SoS release date May 2005?
SoS release date May 2005, yesyesyes.
Cheers,
Cam
--Tamora Amberleaf
But this time it's not SP's fault. They are working very hard to get us their products and I will be surely ordering some things from them in my new capacity as a game store role playing book buyer. :-)
--Tamora Amberleaf
I'm not pointing fingers, just "voicing" my displeasure that its been almost 6 months since this book was slated to hit the shelves.
This is not acceptable regardless on whose to blame.
From the consumer's standpoint, this is unfortunate, especially where the first series of uber-modules from the original is concerned. You wait, and you anxiously look forward with continuing the story, only to wait some more.
From the game designers' standpoint, it is also unfortunate as they want to try to do the best product possible in a timely basis, but things occasionally creep up that prohibit this from happening.
Thing is, this isn't something that Sov. Press is doing on purpose. They are a small company with limited resources and they are doing their best. That's all we can ask.
What I can say too is that Sovereign Press has taken many lessons learned from Key of Destiny, and implementing them in this product. I think you will find Spectre to be a lot of fun.
Patience, my friends. The adventure will soon continue!
). I'm just concerned over the huge delay on this product.I'm sure it will be worth the wait. I'm not try to be a jerk (no more than I usually am anyway
What gets Cap'n Helm over these matters is talking like a pirate! Arr... :D
What gets Cap'n Helm over these matters is talking like a pirate! Arr... :D
I prefer Mr. T speak. "Quit your jibba jabba fool!" :D
---Tamora Amberleaf
Who out there is actually effected by this...I mean it hasn't been a year since KoD came out yet? (meaning your game has been held up because you've finished KoD and Chapter 1 of SoS) Just curious. I personally am no where near being held up by it...but then again, I started really late.
---Tamora Amberleaf
Maybe get someone else in the group to run a few sessions in order to give you a break. Try a new setting for a while (Eberron is cool), or maybe try a new rules set (Castles and Crusades or Arcana Evolved). Heck, run a one-shot DL game with modified Arcana Evolved rules and see how it works out.
That way, when you're done with the interim game, you'll feel more refressed going into Spectre.
It gives me time to go over the adventure and try my best to run it.
Personally, I'm dissappointed it hasnt been out yet, but I understand why it hasnt. And I can't wait til it comes out.
Maybe get someone else in the group to run a few sessions in order to give you a break. Try a new setting for a while (Eberron is cool), or maybe try a new rules set (Castles and Crusades or Arcana Evolved).
Cam, my wife, and I played a Blue Rose session last night. Very interesting, worth a look. It's a good candidate for a short interim game.
I'm not pointing fingers, just "voicing" my displeasure that its been almost 6 months since this book was slated to hit the shelves.
This is not acceptable regardless on whose to blame.
Sighs.
As far as I am concerned -- and my concern is the only concern to me, not yours -- I rather have a better-written, well-edited, high-quality late product OVER a badly-written, poorly-edited, poor-quality on-time product.
So of the two statements -- and I forbid you to say both -- which is more important to you?
1. Better-written, well-edited, high-quality LATE product.
2. Badly-written, poorly-edited, low-quality ON-TIME product.
P.S. To Sovereign Press: You don't have to make all your products in hardcover. I can do with a softcover perfect-bound Knights of Solamnia and Minotaurs of Krynn books just fine. :D
I've actually debated about doing this very thing since I havent really looked at Key of Destiny much. I figure when they all get done, I'll take a look, so if I can get them cheap on ebay or something..and maybe play through. Until then, it just seems easier to make my own adventures and play through those. Granted it takes work and time to make up those adventures and you dont need to do so with Key of Destiny, etc. But in this way, you never have to worry about needing to take "breaks" either.
