeah, shes called the queen of darkness in other parts of the book, but you cant expect to be named by your entire name all the time.
And he doesnt stole the dragons, she were there at their creation and when no one were looking she corrupt them :P
Edit: some typos, this is the only place where i use english, so escuse me if i seem to be speaking as tarzan or a viking :P
What I did want to get across was the idea that the gods aren't superhuman individuals, whether dragon or humanoid. They're something else, and this will be properly handled in the sourcebook.
Cheers,
Cam
Neuro, I apologize for being rather obtuse and vague about this subject. It is explained and dealt with in the upcoming Holy Orders of the Stars sourcebook, which I contributed to. I didn't want to spoil any major revelations, although I suppose they're not so much revelations as things that are properly explained for the first time in 3rd edition rules. This includes what the physical form in the material world represents, what Huma was capable of doing and why Takhisis was concerned about it, and so on.
What I did want to get across was the idea that the gods aren't superhuman individuals, whether dragon or humanoid. They're something else, and this will be properly handled in the sourcebook.
Cheers,
Cam
I will look for that day ^^ thanks Cam.
Well the thing is that she Is a dragons and paladine Is a dragon too, and the others arent specified as dragons in the DLCS, you should be explaining why they are humanoids now, i think paladine will do that to fit in the world.
She wasnt punished, it was an agreement to make her mortal and by that kill her, and if you are about to leave an ex-god trapped in the world i think that i'll be good idea to give them good lvls, if you want your players to beat down an important figure with lvls in noble and comoner give them the blacksmith not taki, she deserves some respect, after all it was her the one who helped the one god to create the world :P .
But she was punished, she didn't agree to become mortal.
The other gods in the pantheon made that decision for her, as punishment for stealing the world from them and keeping it hidden for almost a half century. If she wasn't killed outright by Silvanoshei, she probably would have had a large group of supporters following her around similar to Paladine, so IF someone wanted to kill her, they would have to go through her followers in order to get to her, and I'm sure she would have no qualms about using followers as meat shields. 'Course all that is a moot point since she's dead. Reorx created the world, Tak, Paladine and Gilean created the first races to populate it (ogres, elves and humans respectfully) The one god sorta summoned the gods together and established the rule of balance, after that, he kinda left well enough alone IIRC...
'Course all that is a moot point since she's dead.
And not "Bane was in the shower the whole time and Cyric came in and found him" dead. More along the lines of "Ariakas got a sword in the gut, thanks Tanis" dead.
Cheers,
Cam
And not "Bane was in the shower the whole time and Cyric came in and found him" dead. More along the lines of "Ariakas got a sword in the gut, thanks Tanis" dead.
Cheers,
Cam
Oye, got a 'Dallas' flashback there. :D
Now the dragonlance thing... well, writers do nor stick to D&D rules when writing, in fact game disgners MUST explain writers doing (like khellendros dying with a lighninbolt and divine retribution spell). They don't get too complicated with hit die and stuff, in real world if u get impaled by a heavy lance probably u won't make it (specially a magical one, though we don't have one of those in real world, but think i mede my point clear).
1) Why Takhisis as mortal woman when she's made mortal?
Well, if she does have a true form that is something other than human (and likely more powerful) what is the worst punishment? Making her something weak and short lived. Make her human, because of all the forms she takes, a human one is the weakest.
2) Why kill her with the dragonlance?
I suspect that the magical properties of the dragonlance had little to do with her death. She's MORTAL. A sword in the gut would have done it just as well. A disease could have killed her! I think the reason why a dragonlance was chosen was for the symbolism. Huma chased her back into the abyss with a dragonlance. He never killed her, though. I think it fitting that the instrument of her death was the very thing forged to kill her children (chromatic dragons).
If you don't want to resort to the dragon "fallback"... how about making Tak a 20th-level Irda noble (that is, an Irda with 20 noble class levels)? It makes a certain kind of sense, in that Paladine came back as an elf... plus she'd have an immense wealth of knowledge (high skill points + high Int bonus) and be quite skilled at ordering others around.
Even if Takhisis was left alive as a Dragon, human or whatever, her life expectancy is nil. Remember, Nuitari was very, very irate over his mother first granting magic to the Thorn Knights and second, stealing the world at the conclusion of the chaos war. When you look at it this way, the moment Takhisis was stripped of her Godhood and made mortal, Nuitari would know this as he was there with the rest of the Gods so if Takhisis hadn't been killed in the manner she was, Nuitari would have seen to it she was obliterated.
Ok, here's something else to consider.....
