On a side note, I am hoping that when Athas.org finishes their AB cleric conversion, the AB cleric will be at least slightly less powerful than a Dragon or an Avangion, to reflect the fact that one never hears about an AB Cleric throwing down with an SK.
Hmm...that maybe for reasons other than power. I think it was mentioned in Dragon Kings that Elemental Advanced Beings are at times summoned back to their elemental planes for political matters. They maybe a lot to do on the planes regarding the conflicts and an Elemental Lord duties may prohibit time spent on the material plane. Add to the fact that there probably aren't alot of AB elemental lords going around, and you got a reason for a lack of conflict.
Still, I think it would be interesting if an AB Elemental Lord ran a city of its own.
The way I run AB elemental characters in my game is slightly non-canonical. When a Cleric completes the transformation, he has his own permanent connection to their sponsor plane, and have no need to ask any other entity for their spell power, they recieve it directly through the Inner Plane their body and soul are bonded to. In my game, they are actually more potent than the elementals who once sponsored them and granted them their powers. I realize some other DMs may consider this to be heresy, but Iit fits better in my Athas.
No, that makes sense to my way of thinking as well. I was more thinking along the lines of that an AB would need to return to his home plane in order to protect it from encroachments from other planes. For example, Silt would always try to be gobbling up Earth and Water's territories, and Earth and Water would be trying to counter Silt.
The way I run AB elemental characters in my game is slightly non-canonical. When a Cleric completes the transformation, he has his own permanent connection to their sponsor plane, and have no need to ask any other entity for their spell power, they recieve it directly through the Inner Plane their body and soul are bonded to.
Not a bad idea, I was thinking about doing something similar. Having the AB Clerics of ages past actually be the elemental lords that sponser clerics and grant them their powers, though not all of them obviously.
Just out of curiousity, has anyone spent the time to detail the elemental courts at all? You seem to run a lot of high powered stuff like that in your game Terminus, how are the courts set up in your game?
I haven't run any campaigns in the Elemental planes of Athas, but it is conceivable that advanced beings (elementals) have migrated to them and that these characters could present themselves as elemental lords to the clerics of Athas, who would believe them to be gods.
To continue.. I like the elemental Prince thing.. I'd toss in a slight flare for words and culture with the elemental King types and the rest of the hierarchy's, like making a Sultan of Fire, with that type of culture, something Indian or Arabic, however you wish.. (toss in walking on coals for fun :P);
Earth could make a good King style Monarchy thing.. something stable, giving the princes duties at knighthood and Lordship.. Various Ranks.. Duke, etc..
Air would make a good tribal thing, like various loosely organized Air Elementals.. being their free spirited selves, they would follow a group leader.. and some of those group leaders would hearken to others.. but no serious or super formal thing would exist for all memebers.. "loosely" like the nomadic elven tribes... you coexist, but you don't have to follow strict guidelines and orders.. its more a, what you feel is best kinda thing.. you follow who you respect.. I think that fits their free spirited nature more.. so yeah, I'd toss them in as a tribal structure.. (roaming preferrably :P) and I'd toss one Chief of Chief's to loosely organize things.. (probably more a result of being at war than anything else.. his authority could even be mostly war related.. but over the centuries it could have evolved to a more political authoritative position)
I'm not sure off the top of my head what Water would be like.. something that fits their mentality.. I'll have to think on it more..
Ok, next thought.. What happens to Clerics when they die.. I think there are more than just two options here.. and it could be interesting to see the mythos of the groups reflect this.. Ok, thought one.. you serve well.. and your spirit goes to join the elemental Lords where you serve for eternity and bask in the element.. ( kind of an upside and down side.. up side, you're surrounded by your element.. downside.. you're still just a servant.. but a servant in heaven isn't so bad..) option two.. you were a faithless servant, or a discrace, so rather than call you home.. your soul goes to where the faithless go.. (the Gray) slowly to disolve and in a way be recycled... (the gray could be used as a sort of cosmological recycling bin.. for spirits.. reincarnation anyone?) whether it actually does this is up to the individual DM... ok, option 3.. you are extra faithful... and when you die.. your spirit is placed within a new body.. (old one still gets burried, burned, whatever) and that spirit of yours is now inside.. a drake, or other minor elemental creature that roams athas.. you enjoy the pleasures of your element on a daily basis, you are connected strongly with your plane... not a bad ending.. ("extreemly loosely" like coming back as a cow is a good thing in some eastern cultures.. if you consider them holy and all..)
