Look it up here: http://www.dragonlance.com/products/SVP-4204.aspx
When are we gonna get a taste for some of these revisions?
I just read about this on dragonlance.com. It said, "we are presenting all-new versions of the classic adventures." and also, "The adventures are being completely revised, drawing on twenty years of DRAGONLANCE history, incorporating material most recently featured in the Silver Anniversary edition of the adventures."
Look it up here: http://www.dragonlance.com/products/SVP-4204.aspx
When are we gonna get a taste for some of these revisions?
Obvisously you're not going to see preview material or learn much more until we get further along in the production schedule. It's the last product of the year!
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
I was sad to see that the Adventure Game got caned, but I'm glad you guys were able to salvage the project and are making a complete adventure mod out of it. I've always wanted to run or play the original adventures ever since I picked up Dragons of Autumn Twilight, thanks for giving me and my group the chance to do so.
They're all gonna pee thier pants... :bounce:
cookies to you and yours Jamie
For example, one of the downsides to the original mods was that you had to play one of the pregenerated Heroes of the Lance. While I hope they're still available to play, I'd also like to see the possibility of playing one's own characters through the mod so that way they can be the heroes.
What are some things you guys would like to see in Dragons of Autumn?
Still one should be weary, we don't want a "Greedo shooting first" incident with the update.
I'm excited by some of the possibilities this offers.
For example, one of the downsides to the original mods was that you had to play one of the pregenerated Heroes of the Lance. While I hope they're still available to play, I'd also like to see the possibility of playing one's own characters through the mod so that way they can be the heroes.
Actually there is a misconception that you HAD to play the Heroes of the Lance in the original modules. There were guidelines in each module, even DL1, about how to proceed with a party of original characters. It won't be difficult at all to do the same, making it where you can use the Heroes of the Lance or a new group.
I'm interested in seeing how this turns out.
The biggest change, I'd think, would be that d20 modules are written for only 4 adventurers (where as the original mods were for more like 6 to 8). How will that change things? Will it still be important for certain HotL to come along with the party even if just as NPCs (as in the original mods?)
I'm interested in seeing how this turns out.
This was also handled in the original modules. Although there were 8 pregenerated characters in DL1, and you pick up Gilthanas and Tika later, much is made of the player of Goldmoon using Riverwind as a henchman NPC (what would now be known as a cohort) and so forth. When I played through the modules, we had 4 players, and the others were NPCs.
Laurana and Elistan become playable PCs at the beginning of DL6, the second book of the module series. That's when the Heroes split up, and Derek and Aaron join the group. A lot of this party shuffling occurs later, as well, when Kronn and Serinda show up in DL12.
Cheers,
Cam
Have multiple versions of the pregenerated Heroes of the Lance, so that even the group dynamic can be new, but still keeping the basic archetypes represented. Like in addition to having Riverwind and Goldmoon including a Nordmaar Barbarian couple who could fill the same role. In addition to Raistlin and Caramon, include a sickly mage and buff warrior who are husband and wife instead of twins. They'd have the same attachment to one another and provide the same benefit to the group, but things would be decidedly different if the DM opted for them instead of the twins. I'm basically thinking of these characters as NPC's to pad the group, not for the players to just play instead of the iconic Companions. It'd be a cool way to help DM's create that "Ultimate Dragonlance" revision that would move from the novels a bit, while still letting others run the same old story.
It would also send a clear message of "You can play the Heroes of the Lance, you can play alt.Heroes of the Lance (or Ultimate HotL), or you can play your own." One extra set of options would take some of the heat off the stigma that its a story only for Margaret and Tracy's original characters, I believe.
I'd also like to see suggestions on different ways of playing the heroes, but with the same starting points. There's nothing stopping someone, eg, from playing a Raistlin who switches to the White Robes.
And since it's 3.5, there will be many more options, like Raistlin multiclassing as rogue, or Caramon taking a level of wizard.
For those afraid of railroading, I'd suggest the type of thing that Necromancer Games does where lots of different side quests are made available that aren't necessarily detailed to any great degree (maybe have sidebars that give possible ideas to the DM for other things the PCs can do). The main adventure could stay the same, but with a multitude of side quests that could be undertaken, players wouldn't feel railroaded.
I actually like the originals and the only major changes I'd recommend would be tying things together better and maybe developing more areas rather than jumping straight from major encounter to major encounter, as per the novels.
