Are there any known or documented instances of the Githiyanki interacting with Oerth?
I'm trying to hash out a character back ground and was trying to use some canon material to support it.
Thanks,
I always thought the Suel were probably the descendents of illithid thralls. Their near or total albinism could be a result of living underground for centuries of millennia; their xenophobia and powerful wizardry also reminds me of the Githyanki.
Anyway, githyanki keep fortresses on most worlds of the Material Plane. They use them as military bases, supplying bands of illithid slayers and occasionally tyrannizing the human population, and also as a place where they can incubate their eggs and raise their children free from the timelessness of the Astral Plane. There will be several red dragons lairing in the vicinity as well, and probably a githzerai fortress not so very far away so that those natives of Limbo can keep tabs on their cousins.
The Hellfurnaces are a perfect place for this since there are many illithid lairs in the caverns beneath, many red dragon lairs near the active volcanoes, isolated human and demihuman communities in the valleys, and a desolate Sea of Dust nearby where the githzerai can create a fortress from alien chaos matter where few will bother them.
What's the cite for the Chainmail reference to gith on Oerth?
Here's a link to my research to date, incidentally:
http://www.superunicorn.com/erik/2005/02/ancient-cultures-of-eastern-oerik.html
--Erik
What's the cite for the Chainmail reference to gith on Oerth?
Dragon #294, page 98 and 99.
I call the event described there the Battle of Zarum, the greatest defeat suffered by Gith's armies against the illithid empire.
According to Chainmail, the gith race originated in the far-western oerth, being enslaved (or was it they rebelled?) something like 4-5,000 years ago.
The claim that all the Children of Gith originated on Oerth may be spurious (since there are competing claims - for example Pharagos, in Dungeon Magazine #100, which seems at least as canonical as Chris Pramas' Chainmail article) but there's no reason the gith couldn't have had multiple origins . . .
I always thought the Suel were probably the descendents of illithid thralls.
This is a very compelling idea. I've been doing a lot of work lately on the pre-historic Flanaess, but I haven't yet gotten to slotting in the mindflayers and gith. Making the Suel the inheritors of their legacy is very intriguing.
The Chainmail reference is less than exact. It speaks of the "gith" as if they were a race of that name before the rise of Gith, the leader of the rebellion that overthrew the mindflayers and from which the githzerai and githyanki take their names. While this might be true and Gith was a descriptive name, nothing in Illithid canon suggests this.
The Suel connection is, IMO, ill-advised.
First, just as there is a Greyhawk "canon," there is an Illithid "canon." Tinkering with the personage of Gith could have reprecussions on both and make the "canon scholar" who does so look more than foolish. If Gith is from Oerth or if the "gith race" is from Oerth, what does that say of Oerth's past? Do we really want that close a connection with the mind flayers? At the very least before going down this road, the Illithid "canon" should be examined to make certain the connection does not doom Oerth. One abberant Oerth where Tharizdun destroys the planet is plenty; we don't need another where a Greyhawk canon connection with Illithid canon dooms Oerth to being a thrall world or worse, destroyed again.
Second, why the Suel? Can't this race be left in peace? Must they be "drowed" because they are "neat?" Everything should not lead back to the Suel. It just stretches credulity past the breaking point. This isn't Suel-Hawk for Gord's sake. We have already seen Roger Moore's Suel-idolaty run amuck in Dragon. Added to the already existing Suel connections from Gygax etc. and there is more than enough "cool Suel" material to play with.
You want to do something? Give the Baklunish equal time. Rescue the Flan from extinction. Make the Oeridian's other than vanilla pseudo-Europeans. Have the Olman as other than degenerated primitives and savages. Enough with the Fharlaghn' Suel! Go read a Drizzt novel if you want to see where Suel idolatry ends. Leave the Suel alone.
The Suel can be Greyhawk's answer to the Realm's drow, if someone isn't careful. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing.
Fharlaghn' Suel gumbies and munchkins.
I don't think attributing an exotic origin to the Suel (or giving them hypothetical extraplanar offshoots) is the same thing as "drowing" them or prevents anything equally interesting from being done with the other human ethnic groups, but I thought your reply was very funny, GV Dammerung, in a good way. I laughed, as they say, out loud.
Well, that's good. Humor is too often the "third rail" of the internet.
But to cases, its not your suggestion by itself that is purely problematic. It is, rather, a cumulative thing:
Rain of Colorless Fire and Mages of Power - Suel
Scarlet Brotherhood - Suel
Tharizdun - Suel
Orbs of Dragonkind - Suel
"Legacy of the Suel" Races - Suel
Keoland/Duchy of Urnst/Northern Barbars/Sea of Dust - Suel
One could go on. To paraphrase, "The Suel are too much with us." You hear more about the Suel than any other GH race. Making then the inheritors of the Gith only gilds the lilly.
One might also note that for the Gith of Zarum to be related to the Suel, the "inheritance" would have to be carried over, or under, two titanic mountain ranges and the Celestial Imperium. It just don't make sense to top matters off and appears even more egregious "reaching" to cool to Suel some more.
The Suel, like anything else, can be over-exposed. Tying them to the Gith is, IMO, one more step down the road paved with good intentions.
All said, however, if Chainmail is "canon" which I believe it must be, the Zarum reference must be explained. There is some connection between Oerth and the gith races. I just hope its not the Suel.