Ok, so what happens when a Cleric dies?? You go home, you are rewarded with a new existence.. or you are of the faithless.. and without the energy of those elements, your soul withers and wastes away... (the Gray)..
Anyone like these ideas??
Tell me more!
I like the idea that there are options.. the Gray, mindless beast of an element (though I might allow them to migrate to Athas, no memory of the former life.. but perhaps who might guard an old temple or family member of the priest???) or the thought that they serve on the plane is good too.. options are good.. incentive to strive to promote the work of your patron..
Sage, I like your comments, you have a pleasant manner of writting (if that doesn't sound too flowery :P) and your ideas are intriguing.. Thanks for the input
Comments on the thoughts from the room please..
If they are lucky, the cleric gets an elemental burial. Rock burial, funeral pyre, watery grave, ashes to the wind.
And let's assume the various elements are sentient. Being dead helps the elements none; they are one less represented, so why would the cleric be rewarded with such powers? Seems to me like it'd be a waste of the element's energy. And given that they are dying on Athas; it's just not logical to waste their "life" power on the deceased like that.
Grim, but so is the world.
And let's assume the various elements are sentient. Being dead helps the elements none; they are one less represented, so why would the cleric be rewarded with such powers? Seems to me like it'd be a waste of the element's energy. And given that they are dying on Athas; it's just not logical to waste their "life" power on the deceased like that.
Hmm..I think they could still help their elements some, just in a diminished capacity. Just how, I am not quite so sure. Maybe they'd be like petitioners, whose belief strenghtens their plane, or something.
To continue.. I like the elemental Prince thing.. I'd toss in a slight flare for words and culture with the elemental King types and the rest of the hierarchy's, like making a Sultan of Fire, with that type of culture, something Indian or Arabic, however you wish.. (toss in walking on coals for fun :P);
One could go that route, but I tend to think that the mindsets of the Primals and ABs in charge of each plane are so far removed from those of humanoids that any culture they would have would not translate at all into concepts as we know them, hence the generic terms like King and Prince. The reason that the Elemental Courts in the Great Wheel cosmology at large have such titles is becase they are basically run by the various Genie races, who have cultures based on the Indian and Arabic ones in our world. Straight-up elementals have no such concepts, if I understand the scheme of things correctly, just a sort of Pecking Order, as in the biggest and most powerful tell all those weaker than themselves what to do, and are obeyed without question. While the humanoid minds of the ABs function differently than those of the regular Elementals, I feel the heirarchy should just follow the size/power scheme, , as only the King and Princes are ABs (in my game , anyway) would have any reason to think any other way, and they are at the top of the heap, telling the basically mindless elementals what to do. In other words, when there is only 2 tiers of the culture that would have any comprehension of what title and culture actually are, there would be no chance of a titular system developing. If you introduce Genies into your Athas, however, everything changes.
High-level clerics would likely come in at a higher level on the food chain, but not much. Epic level clerics are elementals, so are essentially immortal as it is.
Templars do not worship the planes, so go to the Gray.
Druids worship their chosen lands, so they are absorbed into them (provided someone is nice enough to kill them or bury them there). If they are not on their Guarded Lands when they die, well, to the Gray they go.
Everyone else? Gray.
That's my take, at least.
Good topic.
Also, as a tangent, what does the rest of the populace think happens after death. I certainly wouldn't expect any random slave, or even noble, to have any idea about the Gray. So where do they think they go?
