How many people out there use steel pieces in their DL game? We did away with them from the outset and just use gold pieces for the sake of simplicity.
To me, steel pieces are one of the defining flavor elements of Dragonlance. It gives the setting a little something different.
Really, it's not that hard to transpose. Just substitute steel pieces for gold pieces at an equal value and voila! You're good to go.
Also, to me, it never made sense that people would make coins out of a metal they desperately need for armor and weapons. If its that rare, and its needed a lot for weapons, I dont see why people would want them in coin form.
I've seen plenty of people try to go through and justify why steel peices are viable, or why they arent. In the end, it just doesnt bother me enough.
Its so much easier to just go with the standard system for coinage. Others may like the extra "feel" it gives.. to me its not worth the effort.
How many people out there use steel pieces in their DL game? We did away with them from the outset and just use gold pieces for the sake of simplicity.
No and HELL no. I have a deep and abiding hatred of steel pieces. They were a bad idea in 1984 and remain a bad idea now in 2005. They make no sense. They should have been ditched in DL3E.
There is absolutely nothing "Krynnish" about steel pieces to me.
In my mind, they are "established" in DL. Doing away with them would be just another annoying retconning.
I still wait for the chance to present my players a dragon's hoard ... full of ancient GOLD coins:-) hehe!
Of course, being ancient, some of them might have value to collectors ... but not all.
@Kalanth:
Iron.
Though steel doesn't seem so rare anymore. In the novels weapons and armor - if the material is mentioned - are often made out of steel. And not just dwarf-crafted items ... --> continuity issue.
In my interpretation of Krynn, the knowledge how to produce steel was always only given from master to apprentice and in post-Cataclysmic Krynn, it was lost at least among humans.
Dwarves didn't loose this knowledge. Probably some elves and minotaurs also know how to make it. Gnomes ... well, they're gnomes.
Other races never had this knowledge.
@Kalanth:
Iron.
*Smacking myself excrutiatingly hard* Wow, I am so dumb for forgetting about Iron. Maybe its the fact that I have been up all night working (at my job, not DL regretably). Still, I don't understand why steel is a bad idea? Why do so many out there hate this aspect of DL? Ok, the electrum, bronze, and all their buddies needed to go (to much loose change) and got reduced to a nice fine list (Plat, gold, silver, copper). But what is so difficult of the system in DL? (Plat, Steel, Gold, Silver, Copper). One more 10th, basically.
One place they explored was an old temple to Shinare that also served as a mint. They found piles and piles of gold bricks as well as thousands of ancient Ergothian gold and silver coins.
Though it may not seem logical to everyone to use steel pieces, I find it to be very fun. In my campaign, most people refuse to use gold currency because it was the currency favored by the Kingpriest's empire. There's still a lot of bad blood towards Istar for its actions before the cataclysm, and some people think the money might even be cursed. Coming across these huge troves of gold coins in ancient ruins gives a feel for the massive wealth that was amassed before the Cataclysm, and, at least in my mind, it gives the feeling of stumbling across something truly ancient.
How many people out there use steel pieces in their DL game? We did away with them from the outset and just use gold pieces for the sake of simplicity.
To me that's like asking:
"How many people out there play Dragonlance? We did away with it from the outset and just play in Greyhawk for the sake of simplicity."
;)
There is absolutely nothing "Krynnish" about steel pieces to me.
Aside from the fact that, together with "there are no halflings, they are called kender" it was one of the real marked differences introduced in DL1 which made the Dragonlance series seem new and different from the other modules that had been released before, you mean?
Steel pieces are a classic element of Dragonlance whether they make sense or not. It served to bring home the conceit that the world the heroes lived in was a shadow of the one that existed prior to the Cataclysm, a world crawling from the wreckage of hubris and disaster. To me, steel pieces represented the shift from stockpiling gold and precious metals to a system of institutionalized currency that necessitated either the use of steel for weapons and armor, or for coins. It really doesn't seem to me to be any more strange than representing worth through pieces of paper.
Cheers,
Cam
No and HELL no. I have a deep and abiding hatred of steel pieces. They were a bad idea in 1984 and remain a bad idea now in 2005. They make no sense. They should have been ditched in DL3E.
There is absolutely nothing "Krynnish" about steel pieces to me.
There was a period that I would agree with you, but then I learned how many strange things have been used as currency throughout history in the real world, and suddenly steel doesn't feel out of place at all. (And think about it, we are now using little slips of paper and electrons bouncing around computer networks!) Using coinage as a reminder that steel is now more valuable than gold may seem a bit heavy-handed, it to me is one of those little details that separates Dragonlance from the other worlds.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
...but then I learned how many strange things have been used as currency throughout history in the real world, and suddenly steel doesn't feel out of place at all...
If I could search I would link to an old thread very similar to this one where I went over several old real world currencies that were a lot weirder than steel. Even from the "but steel weapons cost more steel to make than they sell for" perspective. It's not the worth of what the currency is made of, it's what the government says it's worth. :D
PC : "OK I go to the general store to pick up supplies. Out of the PHB, it totals 15 gold pieces."
DM : "You mean steel?"
PC : "Yeah, gold, steel whatever."