PS - Did you once write under the pen-name "Rasgon?" Just curious.
Rain of Colorless Fire and Mages of Power - Suel
And the Baklunish caused the Rain with their own Mages of Power. And the Flannae have Vecna, the Isles of Woe, Acererak, and the mages who assaulted the City of Summer Stars.
Scarlet Brotherhood - Suel
Great Kingdom - Oeridians
Tenh and Geoff - Flan
Ekbir and Ket - Baklunish
I don't love the Brotherhood any more than those other nations I mentioned.
Tharizdun - Suel
Tharizdun isn't Suel; he's listed as of unknown origin in the WoG boxed set. Most of the ruins his cultists left in the Flanaess far predate the migrations. I think I remember Gygax saying something online about how yes, he thought of the Tharizdun cultists in the Yatils as being of Suel decent, but I don't think that's ever explicitly stated in the module. The ruins associated with him in the Tilvanot were already there when the Suel arrived.
And don't forget that the Dark God is credited with the destruction of Sulm. I think of him as more Flan than anything.
Orbs of Dragonkind - Suel
"Legacy of the Suel" Races - Suel
The Legacy of Moore, heh. I really like the interpretation of the Suel as ancient shapers of life; dopplegangers and skulks need some ancient empire to have made them, and it fits the Suel the best. Besides derro and su-monsters, I would add meenlocks and gray renders as products of Suel engineering. Maybe even quaggoths.
But, you know, I can just as easily list Baklunish things:
Tovag Baragu - Baklunish
Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar - Baklunish
The Plains of the Paynims - Baklunish
Pinnacles of Azor'Alq - Baklunish
Genies - Baklunish
Nagas, Rakshasas, Lamiae, Shedu, Lammasu, Asuras - Baklunish
Carpets of Flying, Iron Flasks, Censers summoning air elementals - Baklunish
Wolf and Tiger Nomads - Baklunish
Or Flan things
Druids - Flan
Bards - Flan
Rovers of the Barrens - Flan
Skrellingshad - Flan
The Bright Desert and its ruins - Flan
The Causeway of Fiends and the Cauldron of Night - Flan
Pelor and Nerull - Flan
Iggwilv and Iuz - Flan
Baba Yaga's Hut - Flan (Iggwilv)
Codex of the Infinite Planes - Flan (Isles of Woe)
Crook of Rao - Flan
Eye and Hand of Vecna, Sword of Kas - Flan
Queen Ehlissa's Marvelous Nightengale - Flan
Rod of Seven Parts - Nonhuman, but closer to Flan than any of the others
Or Oeridian things
Machine of Lum - Oeridian
Mighty Servant of Leuk-o - Oeridian
Heward's Organ - Likely Oeridian, with its resemblance to Lum's device
Coat of Arnd - Oeridian
Malachite Throne - Oeridian
Aerdy, Nyrond, Keoland, the Iron League, the Shield Kingdoms - Oeridian
Keoghtom - Oeridian (in my mind, anyway)
Heironeous and Hextor - Oeridian
Johydee's Mask - Oeridian
Knights and feudalism - Oeridian
Race that dominated all the others, saving only the Baklunish, in modern history and determined the shape of the Flanaess more than any other - Oeridian
Honestly, I don't see the inbalance that you do. If anything, the Flan have too much - only that they were utterly conquered by the Oeridians saves them (the conquest of Iuz doesn't count, since he's Flan too on his mother's side). And the Suel were conquered too, their empire laid waste and dominated or assimilated by the Oeridians across the continent. Only in the Tilvanot and among the Rhizia did they remain truly free. Some of the noble families in Keoland are of Suel origin, but they must share power with the Oeridians; the language of their nation and even its name are largely Oeridian. Sounds like assimilation to me.
Gith of Zarum to be related to the Suel
The Gith/Suel idea long predates the Dragon Article, which I dislike if it's taken too literally. The illithids ruled many, many worlds, and not just one part of each. The connection between Zarum and the Suloise Basin would be through the illithid overmind, not through overland travel on the part of the human slaves.
But, you know, I'm not married to the idea either. I'm just throwing it out there.
PS - Did you once write under the pen-name "Rasgon"
That's me. It's good to be recognized.
According to Lords of Madness, the Gith Rebellion occurred only about 2,000 years ago. More, the Illithids had arrived in our time only a short while earlier.
So given how long the Suel have been around, they couldn't be the inheritors of the Gith or an escaped thrall race or anything. They've been here longer than the Illithids.
Oh, and Rip, if anyone deserves to be recognized it is you. Your game work has always been excellent. Its good to see you back on the boards.
. . . Honestly, I don't see the inbalance that you do.
But, you know, I'm not married to the idea either. I'm just throwing it out there.
That's me. It's good to be recognized.
It may well be a matter of perception. I certainly see the Suel as the leading GH race susceptible to "drow" treatment and resist further thoughts of embellishing an already resplendent pedigree within the game.
Rather than turn the Chainmail Gith reference eastward toward the Flanaess, I'd use it to embellish the West, where the Chainmail setting, arguably canon, could use some burnishing.