As to the people, I would imagine the average person thinks of death in a positive way, given the fact that their lives are miserable and surrounded by such negativity twenty-four-seven. Death is where everybody is equal, where water is drawn from a magical fountain that never runs dry, where people smile and laugh and dance, where the world is green again; it's all a pipe dream. Another survival tactic used to keep from going insane, to justify the horrendous circumstances that surrounds them; a mirage. Athas has been abused, so Athas abuses.
Athas is grim indeed.
When an Elemental Cleric dies, does his soul go to the Grey to be absorbed like everyone else, or does he transmigrate to his plane of reverence?
Wow pretty deep, got to give that some thought. I would think that the elemental lords would want their faithful with them, possibly as new elementals or something new........ hmmmmm Elemental spirits or elemental ghosts kinda like how Tithian comes through the Cerulean storm, these Spirits would be able to communicate through their prospective elements. Gr8 point T.V.
Wow pretty deep, got to give that some thought. I would think that the elemental lords would want their faithful with them,
Nah ... I'd say that they go to the grey. The relationship between the Elementals and their followers is not like that of gods and clerics on other worlds. Elemental Lords are not divine, and they do not gain power from the number of worshippers they have.
The clerical agreement, in my mind, goes something like this: "If you agree to be my tool on the material plane, I will grant you great power. If you stray, or **** me off, I'll not hesitate in stripping that power from you."
This is not a loving relationship; it's an alliance for mutual gain -- with a clear upper partner. And a dead cleric no longer serves the elemental's needs on athas.
Nah ... I'd say that they go to the grey. The relationship between the Elementals and their followers is not like that of gods and clerics on other worlds. Elemental Lords are not divine, and they do not gain power from the number of worshippers they have.
The clerical agreement, in my mind, goes something like this: "If you agree to be my tool on the material plane, I will grant you great power. If you stray, or **** me off, I'll not hesitate in stripping that power from you."
This is not a loving relationship; it's an alliance for mutual gain -- with a clear upper partner. And a dead cleric no longer serves the elemental's needs on athas.
I see what you mean, but I think it would still benefit the element for clerics to go to the elemental planes when they die, if only to increase the number of elementals on the planes. More elementals = more strength for the plane.
More elementals = more strength for the plane.
Isn't the plane the elemental?
Again, assuming the Element actually is sentient...
The plane (the Element) exists, and will always exist, and that's not what concerns the element. What concerns the element (and for reasons known only to it) is its fading existence on the prime material plane that is Athas, and more importantly the fact that it is dying there. And to keep "alive" it needs the help from a few of its inhabitants: the clerics.
Like flip said, this relationship is a neat little trade-off for the Element: it grants some no-name powers beyond their wildest dreams, in return for continued existence. The key here is self-preservation; the Element's best alternative to a negotiated agreement. And the element only grants these powers with that in mind. It doesn't care if you live or die, as long as you help continue to nourish its life force on Athas. And to waste that precious life force to satiate the ego of mere mortals?
Not bloody likely.
This is how I like to think anyway.
Then I start to think that by recycling its power through mortal existence, the element is better able to keep their cleric dedicated to furthering its cause; maintaining its life force on Athas.
An undead cleric, as they grow through the centuries, would inevitably start to grow bored with their chosen path, and want to take on new ventures. "Man, I got nothing but time; maybe I'll become the next champion of the arena. Hell, why stop there? I'll become the world's most feared warrior and destroy all who stand in my way. Then, then I can rule my own city..."
Absolute power (immortality) corrupts absolutely. In game terms, it is very likely for that immortalized character to go through every alignment detailed in the Player's Handbook. And by doing that, they become less and less dedicated to their element, who just happens to be powerless to stop them. The worst an element can do is take away the power that they gave.
And then there is the question of the Negative Energy Plane and both its influence on the character (who is also possessed by the Element), and its relationship with the Element. One is natural on and within the Prime Material, one is not.
