I'd been making images by modifying Ironwolf/Adamantyr's map of the Savage Baronies, and got as far as AC 916 before I realized that I had a problem: The Barony of Cristobal might extend beyond the map, and the Barony of Los Elegidos is doubtless completely north of the map's border.
So, I started looking at maps. Unfortunately, there are discrepancies. None agree on the shape of rivers that extend from Hule into Torreón, and terrain info on the official version of Hule (or at least Thorf's remake [ only one I have]) is almost nil. For Terrain, I've decided to base my info on the Red Steel maps, but for rivers, I'd like to know if the Red Steel map or Hule is supposed to be canon.
On the X5 Hule map, the Kazâl river doesn't exist (nor does the other river which branches from it at Azarun, of course Azarun doesn't exist there either). The Red Steel maps seem to follow the X5 map well (when I pasted them on top of each other): Hule's border is the same, and the rivers are almost identical except for the branch which would have dumped into the Gulf of Hule as the Kazâl is instead flowing through Torreón on the X5 map. Even worse, Thibault Sarlat's map uses borders different from both, and combines the two river systems into one, which makes it look like the river flows into the Gulf of Hule with its source as.. well... The Gulf of Hule.
I'm posting an image of what I'm describing below. Ironwolf's map (with a few added hexes) is a transparent overlay on top of a section of the Red Steel main map. The rivers from the X5 map are magenta, Ironwolf's (VotPA) rivers are cyan, and traced rivers from the main Red Steel map are yellow. The section of the X5 river which I want to know whether or not is canon is the magenta section with the blue dots placed next to it. The X5 Border stands out as it is 24 miles per hex, and Ironwolf's hexes are 8 miles since he used Voyage of the Princess Ark maps.
So, I started looking at maps. Unfortunately, there are discrepancies. None agree on the shape of rivers that extend from Hule into Torreón, and terrain info on the official version of Hule (or at least Thorf's remake [ only one I have]) is almost nil. For Terrain, I've decided to base my info on the Red Steel maps, but for rivers, I'd like to know if the Red Steel map or Hule is supposed to be canon.
I wouldn't consider the X5 map over the others, as it doesn't combine well with the Red Steel or VotPA map. The latter two seem to match quite closely, and are both more recent (and more detailed) than the X5 map.
I started a project recently: A set of maps (or an animated image) which details the rise and fall of the Baronies in the short century of Espan/Ispan rule on the Savage Coast.
Sounds great! I'm looking forward to seeing the end result.
So, I started looking at maps. Unfortunately, there are discrepancies. None agree on the shape of rivers that extend from Hule into Torreón, and terrain info on the official version of Hule (or at least Thorf's remake [ only one I have]) is almost nil. For Terrain, I've decided to base my info on the Red Steel maps, but for rivers, I'd like to know if the Red Steel map or Hule is supposed to be canon.
I don't think there's too much of a problem here - there are always discrepancies, you just have to work out which source you trust the most. For the rivers, the general courses usually remain about the same (with some exceptions), but they are never precisely the same. All that this proves is that the original cartographers didn't or couldn't use the same computer files to make the various versions of the maps. The earlier maps might not even have been made with a computer... The solution is simple - choose the version of the rivers that you like best.
On the X5 Hule map, the Kazâl river doesn't exist (nor does the other river which branches from it at Azarun, of course Azarun doesn't exist there either). The Red Steel maps seem to follow the X5 map well (when I pasted them on top of each other): Hule's border is the same, and the rivers are almost identical except for the branch which would have dumped into the Gulf of Hule as the Kazâl is instead flowing through Torreón on the X5 map. Even worse, Thibault Sarlat's map uses borders different from both, and combines the two river systems into one, which makes it look like the river flows into the Gulf of Hule with its source as.. well... The Gulf of Hule.
Generally newer sources, especially those that detail previously empty (or largely empty) areas, outrank older sources. So X5's rivers should be overruled by the Princess Ark's. If this means that some or all rivers have to be moved or removed altogether, so be it.
Things become more complex here because of two things. First, X5 is unfortunately the only primary source we have on Hule. This is a real problem considering that it tells us practically nothing other than the overall shape of the terrain. Second, Red Steel shows us part of Hule, but is a problematic source, in that it doesn't always preserve continuity with the surrounding regions - nor for that matter with the Princess Ark maps. This is presumably as a result of its separation from Mystara, but it is a big pain in the neck.
The section of the X5 river which I want to know whether or not is canon is the magenta section with the blue dots placed next to it.
So the answer is yes it's canon, but it belongs to the first generation of Mystara's maps. It was revised and removed in the second generation. So you don't need to worry about it.
Since I'm planning on expanding my Dragon maps using Red Steel quite soon, is there an area that you are specifically in need of? It sounds as if you would benefit most from an expansion of the western shore of the Gulf of Hule, right?
1007 ... The Master of Hule sets a curse on his enemies, inflicting floods and other natural disasters on the Savage Baronies.
The Master could have caused the floods by leveling the depth of the rivers in question; caused a temporary flood and removed the rivers permanently. *shrug*
Of course, there are other changes, like The Escarpment. VotPA and X5 agree with each other on the big features (Escarpment, Rivers, Coastline) more than Red Steel does with either of the other two, but Red Steel and VotPA agree with each other better for terrain details. My current thought is to ignore my above theory about The Master's curse, include the river branch, making it look like a split rather than a main branch, and extend the Rio Copos and Escarpment as seen in the VotPA and X5. I'm still going to use the Red Steel maps to provide hexes for terrain outside of the VotPA maps areas.