Also another way to get around the little breaks in between the adventures is to award Experience points depending on the DM. Thats pretty much how my group gets XP now.. I give them exactly how much I want, no matter what they do. That means PC's wont level up automatically for fighting certain things, etc. They still level up pretty good though. I just find in this way if I need to slow them down at all for any reason, its easily done. If I feel they did something extraordinary then I give a lot of XP, if they took on something that should give them like 6,000 XP and I dont feel they get that much, I reduce it. It sounds kind of harsh, but really isnt. It helps me control the game a little bit more (and I know that sounds bad but they truly can do a lot of things most DM's wouldnt allow heh), so its not so bad.
Since I dont use the Adventures(at this time), the delay doesnt affect me really too much. When the gamebooks are delayed, I get a little annoyed but none of them are something that is "needed" to play Dragonlance, so it doesnt bother me overall. Just things like the Towers of High Sorcery, etc are nice having earlier than later. But delays do happen, and its always preferable to get the products when they are well written, etc.. so delays would need to be dealt with. Personally, I've suggested it before, but SP should just add like 2-3 months to any of their product's projected release date. That way if the thing was done early..hey no one will complain about that. But if it gets behind schedule for whatever reason, no problem.. extra months were "padded" in there for such a reason.
Have a vampire slam everybody a couple times to teach em that they're not as bad as they think they are. This suits 2 purposes:
1-puts them back into a more manageable level for the upcoming adventure so they don't walk all over it, and;
2-gives them an enemy to take care of in the future if a delay happens again between the 2nd and 3rd volumes
Pushed back yet again (third time if I'm not mistaken).
LoL! I knew it!
Anyway, Happy gaming to those still playing DL!
~~~
Sighs.
As far as I am concerned -- and my concern is the only concern to me, not yours -- I rather have a better-written, well-edited, high-quality late product OVER a badly-written, poorly-edited, poor-quality on-time product.
So of the two statements -- and I forbid you to say both -- which is more important to you?
1. Better-written, well-edited, high-quality LATE product.
2. Badly-written, poorly-edited, low-quality ON-TIME product.
I have no problem with a minor delay here and there, but pushed back 3 times? Thats a bit much if you ask me.
Or Halo 2 which was also delayed nearly a year, and Half Life 2.
Or Green Lantern: Rebirth from DC which has missed months in its 6 month run...
Delays happen, all the time. From leaders in their industries. Sovereign is a small publishing company made up of people who care about what they're publishing, they want to get as many high quality products to Dragonlance fans as they can. Of course they're going to undertake ambitious projects, and they've taken a little longer than planned. Oh well that's happened to companies much bigger than Sovereign.
Don't get me wrong, I've been vexed by the delay, my players love the Age of Mortals campaign and want to keep going, but I've reached the point where they are too high level, and if I run any more sidequests I'm going to have to rewrite every encounter, something I don't really want to do.
What confuses me is I remember reading SoS's release being may at least a month ago... so why's everyone up in arms now?
HOoTs is coming out in *gasp* June!
Trust me, we like getting products out on store shelves. That's what pays the bills around here!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
So of the two statements -- and I forbid you to say both -- which is more important to you?
1. Better-written, well-edited, high-quality LATE product.
2. Badly-written, poorly-edited, low-quality ON-TIME product.
That's one hell of an assumption. LATE never guarantees high-quality. KoD, in my opinion, was not a well-edited product. I think we can all agree it was a late product.
I love these gaming products as much as anyone. However, I'm not going to pretend a delay doesn't disappoint me.
What confuses me is I remember reading SoS's release being may at least a month ago... so why's everyone up in arms now?
I seem to remember this too, like around the end of Feb I saw that date...
What confuses me is I remember reading SoS's release being may at least a month ago... so why's everyone up in arms now?
So are you saying it is the consumers fault for not knowing the product was going to be delayed yet again, even though the last date given--before "this" delay--was April 2005 ?
If so, I find that to be ludicrous; especially since this product in particular(i.e. Spectre of Sorrows) has been delayed several times already. Know this, the consumer, whom purchases the product, can not be faulted for delayed releases. That(i.e. delayed releases) is a company problem.
~~~
So are you saying it is the consumers fault
He's saying that he is surprised folks are bringing this up when it's been made aware of earlier.