Mind-boggling, hey?
All the same, it would make for an interesting character concept, them being torn between the forces possessing their bodies. :D
Giving doses of their power in a mortal sense is easier as it becomes a more manageable cycle. Life, Growth, Death, Rebirth. The power will be less likely taken for granted under this "scrutiny", and the element can further their cause by appealing to generations, simply through the disguise of their powers being granted to the "chosen one". Also, individual potential becomes a factor. Its recycled power just might be more effective put in another's hands.
I don't know if this make any sense outside of my head, it does inside. :D
My two bits.
I think I'd go with option 2. It seems like everything, even preservers and psions, power their "power" with life. With psions, it comes from within. With magic users, it comes from without. Why should the elements be any different? Maybe the Lords grow in strength by "sucking in" the lifeforce of their followers. It's the greatest honor for a cleric to become one with their element and that's exactly what happens. Particularly creative or powerful characters would likely be allowed to retain some measure of individuality, since that greater serves their Lord.
"Go to the light, Carol Ann!"
Isn't the plane the elemental?
Again, assuming the Element actually is sentient...
Not as I see it. I see the elementals residing on the plane, and being the defenders of said plane
The plane (the Element) exists, and will always exist, and that's not what concerns the element. What concerns the element (and for reasons known only to it) is its fading existence on the prime material plane that is Athas, and more importantly the fact that it is dying there. And to keep "alive" it needs the help from a few of its inhabitants: the clerics.
Hmm..I've always seen it as the elementals constantly waging war with each other. If one side were to gain complete supremacy over another, say due to conditions on Athas, an entire element could vanish completely. To say that the element isn't affected by what happens on Athas makes no sense to me. Why should they care what happens on Athas then? Or why would they feel threatened by the power of the paraelementals? Not at all, unless the elements were also threatened by what happens on Athas. And, if I remember correctly, this was the view EAFW book was presenting.
Like flip said, this relationship is a neat little trade-off for the Element: it grants some no-name powers beyond their wildest dreams, in return for continued existence. The key here is self-preservation; the Element's best alternative to a negotiated agreement. And the element only grants these powers with that in mind. It doesn't care if you live or die, as long as you help continue to nourish its life force on Athas. And to waste that precious life force to satiate the ego of mere mortals?
I see your point, but its not to satiate the ego of some mere mortal, its to add to the troops defending the plane from the other elemental planes.
I see your point, but its not to satiate the ego of some mere mortal, its to add to the troops defending the plane from the other elemental planes.
Bingo.
And I do have to admit that I'm not all that keen on elements being sentient in the first place.
It is my belief that the cleric draws upon the existing element as a wizard draws on magic. The power is gathered and taken mostly from the planet (as opposed to another plane), sculpted, and then let loose in whatever its new form may be. Elemental planes and all that jazz just seems too...I don't have the words. heh
Certain elements (of Athas) take more focus and are thus harder to gather, such as Water, Void, and depending, Wind. This is because those elements are not as accessible as Fire and Earth. Fire is called from the sun not Athas, and Earth being called from pretty much everywhere. Of course, when a cleric is close to "their" element (Last Sea, windswept mountains, underground, etc), draw time becomes that much easier, faster.
Obviously, the same problem that faces defilers and preservers face these clerics, for the life force of Athas is being used and abused in a rather unnatural manner. In other words, there is no difference between arcane magic and elemental magic; it's just Athas' blood, so to speak. And this "magic" (read: abuse) is the true bane of Athas, which is why the S-K crew gotta be put down. They were the ones who mainstreamed, and continue to mainstream this abuse.
For Athas to survive, magic has to be forgotten.
Just one of my many views of the world...
Really interesting thread.
Good counter points.
And I do have to admit that I'm not all that keen on elements being sentient in the first place.