Since I'm planning on expanding my Dragon maps using Red Steel quite soon, is there an area that you are specifically in need of? It sounds as if you would benefit most from an expansion of the western shore of the Gulf of Hule, right?
Well, I've already started doing the same thing north of the SB. I'd like to see how close we come to each other's interpretations of the borders, rivers, terrain, etc.
The method I'm using? The layered transparency above, and just pasting in bitmap hexes of whatever terrain is underneath.
I'm keeping Adamantyr's river from RS, but adding the main Copos to the west. This has the effect of shifting the northern X5 river to the east 64 miles or so, but if you're not looking carefully, it has the same visual effect:
So, should I stick with the compromise, or move the northern Copos over to the west?
RS is the newest map, and thus should carry the most weight, but it's facing evidence from two reliable (albeit older) witnesses.
I obviously used Ironwolf's maps for the base and added area north. I also added the Rio Copos extension.
I tried to remain true to what I saw on the Red Steel map, but I did follow Thibault's Southern Hule map very slightly for terrain.
Still need to add towns for Southern Hule; anyone know of any canon sources for at least descriptions? I can't follow Thibault on this one; he's renamed Magden as Jerhom...
gee, it seems you all have got plenty of freetime at hand these days to launch all these project! Lucky you!
;)Okay, how does this terrain look for north of VotPA/Ironwolf's maps?
I obviously used Ironwolf's maps for the base and added area north. I also added the Rio Copos extension.
Very impressive! :-)
As far as Hulean towns go, I don't think there's much beyond what is shown on the VotPA maps and X5.
Geoff
One question: what is the difference between the green grasslands hex and the yellow grasslands hex? Shouldn't they both be the same?
One question: what is the difference between the green grasslands hex and the yellow grasslands hex? Shouldn't they both be the same?
To be frank, I'm not sure; The pure green land around rivers his farmland, so I'm assuming that green grassland is grassland that recieves more rain than yellow grassland. Adamantyr might be able to tell you what the colors mean since they're from his original map.
Edit: maybe green is standard grassland, yellow is steppe?
That is a very nice map.
Thanks, but to be fair, I only added a layer 13 hexes high onto Adamantyr's map, and changed a river. Adamantyr did 99.999% of the work (under the pseudonym Ironwolf).
For the terrain of south-eastern Hule, I'm using the Champions of Mystara great waste map.
One question I have stems from a major difference between the Red Steel maps and the CoM map of the great waste (I've only seen Thorf's remake):
Is the town at the southern bend of the Thanat River in Hule named Magden (RS) or Jehrom (CoM)? I know the usual "canon rule" is to use the last published, but I'd prefer to believe a hex map that looks like it required a little more thought than a quick Photoshop brushstroke...
Wow, been more than a year since I last posted on this topic. Work is still progressing (despite the fact that Thorf has made some of the effort obsolete with his March 16th 2006 update of the gulf of hule).
For the terrain of south-eastern Hule, I'm using the Champions of Mystara great waste map.
One question I have stems from a major difference between the Red Steel maps and the CoM map of the great waste (I've only seen Thorf's remake):
Is the town at the southern bend of the Thanat River in Hule named Magden (RS) or Jehrom (CoM)? I know the usual "canon rule" is to use the last published, but I'd prefer to believe a hex map that looks like it required a little more thought than a quick Photoshop brushstroke...
This stems from the confusion over which town Magden is. In X5, which introduced Magden, it was "the first town the PCs get to" - whichever one of the three or four marked on the map that happened to be... Champions of Mystara's map presumably took this to mean that Magden is the closest town to the Great Pass, since most PCs would probably get there first.
For Red Steel: Savage Baronies, clearly the cartographer didn't check/didn't know about/couldn't find the Champions of Mystara map (made just two or three years before), and so they placed the only known name (Magden from X5) and made up the name "Kizil" for the only other marked town.
Personally, I would go with Champions of Mystara, because as you say it seems to be the more convincing source of the two. Also it gives more names than Red Steel, although I would probably pick up the name "Kizil" and use it elsewhere in Hule.
Edit: Don't forget that Christian Constantin did a wonderful series of maps showing this area (Hule and the Midlands maps). It looks as if he kept the Champions of Mystara version of town names, though he changed a few of them into cities.
One question: what is the difference between the green grasslands hex and the yellow grasslands hex? Shouldn't they both be the same?
I think it's the same theory that went into the green and yellow grasslands hexes on the Ethengar map- the yellow, I think represents less fertile grasslands than the green grass hexes.
About Red Steel maps, I consider it's wrong except when it doen't conflict with another source (presenting the same the other sources or showing something no other source did before). For example, verdan acents are completely wrong; Taking a closer look, we can see in the VotPA maps "Campo Ladrão" instead of "Campo Ladráo"
I agree thar Rio Copos should continue west. But how it would like combining Rio Copos with north Robrenn? Rio Copos pass north of Hightlands of Pyctis?
Are you still working on this maps? I guess it might be easier for both of us if we work together on it, what do you think? ;)