So to avoid these converstions I did away with Steel. Also the way I look at it, is that if steel became a precious commodity during the age of despair, then I don't think it would have been minted for coinage, but instead used for what it's purpose is. Be it weapons, armor, engineering.
Heck, we hardly need physical money these days, yet they still print it.
To me, taking away steel pieces is like taking away the moons. No, wait, they tried that already... ;)
Ok, the electrum, bronze, and all their buddies needed to go (to much loose change) and got reduced to a nice fine list (Plat, gold, silver, copper).
Good night, it's been forever since I thought of electrum and bronze pieces. I wonder what else I've forgotten.
I did away with it because I didnt feel like reminding them every single time "no..its steel peices not gold peices". While I guess after many many times of reminding maybe they would remember, its just not worth it.. in my opinion.
Our sentiments exactly. ;)
We tried tinkering with different currency rates for different nations as well, but we dumped that too after we realized we were more interested in heroic adventure than financial exchange rates.
I remember playing the C64 games and getting thousands and thousands of gold that only translated to much less steel pieces ... wow, I have no idea if that's really true it's been so long! ... maybe I was reading DLA/novels while playing the game and got them mixed up! ...
I do however remember having to change cp/sp into gold playing Pool of Radiance.
PCs: Whoa!! 10,000 gp!!! we're rich!!
DM: How ya gonna transport all that?
PCs: (finally figured a way to get the gold to port so to speak). Whew!
DM: ready for the exhange rate?
PCs:
...One or two rust monsters, suddenly your broke.
Adds alittle excitement - don't you think.
Are you telling me there's no mines in Krynn? What devalued gold? Dwarves? Was the Mountain they tossed down made of gold?
If iron (because steal is smelted iron) is so rare why would you put it into coins rather than valuable tools?
---Tamora Amberleaf
Weapons usually cost a lot more to make than their ingredients are worth.
Now while this means that you can't smelt a sword into money to make money; it also means, very interestingly, that if you make a sword and then sell it you now have proportionally less steel but more money. Smelting steel coins and making swords is therefore almost equally pointless.
Which then means that even though the initial decision to make money out of steel might have been a mistake by whichever government started it first, because of the amount of money it cost them (unless they happened to use slave labour to do it), after the fact you now have a situation where having the money is worth more than using it for something else.
And maybe because of the all the wars and chaos that Krynn has experienced steel has remained as a currency simply because no one has had time to think about the situation or the alternatives.
You might not even necessarily have to make all that many new coins since the population numbers on Krynn aren't rising. Steel coins are also so expensive that they mostly stay out of the hands of the avarage people (like I have never had a 500 euro note in my hand).
While gold might cost less to make than it is worth the people of Krynn have learned to view gold as a useless metal, because no one is doing anything with it. A tradition of neglecting the obvious. You might go so far as to say that anything made of gold would most likely be of Istarian or earlier make.
Oh, and look what I found with a little googling:
Iron and steel currency bars in ancient Greece
To be clear, I'm not really concerned about the "realism" of using steel pieces. The DL world has a satisfactory explanation, IMO. I'm more interested in whether people use it or not based on convenience/usefulness vs. DL authenticity.
I just thought I better answer it both ways. :D
To be clear, I'm not really concerned about the "realism" of using steel pieces. The DL world has a satisfactory explanation, IMO. I'm more interested in whether people use it or not based on convenience/usefulness vs. DL authenticity.
Well, of course I use it for DL authenticity, thats the same reason why I call Gold galifor when we play Eberron.
But honestly, its occasionally distracting to have the PCs building smelting factories for the iron weapons they recover to make into money.
It's...interesting.
But honestly, its occasionally distracting to have the PCs building smelting factories for the iron weapons they recover to make into money.
Just have the weapons made of gold !!! ;)
As one or two people pointed out, I just dont want to have to constantly remind my PC's over and over again that its steel peices, not gold. I personally just dont find it worth it. Others do..and thats cool. Your campaign is more "Dragonlance-y" I guess. I find other details more important, and others are probably less important, but I still incorporate them.
I guess it just depends on what a person really wants to "enforce". I think even if I played in Dark Sun, even though they use clay chips and stuff, I'd still refer to the stuff as gold coins, silver coins, etc. I guess I'd just explain once to my players that its really clay, but from then on just refer to them by their equivelant value in metal. If it ever came up where they were like "I thought metal was rare.." I'd remind them that they are actually using clay. In Dragonlance I dont feel like saying "Well its really steel peices but we'll call it gold" because I dont see where it'd matter ever.
I dunno, to each their own. Its a very very small detail that I have no problem getting rid of.
Spending 15 Steel pieces (used to be 1/10th of a pound each, 3e uses 1/50th or whatnot) for 4 lbs of sword seems pointless.
If the money's value is dictated by a government or trade's guild, then it defeats the purpose of making the steel valuable. IMO.
How many people out there use steel pieces in their DL game? We did away with them from the outset and just use gold pieces for the sake of simplicity.
We use steel, it adds to the flavour & makes the campaign world different to the other D&D games we play.
The benefit of steel peices is that they can't be clipped. Following the Cataclysm, Palanthas which was miraculously spared by the Cataclysm, had a problem of its currency repeatedly crashing due to people clipping the coins, and because they would melt them down everytime the price of gold rose above the currency standard.