It is my belief that the cleric draws upon the existing element as a wizard draws on magic. The power is gathered and taken mostly from the planet (as opposed to another plane), sculpted, and then let loose in whatever its new form may be. Elemental planes and all that jazz just seems too...I don't have the words. heh
Certain elements (of Athas) take more focus and are thus harder to gather, such as Water, Void, and depending, Wind. This is because those elements are not as accessible as Fire and Earth. Fire is called from the sun not Athas, and Earth being called from pretty much everywhere. Of course, when a cleric is close to "their" element (Last Sea, windswept mountains, underground, etc), draw time becomes that much easier, faster.
Obviously, the same problem that faces defilers and preservers face these clerics, for the life force of Athas is being used and abused in a rather unnatural manner. In other words, there is no difference between arcane magic and elemental magic; it's just Athas' blood, so to speak. And this "magic" (read: abuse) is the true bane of Athas, which is why the S-K crew gotta be put down. They were the ones who mainstreamed, and continue to mainstream this abuse.
Hmm..I've been thinking about that too. Basically, I think it boils down to whether or not you think energy in Athas can be destroyed.
Does drinking water consume water elemental energy? Does planting crops consume earth elemental energy?
Because the entire Athasian world, planes and all don't seem to be getting any -new- energy, if energy is used up, whether in small amount by people moving and breathing and eating, or in large amounts by spellcasters casting spells, and thereby consumned, than Athas is doomed, no matter what happens because Athas is eventually going to run out of energy, and suffer some sort of heat-death.
On the other hand, if energy on Athas cannot be destroyed, only changed, than there is still hope. There maybe processes in place that -recycle- energy, eventually returning them to their original forms.
But then again, Athas is fiction. It maybe possible to create, destroy and change energy.
Guess its really up to the DM,
Interesting thread BTW. Really enjoying this.
Athas can get back to its scheduled routine, but only if and when its cancer has been removed. Magic, the ability to manipulate the planet's life force in order to power the intentions of its new and foreign possessor, has to once more become esoteric. There's just too many people using/abusing at the same time. And if things don't change, Athas is doomed.
But as has been said, it's all up to the GM. Obviously.
Another thing; while the elemental lords do not gain power from their followers directly they can gain in power from their actions, just as the Spirit of the land can. The more faithfull followers an element has doing its business in the world and spreading the influence of said element, the more element food is produced (I know thats not the right term, but read up in Earth, Air, Fire, Water and you'll get the idea).
Even though there may be no true Gods in DS, Clerics are still the representatives of a higher power and the source of true religion in the setting, such that it is.
Good counter points.
It is my belief that the cleric draws upon the existing element as a wizard draws on magic. The power is gathered and taken mostly from the planet (as opposed to another plane), sculpted, and then let loose in whatever its new form may be. Elemental planes and all that jazz just seems too...I don't have the words. heh
Certain elements (of Athas) take more focus and are thus harder to gather, such as Water, Void, and depending, Wind. This is because those elements are not as accessible as Fire and Earth. Fire is called from the sun not Athas, and Earth being called from pretty much everywhere. Of course, when a cleric is close to "their" element (Last Sea, windswept mountains, underground, etc), draw time becomes that much easier, faster.
Obviously, the same problem that faces defilers and preservers face these clerics, for the life force of Athas is being used and abused in a rather unnatural manner. In other words, there is no difference between arcane magic and elemental magic; it's just Athas' blood, so to speak. And this "magic" (read: abuse) is the true bane of Athas, which is why the S-K crew gotta be put down. They were the ones who mainstreamed, and continue to mainstream this abuse.
For Athas to survive, magic has to be forgotten.
Just one of my many views of the world...
Really interesting thread.
Clerical Magic definately comes from the inner planes. In the 2nd Ed material they even had the ability to directly gate material from their elemental plane. :P
Clerical Magic definately comes from the inner planes. In the 2nd Ed material they even had the ability to directly gate material from their elemental plane. :P
I'm not bound by what's in print. Never was, either. ;) :D
I like to think that drinking water, crops, and everything in between is normal consumption of the planet's energy, and as such it falls within certain safety parameters. And normally the planet would replenish that energy, those elements of it, but because there are people manipulating its life force left right and center, the planet has been acting in an abnormal manner, "forgetting" the energy recycling process.