Samwise points out a problem developed from Lords of Madness with respect to Githing the Suel. There are others, as you have pointed out in Dragon 100, and as may be found in the Guide to the Astral Plane. And there are yet more. The Illithid canon has its core of "facts" but is replete with enough contraditions to set one's teeth on edge. The Chainmail reference is contradictory if taken literally but certainly could be "interpreted" to let Oerth in on the Illithid goodness without necessarily implicating the Suel and without entwining so central a Greyhawk stalwart as the Suel with the vagaries of the Illithid.
Hopefully, we are done with Rogar of Mooria. No one wear's "zoot suits" anymoore either, even if it was the style at the time. I would not see Rogar replaced with the gith substituting for giant space hamsters. But it would have the benefit of removing all doubt. ;)
Now, moving on.
I thought I recognized you as Rasgon and am very pleased to have been correct! Please allow me to say that, IMO, your Bahoment article for CanonFire is the single best contribution to that website that I have read. Brilliant work! :D As a relative "newbie" online (August 2004), I read with avid interest the Canonfire topical archives and your work was immediately distinctive for the writing style and the development of your ideas. Exceedingly well done and it is great to know that you are still around. :D I would love to read more of your work should you choose to post it to Canonfire. ::hint:: ::hint:: ;) In fact, you should submit an expanded treatment of Bahomet to Dragon as Mr. Hep-Mona is doing demon princes in the venerable magazine. I doubt Bahomet can be much improved upon from your take.
Somebody wake-up Mona and tell him Rasgon's got the coffee brewing. :D Sure beats the heck out of giant suel gith-hamsters from space.
Pleasure to "meet" you Rip/Rasgon.
According to Lords of Madness, the Gith Rebellion occurred only about 2,000 years ago.
Hi, Sam.
That's very unlikely, though, since the Lich-Queen Vlaakith has reigned for 1000 years already and she's the 152nd of her line. For Lords of Madness' figure to be accurate, each of the previous Vlaakiths (who are all related to the current one) would have to have ruled, on average, for about six years each. I honestly don't think the same family could reproduce fast enough to continue churning Queens out at such a rate.
See A Guide to the Astral Plane or Dungeon #100.
I mean, I think a period where a lot of sisters, cousins, and daughters are assassinating one another is reasonable, but at such a rate they'd run out long before a millennium passed.
What we really have to think about is what the minimum reasonable age is for a young princess to kill her mother. She would then kill her younger sisters to prevent future succession problems (as was at one time required of new Ottoman Emperors). For Lords of Madness to be correct, githyanki princesses would have to be constantly murdering their mothers at the precocious age of six, immediately laying eggs of their own, and repeating the cycle about six years later.
Assuming the githyanki queens' average reign was more like 200 years (far more likely, I think, on the timeless Astral) the ascension of the original Vlaakith would have been around 30,000 years ago. Lords of Madness was the victim of thinking small and not crunching the numbers. Of course, 30,000 years might be far too long for any Material Plane remnants of the thralls to be remotely recognizable, but such is life.
Anyway, I wouldn't personally pay any attention to the LoM chronology. I prefer the Illithiad, which placed the mind flayer empire "before the crowning of Ra, when the planes themselves were in a different configuration."
And death knights are Oeridian. I forgot about them. The Oeridians have so many cool toys. I honestly think the Suel need something to make them distinctive so we can tell them apart from the Baklunish Mages of Power and the Flan Mages of Power. The slightly alien (as Oerth Journal #1 called it, almost Melnibonean) feel they have is pretty much all they've got, along with racism. If they're to be more than Nazis they need some help. Not necessarily the gith thing, honestly, but something.
Honestly I've always picture it as some kind of burned out industrial volcanoe planet, that the Ithilids had tapped out the resources of.
Unless gamers prefer neo-otyughs.
Hi, Sam.
What we really have to think about is what the minimum reasonable age is for a young princess to kill her mother. She would then kill her younger sisters to prevent future succession problems (as was at one time required of new Ottoman Emperors). For Lords of Madness to be correct, githyanki princesses would have to be constantly murdering their mothers at the precocious age of six, immediately laying eggs of their own, and repeating the cycle about six years later.
Assuming the githyanki queens' average reign was more like 200 years (far more likely, I think, on the timeless Astral) the ascension of the original Vlaakith would have been around 30,000 years ago. Lords of Madness was the victim of thinking small and not crunching the numbers. Of course, 30,000 years might be far too long for any Material Plane remnants of the thralls to be remotely recognizable, but such is life.
I suppose that its entirely possible that there were a lot of younger sisters that took the throne from an older sister, such that the gith might go through several queens in a very quick time during turbulent times. This of course doesn't jive with the notion of the queens being a direct line, but maybe they don't care about the queen being the oldest sister, just so long as she's descended from the first queen.
I do agree that the time should be closer to 30k years ago...that's jives with figures I've run myself ages ago. The illithid empire has always been explained as one of those "dawn of time"-type of empires. 2,000 years ago is entirely too brief a time ago. If that were the case, there'd be dragons & elves alive who'd remember & perhaps have even participated in its fall!
So 2,000 years it is, and Vlaakith with either have to lose a C in her name or several in the duration of her reign, her choice. :D
Just say no to Githsueli.
Well then we have a contradiction in sources. It would seem that Lords of Madness has precedence though, particularly as it is a Core product that is currently available, while Guide to the Astral Plane was a line product that is out of print.