Thus, the senate and lord mayor of Palanthas began to circulate steel tokens that represented the price of a gold coin. You were only legally allowed to circulate the steel coins within the city, but you could cash it in for a standard gold peice from the city treasury. To keep it from rusting, they used an alchemical process that had been invented by the Dwarves of Kaoylin, which used a nickle alloy combined with lightning magic.
Once the public learned to trust the currency (because the plan was backed by the guilds), it was successful. Merchants liked it because they could trust the value of the coins they were passing. Soon, people who did a lot of trade with Palanthas stopped bothering to trade their coins in for gold standard. Other trading partners of Palanthas began to ape this practice, leading to more and more steel coins in circulation. Eventually, Palanthas unhooked the value of its currency from the value of gold, and the price of gold plummeted.
So you've got the essential things in place. You have steel peices, and you have the fact that steel peices arose from the economic chaos following the Cataclysm. Heck, you can even reclaim the fact that gold has some value, probably on the level of an electrum peice... so you can have those impressive gold doors and statues that Margaret Weis was complaining about in her Mortality Radio interview. You keep the flavour, but you don't look like an ignorant idiot.
You cannot make steel coins and then melt it down to make weapons or armour that wouldn't shatter into a million peices. Especially if you don't have blast furnaces. You can't even recycle steel into the inferior grade soft steel that you use to cover your washing machine or vehicle with modern technology with medieval tech. You can make steel weapons and armour from bars of pig iron. PERIOD Saying otherwise just makes us look ignorant, and reveals bad world setting design.
So please, take this explanation. I renounce any and all claims to it. I will glady sign any paper agreeing to such. I do not need any credit for the idea at all. Just take it and patch up one of the worst parts of dragonlance's credibility.
If you take away steel, and remove the gnome, kender, and gully dwarven intriquesy what are you left with really? Just having a player make a hint more of an effort is not to much trouble to bear when it comes to keeping the flavor.
As far as for Steel being rare and still being used for weapons you have got to remember, most people have not even seen a weapon made of steel. In most twons steel is so rare that while something might cost only 1 steel, the vendor would more likely ask for 2 iron or 20 silver as most people have never seen a "steel piece."
To keep it from rusting, they used an alchemical process that had been invented by the Dwarves of Kaoylin, which used a nickle alloy combined with lightning magic.
I think you need to simplify that as not all steel coins are minted in Palanthas. Just say they added chromium to it...essentially creating stainless steel.
And, actually...it is possible to reforge normal steel coins into weapons or armor...but you're have to get it really really hot. But if you made the steel coins out of stainless steel...you wouldn't be able to do that (at least not with the current technology level of Krynn...not without transmutation magic, anyway...hell, I'm not even entirely certain we can do that).
Anyway...I really like this idea, Terry. And its the explination I use...with a minor altercation.
After the Cataclysm, coin clipping was really becoming rampant. So much so that the gold piece was essentially becoming worthless, not because gold was worthless, but because no one would accept the gold coins anymore.
However, steel was in great demand, and so a popular form of currency became bartering steel items. It's not that steel was rare, it's that steel weapons and armor and items were rare, and they were needed now and in great quantities. So shop owners would accept these items as trade, then turn them in to the governments or merc groups or whoever and sell them the weapons.
The athorities had problems now, they had a butt load of currency that no merchants would accept. Eventually, the authorities got wise to the fact that using a metal that was relatively worthless if all you had were shavings (unlike gold) they could nip that pracice in the bud. Ultimately, some form of stainless steel was chosen as the metal. Iron is a relatively common metal, so they decided to use that.
Enter the rest of your explination.
Anyway...I don't think the steel piece makes us or Dragonlance looks ignorant. It make perfect sense...if you just think about it, I think.
I think you need to simplify that as not all steel coins are minted in Palanthas.
Right. The Seeker Lands in the years before the War of the Lance had their own steel coin known as the emas. I imagine other coins, of different mintage and design, were used in other parts of Ansalon. I like currency to reflect the area it's used in. I also really like that adventurers breaking into tombs or ruins and finding buried hoards would realize that their great discovery was relatively worthless. Xak Tsaroth, in the decades before the Cataclysm, utilized clay currency called tulli, which is even more worthless than gold.
Cheers,
Cam
I think you need to simplify that as not all steel coins are minted in Palanthas.
Oh, I did. I just figured that of all the places, Palanthas would have been the most likely to the origin of the idea. The other trading partners (Abanisania, Imperial Ergoth, Saifhum, etc.) followed suit. The Dragon Empire as well, because using commonly accepted steel currency was a license to print money if it was backed up by muscle.
Just say they added chromium to it...essentially creating stainless steel.
Yes, I forgot about the chromium as well as the nickel. See the reason stainless steel comes up is the fact that steel peices rust extremely easily, perhaps even more so than copper or silver. I'm not sure myself if it would affect currency usage, I'm only guessing here.
Of course, if we do need stainless steel, we make the usefulness of making armour and weapons out of steel even more implausible due to the nickle and chromium (and perhaps vandium) crap we put in there. Making stainless steel armour from scratch wouldn't be out of the question (since it is fairly durable) but as we all know stainless steel blades are impossible to sharpen.