Athas can get back to its scheduled routine, but only if and when its cancer has been removed. Magic, the ability to manipulate the planet's life force in order to power the intentions of its new and foreign possessor, has to once more become esoteric. There's just too many people using/abusing at the same time. And if things don't change, Athas is doomed.
But as has been said, it's all up to the GM. Obviously.
Very interesting, this is the way I also see it. Perhaps though magic (defiling) by itself is not the only problem. I tend to believe that the elemental vortices that tap into the elemental planes have somthing to do with the unbalancing of the elements , which reflects upon Athas. Imo, the living vortices are drawing energy from the prime elemental planes (Air, Earth, Fire, and Water) which has allowed the paraelements to expand their influence.
According to my view, the Sorcerer Monarchs contribute alot to the problem. Killing a SM, doesn't destroy the living vortices either it just disconnects them from each other. Perhaps only Raajat knows how to destroy these vortices.
Very interesting, this is the way I also see it. Perhaps though magic (defiling) by itself is not the only problem. I tend to believe that the elemental vortices that tap into the elemental planes have somthing to do with the unbalancing of the elements , which reflects upon Athas. Imo, the living vortices are drawing energy from the prime elemental planes (Air, Earth, Fire, and Water) which has allowed the paraelements to expand their influence.
I think what has allowed the Paraelements to thrive is that they're probably more resistant to defiling than regular elements. Thats their edge. When plants take nourishment, they take in small quantities of the elements. A little earth, a little water, a little air, and a little water. When they're turned to ash, those elements are destroyed. However, plants don't take in paraelements as nourishment, so their not subject to defiling.
I think what has allowed the Paraelements to thrive is that they're probably more resistant to defiling than regular elements. Thats their edge. When plants take nourishment, they take in small quantities of the elements. A little earth, a little water, a little air, and a little water. When they're turned to ash, those elements are destroyed. However, plants don't take in paraelements as nourishment, so their not subject to defiling.
In some cases I would agree, but I always thought that defiling magic used life energy not elemental energy. The defiling process might destroy the element part of the plant but it is a very small amount of the pure element (most of it being water and proteins). That may have some kind of effect on the elemental planes, but how much? Rain seems to be a nourishing paraelement while also being destructive at the same time (this paraelement may be too ridiculous for me to ponder upon).
Sorry, I guess I don't believe that defiling magic is the leading cause of the elemental planes unbalancing. I see it as a lesser force that helps move the planes even further along the path of unbalance and destruction. Imo, defiling magic can be seen scarring the world and that is what is blamed, by everyone including the elemental clerics. I don't think the elements know much about the living vortices sucking the energy from their planes. And its possible that they just know that it was magic created by defilers at one time and the clerics may know defiling magics potential to harm the elements.
These are all just ideas and how I view it. Its a nice tangent from the original topic though.
Very interesting, this is the way I also see it. Perhaps though magic (defiling) by itself is not the only problem. I tend to believe that the elemental vortices that tap into the elemental planes have somthing to do with the unbalancing of the elements , which reflects upon Athas. Imo, the living vortices are drawing energy from the prime elemental planes (Air, Earth, Fire, and Water) which has allowed the paraelements to expand their influence.
According to my view, the Sorcerer Monarchs contribute alot to the problem. Killing a SM, doesn't destroy the living vortices either it just disconnects them from each other. Perhaps only Raajat knows how to destroy these vortices.
Even if the Vortex's are causing a problem, and they may be slightly.. if there is no SK to transfer the power to a templar.. what harm are they???
It seems like everything, even preservers and psions, power their "power" with life. With psions, it comes from within. With magic users, it comes from without. Why should the elements be any different?