So 2,000 years it is, and Vlaakith with either have to lose a C in her name or several in the duration of her reign, her choice. :D
poor illithids...heck with the gith, revisionist canon is doing far more damage to their ancient empire than Gith could ever dream of achieving. If their empire passed unnoticed on the prime, which for a time was supposed to be their playground, then it must not have been much of an empire.
Huh.
--Erik Mona
The Vlaakith line provided much-needed leadership and constancy. The large degree of stability of government in Tu'narath is rare in the multiverse, even among the gods. The Vlaakith line has ruled the githyanki for countless millennia.
The current ruler, Queen Vlaakith CLVII, has reigned for well over a thousand years.
2000 years is obviously not countless millennia, and stability and constancy aren't compatible with the centuries of assassinations and civil wars needed to quickly rid us of 156 other Vlaakiths.
It looks like the Lords of Madness number can be considered a typo - make it 20,000 and I'll be happy. Or, at least, we can pick which one we like better. And since the admittedly vague Planar Handbook figure fits much better with Planescape and the Illithiad, while Lords of Madness flatly contradicts them both, I prefer the former.
Just say no to Githsueli.
Heh.
The Illithids came, enslaved the Gith, the Vlaakith line was controlled as figureheads, and returned to power after the rebellion.
As for 20,000 years of total cultural stagnation, that is excessive. There is no reason the Githyanki should have been around that long. 2,000 is a much better number, and the Planar Handbook number should be considered the efforts of royal revisionists and apologists among the Githyanki, as well as a misunderstanding of records from the Illithid empire among scholars.
Who says the Vlaakith line isn't traced back to when they were still united with the Githzerai? The Illithids came, enslaved the Gith, the Vlaakith line was controlled as figureheads, and returned to power after the rebellion.
Well, for one, they weren't the 'githyanki' before the rebellion, and the source says the Vlaakiths ruled the githyanki. They were humans, according to every pre-3e source (though for some reason, perhaps their redesigned appearance, they seem to have backed away from that recently). The githyanki were, of course, named after their leader Gith.
We should also be able to assume that the information on Vlaakith I from 2nd edition is still valid if it hasn't been explicitly contradicted. In 2nd edition, Vlaakith I was Vlaakith I - the first one, the founder of the dynasty, and and advisor of Gith's. I mean, since when do Greyhawk fans shy away from using material from previous editions of the game? Personal preference is one thing, but that just leaves us at an impasse (since I really, really dislike the 2000 year figure).
I could pick apart the exact wording of the quote and its surrounding context further and be really pedantic (and I hope I'm not already doing that), but there's really no point. Your explanation is a rationalization, not something from the sourcebooks, and if you can do that I can do that freely with Lords of Madness. For example, the illithids are supposed to come from the future, yes? Maybe their slaves found out how to use their masters' own time portals or whatever, traveled 20,000 years into the past, ruled for countless millennia, and then traveled to a mere 2000 years ago in an attempt to stop the illithids at their "source."
The 2000 year figure contradicts not just A Guide to the Astral Plane and the Illithiad, but it contradicts the Monster Manual, which says the rebellion took place "eons" ago.
The mind flayer dominion was so powerful that vast planar armies marshaled to defend their respective realms. Even the fiends paused in their eternal Blood War long enough to determine if the illithids would attack the Lower Planes as well. Despite the fact that most tomes of historical lore make no mention of it (for truly ancient was this time, and older still the roots of the illithid empire), never has there been a time since then when the entire multiverse has been so vexed by a single threat.
As for 20,000 years of total cultural stagnation, that is excessive.
It would be excessive for a human kingdom, but I don't think it's excessive for a race that lives on a plane that allows its inhabitants virtual immortality (as long as they don't leave it) whose psychology has become extremely alien due to both illithid tampering and the passing of epochs in strange climes. Their psionics, the iron grip of their ruler, the fact that the older generations seem to hang around indefinitely, and their pathological obsession with vengence against their ancient enemies above all else all contribute to their cultural uniformity over the years.
Personally, I'd speculate that the 2000 year figure, if not simply the result of a zero getting lost in the process of copying some ancient scroll (or some similar trouble translating an alien system of mathematics), is the result of the myopia of certain scholars of the Flanaess, for whom even a single millennium takes them largely before recorded history.
I thought of a bastardized Shakespeare/Lovecraft quote to go with that last line, but it's really dumb and I'll spare you.
At the 2,000 year date, it means that across many settings, their empire was not even worth mention. GH has somewhat less of this problem, because it lacks much detailed history past 1,000 years ago, but still, you'd think that such a date would have ripples still in GH. If the empire was largely confined to far western Oerik 2k years ago, then it truly has been minimized to a tin-pot dictatorship.
And death knights are Oeridian. I forgot about them. The Oeridians have so many cool toys. I honestly think the Suel need something to make them distinctive so we can tell them apart from the Baklunish Mages of Power and the Flan Mages of Power. The slightly alien (as Oerth Journal #1 called it, almost Melnibonean) feel they have is pretty much all they've got, along with racism. If they're to be more than Nazis they need some help. Not necessarily the gith thing, honestly, but something.
Sightly OT: The Suel have the Suel Lich then.
Perhaps the Suel and Baklunish empires were fighting the Illithids.
Perhaps the Illithids weren't in this part of space.
If the Illithids were threatening the fabric of the universe, is it not more likely they were doing that by assaulting the Astral and Outer Planes? In such a case, there would be little sign of it on Oerth.