And, actually...it is possible to reforge normal steel coins into weapons or armor...but you're have to get it really really hot. But if you made the steel coins out of stainless steel...you wouldn't be able to do that (at least not with the current technology level of Krynn...not without transmutation magic, anyway...hell, I'm not even entirely certain we can do that).
We do recycle steel... with blast furnaces. Something we need as well if we want even remotely useable guns as well. However, for stuff that needs to be of excellent quality, we use new steel rather than recycled steel. Recycled steel is good enough for the panels that cover your washing machine or SUV, but not good enough for heavy duty stuff like drill bits and other tools. If your wrench or socket set easily loses its grip and has to be replaced every couple of years, you'll know why.
After the Cataclysm, coin clipping was really becoming rampant. So much so that the gold piece was essentially becoming worthless, not because gold was worthless, but because no one would accept the gold coins anymore.
One could also claim in addition to the clipping that gold was being cut with lead and many other soft metals. Some rulers would do this in order to skim off the top. In fact, it was a chronic problem in the late Roman Empire.
However, steel was in great demand, and so a popular form of currency became bartering steel items. It's not that steel was rare, it's that steel weapons and armor and items were rare, and they were needed now and in great quantities. So shop owners would accept these items as trade, then turn them in to the governments or merc groups or whoever and sell them the weapons.
This makes sense in terms of steel being valuable in its own sense, but seems to work against it being made into currency... which is really the debate here. We would have to assume that people had a value in itself as steel, even though the currency itself didn't have any use melted down. I still think pegging it to a gold standard makes more sense.
Anyway...I don't think the steel piece makes us or Dragonlance looks ignorant. It make perfect sense...if you just think about it, I think.
Yes, but we have to think about it. How many of us have heard this as one of the primary objections to running a dragonlance game? Let's be honest with ourselves and admit that this is another "flavour" of dragonlance that needs a little patching to make it better. It isn't like we haven't done it with other core concepts.
Xak Tsaroth, in the decades before the Cataclysm, utilized clay currency called tulli, which is even more worthless than gold.
Which they used to represent wealth, the same way use paper money. Nobody is claiming that people in Xak Tsaroth found clay valuable for its own sake.
Why do we insist on this explanation for steel coins? Especially since it is so counter-intuitive?
perhaps even more so than copper or silver.
Oh yes, very much so. If it's a carbon or high carbon steel, it will rust very fast. With my sword, when if someone is looking at it and touches the blade...it doesn't take long before there's a little fingerprint sized area of corrosion and I'm going to have to get out the steel wool again. LOL!
Of course, if we do need stainless steel, we make the usefulness of making armour and weapons out of steel even more implausible due to the nickle and chromium (and perhaps vandium) crap we put in there.
I'd think that'd be a good thing...as you don't want people destroying your currency anyway.
stainless steel armour from scratch wouldn't be out of the question (since it is fairly durable) but as we all know stainless steel blades are impossible to sharpen.
Stainless steel is bad for two main reasons. 1) it's extremely heavy (which is why all those stainless steel swords and chain mails you find and ren fests and such weigh a lot more than the real stuff), 2) it is very brittle; high carbon steel is supposed to be the right combonation of flexible and stiff (but even it can shatter if not made properly)...but stainless steel is very brittle because of all the crap you're throwing into the alloy. I'm not sure about it not taking an edge though. Most pocket knives are made out of stainless steel and they take an edge.
One could also claim in addition to the clipping that gold was being cut with lead and many other soft metals.
Agreed.
This makes sense in terms of steel being valuable in its own sense, but seems to work against it being made into currency... which is really the debate here.
But it wasn't the alloy itself that was rare. Just that there was suddenly a huge demand for weapons and armor by the state and merc groups. So merchants would accept such items as payment (which they would then turn around and sell to the governments) which was great for the people who were finding that less and less places were accepting their gold coins.
Eventually (after the demand for the steel died down) the people were still having trouble getting merchants to accept their gold coins. It is at this point that the governments (probably Palanthas first, as you state) decided to use a steel standard...which people were already used to by now...and conveniently also was a good solution to the gold clipping (and dilluting...essentially conterfeiting).
So...I don't really see it as gold becoming worthless because steel became more valuable. I think it's easier explained as two seperate events that happened roughly at the same time (most likely the gold coin becoming worthless first). Either way...the Cataclysm, I think, finally ushered in a continent-wide representative money system where before it was mostly a literal money system. I'm not really willing to speculate on what exactly those steel pieces are based on, I can only say that it's obviously not a steel reserve.
Oh yes, very much so. If it's a carbon or high carbon steel, it will rust very fast.
There we go then, stainless steel is a must.
Stainless steel is bad for two main reasons.
Yeah I know, but not completely out of the question. It has the advantage of not rusting, and shines up really nice if you just want to show off. It might be good for ceremonial armour. I'm not going to pretend though that I knew before all you just said. I don't know much about ren fairs and stuff, but it makes sense given that I've had a couple stainless steel knives snap on me due to heavy use that stainless steel is more brittle. I once had a knife break on me when I dropped it on a cement floor for example.