I'd go strongly against that. If life energy is the "power" that fuels arcane spells, elemental energy is the "power" that fuels divine spells.
Just like the Gray and Black energies are not life energy, they can still fuel spells, so there's a precedent for non-life energy used as spell fuel.
Just like the Gray and Black energies are not life energy, they can still fuel spells, so there's a precedent for non-life energy used as spell fuel.
Not canonically, but I'll bend - whatever works in your campaign.
Even if the Vortex's are causing a problem, and they may be slightly.. if there is no SK to transfer the power to a templar.. what harm are they???
The living vortices are a topic that has been highly debated and their details have been mostly theories. As any DM wishes to desribe the vague details within their campaign (mostly because there is room to use the imagination) I have devoleped the living vortices further for my own campaign.
In my Darksun, when the living vortices were created they latched unto the Elemental planes (Fire, Air, Water, Earth). The living vortices need a continual amount of elemental energy to thrive. When each vortex was created it was smaller in size and over time began to grow, feeding off the Elemental planes until they have reached their fullsize. At their full size they have become dormant, constantly churning and reusing the stolen energy to sustain itself. According to my view, the vortices are living parasites that draw the energy they need to exist. They steal elemental energy and convert it into divine energy upon which it can sustain itself indefinately.
(In my campaign) when the Sorcerer Monarch's were attached to the living vortices they could draw power directly from it. The energy the Sm's stole was the divine energy that the living vortice used and reused to sustain itself. When the living vortice feels insufficent in its divine energy reservores, it begans feeding upon the Elemental Plane it is attached to once again. According to my view, the Sm's are parisites that are attached to even larger parasites!
The way I have detailed the living vortices on the Elemental planes (where they connect and how they manifest themselves on that plane), they look like incredibly immense tornadoes that appear (from the outside) to be made up of the element of the plane they are stealing from (and residing on). A living vortice on the elemental plane of fire will look like an immense fire cyclone, which sucks in any element and elemental that it contacts, then converts it into useable divine energy. A vortice on the Elemental plane of Earth looks more like a tornado comprised of rocks and debris. This vortice can move deeper within the elemental plane of Earth, when this happens it appears to be an undertow spinning, and swallowing earth.
Because these Vortices are made up of the Elemental planes they look more like a natural occurance (magnified 300 fold). The Elemental lords know they are a problem (because they suck up troops and other structures).They will do nothing, because they believe that the "Elemental Votices" are part of the planes will, and those that get sucked into it will be recycled back into the pure element (wrong!).
(More explanation of my point of view)
Before the living vortices were created, the Elemental Planes (Fire, Air, Earth, Water,) were superior to the Paraelemental planes and controlled more "territory". After magic was created, and sometime prior to, or during, the Cleansing wars, the living vortices were developed or created. Over time they grew as they drained the energy from the Elemental Planes. This has caused the Elemental territories to shrink while allowing the Paraelement territories to expand.
In addition to all of this, the Defilers abuse on Athas are deepening the problems. Sorcerer Monarchs continue to grantspells to their Templars, keeping "their" living vortices hungry.
If all of these factors that hindered the Elements were eliminated, things would once again find balance.(The living vortices are made up of stolen Elemental Plane, when they are destroyed they will return part of the plane back to where it belongs).
(These are all my own developments for my own campaign. I am explaining them to help express my own point of view. These are not posted here to impose my ideas upon other Darksun fans.)
(Its the only icon I know!) !I don't get it Dawn. Can you explain to me how Gray and Black energy is actual life energy, or how their use is non-canonical, because you're statement is rather vague.
The "fueling spells" bit is the part I have a problem with. Eh, sorry - bored with this conversation: had it too many times in the past few years. Do what works for your campaign and if it's fun, keep doing it.
the Gray and Black energies are not life energy
The Black (Void, Shade, whatever you like to call it) is as much of an element of Athas as any other for the simple fact that night exists. It may be atmospheric in origin, but its effects exist on the planet's surface. And all combined elements of Athas obviously equals its life force. And that makes it life energy.