As for the Gith, it says the Illithids enslaved the Gith. Whatever they may or may not have renamed themselves after the rebellion, the race is always referred to as the Gith.
I am more intrigued by this willingness to stomp on GH canon by forcing it into compliance with the Illithids combined with shying away from using GH canon force compliance on Illithid and Gith related canon.
The setting gets to determine when and how and what about the monsters, not the other way around. If the Illithids and Gith need to be controlled so as to have a shorter existence, then that is what happens to them. After all, GH is the "core" setting. It gets to force such things on other background.
:D
:P
And 20,000 years is excessive for anyone and anything, even on the Astral. There is no reason the Gith would avoid developing more advanced technologies to suit themselves, particularly military technologies. That they haven't shows a flaw in tossing "thousands" of years around so casually in their history. It might sound cool, but it is more silly. Even a 2,000 year old empire that can't get beyond baroque styles and tastes is pushing it, but 20,000? Bleah.
Cut those years down to size, and do some real development on the Gith.
Given that no Greyhawk exists for 2,000 years ago, why is it problematic?
Oh, it's not, for Greyhawk alone. The issue comes if you assume that even planar texts didn't notice the multiverse-spanning imperium two millennia ago.
Perhaps the Suel and Baklunish empires were fighting the Illithids.
An intriguing idea. Perhaps the Suel were even enslaved by them for a time. When the fighting was over, perhaps some left for the Astral Plane.
Whatever they may or may not have renamed themselves after the rebellion, the race is always referred to as the Gith.
Bruce Cordell usually calls them (the proto-gith) the gith forerunners. Before him, they were usually called humans.
I am more intrigued by this willingness to stomp on GH canon
Ouch! Brutal, man! It's the "stomp" part that hurt.
Honestly (moment of truth) for me the planes are the setting, and Oerth is just a part of that. An important part, with many portals and so forth keeping the planar powers interested and a lot of interesting things going on, but not the setting itself.
Oerth tends to be what I instinctually think of when I think of the Material Plane, but how I love Planescape, and there are so many other planes than that.
I really want the Oerth to play an important role in the githyanki/illithid conflict, but I don't want it to play the only role.
There is no reason the Gith would avoid developing more advanced technologies to suit themselves
Advanced technologies aren't possible on Oerth (unless your name is Murlynd). Perhaps the same is true in the Astral Plane. Everything is really a construct of the mind on the Astral (which, after all, has no true space or time); the physical laws that technological things operate by probably don't apply. Magic and psionics might well be the only technology available.
As far as the supernatural arts go, the githyanki may well have at some point developed technologies equivalent to that of the Suel and Bakluni Mages of Power, dweomers capable of leveling a continent. The level limit imposed by the Lich-Queen, however, has forced a technological decline.
Civilization need not be a continuous climb upward. I think there's a large place in D&D and especially Greyhawk for "lost" (pre-Murlyndic) technologies - the City of the Gods in Blackmoor, for example. The post-apocalyptic brand of sword and sorcery of the sort written about by such authors as Gene Wolfe (Shadow of the Torturer), Jack Vance (The Dying Earth), and M. John Harrison (The Pastel City) fits beneath the complex weave that is the modern Flanaess very well..
Well is 2000 years enough time for humans to evolve into Githyanki, and Githzerai, probably not, or was it the Ithilids who twisted them into their current forms. Its obviously a typo or written by someone off the cuff who hadn't thought about it... Here is the thought process- 2000 years will seem like a long time to your average D+D fan so lets put that in, or 2000 years seems like a long time to me, but heck I don't know alot about the 20000 year history of people on earth much less the astral.
Gith aren't humans. So 2,000,000,000,000 years won't suffice for humans to evolve into Githyanki or Githzerai.
2,000 years is more than sufficient for Githyanki and Githzerai to show divergent body types, particularly with planar influences.
As for knowing the difference between 2,000 and 20,000 years, there was a time when D&D players knew the difference. I certainly do. As did most everyone I played with growing up. And there was a time when writers knew the difference too. And they made sure their civilizations underwent periodic collapses to help explain why they never advanced beyond a certain point. (Which by the by would help with explain the utter stagnation of the Gith. Maybe they did run through large segments of the Royal Family in such a short period of time.)
Well is 2000 years enough time for humans to evolve into Githyanki, and Githzerai, probably not, or was it the Ithilids who twisted them into their current forms.
A little from column A, a little from column B, and column C has somehow become involved with all this without asking anyone's permission. I attribute the oviparous and subtly reptillian nature of the githyanki to interbreeding with red dragons. Their innate psionics, gauntness, and odd skin tone is probably the result of illithid engineering. The extreme gauntness of the githyanki as opposed to their cousins is the result of eons spent in the Astral Plane not eating anything.
I agree with Sam that 20,000 years isn't required to explain their physiology. The only point in back-dating them by so much is to make them truly ancient on a planar scale.
That is, unless you consider Lords of Madness to be more canonical than the Planar Handbook.
Here is the RPGA blurb: Concerned by stories of the resurfacing of the Isles of Woe, Warnes Starcoat is sponsoring an expedition into the Brass Hills to explore a site called the Zochal. According to the Nesser Opuscule, only surviving fragment of a greater work attributed to Tzunk, the Zochal is a echo point for the planar confluence that infuses the once lost sunken isles. What does that mean? That is exactly what the Circle of Eight wants you to find out. An adventure for characters level 1-12. This adventure uses information presented in the Manual of the Planes. It is helpful, but not necessary, to have access to that book during play.