So if I am reading the product description correctly this will take the first 4 original modules, DL1-4? Or will it include DL5, which was a Sourcebook?
Dragons of Autumn will include the story of DL1-4. There is no need for DL5, because all of its material has been incorporated into various sourcebooks--especially the DLCS and War of the Lance. The only thing we're planning to include inspired by DL5 is some really cool character sheets for the original Heroes.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
The only thing we're planning to include inspired by DL5 is some really cool character sheets for the original Heroes.
Is it going to have new full color art? Or will it just be those recycled black and white inks (now colored) like we had in WotL.
Don't get me wrong, those drawings are now, and will forever be what the Heroes are to me...but it'd be nice to see some new art of them by their original art designer.
I'd like the adventure to keep as much as possible to the spirit of the originals. I'm not looking for a lot of changes. I definitely want all the original characters to be presented.
Me too. While I would love to see further options detailed, I'd like it to keep to the spirit of the original adventures more than it keeps to the spirit of the novels. Mind you, I love the novels, but the original modules had a certain charm... maybe it's just nostalgia.
Is it going to have new full color art? Or will it just be those recycled black and white inks (now colored) like we had in WotL.
We could also use some new maps.... :angelhide
---Tamora Amberleaf
We could also use some new maps.... :angelhide
Very true. Gotta switch from the hex to the square tiles.
I don't suppose you happen to know a fantasy world cartographer, do ya Kip? ;)
For example, let's say someone played a minotaur or an ogre. Maybe someone could play a Tarmak who somehow managed to make his way to Ansalon before Ariakan discovered the race.
Plus, there's prestige classes to consider for down the line too. What if Raistlin was replaced by a Kagonesti sylvan mage who hated civilization? What if Goldmoon was replaced by a chorister?
I think it would be quite interesting to see how the adventures would play out with a different group dynamic. It should be quite fun!
I played a Kagonesti Ranger with the 2E Justifier kit and the other player was more of a swashbuckling fighter, IIRC. The DM though the twins were overdone so he combined them into one character-a very conflicted warrior/mage who would one day become a time traveling lich.
We axed Tanis and the DM replaced Tas with a kender of his own. Otherwise the rest of the Companions were pretty much accounted for as NPC's. But just those changes made for some wildly different and often times even more exciting situations than the books themselves.
That's one reason it always amuses me when people complain of the original modules and their nefarious "railroading." Try running a novel as a module. Talk about constraint. But we didn't think twice about it. Sometimes the DM just went chapter by chapter, reading from the text, and sometimes we made him...work a little harder.
:bounce:
:pile:
AMAZING!
Could make me old battleaxe to return from Taladas to Ansalon...
At least for a while...That's one reason it always amuses me when people complain of the original modules and their nefarious "railroading."
The railrodaing in DL1 is legendary for a reason. It is not only a railroad, it is an INEPTLY DONE railroad and one of the best examples of bad game design you can find.
Examples:
1 - The Centaurs bring the PCs to the ForestMaster no matter what;
2 - The Elves at the White Rage will MARCH THE PCs AT SWORDPOINT to Darkenwood - for no good reason.
3 - The Highseeker Council in Haven will beg the PCs to bring a magical artifact that HEALS PEOPLE to Xak Tsaroth for NO GOOD REASON AT ALL.
4- The DragonArmy advance will paint the PCs into a corner forcing them to go to Xak Tsaroth.
5 - Not quite a Railroad - (but still greatly annoying) a wood in the middle of 3 population centres a day's walk on three sides is supposed to be a haunted forest from which none return for 350 years if they enter - and this ends up being a non-issue if it's a PC who walks into Darken Wood.
By the time you get the PCs to the Cursed Lands of the swamp and Xak Tsaroth, the module makes sense.
At virtually every point prior to that in the module, the design is broken. It is a HORRIBLE design that needs to be fixed. I will be sorely disappointed if this opportunity to rework DL1 is lost.
The railrodaing in DL1 is legendary for a reason. It is not only a railroad, it is an INEPTLY DONE railroad and one of the best examples of bad game design you can find.
Examples:
1 - The Centaurs bring the PCs to the ForestMaster no matter what;
2 - The Elves at the White Rage will MARCH THE PCs AT SWORDPOINT to Darkenwood - for no good reason.
3 - The Highseeker Council in Haven will beg the PCs to bring a magical artifact that HEALS PEOPLE to Xak Tsaroth for NO GOOD REASON AT ALL.