And the Grey? That element exists only in the minds of Athasians. ;)
The "magic" drawn from the Grey is psionic power drawn from the heart and mind, but commonly mistaken for Athas-drawn.
Again, this is Athas as I imagine it.
If you don't care about "fueling" spells, use another concept, but in the end there is no arcane spells unless you use life energy, or Gray and Black energies (and those last two seem not to be life energy because they...well, are not alive), and that concept I care about.
EDIT: I'm sorry if my answer is a bit confrontional - yet polite -, its that comments like "works for your campaign" kinda get under my skin if I believe that that original statement of mine that generated your comment was canon.
That's all
That's how the grey works for arcane casters.. (how the black works I don't know :P)
So that's one reason I'd go for reincarnation on Athas most of all.. speeds up the recycling process.. and ressurection prevents it.. brings it back before it moves on..
Ok, now I know this isn't online with the thread.. but... on the black.. any way that my previous theory could incorporate casters that utilize the black too?? (the sun is supposed to be a source of energy.. is that why the black is too??)
So that's one reason I'd go for reincarnation on Athas most of all.. speeds up the recycling process.. and ressurection prevents it.. brings it back before it moves on..
Ok, now I know this isn't online with the thread.. but... on the black.. any way that my previous theory could incorporate casters that utilize the black too?? (the sun is supposed to be a source of energy.. is that why the black is too??)
If different parts of the spirit goes to different planes, Elemental planes and the Grey, what if the darker more negatve aspect of the spirit goes to the black? This life energy or a perverted shadow of life energy goes here to purify the spirit before it is recycled.
is it possible light and shadow have their own life?? or one being life and one being anti life?? or something?? two sides of the same coin? just another balance??
(if evil went to the black, then how would an evil or good elemental clerics actions be just as beneficial to the plane? unless the good or badness didn't matter)
It is the user's/abuser's intentions that runs the gamut of morality, as Lyric suggested.
IMC.
Also, Evil may grow in the dark, but it lives in the Light. ;)
so the black is a source of evil? and syphoning it off does what to evil?? promote it? remove it?? I prefer to think of the life energies as neutral, and the uses its put towards as good or bad.. with the elemental energies having a taint or energy mix or something to them..
is it possible light and shadow have their own life?? or one being life and one being anti life?? or something?? two sides of the same coin? just another balance??
(if evil went to the black, then how would an evil or good elemental clerics actions be just as beneficial to the plane? unless the good or badness didn't matter)
I like to think that shadow is an element of its own, but not in the same catagory as the Elements (Fire,Water,Air,Earth). Shadow is an elusive material that exists and yet doesn't. An illusion, but yet very real. Since Elements can have life (Elementals), shadows could also have life. By going along these lines it could be safe to say that light could be placed in the same catagory.....however light doesn't have it's own plane of existance which both shadow and elements alike have (unless you count in the quasi plane of radience,then perhaps they do).
The Elements themselves don't care about good or evil they just want their element promoted. So an evil fire cleric that spreads his love around burning up the place may not bother the fire Elemental lords unless these actions would in some way hinder that elements influence on that plane.
Here's an idea of the purification process. An Athasian dies, his spirit (complete with memories and emotions) goes to the grey. After some time the spirit breaks down, memory fades. The spirit breaks down into three aspects: psyche, ego, and pure energy. Psyche (pardon the terms had to lablel them in some way) is the memories and emotions which get seperated and lost in the grey eventually becoming part of it. Ego is the negative force of personality (the darkside of humanity,whatever) that helps with survival, unfortunately it can be cultivated in life through evil actions done to or done by the individual. This force is seperated in the purification process and is sent to the black. Pure energy is the untainted life force that is recycled, it goes to new life, element, and ect.
Hope I explained that one clearly!
