--would they even look like standard dragons and avangions? NB
Thri kreens would look different in the early stages, but would gradually assume the same look as the others.....
now if a Cerulean mage or a sun wizard tried to become an advanced being using their own energies..... that would be something entirely new.
I would picture a cerulean advanced being to be something along the lines of a storm elemental almost.... or possibly a thunderbird. (that would fit really well mythology wise.) But they would really be neither dragon nor avangion if they used the Cerulean storm to power their transformation.
Similiarly with a sun wizard...... if you powered the transformation with the sun energy then it would likely create something like a shade or shadow giant for the form.
--say, there, chap, is that a threadcrap in your pocket or are you just happy to see me? NB
Actually, Dragon Kings makes mention of each dragon and avangion looking unique, like no other dragon or avangion in existence. So, yes, while every dragon shares certain physical traits, and the same goes for avangions, each would look different from the others.
--say, there, chap, is that a threadcrap in your pocket or are you just happy to see me? NB
I am aware of that.... (although actually it was the fluff in the pentad books that was saying the forms of the dragons were quite different. In Dragon Kings while the scale distribution and such could be individualized, the actual transformation was quite well defined for what you would look like as you changed stages.)
I was actually stating that while a thri-kreen dragon or avangion would follow a similiar pattern as a human dragon or avangion. (there would be some cosmetic changes but given the extreme nature of the transformations the final forms would be very similiar)
(mind you I love the idea of a thri-kreen dragon being more insect or locust like personally..... it would literally have to be a different type of dragon metamorphosis.)
On the Cerulean, Sun wizards, Black wizards, etc.. as the actual dragon metamorphosis and avangion metamorphosis is generated by the power source you are drawing from, to be a dragon/avangion that can use those other sources you would still need to draw from life energy for the metamorphosis so you would be the same as other dragons/avangions...... Now if you use the other energy source (cerulean energy, the power of the black, the power of the grey, the power of the sun, what have you...) you would become some other form of advanced being entirely. Possibly something never before seen.
I gave my opinions of what a advanced being from those sources might look like in my previous post.
Cerulean Dragon - A cerulean bluish tinge to them, maybe even some storm-like qualities - electric-looking effects or something on them.
Cerulean Avangion - I just don't see this happening. Ceruleans to me, like any "alternate energy source" arcane spellcaster, are much closer to Defilers than Preservers - as I consider the mental state that would tempt a person to utilize this energy (which underlying it all is to become more powerful through effectively exploiting a trick that taps into these otherworldly energies) to be akin to a Defiler who rips the energy from plants without regard to what this does to those plants, in order to make their magic more powerful. Even a Preserver who begins to use these laternate sources, may quickly find themselves able to wield more power a bit more loosly, believing that it's alright just because there is no plants being destroyed. Further - with the Cerulean spellcaster, they have opened themselves, unwittingly or not, to the mind, desires, and controlling impulses of Rajaat. For these reasons, I just don't see an alternative-energy arcane spellcaster becoming an Avangion.
I can see the other races turning into another sort of AB or even avangions but not dragons. Thats just IMO though.
I don't think the energy gained by Ceruleans will ever allow them to become advanced beings, and if they could, Rajaat would have a hayday with them through Tithian.. Shadow wizards would likely become some sort of Shade or Shadow Giant.. (they're almost half way there as it is) Sadira's sun wizard abilities I think of more as a PrC that can be tossed on top of any AB wizard transformation.. in my campaign Hamanu has it, only his is more powerful extending into Epic Levels.. allowing him to absorb energy from purer sorces.. like a Sun Cleric's Gated Energy... using it as a PrC would explain why Sadira is described as going from a 10th level caster to an 18th level caster, she was granted 8 levels in a Prestige class, but only durring the day
( I allow Hamanu to break all sorts of rules, he rocks, cause he doesn't like his transformation) :-)If we're going to say Avangions create their own wellspring of energy, which I rather like, then I'd say they are uniquely Preserver like, gotta suck up the plants, only, not harmfully..
yes, I agree, I'd stick with humans only becoming Dragons or Avangions as well, simply because the original spells were designed for their race.. not a thri-kreen or halfling or dwarf..
Exactly. I have a hard time justifying why Rajaat would design a process that would advance or benefit other races beyond humans. He deemed human the ultimate tool in reaching his desired goals.
Exactly. I have a hard time justifying why Rajaat would design a process that would advance or benefit other races beyond humans. He deemed human the ultimate tool in reaching his desired goals.
At most I would allow Half Elves to go through the process as well, since the original rules allowed them to.
I haven't decided quite yet what I'm going to do for my campaigns though.
Exactly. I have a hard time justifying why Rajaat would design a process that would advance or benefit other races beyond humans. He deemed human the ultimate tool in reaching his desired goals.
