First of all, I never said there were no noids in Alphatia: I just don't think there are noids in every Alphatian nation serving wizards.
Last night I read DotE and PWA1 again, and made this discovery : humanoids are officially reported to live only in the Kingdom of Limn. Every other kingdom in the continent of Alphatia doesn't mention any noids.
Now, let's look at Limn. PWA says we can find here orcs, goblins and trolls. We also know that Limn was created only in AC 900, when (I quote from page 51 of PWA1): "a Shiye-Lawr elf-prince named Drushiye and his lover, a dryad druidess named Mellora, realized that there was no place in all the empire of Alphatia for monster-race magic-users to live as Alphatian nobles and contribute their unique magical perspectives to Alphatian learning. They petitioned then Emperor Tylion IV for royal title and possession of the Limn region, and were granted the land by the Emperor's own decree."
So, whatever humanoids living in Alphatia probably either moved to Limn in AC 900, or moved to Limn from other places after AC 900.
My issue is: where do you think all these noids came from, why did they come here and how?
I remind you that Limn's population is around 220000 inhabitants, all of them "monstrous" (save for 1% human and a lot of them demi-humans, let's say 20%). How did they manage to have so many creatures in one region in so few years (average growing rate: 2200 people per year!)?
Do you think Drushiye was able to contact all of the noids and most of the intelligent monsters living in Alphatia and convince them to migrate (magically or otherwise) to Limn, so that Tylion could grant his petition? DO you think he went overseas to fetch new citizens in the KNown World regions?
If he only managed to move the majority of the intelligent monsters dwelling in Alphatia, then when did exactly these humanoids arrive in this continent? Could they be the descendants of the Beastmen hunted by the Blackmoorians who got trapped in the proto-Alphatian continent after the GRoF and evolved into the modern humanoid species as much as the noids of Brun did?? If so, why are there only orcs and goblins and trolls?
Now again, if you read on DotE, the story for Limn is different!
See here, DotE Book 3 page 9:
"Two thousand years ago [BC1000] semi-sentient monsters such as trolls [uh? why are trolls SEMI-sentient??] settled here in great numbers. Fifteen hundred years ago, Alphatian magic-users interested in the ways of non-humans conquered this land - but did not subjugate the monster population. Instead they gave them the same opportunity in their dominions: obey the laws and demostrate magical ability, and you too will be aristocrats."
In Limn's entry in DotE Book 1 then, we can read that Drushiye didn't petition for the creation of the new kingdom. He merely asked Tylion to allow the crowning of a second ruler in Limn to represent the non-human or demi-human population (thus Mellora the dryad came to be their Queen).
Probably the PWA authors made some confusion and wrote their entry accordingly.
So what's the truth? Why did all these noids (semi-sentient monsters?) arrive in BC1000 and from where? Did they come along the Alphatians (very unlikely that they traveled along through the planes)? Or were they part of those migration waves that came from the Broken Lands (the timeline says in BC1000 the BL were overpopulated and this prompted humanoids to migrate especially southwards)? Could they really come this far all across the Alphatian Sea?? I remind you that in BC1000 the whol Soderfjord-Vestland area was under the Nithian rulership, and to get to the Alphatian western coasts the noids should have sailed from the Northern Reaches (where trolls already lived -the same trolls used by Nithians to create gnolls in BC1050) or Norwold...
You see what puzzles me now? Not the fact that there is a cleric of Karaash in Limn, but the whole origin of the noids living in Alphatia.
Do you think Drushiye was able to contact all of the noids and most of the intelligent monsters living in Alphatia and convince them to migrate (magically or otherwise) to Limn, so that Tylion could grant his petition? DO you think he went overseas to fetch new citizens in the KNown World regions?
He wouldn't have had to go quite that far- according to canon maps of the Isle of Dawn (notably the Eastern Countries Trail Map), there are all sorts of humanoids living there- orcs, kobolds, bugbears, etc.
Let's suppose that by 1000 BC the Nithians had quite a lot of humanoids servants (orcs, goblins and trolls) enslaved when they conquered the Northern Reaches. A Nithian Prince decides to settle eastwards of the Isle of Dawn to discover what's there, and he finds the Alphatian continent shortly after the Alphatians' arrival.