Even if Takhisis was left alive as a Dragon, human or whatever, her life expectancy is nil. Remember, Nuitari was very, very irate over his mother first granting magic to the Thorn Knights and second, stealing the world at the conclusion of the chaos war. When you look at it this way, the moment Takhisis was stripped of her Godhood and made mortal, Nuitari would know this as he was there with the rest of the Gods so if Takhisis hadn't been killed in the manner she was, Nuitari would have seen to it she was obliterated.
Yup, Nuitari would have been pretty peeved with her, but he couldn't do her in himself, he'd have to send one of his followers after her. If gods had the ability to kill people on the prime material plane, the heroes of the lance would have been killed off long before they got to old age (most of them anyway), Raistlin wouldn't have challenged Tak, since she would have killed him for betraying her at the climax of the war of the lance, etc etc.
How long Tak would have lived would have been an interesting thing to bet on. No doubt, she would have a group of sycophants following her around to do her bidding, however there would probably be people around that she scorned that would want to settle up with her in the name of revenge (and Sargonnas would probably love that.
)Also Takhisis was probably throughly mortal if for no other reason that the gods laid upon her the 'Judgement of The Book' and The Book was the very thing that binded the gods together and brought structure to what they did and to the world. In fact the book contained the writings of The Highgod so in a sense The Highgod judged Takhisis and the gods just carried it out.
Regarding gods themselves and their nature, I'm curious as to just what is the problem with understanding how they work and exist from a statistical poitn of view? It's not just for munchkins. As a Dm and a world designer, I actually enjoy seeing concrete representations of how the gods stack up against one another and against their game world. I felt that the god rules for the FR books and other books did a good job of this and there are other books out there that also bring 'stats' to the gods.
Why is there no problem with this? Beacuse D&D gods are /not/ all knowing, ominpotent, indestructable beings. If anything, Dragonlance's portrayal of deities helped to further establish this fact. D&D gods are more like mythological gods and figures such as Greek/Roman, Norse, and so forth in which they are mighty and powerful 'beings' and 'spirits' but they are not indestructable and are often challenged, out done, and out witted by legendary heroic figures. It's part of the appeal 'of' fantasy. That the mightiest beings in the cosmos can be defeated, through circumstances and through heroic actions.
Regarding gods themselves and their nature, I'm curious as to just what is the problem with understanding how they work and exist from a statistical poitn of view? It's not just for munchkins. As a Dm and a world designer, I actually enjoy seeing concrete representations of how the gods stack up against one another and against their game world. I felt that the god rules for the FR books and other books did a good job of this and there are other books out there that also bring 'stats' to the gods.
The solution we came up with in Holy Orders of the Stars addresses the multiple and often conflicting viewpoints about the nature of the gods in a way that should, hopefully, allow a DM to make use of the gods in a real and concrete manner without actually forcing each god into a set of D&D statistics.
Cheers,
Cam
I can't wait to get my grubby hands on the book personally. I'm sure whatever solution has been determined will be satisfactory.I was mainly commenting on the feeling of anxiety when people mention stats/gods/abilities for gods in any form. I /personally/ don't have a problem with it only because of the concept of D&D gods as beings with limitations and from the perspective of a world designer.
I have statted out my 'deities' before using different methods (D&D isn't the end all be all method. There are some other great systems that let you simulate it withotu getting all convoluted.) not to have my players be able to kill them but because it provided an additional sense of structure, limitations, and comparisions for the world. I liked knowing and being able to describe/say that (the appearence of 'x' god in this region in full manifestation creates 'x' effect in a 59 mile radius) and so forth. I realize that I could also just as easily come up with an arbitrary number as I see fit but I'm the type of person that just 'enjoys' reading entry blocks and understanding how they stack against one another.
But end rant. Whatever I do personally doesn't change the fact that I'm positive Holy Order of the Stars will address the Dragonlance deities in the best possible way.
Like Fizban, I just use Tiamat's nondivine stats.
She's the Five Headed dragon, just in human form. Had she survived she'd be a menace to all of Krynn.
20th level Blackguard, 20th level Wizard, and 20th level Cleric.
I know we disagree on just how much the gods lost but I thought I'd state this. I don't believe the gods are strating from "scratch" with their knowledge.
Thakisis might come back in mortal form in future novels...as good. Ariaken is in a Khas piece so who knows. Raistlin was alive in spirit form in War of Souls. This is sounding like Mortal Kombat where no one really dies they just come back because of some circumstance like souls being trapped/controlled, etc.
Tak took the form of a multiheaded dragon, and Paladine a platinum dragon, but they weren't dragons, they were gods. The forms they assumed as gods have nothing to do with their true essences. Dragons have a great historical and mythological significance on Krynn, which is probably why those forms were chosen.
Now they are mortal. Silvanoshei is an elf, not a platinum dragon. The balance must be preserved. To make Tak a dragon... well, it wouldn't be fair.