I'm not sure about it not taking an edge though. Most pocket knives are made out of stainless steel and they take an edge.
A bugger to resharpen though.
Agreed.But it wasn't the alloy itself that was rare. Just that there was suddenly a huge demand for weapons and armor by the state and merc groups. So merchants would accept such items as payment (which they would then turn around and sell to the governments) which was great for the people who were finding that less and less places were accepting their gold coins.
Okay, as long as it was a matter of parallel development rather than codependent development. You would still get the idea of metal weapons and tools as valuable, and still have a coin currency that makes sense.
Of course, there wouldn't be any problems at all if Tracy Hickman had gone a little gritter and done away with coins completely (opting for a pig iron trade standard).
Eventually (after the demand for the steel died down) the people were still having trouble getting merchants to accept their gold coins. It is at this point that the governments (probably Palanthas first, as you state) decided to use a steel standard...which people were already used to by now...and conveniently also was a good solution to the gold clipping (and dilluting...essentially conterfeiting).
I think it makes more sense actually that Palanthian treasury got a reputation for good solid gold coins, even if they could not guarantee the ones in direct circulation. Once you had the fledgling merchant houses and banking institutions on board, the currency became accepted and stabilized under the new steel standard.
Since we have stainless steel of course, we'll also need wizards to be employed at the mint to create the currency, using a combination of dwarven alchemy and magical electricity (probably a tinker gnome or two in there too).
It might be why wizards were more accepted in Palanthian society while the knights were not. It would also explain the references to wizards who try to create steel coins in "Soulforge" and getting the populace angry. After all, only alchemists and wizards can counterfit these coins right?
There we go, Brimstone came up with a reasonable explanation of steel standard currency before and completely independent of me. We all love Brimstone right? So let's adopt this idea officially into the campaign setting.
Which they used to represent wealth, the same way use paper money. Nobody is claiming that people in Xak Tsaroth found clay valuable for its own sake.
Why do we insist on this explanation for steel coins? Especially since it is so counter-intuitive?
Because clay coins are equally as silly when using that level of technology as existed pre-Cataclysm.
"The designers in 1984 had ANOTHER bad idea too" is hardly a sturdy foundation.
Sorry. There is no way to logically rationalize this in any defenceable manner. It is not the same as paper at all. We don't use "paper", we use currency - a high tech paper note backed by a central government, an international banking system and which incorporates technology to defend its integrity and is very difficult to counterfeit. It evolved itself as a substitute for gold. It has always been high tech for as long as it has been accepted (bring on the China arguments - I'm ready for ya
).With paper currency - the printing processes and the type of paper, the feel and the weave is the protection of the currency's store of value. We have moved to engravings, extremely complicated inks and watermarks combined with threads and holograms to defend currency's integrity as the scanner and color printers have made simple reproductions commonplace.
We are but 5 generations removed from a society that distrusted anything but gold. And even then - at least we had a massive centralized government and a sophisticated banking system to foster and nurture its acceptance (Willam Jennings Bryan anyone?). None of that is even remotely a DREAM on our imaginary Krynn, let alone a "reality" as we know the setting.
With gold and silver, the protection are the metals' rarity. The technology of the era cannot make the coining of these metals prohibitively difficult in itself - and the governments of the day are little more than city states - exactly the kind of government which is incapable of enforcing currency of a non-precious type, (let alone to be able to resist coining more as it was needed, another fatal flaw in the steel coin theory).
Rarity is the defence to counterfeit and runaway inflation as a store of value. It's that simple. Precious metal coinage evolved for very good reasons - and it those very good reasons which steel coins utterly ignores.
It is a fine thing to suggest that the need for weapons in a nasty brutish and short life following the Cataclysm occurred for a brief time and made all but iron a needless luxury - but 350 years is a VERY long time in a society where the average life expectancy for a human would be about 30-35. Even in the War of the Lance era - the Cataclysm was long ago. It wasn't "just yesterday".
It is inescapable: The reason iron coinage is an impossible store of value is because it is too common. Iron is a common element. It is the byproduct of nuclear fusion - the last such stage before a star explodes. The heavens are full of it and so is the soil. There is absolutely no suggestion in any of the novels or stories to suggest that iron is anything but as plentiful on Krynn as it is on earth.
That is why iron coinage is fundamentally silly. The society is not technologically advanced enough that the minting process itself is any defence. The metal itself is far too common to be a reasonable store of value. The governments are little more than City States who are simply unable to enforce an artificial value
Steel coins were a plainly bad idea introduced purely for metagaming pruposes to strip wealth off of characters transferring from other worlds to the world of Krynn. They didn't do it to make Krynn unique - they did it to screw-over a character in a Greyhawk campaign 21 years ago.
And now we come to it: I have never, *ever*, used steel coins in any of my DL campaigns and my DragonLance world is as vibrant, different and distinct as anyone's. It adds nothing.
To suggest a Krynn without steel coins is little better than a GreyHawk lite is utter nonsense. It is in a word, crap. The Knights of Solamnia, the Towers of High Sorcery, the Moons and the gods ...these things are central to Krynn's identity. Steel coins rate with the Orders of High Sorcery or KoS? No and HELL no.