This module is retired so the spoiler really isn't a spoiler at all, in case anyone is concerned.
Oh, it's not, for Greyhawk alone. The issue comes if you assume that even planar texts didn't notice the multiverse-spanning imperium two millennia ago.
Who says they didn't?
And remember, time flows differently out there. (At least it used to.) 2,000 years on Oerth may seem like 20,000 in the Outer Planes.
Heck, it probably seems like more if you are trapped in Sigil and the Factions rule forever.
:D
An intriguing idea. Perhaps the Suel were even enslaved by them for a time. When the fighting was over, perhaps some left for the Astral Plane.
Unlikely. Then there would be a break in the Suel Imperium, and there is none.
Bruce Cordell usually calls them (the proto-gith) the gith forerunners. Before him, they were usually called humans.
And now that has been changed and they were never human.
Bear in mind, according to The Astromundi Cluster boxed set, Illithids are also mutated humans. Obviously that is superseded as well.
Ouch! Brutal, man! It's the "stomp" part that hurt.
Honestly (moment of truth) for me the planes are the setting, and Oerth is just a part of that. An important part, with many portals and so forth keeping the planar powers interested and a lot of interesting things going on, but not the setting itself.
Oerth tends to be what I instinctually think of when I think of the Material Plane, but how I love Planescape, and there are so many other planes than that.
I really want the Oerth to play an important role in the githyanki/illithid conflict, but I don't want it to play the only role.
But the planes aren't the Core setting, so they must defer to it in this case.
And remember, I'm a big fan of Planescape too. Just because I ask that it has a history that isn't ragingly incompatible with all other settings doesn't mean I am making it secondary. I am just looking to be sure it doesn't make others secondary.
Advanced technologies aren't possible on Oerth (unless your name is Murlynd). Perhaps the same is true in the Astral Plane. Everything is really a construct of the mind on the Astral (which, after all, has no true space or time); the physical laws that technological things operate by probably don't apply. Magic and psionics might well be the only technology available.
Actually gunpowder isn't possible. No one says others aren't.
As for the Astral, it is a plane of the mind. How can anything be impossible on a plane of the mind?
As far as the supernatural arts go, the githyanki may well have at some point developed technologies equivalent to that of the Suel and Bakluni Mages of Power, dweomers capable of leveling a continent. The level limit imposed by the Lich-Queen, however, has forced a technological decline.
It would force an arcane decline. Tech would be even more likely to arise to compensate for it.
Civilization need not be a continuous climb upward. I think there's a large place in D&D and especially Greyhawk for "lost" (pre-Murlyndic) technologies - the City of the Gods in Blackmoor, for example. The post-apocalyptic brand of sword and sorcery of the sort written about by such authors as Gene Wolfe (Shadow of the Torturer), Jack Vance (The Dying Earth), and M. John Harrison (The Pastel City) fits beneath the complex weave that is the modern Flanaess very well..
Then where is the apocalypse that keeps the Gith down?
Even constant war doesn't do that. There must be an actual and active collapse. The Dying Earth has seen multiple ages and races come and go. The people Vance writes about in it are only technically and coincidentally human.
That is, unless you consider Lords of Madness to be more canonical than the Planar Handbook.
If it saves us from the Githsueli, then yes.
:invasion:
And remember, time flows differently out there.
Obviously, if we assume that it's been 20,000 years from the point of view of the Astral Plane and 2000 years from the point of Oerth, there's no argument. And I don't have any problem with time doing weird things across planar boundaries.
The actual time distortion in the 1e Manual of the Planes was that creatures in the Astral Plane age one day for every 1000 Material Planar years - in practical terms the same as the current Timeless trait.
Unlikely. Then there would be a break in the Suel Imperium, and there is none.
How do we know? Pre-Cataclysmic history is so vague.
And now that has been changed and they were never human.
It hasn't been explicitly changed; they no longer refer to the gith forerunners as human, but they don't actually say they weren't.
Bear in mind, according to The Astromundi Cluster boxed set, Illithids are also mutated humans. Obviously that is superseded as well.
Point.
But the planes aren't the Core setting
Sure they are. There's a lot more info on the planes in the 3.5 DMG than there is on the Flanaess.
In 2e they were their own setting, but now they've been utterly and mercilessly folded into Core.
And remember, I'm a big fan of Planescape too. Just because I ask that it has a history that isn't ragingly incompatible with all other settings doesn't mean I am making it secondary. I am just looking to be sure it doesn't make others secondary.
I just don't see the "raging incompatibility" you do. In fact, I assume the extreme antiquity of the illithid empire in 2e was a deliberate decision to keep it from messing up the established chronologies of the various campaign worlds.
Of course, in the Forgotten Realms they throw around tens of thousands of years like candy. 30,000 years ago is actually marked in the Ancient Empires timeline excerpted on this website (as the precise date that Lolth warred with the Seldarine).
I'm more concerned that present sourcebooks aren't ragingly incompatible with the flavor text from previous editions. The Lords of Madness chronology is so radically different from what 2e stuff (and the Planar Handbook), it's as if a sourcebook moved the founding of Keoland back 5000 years, or forward to a mere century ago.