So he starts colonizing the Limn region, which is separated from the rest of the continent by high mountains. The noids spread fast, and either because they overthrow the Nithians or because the Alphatians arrive and kill them off, the humanoids are left alone in that region.. up to BC500 when the Alphatians decide to build a nation where non-humans would have the same rights as humans. This could explain why the Alphatians don't exactly know where the humanoids came from or suppose they came of their own will (the Immortals have altered their memories to cancel all traces of Nithians or may have substituted Nithians with Thothians..)
It is stated that Thothia was the eastern extent of Nithia, although, that is repeatedly contradicted in other products and posters musings. But I still don't see why it's so impossible to believe that the humanoids built boats and sailed over. They obviously did it once before getting from Davania to Brun. For that matter they could have stolen the boats from Nithian masters and sailed east past the furthest reach of that empire.
Ah, the wonders of the human brain; correcting what it shouldn't.
Edit for the non-native english speakers: 'roids is U.S. english slang short for either "hemorrhoids" or "steroids"
It seems odd to me only because the "n" keeps turning into an "r" when I read it.
The same thing happens when I read "noids" as well. Can't help it. Stupid involuntary brain functions!
It is stated that Thothia was the eastern extent of Nithia, although, that is repeatedly contradicted in other products and posters musings.
What official products contradict this?
Maybe the Nithians also held some orcs and goblins as prisoners too, and lizardmen... so maybe a big group of slaves took advantage of the big chaos brought by the gnolls' upheaval and they fled together using gnomish or Nithian ships... and they ended up in the Limn area, where they split (or cooperated??) and tried to survive.. until the Alphatians found them and some good fellow decided to protect their rights and founded Limn (the Shaper from IM3 is a good choice.. it also makes sense as an immortal Quest for the Path of Paragon).
The gnomes may have even arrived later (using the same boats they used to escape the kobolds' invasion of the Falun caverns in the V century BC)... just some food for the brain ;)
It's strange that the canon sources never told us anything about the origins of humanoids in continents outside Brun.
And btw, all goblinoids were born in BRUN and later migrated to Davania via Immortals' Arm (according to HW maps), not vice versa ;)
It's strange that the canon sources never told us anything about the origins of humanoids in continents outside Brun.
And btw, all goblinoids were born in BRUN and later migrated to Davania via Immortals' Arm (according to HW maps), not vice versa ;)
Humanoids were created so long ago that they could have spread to any part of the planet by now (and probably have). In addition to the excellent theories suggested earlier in this thread, there may also in periods have been land bridges between the various locations to which the humanoids spread.
Check out the Precataclysmic map I made some time ago: http://www.geocities.com/havardfaa/precataclysmic04.jpg
Håvard
...there may also in periods have been land bridges between the various locations to which the humanoids spread.
Check out the Precataclysmic map I made some time ago:
Good call on the land bridges, Havard! I first seen this map a while ago and I just got to say, nice catch with regards to the Serpent Peninsula being continuous.
The BEASTMEN originated in the old North Polar regions, then were chased westwards by Blackmoor, which in turn was enlarging its western border. the Beastmen migrated to Hyperborea (later called Hyborea, this is confusing), in colder regions where they adapted and survived (BC 3200).
The timeline says that shortly before the cataclysm the Beastmen had been confined to Hyperborea, and later, after the planet's axis shifted, they gathered at Urzud (BC 2400). GAZ10 and HW map both show Urzud in Brun, north of the Borean valley.
It is at this time that the Beastmen start to breed true, and by 2000 BC they had evolved into the current goblinoid species: orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, trolls and ogres (the text adds also giants).
HW map later shows the goblinoids' migration from Urzud to the Cradle and from Urzud to the KW via Norwold (King Loark's Horde), and from the Cradle (in SW Brun) towards two directions: eastwards to the Known World (Wogar's tribe) and southwards across the Arm of the Immortals to Davania.
Since I based myself on these sources, it had always puzzled me how there could have been humanoids in Alphatia and in any of the other isles, since humanoids originated in Brun after the big cataclysms that shaped the continents and no canon source reported their migrations eastwards.
And if we hypothesize that there might be humanoids living in Alphatia and Bellissaria and Skothar because some beastmen might have stopped there during their migrations (even though it is clear they preferred cold places, and these were far from cold in those times), another doubt arises: how come the goblinoid species that live in Alphatia (by canon sources) are only orcs, goblins and trolls?