Ahh, well, you see - I don't have Rajaat as being the person who designed or developed the Dragon metamorphosis. He made his Champions special, but not Dragons. I have Dregoth being the one who actually developed the spell, he taught it to Borys, who in turn taught it to the others. The one exception to this is Hamanu, which I have that Rajaat *did* give him a specially-modified version of the Dragon metamorphosis.
I also tend to work with the idea that Dregoth is more powerful than Borys was - even if he wasn't undead. Dregoth actually had let the process complete at a "natural" rate, while Borys accelerated the process, and was partially deformed in the process.
Further, I have Oronis being the creator/developer of the Avangion process - borrowing ideas from the Dragon metamorphosis, and then reworking it to be a supreme power for Preserving, rather than Defiling magic.
I never cared for the idea that Rajaat totally made everything - he might be attributed that quality, but I think that the Champions themselves had a hand in some of the mess.
Plus - since Dregoth made the original Dragon spell, rather than Rajaat - I also rule that he didn't necessarily understand all the facets/features of the spell. And that Defilers of other races could develop the spell for themselves - as the spell progression is a rather personal discovery process.
Ahh, well, you see - I don't have Rajaat as being the person who designed or developed the Dragon metamorphosis. He made his Champions special, but not Dragons. I have Dregoth being the one who actually developed the spell, he taught it to Borys, who in turn taught it to the others. The one exception to this is Hamanu, which I have that Rajaat *did* give him a specially-modified version of the Dragon metamorphosis.
I agree with most of that, but feel that Rajaat brought all the Champions to the first level of the metamorphosis. It wasn't till centuries later that Dregoth and Borys had truely understood what the Warbringer had actually done to them.
I agree with most of that, but feel that Rajaat brought all the Champions to the first level of the metamorphosis. It wasn't till centuries later that Dregoth and Borys had truely understood what the Warbringer had actually done to them.
I agree with that, I like the idea of Rajaat creating the Metamorphosis spells, and using them on his champions, other wizards crafting lesser imitations, but the champions having extra abilities, and Hamanu having more abilities than that, as was said in RaFoaDK, the others were imperfect, Hamanu had no flaws..
As I've said, in mine, Hamanu transforms the way a normal character gains levels.. without casting a spell
At most I would allow Half Elves to go through the process as well, since the original rules allowed them to.
I haven't decided quite yet what I'm going to do for my campaigns though.
Half Elves could become Dragons, but not Avangions...
Exactly. I have a hard time justifying why Rajaat would design a process that would advance or benefit other races beyond humans. He deemed human the ultimate tool in reaching his desired goals.
On the other hand, you'd think Oronis would want the Preserver Metamorphosis to be useful to a wide variety of Preservers, not just Humans...
Half Elves could become Dragons, but not Avangions...
On the other hand, you'd think Oronis would want the Preserver Metamorphosis to be useful to a wide variety of Preservers, not just Humans...
My thoughts exactly.
I can see the other races turning into another sort of AB or even avangions but not dragons. Thats just IMO though.
Thats why I stated this originally ;)
Imagine a Dwarf or Mul Dragon, or an Aaracokra Avangion!
a dwarf spellcaster?!?!?! no, such a thing is blocked from my imagination. there's wrong, and then there is wrong :P
i was always of the opinion that racial limitations on classes were part of the nonsensical mess that killed 2E. "You can't go past X level in this class, because you're a dwarf" and statements like that were always ignored by my gamers and I because they just don't make any sense. When the Epic Bureau finally releases the Advanced Being rules, I'll finally be able to have legitimate stats for my main character, the Terminus Vortexa, a Thri-Kreen dragon. Opening up the AB classes to all races will just make things more interesting. Imagine a Dwarf or Mul Dragon, or an Aaracokra Avangion!
I've always wanted to see an Aaracokra Avangion!! (what about a Dray Dragon? woulld anyone notice till he started gaining mass??
) but how would an Aaracokra's mentality change an Avangion?? Or would a regular avangion become more like an Aaracokra?? And has anyone come up with how Avangions handle things like sleep or resting, since they no longer have limbs that support them?? in Dragon Kings it says they float, but how?? Just soar way freaking high to bounce on the winds all night??? Wouldn't that glow give them away?? and if they had an innate levitate ability, why isn't it mentioned?I've always wanted to see an Aaracokra Avangion!! (what about a Dray Dragon? woulld anyone notice till he started gaining mass??
I'd guess that an Aaracokra's mind would alter might likea Humans. I'd also rule that they might have two sets of gossomer wings. As it stands, Avangions float through magical/psionic means - much like how a Beholder does. So, sleeping, they still float. And it is mentioned. Check out Dragon Kings and/or Defilers & Preservers sometime.
Well, it does say they float, that much I knew, but my question was How I dont think it specifies, just leaves it up to us.. which is ok, but makes the rule mongers antzy..
Bah, but I don't want to dig through my books again to show where it says how. It's part of the spell process. It's a magical (or was it psionic?) ability, that effectively is "always on". At least, that was my interpretation, and I haven't looked at it in a while.