You should know by now that expected release dates and actual release dates do not necessarily match up for all kinds of reasons, LoI. An expected release date is almost always something the company hopes for, but the reality is that no final date (and that's the only official date that matters) can be confirmed until the printer tells them when that is. All other expected dates are just that - expectations that the consumer can use as a current benchmark. If it changes, it changes. Don't expect hard facts until the printer furnishes them.
As Jamie has said before, this isn't a magazine publishing business where consumers have a subscription to the product with a pre-arranged expectation of delivery. It's a book publishing business, based on a licensed property, handled by a small company that operates out of a small office with very few employees, with a lot of freelancers. They really want the books to come out so that it pays for the bills and future releases can be budgeted, so hopefully all conspiracy theories and accusations of consumer unfaithfulness have been thrown out by now.
Cheers,
Cam
He's saying that he is surprised folks are bringing this up when it's been made aware of earlier.
Actually this is what he said:
What confuses me is I remember reading SoS's release being may at least a month ago... so why's everyone up in arms now?
In other words, why are people upset now when the delay was announced on date X ? Which is still another subtle way of telling the customer "You should not be upset, because they announced that it was going to be late again on month X", or, "If you did not know(that it was going to be delayed again), it was announced, so your bad."
I stand by my statement that the customer can never be blamed for product delays. Only the company can be blamed for that.
Of course SoS is late, as I knew it would be. As a matter-of-fact I have come to expect every SP product to have several delays, not that I am trying to take a shot at them; it is just what else can one be expected to think when the majority of their products are always late ? My gaming group and several other local groups have agreed on this phenomenon with v.3.5 DL products.
My point however, concerning the statement by Nived, is that die-hard DL fans cannot put this off on any of the customers. Again to avoid any personal name-calling, flaming, etc(which usually results when someone voices the reality of the situation in message board forums).--no hard feeling towards SP or Nived--just clarifying the standpoint.
~~~
In other words, why are people upset now when the delay was announced on date X ? Which is still another subtle way of telling the customer "You should not be upset, because they announced that it was going to be late again on month X", or, "If you did not know(that it was going to be delayed again), it was announced, so your bad."
It's a not very subtle way of asking "why is this only coming up now after it was revealed a month ago", and that's not exactly an attack on the consumer, it's a question he's asking the board members.
Thinly-veiled threats and hidden messages aren't actually the stock and trade of people around here, you know.
Cheers,
Cam
... Which is still another subtle way of telling the customer "You should not be upset, because they announced that it was going to be late again on month X", or, "If you did not know(that it was going to be delayed again), it was announced, so your bad."
Or maybe he was just expressing mild surprise that it's an issue now. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
I hate to say it, but announcing the delay doesn't lessen the disappointment of the fan base any. I'm not trying to blame anyone. I'm just trying to convey my disappointment.
I hear ya. Nobody likes delays.
I'm optimistic the final product will kick butt, though.
It's a not very subtle way of asking "why is this only coming up now after it was revealed a month ago",
Which is the same as this: "In other words, why are people upset now when the delay was announced on date X ? Which is still another subtle way of telling the customer "You should not be upset, because they announced that it was going to be late again on month X"
Sysane is disappointed, as are others, that the product was delayed again. Poster X then responds with a question which infers that one should not be upset now, since the product delay was announced, again, in month X.
Basically, whether they announced it or not does not mean everyone knew about the announcement. Most expected it to be out when they said it would be out(April 2005) during the last delay. Also, SP announcing another date does not change the fact that the product was indeed delayed again, which is the reason why customers are upset again.
When you announce a date, change it, announce another date, change that, and start repeating this phenomenon several times consumers are going to get upset, it is human nature.
and that's not exactly an attack on the consumer, it's a question he's asking the board members.
He's telling him he should not be upset because it was announced in month X. That is an attack on an upset customer, as if there is no reason why the customer should be upset, saying "Well since the company announced it on date X", that the customer should just accept it(and not be upset).
Again, people are going to be upset when products keep getting delayed. I have no idea why they are being delayed, but I do know that they are being delayed time and time again. Maybe it is just the SP curse.