Actually gunpowder isn't possible. No one says others aren't.
My assumption comes from Saga of Old City, page 71:
"How do you explain technology?"
Gord took a shot at that one. "It is a myth of the ignorant used to fool gullible folk and frighten children!"
"Nonsense!" the elderly scholar retorted. "It is the counterpart of magic within the dimension of probability and works in inverse proportion to it."
I take this to mean that, as far as Gygax was concerned, technology becomes less usable the higher the magical aura of a world.
This is supported by his information of Earth, Uerth, Yarth, Oerth, and Aerth in "Why Gargoyles Don't Have Wings or Should" in Polyhedron #21; the more magical worlds had lower levels of technology and vice versa. Or so I've been given to understand, never having read the article.
Since the Astral Plane has the enhanced magic trait, it should be even harder to use machines there than it is to use such devices on the Oerth.
Then where is the apocalypse that keeps the Gith down?
If we're only talking about magic, it's simple: without epic-level characters, there's no epic-level magic. The secrets of the great spells and psionic powers once commanded by the githyanki archmagi of old died with their makers. No one living can understand the old scrolls, and the Lich-Queen is more interested in destroying rivals than recovering lost knowledge.
And I'm very much thinking of The Dying Earth:
"In ages gone," the Sage had said, his eyes fixed on a low star, "a thousand spells were known to sorcery and the wizards effected their wills. Today, as Earth dies, a hundred spells remain to man's knowledge, and these have come to us through the ancient books...
I don't see an apocalypse as a necessary thing. A long, slow, social and economic decline as the githyanki become increasingly less interested in sharing information, in educating their young, in artistic expression and theoretical research and begin to concentrate solely on worshipping their Revered Queen and slaying their hated enemies. Nothing else is important. Nothing else is permitted. The culture becomes more insular, more xenophobic, and more totalitarian, and so it dies.
Obviously, if we assume that it's been 20,000 years from the point of view of the Astral Plane and 2000 years from the point of Oerth, there's no argument. And I don't have any problem with time doing weird things across planar boundaries.
The actual time distortion in the 1e Manual of the Planes was that creatures in the Astral Plane age one day for every 1000 Material Planar years - in practical terms the same as the current Timeless trait.
Neither do I.
How do we know? Pre-Cataclysmic history is so vague.
Like Gith history?
It hasn't been explicitly changed; they no longer refer to the gith forerunners as human, but they don't actually say they weren't.
Tomato/Tomatoe
They aren't human anymore and that's that.
I just don't see the "raging incompatibility" you do. In fact, I assume the extreme antiquity of the illithid empire in 2e was a deliberate decision to keep it from messing up the established chronologies of the various campaign worlds.
And now the recent nature is to establish an overall chronology.
Of course, in the Forgotten Realms they throw around tens of thousands of years like candy. 30,000 years ago is actually marked in the Ancient Empires timeline excerpted on this website (as the precise date that Lolth warred with the Seldarine).
"No comment."
:P
My assumption comes from Saga of Old City, page 71:
I take this to mean that, as far as Gygax was concerned, technology becomes less usable the higher the magical aura of a world.
This is supported by his information of Earth, Uerth, Yarth, Oerth, and Aerth in "Why Gargoyles Don't Have Wings or Should" in Polyhedron #21; the more magical worlds had lower levels of technology and vice versa. Or so I've been given to understand, never having read the article.
Since the Astral Plane has the enhanced magic trait, it should be even harder to use machines there than it is to use such devices on the Oerth.
And yet he was writing in-charater there. And so the validity is up in the air.
And I'm very much thinking of The Dying Earth:
AH!
But other passages in the Dying Earth very much indicate that much of what they call magic at the time of those stories was actually technology.
So technology is merely another aspect of magic, not a counterpoint to it.
And since D&D magic is considered "Vancian", then technology and magic are not incompatible at all.
Like Gith history?
Just exactly like. I wouldn't want some product to come around and say the Suel Imperium was only 100 years old at the time of the Colorless Fire, though technically we don't know for sure this wasn't the case (their calendar might be inherited from another culture, or entirely made up by speculative calendar-makers).
They aren't human anymore and that's that.
I tend to assume older things are still valid until explicitly contradicted.
And since D&D magic is considered "Vancian", then technology and magic are not incompatible at all.
Gygax used the same "dimension of probability" in his Mythus Magic book, so I'm sure that he, at least, liked the idea.
D&D magic is Vancian in some respects; it owes most of itself to the first book in the series.
The D&D magic system also owes a fair amount to The Compleat Enchanter by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt. And because it's fun to quote old books, I'll keep doing it.
From Harold Shea's adventure in Norse Mythology:
He seemed to have been walking for days, though he knew it could hardly be a matter of hours. Reluctantly he took one hand from his pocket and gazed at his wrist watch. It read 9:56; certainly wrong. When he held the watch to a numbed ear he discovered it had stopped. Neither shaking nor winding could make it start.
...
Light. He pulled the pack around in front of him and fumbled in it till he felt the icy touch of the flashlight's metal. He pulled it out from under the other articles and pressed the switch button. Nothing happened, nor would any shaking, slapping, or repeated snappings of the switch produce any result.
...
He felt around in the little container that held his matches until he found some of the nonsafety kitchen type. His three companions held their breaths as he took out a match and struck it against the box.