I know Trampas, Cam and Jamie have weighed in on this one; but for all of that, I must look at them and shake my head in disagreement and still dissent. Steel coins were a plainly bad idea when implemented and they remain a plainly bad idea now.
I know Trampas, Cam and Jamie have weighed in on this one; but for all of that, I must look at them and shake my head in disagreement and still dissent. Steel coins were a plainly bad idea when implemented and they remain a plainly bad idea now.
The good news is, SW, you're entitled to your opinion, and you don't have to use steel pieces in your Dragonlance games. Won't make them go away officially, though!
Cheers,
Cam
My main thing was people who thought a Dragonlance campaign suffered or lacked a real "Dragonlance-y" feel because of using gold coins instead of steel coins. Personally I feel steel coins add very very very little.
Getting rid of steel really doesnt change much at all, except some coins laying in treasuries somewhere. Lumping that together with getting rid of Kender, Gnomes, WoHS, etc is ridiculous. Those are distinct peoples, organizations, etc and do all add to the flavour overall of Krynn.
Now I'll grant you that Steel peices are part of offical Krynn. Anyone who doesnt use them isnt going by the "official" way, but who does go strictly by everything that is every mentioned? No one.
When taking out or adding things, a person is always walking a fine line. While some people love to change lots of things.. how much can you change until a world isnt that world anymore? Is there a perfect number or percentage somewhere?
f there is, I dont know it. I just know in the great scheme of things, using gold instead of steel doesnt change jack for me or how I perceive Dragonlance. Others disagree and its understandable. But to think that the world will resemble very little to the official Dragonlance is crazy.
As I said, its always a fine line when you change things and want to keep the "feel" of the setting you fell in love with. Sometimes I think people would be better of just running homebrew worlds after some of the changes I see people make. I'm not sure wether they just want to say they are adventuring in Krynn or what, but some people change things, import so much, take out other distinctive things, that the world really barely even resembles the "official" Dragonlance.
In my campaign I use gold instead of steel because as I said, I feel I get no loss of "flavour". Another thing that I will soon be incorporating is Lycanthropes. For some reason I just really want to use them and dont feel they take away anything. I also have the Knights of Neraka as honorable again, the WoHS at least tolerating sorcerors(all the while belittling them, etc), Knights of Solamnia can be clerics of other gods while revering Kiri-Jolith as their sponsor, etc. I do this because I feel it goes along with Dragonlance as I see it. Others may see it as heresy and think it totally undermines what Dragonlance is about. I guess both would be "right".
As I said, its a fine line to walk when changing things because of how far can you go until you might as well have done a homebrew world. And I have no clue where that line is, but I'm sure I'll realize it if I ever get to that point in my campaign.
I dont have any desire for my players to "put forth the effort" because I just see it as such a small small thing. It means nothing to me. Now after saying that, if I was playing in someone elses campaign and they wanted me to keep the flavour and call them steel peices I wouldnt really have much of a problem doing so. Its just so small...
This may have come off as a rant, but its not really meant to be. Its such a small thing heh.. But I can see how some people would want to keep as close to "real" Dragonalcne as you can, but I almost think changing prominent NPC's personalities, or organizations goals, etc is a bigger thing. Thats just how small I see the steel/gold issue.
Also some of this is colored because as I said before I have 2 newer players and a player who's never played in Dragonlance. Just so much easier for me not to worry about the gold/steel issue. Maybe its laziness too, but I dont want to keep reminding them over and over again.
Because clay coins are equally as silly when using that level of technology as existed pre-Cataclysm.
Luckily, all my ceramic pieces remain on the hot desert world of Athas. ;)
Steel coins were a plainly bad idea introduced purely for metagaming pruposes to strip wealth off of characters transferring from other worlds to the world of Krynn. They didn't do it to make Krynn unique - they did it to screw-over a character in a Greyhawk campaign 21 years ago.
Do you know this for a fact, or is that your opinion? It may very well be a minor flavor thing.
And now we come to it: I have never, *ever*, used steel coins in any of my DL campaigns and my DragonLance world is as vibrant, different and distinct as anyone's. It adds nothing.
I would disagree with you there. I'm not saying you can't play DL without steel pieces, but it is a nice little touch that adds a hint of flavor and helps to separate DL from other settings.
To suggest a Krynn without steel coins is little better than a GreyHawk lite is utter nonsense. It is in a word, crap. The Knights of Solamnia, the Towers of High Sorcery, the Moons and the gods ...these things are central to Krynn's identity. Steel coins rate with the Orders of High Sorcery or KoS? No and HELL no.
Easy there, guy. I don't think anyone was suggesting that the world of Krynn couldn't operate without steel pieces.
In my mind, they're a good flavor piece. It adds a little something to have them, and takes away a little something when they're taken away. It's not game-breaking not to have them, though.
I know, I joked earlier about how taking away steel pieces was like taking away the moons. And really, that's all that was meant to be - a joke. There is a difference.
I know Trampas, Cam and Jamie have weighed in on this one; but for all of that, I must look at them and shake my head in disagreement and still dissent. Steel coins were a plainly bad idea when implemented and they remain a plainly bad idea now.
Then don't use them. Simple as pie.