Thanks for the responses.
~~~
I hate to say it, but announcing the delay doesn't lessen the disappointment of the fan base any. I'm not trying to blame anyone. I'm just trying to convey my disappointment.
This is still appreciated, though. Disappointment implies a desire to see the product, rather than just an out and out slam on the people making the product being deficient.
Cheers,
Cam
This is still appreciated, though. Disappointment implies a desire to see the product, rather than just an out and out slam on the people making the product being deficient.
I am (as well as many others are) very eager for this.
He's telling him he should not be upset because it was announced in month X. That is an attack on an upset customer, as if there is no reason why the customer should be upset, saying "Well since the company announced it on date X", that the customer should just accept it(and not be upset).
You're putting words in other peoples' mouths, man.
Let's let Nived explain what he meant.Again, people are going to be upset when products keep getting delayed. I have no idea why they are being delayed, but I do know that they are being delayed time and time again. Maybe it is just the SP curse.
Jamie has given explanation enough before. And really, the business affairs of Sov. Press are theirs and theirs alone.
Conveying disappointment is fine. Constructive criticism is fine. Slamming Sovereign Press every single time a product is late is not cool by any means.
I would suggest, LoI, that if you are so dissatisfied with Sovereign Press, that you do yourself a favor and move on to something else. This way, if there is a late product, it won't rain on your parade. :raincloud
You only see what you want to see in other's posts so I'm not going to bother with an explaination. It would be beyond pointless with you, you argue around in circles about non-points and refuse to ever see someone elses point of view. I have better things to do with my time.
My bottom line. I'll be buying Spectre of Sorrows whenever it comes out.
Jamie has given explanation enough before. And really, the business affairs of Sov. Press are theirs and theirs alone.
LoL!
Then in the same vein, you(as in any company) cannot become upset when customers display their anger at products consistently being late. You cannot say don't blame the company, don't get upset just play something else, and in the same breath when the consumer says "Why shouldn't I be upset they were late again ?", tell them "The companies business affairs are theirs and theirs alone."
That's just being fair. If customers should let SP have their business then SP, and their supporters, should let consumers express their dissapointment(like Sysane has) when things are delayed continously.
Conveying disappointment is fine. Constructive criticism is fine. Slamming Sovereign Press every single time a product is late is not cool by any means.
Who is slamming SP ? Stating that when a product is consistently delayed people are going to get upset, does not qualify as "slamming SP"; it simply means when you give people a date, don't stick to it, and continue to not stick to dates consumers will get upset. Human nature, not slamming. You seem to be taking this personally.
I would suggest, LoI, that if you are so dissatisfied with Sovereign Press, that you do yourself a favor and move on to something else.
Where did I state that I am "so dissatisfied with Sovereign Press?" Now who is putting words in whose mouth ? Again, you seem to be taking this on an extremely personal level.
Also, I already play Eberron. This in no way means that I do not intend to buy the SoS module as well. As a matter-of-fact, I told Cam sometime ago that even though I was now running Eberron, I was going to buy the SoS module as well. I am re-thinking that now, but I had stated--to Cam-- that I would buy it once it was out.
Know this, Someone being upset over DL product delays(not saying that "I" am since I run Eberron anyway.) also does not mean that they can no longer/or no longer wish to buy DL products. It would actually mean the opposite, someone is not going to get upset over something they do not want.
This way, if there is a late product, it won't rain on your parade. :raincloud
It rained on Sysane's parade, not mine. I already said I expected this(i.e. the delays), Sysane said he was dissapointed. Scroll up and read. Oh and could you kill the personal attacks, please ?
~~~
I love it when words are put in my mouth Lord of Illusion, I'm so glad you know what I ment.
I apologize if I misinterpreted your comment.
It would be beyond pointless with you, you argue around in circles about non-points and refuse to ever see someone elses point of view. I have better things to do with my time.
Just to let you know argueing that "you are not going to argue" still qualifies as argueing. I am game for just letting it go if you are.