Since I based myself on these sources, it had always puzzled me how there could have been humanoids in Alphatia and in any of the other isles, since humanoids originated in Brun after the big cataclysms that shaped the continents and no canon source reported their migrations eastwards.
Bear in mind that there is at least one case for ocean-going humanoids- the Kara-Kara of the islands off the coast of Thyatis (between Thyatis and the Isle of Dawn). The Kara-Kara are noted as being related to orcs (and they look like orcs), so at some point orcs, at least, seemingly learned seafaring crafts, and were able to populate several islands/island chains in the Sea of Dread.
1. They could certainly be the descendants of the slaves of an old sorcerer who got killed during his travels and never returned to his lair. this left the orcs free to do whatever they wanted and they eventually evolved into kara-kara.
2. They are the descendants of some beastmen held as guinea pigs big Blackmoor scientists (this explains why they are similar to orcs but they're GREEN) who survived after the GRoF and lived in near complete isolation in their island in the Sea of Dread (it's actually closer to the Thyatian coasts than to Tanegioth, anyway).
3. They are descendants of a group of outerplanar orcs who got stuck on that island when they were summoned by some powerful mage who later abandoned them or was killed by the devil swine who rules them in X8.
It's easier to explain the kara-kara in X8 because they're so few and not "orcs".
It's harder for me to explain how thousands of humanoids reached faraway continents when such huge migrations are not reported. ;)
The Goblinoids' saving trait is their fecundity. Perhaps the goblinoids in these places quickly reached into the thousands because they didn't make war as much as the main beastmen hoard?
I was just thinking along the same lines. It didn't have to be a mass migration into Alphatia to end up with thousands of humanoids. And with such a large land mass as Alphatia and (presumedly) a low population of other sentient creatures, including humans, the goblinoids could spread easily without being forced to fight among themselves.
The landfall of the Alphatians would definately have an effect on the humanoids, and I'd like to think some of them where driven underground. ;)
DotE says that the humanoids were already there by BC 500, when some Alphatian nobles discovered them and decided to give them an opportunity to earn equal status among the other citizens.
You also have to think about the location: Limn is not exactly a big area. It's mainly a long coast confined to the west, north and south by high mountains. And we have dragons living here too. So I guess there would be a lot of competition between the goblinoids and the local residents.
Anyway, I'm not suggesting a migration en masse to justify their presence there, but when you have around 200000 people after 1500-2000 years, thinking about the high mortality rate and low life expectancy among goblinoids, we should at least expect that the first wave of colonists would be around the thousand (or hundreds), not a dozen people on a boat. ;)
It's also interesting the point Hugin made about going underground. There's nothing official, not even a suggestion about what lies in the Alphatian underdark... but after WotI I doubt the immortals took steps to raise from the dead the "underground dwellers" in the HW :P
You also have to think about the location: Limn is not exactly a big area. It's mainly a long coast confined to the west, north and south by high mountains. And we have dragons living here too. So I guess there would be a lot of competition between the goblinoids and the local residents.
Dragons and goblinoids tend to get along just fine, as long as the gobbies do what the dragons tell them.... ;)
Maybe the goblinoids were the servants of a powerful dragon who brought over more from Brun to increase his power. Perhaps he was slain just before the creation of Limn, his killers being the ones who set up the kingdom to keep the humanoids in one place?
Anyway, I'm not suggesting a migration en masse to justify their presence there, but when you have around 200000 people after 1500-2000 years, thinking about the high mortality rate and low life expectancy among goblinoids, we should at least expect that the first wave of colonists would be around the thousand (or hundreds), not a dozen people on a boat. ;)
You forget that goblinoids tend to have alot of babies...
Also, the references you make to the Blackmoor era, probably do not refer to *all* humanoids. When it says the Humanoid population has been confined to Hyperborea, it might make more sense to read it as *most of the population*. I doubt even the Blackmoorians at that time could accound for every singe individual. Especially since goblinoids are good at hiding, and like living under ground etc. A few thousand individuals living scattered on the Alphatian peninsula could easily have been forgotten. 5000 years later, their numbers have grown quite a bit!
It's also interesting the point Hugin made about going underground. There's nothing official, not even a suggestion about what lies in the Alphatian underdark... but after WotI I doubt the immortals would have took steps to raise the "underground dwellers" in the HW :P
Interesting....
Håvard