Now they are mortal. Silvanoshei is an elf, not a platinum dragon. The balance must be preserved. To make Tak a dragon... well, it wouldn't be fair.
Silvanoshei is a corpse. Valthonis is an elf, not a platinuum dragon.
When Paladine became "mortal", Tak was already in a human form. So when she became mortal, she became mortal in "that" body. The thing is, she *might* have been able to change into a different form, BUT she was so shocked that Paladine actually went through with "ritual" and she didn't have time to change. That is just a "possible" idea.
I believe Paladine could have chosen a different body. I really believe he had the option to become a mortal in any form he chose, be that Dragon, Elf (which is what he became), Kender, etc. I say this, because as many have said they can/could change into anything they wanted too. But if he had taken the form of a mortal dragon....well, then Tak would have probably been given the option of taking a dragon form too (if she had had the time to think of it before she got scewered). All because of the balance. For the most part elves and humans are roughly equal (when it comes to mortal races and such). So it was not "Balance" breaking for her to get stuck in a human form.
Just some thoughts. Hope they help.
Paladine, I think would have taken the elf form still, if for no other reason than he wouldn't want to take a dragon form, but one where the mortal races might be more inclined to trust in him, befriend him, or at least not revile him. That, and it's the form of the race he himself created with the belief that they would be the ideal race and force of good on Krynn.
I've always seen Irda as good, or at the worst, neutral. (Yeah, I'm sure there's a few bad eggs in the bunch).
Although... now I'm getting confused. The Irda (the majority of them) fell from grace and became ogres as a result of it. The reason they fell was because they let Takhisis tempt them... The Irda that remain, there for, are no longer true to Takhisis. And I seem to recall her creating them, too... (hence the source of my confusion). I'm not familiar with Irda stats *peers at her DL handbook... and decides not to open it*. But, from a story point of view, if you want to make her in the form of the race she put down... it should be ogre, as that is what they changed to.
Unless of course you really want to screw with the party and make an unusual Irda... but that supposes that they're aware of the Irda and their history in the first place to recognize the difference... the players themselves might, but the characters...
I dunno. I'd say human or ogre, myself. But that's just me.
Well.........
I've always seen Irda as good, or at the worst, neutral. (Yeah, I'm sure there's a few bad eggs in the bunch).
Although... now I'm getting confused. The Irda (the majority of them) fell from grace and became ogres as a result of it. The reason they fell was because they let Takhisis tempt them... The Irda that remain, there for, are no longer true to Takhisis. And I seem to recall her creating them, too... (hence the source of my confusion). I'm not familiar with Irda stats *peers at her DL handbook... and decides not to open it*. But, from a story point of view, if you want to make her in the form of the race she put down... it should be ogre, as that is what they changed to.
IIRC, when the remaining Irda renounced Tak, the gods of good (Paladine in particular) granted them a kind of sanctuary from Tak and hid them. Tak was all about finding and destroying them, but couldn't.
I still think if given an option, Tak would have taken the chromatic dragon form. But if she were to take the form of her chosen people, I'm thinking a titan would be it. I don't think she would willingly take the form of an ogre, as she herself was always portrayed as being rather vain, yet wanting to instill awe and/or fear in others. And she's probably disgusted with the Irda for renouncing her.
EDIT-Perhaps one of the Age of Dream ogres being discussed in the other thread.
Also, you don't have to be a dragon to be killed by a dragonlance. It may have been used as a symbol, but what we all seem to be overlooking is that Mina brought it and broke it as a gift to Takhisis, and it was the closest thing that was available. It was forged to be highly effective against dragonkind, but it still hurts everything else, just not quite as well.
Most of Takhisis' power came from the fact that she was a goddess, and so she really wouldn't have much power when she became a mortal. What I would suggest is, after she is killed, resurrect her later, and then plant whatever levels you want on her. Just a thought though, wouldn't she make a fantastic Ur-Priest? I mean, who would better know how to steal the power of the gods then one who was, until recently a goddess herself?
She must have been pretty *****. One stab from a broken Dragonlance and she died. Then again Tanis killing a 20+ level guy in one blow, also happened. When it comes down to narrations though, you have to remember that class levels and hitpoints start to become irrevalent. If Takasis dies in one blow, she does cause the book says she does.
I agree with this last sentence. After all Raistlin, with realistic levels, beat *all* the Gods, who according to Legends Volume 1 Time of the Twins can see into the future. Not only can they see the future, but they are statless, which to me suggests they are not prone to aggrevation by mortals.
I agree with this last sentence. After all Raistlin, with realistic levels, beat *all* the Gods, who according to Legends Volume 1 Time of the Twins can see into the future. Not only can they see the future, but they are statless, which to me suggests they are not prone to aggrevation by mortals.
What does any of that have to do with how Takhisis died?