My bottom line. I'll be buying Spectre of Sorrows whenever it comes out.
I felt this way last month, truly, now I am not sure whether I will(purchase the product); although I know it will be good since Cam wrote it. Based on what was in the preview it seems like it will be excellent. I just don't want to jump back into DL and have to start explaining why their characters cannot advance due to delays, besides I am putting alot into my Eberron set-up now anyway.
Happy gaming Nived!
~~~
Then in the same vein, you(as in any company) cannot become upset when customers display their anger at products consistently being late. You cannot say don't blame the company, don't get upset just play something else, and in the same breath when the consumer says "Why shouldn't I be upset they were late again ?", tell them "The companies business affairs are theirs and theirs alone."
I feel that customers have the right to express dissatisfaction when a product is late.
At the same time, I don't really see where the reason behind lateness is anybody's business but the company's (used generically here, not referring to Sov. Press specifically). Really, all one should reasonably expect from a company that has late products is just, "We apologize, our product is delayed due to internal affairs. Rest assured, we are working as hard as possible to get the product out in a timely manner."
What isn't our business are things like financial issues, creator conflicts, etc.
Where did I state that I am "so dissatisfied with Sovereign Press?"
You may not have used the word "dissatisfied" specifically, but you have conveyed a tone of dissatisfaction.
It rained on Sysane's parade, not mine. I already said I expected this(i.e. the delays), Sysane said he was dissapointed. Scroll up and read. Oh and could you kill the personal attacks, please ?
I'm sorry if you get the impression that I'm attacking you. That is not my intent.
Whatever the case, let's move on from this line of discussion. I don't think this back-and-forth on the product being late will help anyone.
I feel that customers have the right to express dissatisfaction when a product is late.
At the same time, I don't really see where the reason behind lateness is anybody's business but the company's (used generically here, not referring to Sov. Press specifically). Really, all one should reasonably expect from a company that has late products is just, "We apologize, our product is delayed due to internal affairs. Rest assured, we are working as hard as possible to get the product out in a timely manner."
What isn't our business are things like financial issues, creator conflicts, etc.
I agree, and to tell the truth, you are usually quite receptive to people that feel they have been shafted by product delays. However, there are some that only agree with half of what you wrote. They usually jump down the throats of the innocent consumers, but run to the defense of the company--whether guilty or innocent.
You may not have used the word "dissatisfied" specifically, but you have conveyed a tone of dissatisfaction.
Maybe you misinterpreted my posts--as I misinterpreted Nived's question--it happens.
Know this, I am always a bit heavy-handed in my posts, it is just the way I convey my messages online I guess. *shrugs*
In all actuality, I could care less if SoS is delayed another year, but I wanted to convey that I understand--and sympathize with--anyone that says they do have a right to be dissapointed.
I'm sorry if you get the impression that I'm attacking you. That is not my intent.
Whatever the case, let's move on from this line of discussion. I don't think this back-and-forth on the product being late will help anyone.
Agreed, apology accepted. Please accept mine as well, moving on.
~~~
Lets move onto a more constructive avenue of discussion before we get another thread about the Age of Mortals modules locked.
Maybe we can get Cam to spill some info... I do believe I read on the Dragonlance.com boards something about Draconians riding dinosaurs in SoS... hrmmmmmm?
Maybe we can get Cam to spill some info... I do believe I read on the Dragonlance.com boards something about Draconians riding dinosaurs in SoS... hrmmmmmm?
Wouldn't it be cool to have teaser trailers for adventure modules? I've heard of some folks doing them in Flash for their homebrews. (I doubt it's in SP's license, or in their budget even if it were.)
Wouldn't it be cool to have teaser trailers for adventure modules? I've heard of some folks doing them in Flash for their homebrews. (I doubt it's in SP's license, or in their budget even if it were.)
I've seen teaser trailers for comic books, and I believe Monte Cook used them with Arcana Unearthed, or some other product of Malhavoc's.
It can be done, but I don't know if the resources are there.
*Click*