Nothing happened.
He tried again. Still no result. He threw the match away and essayed another, again without success. He tried another, and another, and another. He tried two at once. He put away the kitchen matches and got out a box of safety matches. The result was no better. There was no visible reason. The matches simply wouldn't light.
...
Naturally his gadgets had failed to work. He was in a world not governed by the laws of twentieth-century physics or chemistry. It had a mental pattern which left no room for matches or flashlights, or non-rusting steel.
I think that's the sort of thing Mr. Gygax was thinking of. How I love ending sentences with prepositions.
A similar philosophy might model the way the githyanki technology works, or doesn't work; prisoners of their own ancient prejudices on the plane of the mind, things they're unable to conceive of simply can't exist for them.
Just exactly like. I wouldn't want some product to come around and say the Suel Imperium was only 100 years old at the time of the Colorless Fire, though technically we don't know for sure this wasn't the case (their calendar might be inherited from another culture, or entirely made up by speculative calendar-makers).
That is another problem. people make these wild asssumptions, like a calendar represents the duration of an empire, or a number represents a direct connection. The first King Louis of France was named Clovis, and multiple families intervened between his and the Valois. Why a Vlaakith can't refer to some other name, or some collateral line that is still considered the same family, or come from before the enslavement, is something I can't see rejected out of hand.
I tend to assume older things are still valid until explicitly contradicted.
The contradiction is implied.
Gygax used the same "dimension of probability" in his Mythus Magic book, so I'm sure that he, at least, liked the idea
D&D magic is Vancian in some respects; it owes most of itself to the first book in the series.
I'm sure he did. And Zelazny used variant chemical reactions in Amber. That doesn't mean it is impossible.
The D&D magic system also owes a fair amount to The Compleat Enchanter by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt. And because it's fun to quote old books, I'll keep doing it.
From Harold Shea's adventure in Norse Mythology:
I think that's the sort of thing Mr. Gygax was thinking of. How I love ending sentences with prepositions.[/UNQUOTE]
And yet other elements exist that deny such is true. After all, a fireball needs sulphur and bat guano. Add a bit of charcoal, and that is gunpowder. So obviously the chemical reactions still work.
Likewise in the Compleat Enchanter, fires still burn. Sulphur still exists. So the matches should work. That they don't is an artifical construct that defies the other physical laws in existence.
But it makes for a cute story.A similar philosophy might model the way the githyanki technology works, or doesn't work; prisoners of their own ancient prejudices on the plane of the mind, things they're unable to conceive of simply can't exist for them.
In which case they would swiftly find themselves the victims of those who can imagine them. Not a prescription for the duration of their dominance.
Why a Vlaakith can't refer to some other name, or some collateral line that is still considered the same family, or come from before the enslavement, is something I can't see rejected out of hand.
The illithid empire was eons ago according to the 3e githyanki monster entry and every other source (save only the most recent). The Vlaakith line was founded shortly after (at least, within centuries of - some gap of time is implied in the Planar Handbook, since the githyanki/githzerai civil war represented as a time of lawlessness) Gith's rebellion. The 2000 year date simply doesn't work.
The contradiction is implied.
And the Planar Handbook implies that Vlaakith's royal line didn't exist before Gith's rebellion. If a matter is implied, but there is still doubt, we can go back to earlier sources to confirm or disprove our suspicions.
Using this method, we discover that Vlaakith I was an advisor of Gith's, and that Gith's people were originally human before the illithids started messing with them.
That doesn't mean it is impossible.
Nothing's impossible in fantasy. After all, there are technological remnants on Oerth, from the Machine of Lum the Mad to ruined spacecraft in the Barrier Peaks to laser guns that Gygax's PCs imported from Barsoom.
But speaking in more general terms, it seems that the sort of nonmagical technology that our own civilization develops isn't one that would be practical for a race living in the Astral Plane.
And yet other elements exist that deny such is true. After all, a fireball needs sulphur and bat guano. Add a bit of charcoal, and that is gunpowder. So obviously the chemical reactions still work.
Fireballs work using the magical law of sympathy (plus actual magical power the spellcaster pulls from the cosmos), not through chemistry.
Alchemical reactions work on Oerth, but their basis is the Aristotlean elements and the AD&D para- and quasi-elements rather than the physics our own chemistry is based on.
In which case they would swiftly find themselves the victims of those who can imagine them.
Any invaders would also be bound by the limitations imposed by the Astral's most powerful race. Belief is power, after all.
I don't agree that technological advancement is the inevitable result of civilization, no matter how long it lasts. The city of Jericho was founded 10,000 years ago on Earth; despite cooperation, leisure time, learning, and trade, the people in that region didn't get nuclear weapons until the 20th century, and only then because the United States sold them to them.
An empire that lasts 2000 years without significant social change is stagnant. Unless change is forced upon it by outsiders (as happened to the Chinese), there's no reason, especially in a universe without time, it can't go on another 30,000 years the same way.
I might argue that the timelessness of the Astral alone prevents any significant social change or technological development. There's no meaningful difference there between a hundred years and a million.
Not, I hasten to add, that anyone should feel obliged to consider Greyspace as Greyhawk canon, but I don't think generic 3e splatbooks should necessarily be forced into the setting either (Oh! There I go, arguing. Sorry!).
There. No resurrecting that again.
:P