Am I to take it that you'll be protesting by changing your moniker to Gold Wind? ;) (sorry, couldn't resist)
Really, I'm not sure why people are getting this upset over something as trivial as what type of coinage Krynn uses. Gold, steel, ceramic, dollars, pounds, etc. etc. - what does it matter?
The point is to have a system that works well for you. If you don't like transposing from gold to steel, that's fine. Use gold. It doesn't matter.
Anyway, that's my two steel. Or gold. Or whatever. ;)
Because clay coins are equally as silly when using that level of technology as existed pre-Cataclysm.
In previous conversations on this topic, if I remember correctly, we are 5 generations of a paper standard, yes...but we are not 5 generations of representative money. That has been around for thousands of years, supposedly. (I didn't know it at the time, though)
Steel coins were a plainly bad idea introduced purely for metagaming pruposes to strip wealth off of characters transferring from other worlds to the world of Krynn. They didn't do it to make Krynn unique - they did it to screw-over a character in a Greyhawk campaign 21 years ago.
Right...that makes sense. Especially considering that Dragonlance was originally a world separated from the rest of the D&D cosmos...and was always intended to be so by the creators. It wasn't until DLA that TSR finally made their decision to at least hint that it might be possible to get to Krynn from other places, and 2nd Edition before it became official that they were all connected, including Dragonlance.
To suggest that they did it to make all characters coming to Dragonlance from another wolrd poor out of some sort of spite...we'll, now that is silly.
As for the rest of your post...well, it's really just started ranting as opposed to debating it so I don't really think there's anything else I can say.
Yeah I know, but not completely out of the question. It has the advantage of not rusting, and shines up really nice if you just want to show off. It might be good for ceremonial armour.
Yeah, I suppose so. But holy crap would it be heavy. But, then again, a good portion of hte cermonial armor is made out of gold...and that's not light either. So I guess stainless steel wouldn't be out of the question.
I'm not going to pretend though that I knew before all you just said.
It's things that I should have remembered from school, but really it didn't sink in until I started shopping around for a sword (I was taking a European Reinasance martial arts class...so I wanted to get one of my own). I did a lot of research on sword blades and steel and manufacturing processes and such.
I once had a knife break on me when I dropped it on a cement floor for example.
Yep. One of the things I learned in my class is that those display swords that you can buy out of a magazine or on-line or whatever...the ones that are usually based off of some movie weapons or something, they're very dangerous. Because they're so much heavier than a knife blade, it doesn't take much to shatter those blades.
Of course, there wouldn't be any problems at all if Tracy Hickman had gone a little gritter and done away with coins completely (opting for a pig iron trade standard).
That might have been the original idea but they decided to go with coins because a) it was 350 years after the Cataclysm and b) with it being an AD&D game, it would have become to difficult to translate AD&D stuff to Dragonlance.
Once you had the fledgling merchant houses and banking institutions on board, the currency became accepted and stabilized under the new steel standard.
Sounds like a very reasonable timeline to me. As soon as Palanthas swings towards the steel coins (being the center of all commerce on Ansalon, really) I don't think it'd take long before most of the rest of the continent went that way. Although it's possible that gold coins were still accepted at face value in a few places. (like the elven realms and where ever the town of Nowhere is)
It would also explain the references to wizards who try to create steel coins in "Soulforge" and getting the populace angry. After all, only alchemists and wizards can counterfit these coins right?
That's a reasonable explanation. But I'm still a little confused as to why you think a wizard has to be involved at all. Why not just the alchemists?
There we go, Brimstone came up with a reasonable explanation of steel standard currency before and completely independent of me.
Not completely. Most of my thoughts on this came out of the discussions we had last time this came up.
We all love Brimstone right?
HA HA! I don't think that's an accurate statement at all!
We don't use "paper", we use currency - a high tech paper note backed by a central government, an international banking system and which incorporates technology to defend its integrity and is very difficult to counterfeit. It evolved itself as a substitute for gold. It has always been high tech for as long as it has been accepted (bring on the China arguments - I'm ready for ya
Steel Coins would be extremely high tech, because steel is a pain in the butt to shape, engrave or stamp. You have to work at extremely high temperatures, with very skilled artisans. It's not something your local blacksmith can do. So there isn't really any problem with that.
With gold and silver, the protection are the metals' rarity. The technology of the era cannot make the coining of these metals prohibitively difficult in itself - and the governments of the day are little more than city states - exactly the kind of government which is incapable of enforcing currency of a non-precious type, (let alone to be able to resist coining more as it was needed, another fatal flaw in the steel coin theory).
Right, which in my explanation the steel tokens start out as being representative of a good solid gold peice, whose value is guarenteed by the treasury. As for counterfitting steel coins, almost impossible without a huge amount of investment in the process, which probably includes magic. Hence in "Soulforge" the wizards coming to the consensus that it just isn't worth it.
Btw, we ourselves use plated steel coins in this day and age. We don't use silver and nickel anymore.
It is a fine thing to suggest that the need for weapons in a nasty brutish and short life following the Cataclysm occurred for a brief time and made all but iron a needless luxury
Not particularly, if you need weapons then iron would be prized precisely because of its utility.
See, you just didn't read my posts. All the answers were already there for your objections. There is a way to make it make sense.