She was a mortal when she got pierced by a dragonlance. Not a goddess.
This thread just keeps coming back.
What does any of that have to do with how Takhisis died?
She was a mortal when she got pierced by a dragonlance. Not a goddess.
My response has everything to do with the person I cited.
The other person made a conclusion based on game stats. But the novel written likely never took RPG stats into consideration.
The other person made a conclusion based on game stats.
A conclusion which was misleading and incorrect. Takhisis was a mortal when she was killed. Tanis used a legendary magic sword and was helped by Raistlin when he killed Ariakas. His point was that class levels and hitpoints become irrelevant in story form. Nice theory, wrong examples.
But the novel written likely never took RPG stats into consideration.
Or maybe it did. You don't know. It could have. The incidents mentioned certainly were possible taking possible RPG stats into consideration.
A conclusion which was misleading and incorrect. Takhisis was a mortal when she was killed. Tanis used a legendary magic sword and was helped by Raistlin when he killed Ariakas. His point was that class levels and hitpoints become irrelevant in story form. Nice theory, wrong examples.
Huh? I never said anything about Ariakas. You've read someone else's post and you think its mine.
Huh? I never said anything about Ariakas. You've read someone else's post and you think its mine.
Really? Let's go back to what you said about what you'd said about what the person you quoted said:
My response has everything to do with the person I cited.
Okay. Sure. :D
Really?
Yes, really.
Let's go back to what you said about what you'd said about what the person you quoted said:
Indeed we shall.
They said "How is X possible," with an example I answered, "Because X and Y are just fictional characters, and are not contrained by real life or any type of probability mechanics."
Specifically I gave another example which was also impossible, Raistlin becoming a God (I didn't say anything about Tanis or the dragon highlord). And then explained it could happen purely because the authors said it happened.
They said "How is X possible," with an example I answered, "Because X and Y are just fictional characters, and are not contrained by real life or any type of probability mechanics."
Umm...no...I'm pretty sure you didn't. That was the first time you said it actually. If you had said that I wouldn't have wondered "What does any of that have to do with how Takhisis died?"
But saying that still misses the point. The examples used are possible in both the game and the books. Hard, but possible.
...I didn't say anything about Tanis or the dragon highlord...
Except you quoted it. And that was the gist of the argument you quoted. Maybe you should read what you quote so you would know what you are pointing your answer at.
Specifically I gave another example which was also impossible, Raistlin becoming a God. And then explained it could happen purely because the authors said it happened.
Except you know what? It was possible anyway. You can become a god in the RPG. But because the procedure doesn't have statistics and precise examples and guidelines it's possible only by roleplaying your character there. Which is a very long and hard and highly unlikely road filled with all manner of obstacles. Just the way it should be. If it had stats, everyone could do it. Because then every munchkin who wanted to could just point at the text in the book where the procedure was and say "see, the rules say I can, so I will".
Umm...no...I'm pretty sure you didn't. That was the first time you said it actually. If you had said that I wouldn't have wondered "What does any of that have to do with how Takhisis died?"
I said it in example. What you quoted was the dumbed down version, wrote for you (since the simile went over your head).
But saying that still misses the point. The examples used are possible in both the game and the books. Hard, but possible.
Anything is possible in a novel. Which was my point, wasn't it.
Except you know what? It was possible anyway. You can become a god in the RPG.
Right, because the DM can just decide it happens. It wouldn't even take any work if the DM so decided. He might decide that you go to sleep a mortal, and wake up a God. But if you were to let it boil down to game mechanics alone, Gods don't have stats! Such creatures are beyond mortal aggrevation.
But because the procedure doesn't have statistics and precise examples and guidelines it's possible only by roleplaying your character there.
And the DM could say you wake up and you're a God. So why base argument on something that is so individual? Why say becoming a God is possible, because that entirely depends on the DM, and the DM can either choose yay or nay at his discretion. Would it even take hard work? Possibly not, depends on the DM. Some DM's might say its impossible, and all your attempts would be fruitless, the other end of the scale is they may make it too easy.
Anything is possible in a novel. Which was my point, wasn't it.
But my point was that what you based it on didn't make it impossible in the game. Which you seem to have missed completely. But whatever man. :D
But my point was that what you based it on didn't make it impossible in the game. Which you seem to have missed completely. But whatever man. :D
Oh, I see what you mean.
I didn't meant to suggest it was impossible to kill kill Takhisis.
I meant it was irrelevant how she died in a single hit, because it can happen if the author says it happened. Just like Raist. can kill all Gods if the author says it happened.
That's all I meant.
So when stripped of their godhood and placed as mortals as punishment/balance... they are placed in a form of the other gods choosing.... not the form of one of their main aspects.... which were stripped of them.