4- The DragonArmy advance will paint the PCs into a corner forcing them to go to Xak Tsaroth.
5 - Not quite a Railroad - (but still greatly annoying) a wood in the middle of 3 population centres a day's walk on three sides is supposed to be a haunted forest from which none return for 350 years if they enter - and this ends up being a non-issue if it's a PC who walks into Darken Wood.
By the time you get the PCs to the Cursed Lands of the swamp and Xak Tsaroth, the module makes sense.
At virtually every point prior to that in the module, the design is broken. It is a HORRIBLE design that needs to be fixed. I will be sorely disappointed if this opportunity to rework DL1 is lost.
Context is always important. Remember that when Dragons of Despair came out, most RPG adventures before it had "open" choices by letting the party decide which door to open first and which monsters to kill. Opening up to epic storytelling was a big step, and while not perfect, was still a breath of fresh air in the crowded list of standard dungeon crawls.
One thing I've learned about adventure design is that it has a lot less to do with true choice for the players but is really about maintaining the illusion of choice. The players may decide to completely ignore adventure hooks, travel in the opposite direction of the prepared story, or kill an important NPC the moment he stops to speak with the party. (Read an issue of Knights of the Dinner Table for dozens of easy examples.) Even relatively "open" adventures really still have a somewhat linear plot, but a little flexibility and a carrot-and-stick approach to choices can make things much easier to swallow than plot shoehorning.
Will the the new version of DL1 be more flexible? Absolutely. But will it have detailed instructions of how to deal with every possible decision the party might make? Nope. For one thing it's impossible, and even if it were DL1 would become the size of The World's Largest Dungeon. For another, dealing with groups that want to strike out in an unexpected directions is forever the duty of the DM. I ran originally ran DL1 nineteen years ago with a chaotic group that was constantly doing the unexpected. Yet the little 32-page adventure gave me all the tools I needed, and I was only eleven years old. The goal is improvement--but if you're expecting an ever-expanding adventure path that deals with what might happen if the heroes join the dragonarmies, you'll be disappointed.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
Context is always important. Remember that when Dragons of Despair came out, most RPG adventures before it had "open" choices by letting the party decide which door to open first and which monsters to kill. Opening up to epic storytelling was a big step, and while not perfect, was still a breath of fresh air in the crowded list of standard dungeon crawls.
Jamie, I think a "context" that is also worth remembering in this regard was typified on two epic threads on ENworld.org on the past two weeks. I know Trampas and Cam both posted in them as well as I did, so I expect you saw the threads too.
The "context" in this sense was largely a negative visceral response by dozens and dozens of gamers to some very bad railroading experiences twenty years ago with DL1 (and some subsequent modules, but mostly DL1).
The legacy that the original DL1 left with many, many players was a profound unhappiness with the railroading nature of the module and an inability to effect the outcome. This legacy was clearly exacerbated by the DMs running the module for these players, but the legacy is there and it's real.
Please do not misunderstand me. I am not a "free-form" roleplaying advocate. I railroad my players all the time. I believe that the best and strongest games come from a strong plotline. Invariably, that requires a railroad.
In CRPG terms, this is highlighted by the difference in game experiences between Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and a free form game like Morrowind.
One is a railroad, the other is a free form experience that is almost entirely without a plot. One was game of the year, the other ended up in bargain bins 4 months after ship. Story matters.
So, do not misunderstand me. I am not against a railroad. Railroads, properly done, are excellent storytelling devices.
The problem with DL1 is that its inherent design as typified in the original module and as depicted in the novel is not conducive to subtle story control. It's a bad design which results from bad plotting.
It needs to be reworked. It does not need to provide solutions to every possible choice. What it *does* need is major reworking and a willingness to change the plot in the first half so that the progression to Xak Tsaroth is a result of player choices and genuine interest in the plot evolution - not a consequence of meeting the Forest Master - or someone who sends you to the Forest Master. This is bad design. It may be the novel - it may be the first module, but let me make it clear: this is crappy game design.
I'm like you Jamie: I love DragonLance. I love the story. I always have. But if people who are lifelong fans cannot appreciate the shortcomings of something we love, what does that say for the less interested and casual gamer's approach to DL?
One thing I've learned about adventure design is that it has a lot less to do with true choice for the players but is really about maintaining the illusion of choice.