Sounds like a very reasonable timeline to me. As soon as Palanthas swings towards the steel coins (being the center of all commerce on Ansalon, really) I don't think it'd take long before most of the rest of the continent went that way. Although it's possible that gold coins were still accepted at face value in a few places. (like the elven realms and where ever the town of Nowhere is)
Well we know that the elves still use gold because they didn't trade with the humans after the cataclysm, and we know that ogres still use gold because they don't really grasp theoretical wealth.
Palanthas is the only logical choice, because it was the only place left relatively intact by the cataclysm.
That's a reasonable explanation. But I'm still a little confused as to why you think a wizard has to be involved at all. Why not just the alchemists?
Well, for one, getting the iron hot enough to cast it would require magical fire (unless we have a blast furnace). I also read about about using electricity to make stainless steel, but maybe that person was on crack.
Not completely. Most of my thoughts on this came out of the discussions we had last time this came up.
Ssh! You'll blow the whole deal. ;)
We also know as of the Lord of the Rose that gold is very valued in Palanthas.
May I ask why if steel coins=gold then why is gold less valued than steel? Why won't people accept gold really?
We also know as of the Lord of the Rose that gold is very valued in Palanthas.
well the don't equal each other, steel pieces replaced gold ... so if you look in the PHb and see that a longsword costs 15 gp, in DLCS that would be stp steel instead of gold.
and gold is basically equal to silver or copper (don't recall of the top of my head) ... again this is for DLCS.
basically the value of the dollar dropped dramatically and was replaced by the Yen ... now everyone uses Yen as their standard and the dollar ... is just a has been and are usually found in old treasure hoards (why do I keep wanting to type horde?).
May I ask why if steel coins=gold then why is gold less valued than steel? Why won't people accept gold really?
Ferratus said above:
The benefit of steel peices is that they can't be clipped. Following the Cataclysm, Palanthas which was miraculously spared by the Cataclysm, had a problem of its currency repeatedly crashing due to people clipping the coins, and because they would melt them down everytime the price of gold rose above the currency standard.
And I said:
After the Cataclysm, coin clipping was really becoming rampant. So much so that the gold piece was essentially becoming worthless, not because gold was worthless, but because no one would accept the gold coins anymore.
May I ask why if steel coins=gold then why is gold less valued than steel?
Steel coins = gold coins in other settings. When you see something listed as having a GP value in any sourcebook, transpose that to steel.
Gold coins in Dragonlance do carry some value, just like the cent carries some value in the United States. However, it isn't much.
Why won't people accept gold really?
Do you mean in-world, or people as in players?
From an in-world standpoint, I could see a number of reasons. I'm sure much of the gold at the time of the Cataclysm had the mark of the Kingpriest on it, so that may have been shunned. It could be that steel was rare at the time due the the aftereffects of the Cataclysm, and so it became the standard, which in turn became tradition. There's any number of reasons, some of which may not be wholly logical.
We also know as of the Lord of the Rose that gold is very valued in Palanthas.
By Lord Du Chagne, yes. The text mentions how he hoarded gold, and thought it was a prettier form of currency (for lack of better words). I haven't finished the book yet, so I may be wrong on that, but I don't think the entire city has switched.
Well, for one, getting the iron hot enough to cast it would require magical fire (unless we have a blast furnace). I also read about about using electricity to make stainless steel, but maybe that person was on crack.
Well, the magical fire shouldn't be needed...weapon and armorsmiths get their forges hot enough without magic.
But as for the electricity, I'm not really sure what the procedure is for making stainless steel. Perhaps electricity is needed.
Ssh! You'll blow the whole deal. ;)
Oh...right! Yeah, I came up with this on my own too. See, we came to the same conclusions.
(Terry, I think I just failed my Bluff check...)
It is believed that the Chinese and the Japanese discovered the process of actually making steel around the same time, around the seventh century.
Sorry if this got a little too off-topic, but I have been recently researching the steel making process from melting, to forging, to finishing for work, and figured I'd throw my hat into the ring.
Judging from what I know of the Dragonlance world, I would imagine that any weapons or armor made from steel would be extremely rare, and would primarily be crafted by the dwarves, maybe the elves. I am reminded of the Ergoth trilogy, which, even though it occurred before the Cataclysm, makes Tol's steel blade out to be quite a rarity. Most weapons would probably be crafted out of simple iron, which is easy enough to forge. I would think that in a land with the technological level of Ansalon, steel coins would be somewhat rare, if not as rare as gold and silver, pretty close.
This whole debate has always struck me as somewhat interesting. Before currency, you had the barter system. I wanted your cow. You wanted my seven chickens. We traded, it was all gravy. I'm pretty ignorant on the history of currency, or how it came about, but it seems to me that currency is merely a representation of something of value. If I wanted your cow, why would you want a bunch of shiny pieces of metal instead of my delicious, appetizing chickens? You can't eat metal. The currency is backed with some sort of trust, or some sort of agreement, or is merely the representation of physical wealth. If that's the case, then who cares what it's made of?
I mean, these days I get my paycheck electronically, and I pay all of my bills electronically. Right now I use a bunch of electricity flying magically through the air as currency, and people take it... what's so unbelievable about steel?