I agree. That is why the examples I noted from DL1 are so harsh. They reveal "the man behind the curtain" in a blatant way. They were exceptionally poor game design choices - and there is no point to apologizing for it or placing it in a "context" of "this is better than the The Tomb of Horrors". While it's true, it comes off as apologia. There is plenty of subsequent railroading in the classic series which accomplishes the same goal in terms of plot control but which is executed far more elegantly that the ham fisted nature of DL1.
I ran originally ran DL1 nineteen years ago with a chaotic group that was constantly doing the unexpected. Yet the little 32-page adventure gave me all the tools I needed, and I was only eleven years old.
Again, the experience of a lot of gamers on EnWorld points to a very different experience which arose for them out of those 32 pages. While the quality and content of any printed product will not save a group from a bad DM, it can serve to equip that DM properly.
And the original DL1 quite simply did not do so.
The goal is improvement--but if you're expecting an ever-expanding adventure path that deals with what might happen if the heroes join the dragonarmies, you'll be disappointed.
Not at all. What I would like to see is some rethinking of the plotline in a major way in the first half of the module. Be brave. There are plenty of modules in the DL series which are well done and require little modification other than updating to 3.5. DL1, however, is not one of them. If the result of that new version is little more than a conversion to 3.5, it will be, in my opinion, a failure.
Be brave and don't be afraid to try something new.
In any case, I'd not bash a book before it's released.
However, it is a great risk SovPress takes with this reprint: It will be awaited with great expectation, and may raise a storm of disgust if it doesn't accomplish what the wishes of the fans.
;)
In any case, I'd not bash a book before it's released.
However, it is a great risk SovPress takes with this reprint: It will be awaited with great expectation, and may raise a storm of disgust if it doesn't accomplish what the wishes of the fans.
I wasn't "bashing" a book before it was released; I was "bashing" the module that it is updating which has been out for twenty years and which I have had cause to read several hundred times.
There is, with respect, a parsec of difference between the two.
However, it is a great risk SovPress takes with this reprint: It will be awaited with great expectation, and may raise a storm of disgust if it doesn't accomplish what the wishes of the fans.
This is true with any license, any revision, and any new venture that draws upon something beloved of many. So, yeah, I think it's fairly well understood by those of us who work on this property at this point.
Cheers,
Cam
The basic DL classics storyline is fine as is; no need to change it. What needs modification is how the story flows, and a lot of that deals with peoples' perception of "railroading".
Don't misunderstand. The story is fine. I'm a huge fan.
What isn't ok is meeting Goldmoon and Riverwind in Solace or in the alternative meeting zones as presented in DL1.
Not the novel - DL1.
What the party is to do at this point in the module has no clarity, few hooks and little story context to move them on to where the designer wants them to go (Xak Tsaroth).
The railroading then necessary to GET the party to go to Xak Tsaroth is what wrecks the first half of the module and results in all of the heavy handed railroading I referred to and that people have complained about for 20 years+.
It all stems from this flaw in the plot: meeting Goldmoon and Riverwind without more to guide the party is the central design problem.
This needs to be reworked.
I wasn't "bashing" a book before it was released; I was "bashing" the module that it is updating which has been out for twenty years and which I have had cause to read several hundred times.
There is, with respect, a parsec of difference between the two.
Please take no offense, this was not especifically against you, but against too early criticism in general. I mean, you know how discussions here tend to exaggerate when they touch sensible topics.
To be honest, I share your opinion. The first DL modules were totally horrible to play, while the novels that accompanied them were really some of the best fantasy literature in the 80s.
I think the cause for the railroading was that the setting as we know it required the return of the gods. - Which would start with the discovering of Mislaxa's staff. (...ah, Mishakal, as you Ansalonians say.) No other adventure that followed would have made sense without the party getting involved in the *god plot*.
As a player, I must say that especially the parts that took place in Abanasinia were pretty boring to me (being a CN kender rogue). I enjoyed the events at the time of the Blue Lady's War a lot more and I look forward to an esteemed Legends - Sourcebook.
The railroading was, however, useful, as, IIRC, DL 1 was made for D&D beginners, so that you could lead them when they lack of gaming experience brought them in danger...
The series contains one of my fondest memories, however, because, after our escape from Tsak Xaroth, I saw Qualinost for the first time... I don't know if it was even part of the module, but our DM lead us there, and if the slightest glimpse of it can be found in the new release, I'll certainly buy the book.
I am counting on you, Cam and the others!